Counting Shadows

[Spoken Word]

-I've been looking for an answer on many threads, but haven't found it. If this goes somewhere else, please move it and if it's been answered already, please show me link. Thanks-

Ok. I've noticed it since my first PT.
I've tried to figure it out since then but it's hard for me cause I've never lvld nin. I haven't even started the adv quest.. But I plan on lvling thf, mnk and war to 37 so when I start my adv jobs i can just level them as I see fit. At least, that's my plan. Also because I need a lot of gil to uprgade my war and mnk gear(29war/27mnk), so I decided to lvl thf, use the gear I have and profit from the better drops thf gets.... does that make sense?

Anyways, back to the topic..... I know when I lvl nin, I'll understand utsemi(sp?) better and I'll be able to count shadows and voke fast so nin can cast and tank again......
Ppl tell me not to sweat it but I like to be the most productive I can.
So I'd like to know, if they're is a specific way to count shadows or what to look for so I know when shadows are down.
and if its better(and/or faster) to voke on first shadow.. or wait til shadows down..


Just figuring our how to serve pt's better in the future. Any help is appreciated.

[Feba]

read the chatlog...

[Nazo]

You're talking about when someone else is blink tanking and you're secondary tank right? I wouldn't worry too much about counting someone else shadows, often they will have a macro that tells you in party chat when their shadows are down. If not, when they get hit you know they're down.

[Sevv]

When you are tanking Filter everything but /p and /l. Then make sure you have attacks you evade, damage you take w/o filters on it will be easy to coutn shadows. Ichi is 3 shadows and Ni is 4 when you war main job nin (all other jobs 3 shadows for both). For when you are on your war and voking for cast timer its best used when you see the nin get hit, (imo i couldnt stand counting someone elses shadows.) And after lvl 37 Ninja's will have Ni and you would only voke when they ask/need it.

[Spoken Word]

Read the chatlog??. :huh: lemme guess, I can turn the game off too. Or maybe "Change jobs, newb":rolleyes:

And thank you sevifrit and nazo, that's what I've been doing.
But after being called a noob and being yelled at cause nin gets hit once, and usually doesn't have a macro.... I've accuired the need to know when the freakin shadows are low so no one has to call me out and piss me off..
But most importantly to speed up the xp rate and just be productive..

But like I said, a lot of the people I've met and befriended tell me that it isn't really improtant cause the nin will just ask.. I've also noticed that every nin "absorbs damage with shadow" three times then starts getting hurt..

thanks anyway, I was just wondering if there were other ways to know or a general way of knowing that I was missing.

Hopefully, later on I'll have more meaningful inquiries that won't attract the typical, I-net humor.

[neokaril]

That's what he means by read the chat log, three shadows then damage so you use that for timing purposes.

[Sevv]

its not the responsiblity of alerting the party the ninja has no shadows, usually just be ready about the 3rd round of attacks for the need to voke, - mandys they will hit a nin on the second round. the lower levels are annoying ethier way just keep on going and gl (^.^)b

[Spoken Word]

Ok, maybe I misunderstood him. I read the chatlog everyday lol

Honestly, I was just looking for the exact number of shadows that the spell gives you.

Thanks to everyone.

[Macht]

Well like it was stated:

NIN main: Ichi = 3 shadows and Ni =4 shadows
NIN sub: Ichi = 3 shadows and Ni = 3 shadows

Don't get a message saying it's down, the only other way of knowing would probably be to cheat. Though with SE's recent efforts may not be the best idea. I'm not one to support cheating so I won't mention the details of how.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Font Color >> For Self >> Actions you evade >> whatever color that stands out to you, i use hot pink

I found this extremely useful for counting shadows as NIN and /NIN.

Font Color >> For Others >> Ally gains beneficial effect >> whatever color stands out to you, I use bright orange.

I know this says "ally" but this alteration also lets you spot enemy status boosts.

This is useful for spotting those annoying Defense Boosts monsters do, when that happens use a dispel or plant an acid bolt in it.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

If you see blood spurting out of your "blink tank", that's a healthy sign that they need a backup voke.

Don't wait for them to spam a macro to /p chat that says, "{Provoke} {Please} {Help me out!} <call1>". Relying on that would just be encouraging use of such macros. And we want to discourage that.

[Sevv]

Don't get a message saying it's down, the only other way of knowing would probably be to cheat.


depending on how your shadows are taken away sometime you do get a message they are gone.

to the op again just watch for the 3rd round on everything but monk mobs at the low level, or for -ga spells

[Theyaden]

If you see blood spurting out of your "blink tank", that's a healthy sign that they need a backup voke.

Don't wait for them to spam a macro to /p chat that says, "{Provoke} {Please} {Help me out!} <call1>". Relying on that would just be encouraging use of such macros. And we want to discourage that.

Personally I consider it lazy for a ninja not to have a macro for shadows down in lower level parties. (I've never run into one adding a <call> to it thankfully that would get annoying) If your partner is catching it without being told thats great, but otherwise it's just like anouncing tp to time a skillchain nothing wrong wiht /p chat designed to keep things running smoothly.

[Aeolus]

Theres no need to filter everything. I only have filtered others atks etc so I only see PT and alliance dmg spells etc. Turning the colour of the Shadows text to really bright red helps alot. I still talk away like normal while tanking and havnt died yet so Id say not to sweat it.

[Feba]

I wouldn't worry too much about counting someone else shadows,Yes, just what FFXI PTs need, more annoying macro spam, more ear damaging calls, just because people can't be bothered to count to three.

And yes, I was very serious in my suggestion. There is no reason you shouldn't be able to voke off immediately after the third hit if you're paying attention to the chatlog. Worst case scenario, you miss a message, you still probably voke out of instinct, or the ninja takes a single hit. Usually not that bad.

[Spoken Word]

Thanks to everyone, and forgive my defensive nature, I'm just tired of stuck-up elitists(sp) that think they are the next coming of Christ. lol I'm not saying you're one of them, but I got the impression you might be.....Not anymore :P
Hopefully, I don't encounter those types of players anywhere else except in game.

Thanks, again.

Yea, I figured that depending on the nin's macro(like a lot of in-game ppl suggested) would be mediocre(sp??) and besides, I want to get far and learning these things early will help in later pt's. I know it might be trivial to upper levels but to me it seems something useful to know as a main WAR since from what i've gathered nin is the "uber" tank:rolleyes:

Next question, is there a macro I can make to show party how much time is left for my provoke?
Cause I do a good job in keeping hate, and I have a little stagety which is to turn the mob around so if any other PT member takes hate off me, I notice cause the mob turns around so I voke, and keep it attention...i dunno if that made any sense......lmao

BUT sometimes they get the mobs hate and I still have 25 secs left for voke so i get something like this

***mob starts turning***
***Mage starts running***
<Mage>VOKE
<me>I got 25 secs left
<Mage>VOKE!!!!!!
<Me>I cant!
<2ndMage>WAR VOKE ITS YOUR JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<Me> I got 10 secs left

etc.

I have never lost my patience with anyone in this game cause it would be dangerous to myself or anyone around me but GOLLY some people in this game are So0o0o incomprehensible or just plain ignorant.....
Maybe arrogant too :P

[Feba]

I'm not saying you're one of them, but I got the impression you might be.....Not anymoreOh no, I am, ask anyone around here, I was just being serious this time.

[Nazo]

There shouldn't be any need to voke off the ninja after only 3 hits as they should be recasting it after they lose a couple to provide 6 continuous shadows, if they aren't then they aren't doing their job right. Depending on the timing it can be tricky to judge whether the hit took a shadow from the previous 3 or the newly cast 3.

There really isn't going to be a great deal of difference at your levels between the nin getting hit and you getting hit. In my opinion voking after he takes a single hit is entirely acceptable. In my experience of levelling Ninja up to 37 I never once had a party in which someone pre-emptively voked off me before I got hit, nor did I have any expectation that they would.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

There shouldn't be any need to voke off the ninja after only 3 hits as they should be recasting it after they lose a couple to provide 6 continuous shadows, if they aren't then they aren't doing their job right.
But that's only for the beginning of the fight. After those first 6 shadows, a pre-Ni NIN won't be able to cast Utsusemi back-to-back like that. Most fights would last long enough for the NIN to use 6 shadows, have Ichi cool down, get shadows back up, and tank the mob again for 3 shadows.

[Sevv]

you can do a macro that everyone uses

/Ja "Provoke" <t>
/p Provoke >>> <t> Just used it
/wait 15
/p Provoke @15
/wait 15
/p Provoke Ready!

btw i hate this i just have a /recast macro

for my war Ie
/recast "Berserk"
/recast "Aggerosser"
/recast "Warcry"
/recast "Provoke"

[neokaril]

IMO if your recast on voke still has 30sec left and you have a mage screaming for a VOKE, your mage is not doing his/her part. Hate management is not just a concern of the WAR TAnks and DD's but also the casters, you can't sit there and spam Cure II's or cure III's and you can't spam nukes either, hate management is everyones responsibility.

Those mages screaming for vokes almost directly after you have used it need to watch hits and manage hate with spell usage. If he is having to spam cures to keep people alive, then you either have to find a way for your DD's/Tanks to do more damage or step down in mobs, or add an adidtional voker, or time spells with a SATA spike,, something creative.

[Hankthetank]

A little tip I learned in regards to counting shadows.

Count down. Its sounds silly, but its very helpful should you level Ninja.

Because Ichi and Ni for a Nin main have different amounts of Shadows, a Nin main would need to keep track of how many shadows are left depending on which spell was cast.

Since I originally leveled Nin as a sub I never got to used to Ni having 4 shadows as a result I just started Counting as shadows got taken.

Old Hank:
Mob attacks me
..1 shadow taken
Mob attacks again
..2 shadows taken
Mob attacks again
..3, Shadows down start casing Ni

When I returned to Nin, this caused a few headaches.

Mob attacks me
..1
Mob attacks again
..2
Mob attacks again
..3 Uh-oh is this Ichi or Ni? This my last shadow or do I have one more?

It's not a major thing, but I found its alot easier if you count down instead of up.

Cast ichi start with 3
Cast Ni start with 4

Mob attacks me
..2 shadows left
Mob attacks again
..1 shadow left
Mob attacks again
..0, Shadows down start casing Ni

It sounds silly, and it's a rather mute point for a non-nin since you always get three shadows, but as someone who had to try and to reverse the order he counts shadows, I wish I whould have started off counting down instead of up.

Sincerely,
Hankthetank

[LyonheartLakshmi]

A little tip I learned in regards to counting shadows.

Count down. Its sounds silly, but its very helpful should you level Ninja.
Interesting. I don't think I've ever heard anyone put it that way.

Your suggestion made me think about the way I "count" my shadows. I think I've been "counting down" in practice, though I've never tanked with Ni as NIN (I stopped NIN at 37, and got Ni a while after that) and I've never thought of it in that sense. Mentally, I find myself thinking "I have full shadows", "I have 2 shadows left", or "I only have 1 shadow left". I suppose when I pick up NIN again, I'll find myself thinking "I have 3 shadows left", which will feel a little awkward at first.

[Celeal]

IMHO, it is situational: It depends on the tank's skill, mob and party support. Things get ugly when the blink tank is interrupted while casting shadows. It may get out of control if the main-blink tank is interrupted multiple times in a row.

As a backup tank, besides counting your main tank's shadows, you may also aware of casting interrupted message from your blink tank (for all Ninjtisu casting, including those enfeeables from NIN). It is because party's help is critical when the blink tank is not able to renew his shadows.

Counting your main-blink tank's shadows (from a backup tank point of view) helps, but you have to aware that sometimes your NIN maybe able to evade the mob's attack without shadows (with enough evasion, debuff, and luck), or the mob randomly double attacks, attack->WS->attack back-to-back, multi-hit attacks, Aoe... load of stuff that can screw up counting if you are not alert.

Watching the blink-tank's HP helps too, but you should as aware that some mob's attack ignores (go-thru) shadows without dropping the shadows, such as Goblin's Bomb Toss or Crawler's Fan-shape breath attack, etc.

From my experience, watch out your blink-tank's "casting interrupted" message and support accordingly (back-up provoke, stun, etc) is easier for new players.

[Amele]

Echoing Celeal:

speaking as a lower level blink tank (and backup blink tank, as is the case with many jobs pre-30) one of the most frustrating things is when someone who doesn't have any shadows provokes a mob off me while I still have shadows up (or just finished a recast successfully) - this is especially frustrating when the person who voked is also a nin or /nin whose shadows are down (and should instead have been recasting themselves if possible).

many of the players with shadows will have capped evasion (and often capped parry) if not merits / elite gear etc. and will often be able to evade several rounds without shadows, so wait at least until you see them take a hit and use your judgment to decide if you think they will have shadows up again soon - if they're only going to get hit once or twice, then it's often better *not* to voke.

[Deeke]

/eek

I've just soloed my NIN to a few hundred exp away from 15. Soon I'm gonna get tooled up, kill a few sheepies, read all my scrolls and make my way to the Dunes.

And the whole issue of do I use a Please Provoke macro has been irking me. I don't want to but I suspect I'd need to. Is it bad of me to have so little faith?

(I suspect the answer is, of course, 'no' :) )

[Feba]

A "Provoke!" macro probably isn't a bad idea, but only use it if your backup hasn't voked after you've been hit four or five times.

Personally, I recommend:
/party <call1> [Name of backup voke], YOU NEED TO PROVOKE NOW YOU STUPID NAB.
/party I SWEAR TO GOD, STOP STARING AT [Name of mage/mithra] AND VOKE NOW
/party FFXI WAS MEANT TO BE PLAYED WITH BOTH HANDS ON THE CONTROLLER, IDIOT.

Of course, if you're playing FFXI for the social aspects, this might not end well.

[Deeke]

Egh.. social-shmocial.

If I were playing FFXI for social aspects, I'd be soloing my scrawny arse to 20 :P