Pulling Politely (No, really...)

[Eiyoko]

I'm sure we've all had this happen in some form or another. There's either another party around or a BST in the hunting grounds you're at and...yeah, I think you know what usually comes next.

NOTE: I will not specify the race/job class of anyone mentioned here if there is no need. I don't want to seem like I'm hating on anyone. Besides, if you're going to be mad at someone be mad at the player, not the race or job class. *ducks*

I was pulling in the Crawler's Nest not long ago as my Corsair. One of the people in my party asked the Bard to pull. When I asked him why, he said I was not as good of a puller as a Bard was because I couldn't sleep four mobs at once.
(Eiyoko) Um...why would I need to?
(person) lol thats how brd pulls
(Eiyoko) ...
I think you get the drift here. Maybe it's just me, or maybe that guy is being an idiot about pulling.

I don't mind Bards at all. Really, they are valuable party members as far as I can see (I don't often party with them so I can't really say, sorry! x.X). But if you ask me, WHY would they need to sleep four monsters, specifically in the 40's? That's not pulling, guys. That's hoarding the prey. And it's being unfair to others in the area. That other party wants EXP, too! And yes, so does the BST. And who knows, you might end up in THEIR party one day. Competition is one thing, greed is completely different.

Be nice to others and they will be nice to you.

Whoa, check it out. There's a BST exping in your vincity. So some people get mad at him for "stealing all the mobs."

I wouldn't do that if I were you. (Unless he's doing it to be mean, that's a story for another time. No offense, anyone.)

Way, way, WAAAAAAAY back in the day, before mobs despawned when you zoned them (Yeah, way before that), I was leveling my Dragoon in the basement of Garlaige. So the puller comes back and doesn't notice he has a link. Uh-oh.

Then a BST comes up and charms the extra mob. Woot!

See? Not so bad.

When I had entered the basement beforehand, I had aggro'd a beetle. That same BST had charmed the beetle off of me. Yay!

Now, what if there's another party in your area? Let's say you get a link. Wouldn't it be nice if they pulled your link off of you? I know I'd like if that happened. Think about it for a sec. Instead of competition, have you ever seen link control when there's another party nearby? I know I have.

Just some food for thought. *hides*

[Mhurron]

There's a Pet Peeve thread over there --->

Oh and yes, that is how BRD's pull at high levels.

[Spiritbear]

I'm a Bst and I solo as well as pt with my static as a Bst. I am the link control in my party and if I happen to be soloing in an area I will chat with the parties and offer to help with links if they will try to stay away from my pets. I don't demand it but I ask politely and usually we can work very well together.

While in my Static if we get a link I will release my jug pet and charm the link then run and release the link. I have saved my static several times doing that. If you get a chance party with a Bst, we are good dds as long as we have out jug pets with us, which don't effect exp anymore (thank you SE). But we serve a good purpose in the party was well. If something that isn't charmable links we can have pet attack it and try to hold if off while the party finishes of the other mob.

[Eiyoko]

When it comes to bards I guess I can't say much. I've never seen a bard pulling at high levels, so I can't agree or disagree with Mhurron. What bothered me was someone said that as a Corsair I didn't pull as effectively as a Bard would because I couldn't exactly sleep four mobs at once. More importantly, we were in the mid-40s in level, if I remember correctly.

I'll stick that in the main post to avoid confusion (or something to that effect, lol).

[Spiritbear]

I would honestly rather have a Cor in the party then a Brd.

I like the way Cor work in a party and sorry to say but most Brds I've partied with have a God complex because people make them feel they are a neccesity in the pt when you can get similar buffs from a Cor.

Just my 2 gil.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Ah, the notorious trickle-down effect of high level tactics into low levels. When will people realize what works at high level does not always work at low level? You don't have the same skills, you don't have the same spells - its different.

I personally don't think a BRD has any business pulling at low level before Ballad II, you need to be learning how to function and support with /WHM. There's no good reason to have them pulling pre-50, much less using horde lullaby to sleep multiple pulls.

Good TP burn at high level doesn't even need a BRD using Horde Lullaby, the just need them sleeping mobs successively and COR is every bit as capable of that with the right timing. I only take issue with the fact that most BRDs cannot keep buffs up, pull and sleep in TP burn effectively. It works in a roaming TP burn, but not a straight TP burn.

COR can pull and keep buffs up so long as the melee aspect of the job does not sidetrack them. Unfortunately, for most of them, it does. I don't seem to have that problem.

COR is only disadvantaged in pulling due to the fact that guns are generally high delay, which is really only an issue in competitive camps, which usually isn't the case in lower level EXP. Once you get Peacemaker, that issue with pulling dissolves entirely. No other gun can match Peacemaker's speed.

[Mhurron]

Ya I didn't see how it was going to work in the nest either, the lowest I've seen a BRD pull was at lvl 68 in Bibiki Bay. That was a fantastic party though.

As far as a COR can do what a RDM or BRD does, well I don't know. I've never partied with a COR.

[Murphie]

I started pulling on BRD in the dunes. Ideal? Not really. But I did it from then on out.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Ya I didn't see how it was going to work in the nest either, the lowest I've seen a BRD pull was at lvl 68 in Bibiki Bay. That was a fantastic party though.

As far as a COR can do what a RDM or BRD does, well I don't know. I've never partied with a COR.

Basic breakdown is this:

RDM - enfeebles mob, supports PT via Cures, nuke damage, Haste, Refresh, Dispel, sleeps links

Specialty: Enfeebling

Best with: Balanced PT. Buffs aren't amazing, but you don't get your ass kicked easily like COR and BRD do.

BRD - Enhances allies performance with static stat bonuses, Elegy and Finalie are the prime debuffs, Ballad and Lullaby for extra support.

Specialty: Melee buffs (March, Madrigal, Minuet)

Best with: Melee PT. Decent in manaburn, but can't match COR's mage buffs. Ballad and Threnodies are nice, but no match for COR's mage buffs and Quick Draw.

COR - Enhances allies performance via random percentage bonuses based on job traits, Uses Quick Draw as a mild damage nuke which enhances enfeebles and debuffs to the matching element. Refreshes, dispels, sleeps. Resets job ability timers with Random Deal and Wild Card.

Specialty: Mage buffs (magic attack, accuracy, +hMP), pet buffs (pet attack/accuracy, pet magic attack/accuracy).

Best with - Mage PT. Good with a melee PT when played dilligently.COR's unique melee buffs are powerful, but the ones comprable to BRD's are not

RDM cripples, BRD makes a PT a wrecking ball, COR plays off the talents of his PT members.

or

RDM is like balanced, reliable equipment, BRD is like free HQ gear and food, COR is like free merits you didn't know you had.

[Spiritbear]

RDM is like balanced, reliable equipment, BRD is like free HQ gear and food, COR is like free merits you didn't know you had.

That is the best way I have ever seen that put. Thank you Kitten.

[Murphie]

I dunno, there is some obvious bias there. BBQ has made clear his lack of understanding of how to play RDM correctly.

[Effedup]

I was in a party with both a cor and a brd on friday night (brd is in my static) and no one in our pt expected the brd to pull, it was pretty much a given that the cor was puller. He obviously helped control links and aggro by sleeping those mobs, but we all preferred him to buff/backup heal (I know I did, as I was main heal) then worry about running off grabbing mobs. Also, cor has much better ranged attack and parrying skills, so it worked out better for me as whm.

I've of course heard that brd is a great puller at higher levels (not there myself yet), but in the dunes it seemed like a better setup to have cor pull. It's not like we really needed someone stacking mobs for us (no competition out there at the time), and I'm guessing that in the mid 30's in CN it's probably not too big of a deal yet either. If I'm wrong, correct me...I haven't partied with a COR but maybe a handful of times, and BRD even less (until now ^^) and I'm just going on logic as to that point.

Not only that, but like you said, it IS kinda greedy, especially when there are multiple parties going for those same mobs. As with all things, everything is so much better when everybody gets along...you never know when you might need to look outside the party for help with something.

[Mhurron]

I dunno, there is some obvious bias there. BBQ has made clear his lack of understanding of how to play RDM correctly.
You expected fair and balanced?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I dunno, there is some obvious bias there. BBQ has made clear his lack of understanding of how to play RDM correctly.

Enlighten me, what did I miss? You want me to jot down the "jack of all trades" nonsense or say what RDM really does in a PT?

[Jei]

because I couldn't sleep four mobs at once.
(Eiyoko) Um...why would I need to?
(person) lol thats how brd pulls
(Eiyoko) ...

/shrug

I don't wanna say this but.... that's how Brd pulls.
At higher level, mainly in TP burn parties, you kill mobs in even less than a minute. And when one dies, the next one will be slept ready to be slaughtered just right next to the group.
That's Brd.

About BBQ, what he said is true.
Rdm's role may vary a lot.
Outside EXP party, Rdm can do many other things.
But.
In EXP party, Rdm is prefered as a full time mage.

[little ninja]

I dunno, there is some obvious bias there. BBQ has made clear his lack of understanding of how to play RDM correctly.
You expected fair and balanced?

You know you could have actually responded with what OMG over looked.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

You know you could have actually responded with what OMG over looked.

Feh, what the hell do I know? Clearly Murphie is able to spot the flaw in my post, but doesn't have to explain it to us.

[DakAttack]

Leveling as if you were doing Steamed Sprouts is not the best way to handle a party. Having a Bard keep n amount of enemies asleep as you kill them off one by one will keep the bard from keeping the party buffed.

If anything he should have asked you to pull at around 15 or 10%, have the monster back before the current is dead, and have the bard sleep THAT one until you're ready for it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Leveling as if you were doing Steamed Sprouts is not the best way to handle a party. Having a Bard keep n amount of enemies asleep as you kill them off one by one will keep the bard from keeping the party buffed.

If anything he should have asked you to pull at around 15 or 10%, have the monster back before the current is dead, and have the bard sleep THAT one until you're ready for it.

That's the main problem with BRDs, they're invited to pull just as much as they're invited to buff, but I've noticed not all of them are disciplined at pulling.

Pulling for a PT is like camping an NM in some ways. Its a game of anticipation and trusting your assessment of your PTs kill-speed. Its also a matter of being able to look around and see that next pull while you attend to your current duty, be that buffing, cures, or DD in COR's case.

To pull and keep buffs up is knowing when to leave that fight and anticipate or know where the next mob will be. BRDs used to be able to do this, but since TP burn its fallen by the wayside. Hell, some BRDs don't even have a /WHM sub in the event they're not pulling. That's sad.

[little ninja]

Feh, what the hell do I know? Clearly Murphie is able to spot the flaw in my post, but doesn't have to explain it to us.

They told me in a post a few weeks back that endgame was more busy now then it ever was, especially on my server. they then stated about several sites said this. When i asked him to post proof of this. I never saw them in the thread again.

Dont waste your time having them state their claim. It will be nothing nobody doesnt already know about. Then they will stop visiting the thread. That is unless they've already stopped.

[Mhurron]

about BBQ, what he said is true.
Rdm's role may vary a lot.
Outside EXP party, Rdm can do many other things.
But.
In EXP party, Rdm is prefered as a full time mage.
He compared a COR using and doing everything they can do to a RDM doing only what most parties ask them to do. A lot of parties would be fine with RDM doing nothing but refresh, that would fall into catagorizing a RDM in EXP as nothing but a backline mage, that doesn't mean that is a fair description of the job. (Not that bbq went that far, but they did compare a job doing everything it can to one that is expected to use only a part of what it was given).

Also, the final wrap up placing RDM as just some thowaway piece of gear, a BRD as good gear but COR is "OMGHOLYSHITTHATSAWESOME!" is what shows bbq's bias more then anything else in the thread.

[Spiritbear]

He compared a COR using and doing everything they can do to a RDM doing only what most parties ask them to do. A lot of parties would be fine with RDM doing nothing but refresh, that would fall into catagorizing a RDM in EXP as nothing but a backline mage, that doesn't mean that is a fair description of the job. (Not that bbq went that far, but they did compare a job doing everything it can to one that is expected to use only a part of what it was given).

Also, the final wrap up placing RDM as just some thowaway piece of gear, a BRD as good gear but COR is "OMGHOLYSHITTHATSAWESOME!" is what shows bbq's bias more then anything else in the thread.


BBQ was trying to answer the OP. He wanted info about Cor and Brd. BBQ just gave his opinon, biased or not it is his opinion. I think it is a valid opinion too. Not saying that Rdm couldn't do more in a party, but like you said that is what they are asked to do and usually end up doing. So, BBQ's opinion would be valid. I have partied alot with my Whm, Bst and Pld and would still rather a Cor in the party over a Brd or Rdm. Not saying that I don't party with the other two jobs, just that if all three were seeking I would choose Cor > Rdm > Brd in that order. So in my opinion Cor would be the best choice and BBQ would be correct.

[Murphie]

I thought I explained everything very well. It's not my job to tell BBQ how to play RDM. I've tried to explain how he's wrong in the past with little result. He's far too hard-headed to concede a point, or to admit that he might not know what the hell he's talking about from time to time.

And Little Ninja, don't even get me started. You are the poster child for consistently misunderstanding and misconstruing information presented to you by other posters. You say the most ridiculous things, and then when you are called on it, you start talking about something else. Plus, most people can barely understand what you're saying because you are incapable of spelling above a third grade level. I haven't dodged any points with you. Saying otherwise is an outright lie.

As Mhurron already pointed out, BBQ compared three jobs, only two of which he actually understands. One he limited to only what a party wants from it, the other from what it can do when pushed to the limits of party play, and the other to some sort of crazy god-like job that doesn't even exist in this game. And you people have the audacity to say that there is no bias there?

Ridiculous.

BBQ was trying to answer the OP. He wanted info about Cor and Brd. BBQ just gave his opinon, biased or not it is his opinion. I think it is a valid opinion too. Not saying that Rdm couldn't do more in a party, but like you said that is what they are asked to do and usually end up doing. So, BBQ's opinion would be valid. I have partied alot with my Whm, Bst and Pld and would still rather a Cor in the party over a Brd or Rdm. Not saying that I don't party with the other two jobs, just that if all three were seeking I would choose Cor > Rdm > Brd in that order. So in my opinion Cor would be the best choice and BBQ would be correct.I'm well aware of what an opinion is. But I'm allowed to call it biased if I want. That's MY opinion.

A BRD is asked to pull and do a bit of buffing. A COR is asked to do the same. How is that anything more than what a RDM is asked to do? We are asked to main heal, backup heal, enfeeble, remove status, buff the party, occasionally pull or off-tank, and generally keep the party going. A BRD or a COR isn't going to keep the party going. They are going to help the party do well when it is going, but neither can main heal, neither can enfeeble very much (beyond sleep and slow), neither can remove status (unless they sub WHM, and then good luck pulling). They can both buff the party and pull, but good luck off-tanking.

[Spiritbear]

As Mhurron already pointed out, BBQ compared three jobs, only two of which he actually understands. One he limited to only what a party wants from it, the other from what it can do when pushed to the limits of party play, and the other to some sort of crazy god-like job that doesn't even exist in this game. And you people have the audacity to say that there is no bias there?

So you say that you don't even know much about COR or BRD, but BBQ is totally right. How does that make any sense at all?

I said that BBQ is right in the fact that is his opinion and that I agree. I don't have to play the job to understand what it can and can't do I have seen Rdm solo shit that most jobs can't, I have been in the same party and rep a brd with Cor (and vice-versa) and seen the difference in exp change when they would switch out. It was always the same Cor always helped the exp jump up a bit. I have a habit of paying attention to what all the jobs in the party are doing so I have a good idea of what they can do so I know what I would like in the parties when I make my own.

Everything on this site is subject to opinion. Everytime someone ask about what job they should play, all the responses are based on the responders bias toward a certain job. I certainly would never suggest anyone lvl Brd but others might so anyone saying that BBQ being biased is a bad thing is just flat out ridiculous. BBQ gives valid opinions about Cor and if he gives opinions that you don't agree with then you tear him down and try to make his opinion count for nothing, when in fact his opinion could be the one thing that keeps someone playing FFXI rather then going to WoW or some other MMO. Just like anyone else on this site.

Everyone needs to stop tearing everyone else apart and just give there opinions about the OPs and carry-on. If you disagree with something then let your opinion be known and let it be if someone is going to change their opinion then it will happen when a valid point is given to them, not after several post of arguing.

[Murphie]

So, because he's saying BRD and COR are super awesome, and RDM is just average, but I'm saying that he's wrong, his opinion is right, but mine isn't?

What sort of logic is that?

[Ziero]

Personally I've had a brd puller in CN before and it was freaking awesome. I believe the set up was Whm, Brd, Drk, Mnk, Nin and Rng and from the moment the brd showed up to the moment he unfortunately d/c'd for the rest of the night he did all of three things. Buff the melees, buff the (very bored) whm and pull. Didn't say a word, (prolly cause he was jp) just came in, did his thing and let us slaughter whatever poor mob he brought back to camp. Now this wasn't that '4 mobs at once' hoarding method mentioned mentioned earlier, but this was the 'slept mob waiting at camp for chaining' method.

Now on the opposite end of the spectrum I remember one pt with a brd I'm glad we didn't pt with. It was at 37 and the first thing she did was argue that the war tank should sub nin instead of mnk, with two mnks in the pt. Then when the pt leader told her she was pulling she said she didn't have the spells to pull, pt leader told her to buy one of the 200 gil spells in jeuno. She responded that he(as a mnk) should pull with pebbles instead. Eventually she got booted from the pt and was replaced by a rdm which ended up making the War tank pull (who was a great tank with /mnk sub).

But basically the point of this post is that *good* brds can pull at any lvl, and still maintain their duties in a pt. Not saying Cors can't pull, as I've had a few decent Cor pullers as well, just saying it's not a case of one being better then another.

[eticket109]

Sleep pulling multiple mobs at 40 is probably one of the quickest routes to 39.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

So, because he's saying BRD and COR are super awesome, and RDM is just average, but I'm saying that he's wrong, his opinion is right, but mine isn't?

RDM does nothing outstanding where buffs are concerned, the difference in buffs lies in they're all single-target for RDM, but they're nowhere near the power of what COR and BRD can do. RDM's specialty is in enfeebling, refresh, backup cures and magic bursting, none of which COR and BRD do well save for refreshing.

RDM is about PT endurace. Its partly the reason why they're preferred in PLD tank PTs over BRD and COR and its also why they're more proficent in solo than BRD and COR.

RDM cripples mobs, BRD and COR enhance PT members.
RDM gives a PT endurance, BRD and COR give PTs power.
RDM is a constant balancing act, COR and BRD... not so much.
All dispel

The jobs are totally different otherwise, but serve to meet the same ends.

I've only stated the facts between the jobs, I've played all to a reasonably high level. You can't wave a level 75 RDM over my 65 RDM because by that level all that's left to learn are tier 3 elemental magic spells. That has no barring on what else a RDM can do for a PT.

Only other thing I could possibly add about COR and BRD is that they have opportunities to play other roles in PT that generally not accepted for RDMs to do.

BRD excels at pulling and past 72, COR isn't shabby in that regard. COR is welcomed to DD on the frontlines while RDM commonly is not; this is compounded by the presense of BLU in the game. COR and BRD are welcomed to sub /NIN in PT, even /RNG for COR, but /NIN poses no PT benefit for RDM.

Can RDM pull and sleep mobs? Sure, they can use ranged and sleep, but I don't see it commonly, you'd have to give up a slot for phantom/morion tathlum or hedgehog bomb to do so. And just like main healing, not everyone likes pulling, I know COR and BRDs like that.

RDM's role is very much established in the minds of the community.
People really only warmed up to BRD late in CoPs and very much so in ToA, so its finally seeing some true exploration.
COR is still a young job and one with untapped potentials, lots of pioneering left to do.

I think you're the biased one here. And just the fact that you have the audacity to question my skill as a RDM without seeing it first hand is arrogant and stupid.

[Sevv]

Ok on the brd v rdm v cor. On boosts to party skills/etc Cor and Brd > rdm. No im not saying cor and brd better then rdm, because i go for the rdm as my first mage. And BBQ's comment about being reliable isnt a burn, Rdm is a solid relaible job for a pt. They dont have the "flash" that cor or brd get from parties. Rdm is the best main healer IMHO in burn/merit pts. I tend to get to brds over cor because in my experiance i havent met too many good cor, and personally i think brds pull better. I have met a few good cors and what they do is great. There is no brd/cor/rdm > the other 2 overall, Depending on your pt and set up that will determine the best job for your pt.

to the OP: every party has thier own style of play some people want different pullers, gun delay as bbq stated gets better with the peace maker.

[Ziero]

....back on topic

Multi-mob pulling at low lvls is dangerous and stupid unless the mobs are all EM or low T or something. But Brd is still a highly efficiant puller in the 40s. Cor however is also a very good puller as gun speed only affects competitive camps, and if you're competing for pulls at lower lvls it's not a very good camp. A good pt will be able to let their puller run off before the mob is dead and grab a new mob to bring back to camp. By the time the new mob arrives the old one should just have died so everyone can jump right on the new one. This tactic works as low as the dunes as I've used this exact method personally and many times. The trick is to go after low IT, VT or even T mobs so you can kill them quickly. Pts that go after IT++ are just going to slow themselves down no matter who is pulling.

[Spiritbear]

So, because he's saying BRD and COR are super awesome, and RDM is just average, but I'm saying that he's wrong, his opinion is right, but mine isn't?

What sort of logic is that?

Did you see anywhere in my statments that I said you were wrong? I stated my opinion about the OP, then my opinion about someone saying that BBQ was wrong. I just pointed out that BBQ is expressing his opinion and is not wrong in his opinion and the way you made it into a discussion about how he was wrong in his opinion. I was pointing out a better way to handle the situation by not arguing about an opinion and just stating yours and carrying-on. You don't have to tell someone they are wrong about something, this is not just directed at you either it is for everyone, just express your opinion and leave it at that. I never once said anyone was wrong, I said that I agreed with BBQ's opinion.


Back to the OP.
Every job pulls differently and every party wants it done differently. I have seen every job in the game pull on more then one occation and it all works out in the end. Either the entire party wipes and you find a different puller or your party get's exp. But you have to play the way the party wants or don't party with them. The best way to have the party run the way you would like it to make it yourself.

I would like to appologize to the OP for your post becoming an argument.

[Karinya]

RDM cripples mobs, BRD and COR enhance PT members.
RDM gives a PT endurance, BRD and COR give PTs power.
I think this puts a finger on the difference between the jobs, and also why RDM is at a disadvantage in many merit setups. (Relative to BRD or COR, that is. Because those jobs are respectively rare and ultra-rare, RDM still usually has no problem finding a party - many parties are willing to settle for a RDM even if they are less effective for the party's setup and target choice.)

RDM is more focused on reducing the monster's ability to damage the party, while BRD and COR are more focused on enhancing the party's ability to damage the monster. (Not 100% - there's still Gravity, Dia, Elegy - but mostly.) Incidentally, I don't see any mention of one of RDM's most important enfeebles that neither COR nor BRD shares: Silence. A RDM crushes most casters the way a MNK crushes bones; they have especially powerful tools against those specific monster types.

In party setups where the monster is too weak to fight back (either an actual T, something whose stats should make it a T but is rated VT by exp tables, or a monster family that's just hopelessly weak like colibris), RDM is pointless - why bother weakening the offense of a monster that doesn't have any worth worrying about to begin with?

Like many other balance problems (IMO), this would be implicitly fixed if fighting difficult monsters provided as much EXP/hr as fighting weak ones. But it doesn't, so only party setups that are good against weak monsters are considered "successful".
RDM is a constant balancing act, COR and BRD... not so much.
All dispel
All dispel, but not equally well. SMN and BLU can dispel too, but neither has a full set of support tools (although they can contribute quite usefully, it's still a good idea to have one of the big 3).

Although I wouldn't say that COR and BRD are not balancing acts. You have a limited number of buff slots that you have to fill with the most useful buffs possible, and in COR's case you also have timing restrictions and have to trade off pushing for greater buff effectiveness vs. avoiding excessive bust risk. Plus the general balancing of time spent buffing/debuffing vs. time spent pulling which anyone in a support/puller role has to deal with.
Can RDM pull and sleep mobs? Sure, they can use ranged and sleep, but I don't see it commonly, you'd have to give up a slot for phantom/morion tathlum or hedgehog bomb to do so. And just like main healing, not everyone likes pulling, I know COR and BRDs like that.
There's no reason for RDM to use a ranged weapon to pull, unless you are camped in an area with arcana and don't want to fight the arcana (I can't think of any camps that meet that description). Otherwise just pull with a quick-casting spell. (Not a DoT if you intend to sleep the monster at camp, of course.) Pulling spellcasters with Silence is strongly recommended unless you expect them to have shadows, since it starts them chasing you immediately instead of casting a spell. In fact, the ability to Silence pull makes RDM the *preferred* pullers in some situations (e.g. KRT manaburns).

Not that it would really matter if you did give up the tathlum, though. 2 INT and what, 5 max MP? It's only there because there isn't anything better, not because it actually has a noticeable impact on performance.

RDM don't need Utsusemi to pull because unlike COR and BRD, they have full-strength Stoneskin native to the job (and Fast Cast so it doesn't take all day); in some camps /NIN can still be helpful, but it isn't as big a deal as it is for pullers with no other way of protecting themselves.


To return to the original post: If you have more than 2 mobs sleeping in your camp and you're below level 70, you're probably going to get your party wiped as soon as you get a bad resist. Lower level parties generally fight mobs that are actually dangerous to them, and that means resists can happen fairly often, and multiple mobs that aren't quickly reslept will be very dangerous.

Even in merit it should very rarely be necessary to have that many sleeping mobs (unless you just pulled a bst+pet or something like that). As long as you have at least one mob arriving by the time the previous one dies, there's no reason to accept the extra costs and risks of keeping more mobs sleeping, unless you are trying to hog them away from other parties (which is just being an asshole.) The point of pre-pulling is to keep your DDs working continuously, but your DDs can't kill more than one monster at a time without *waking up* more than one monster at a time, which is generally Bad.

Good crowd control is still useful at low levels, but it's mainly for *unwanted* extra monsters.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I think this puts a finger on the difference between the jobs, and also why RDM is at a disadvantage in many merit setups. (Relative to BRD or COR, that is. Because those jobs are respectively rare and ultra-rare, RDM still usually has no problem finding a party - many parties are willing to settle for a RDM even if they are less effective for the party's setup and target choice.)

Actually, as it stands now, COR feels like the one that's "settled for."

BLMs love CORs to death, really love them, even more than BRD because we have the mage buffs in our corner. But occasionally with melee PTs its "What is it you do, exactly? I've never PTed with a COR."

The job is still young, but some people are on to what COR is capable of. Pity a lot of CORs themselves are not and just see it a refresher with an excuse to DD.


All dispel, but not equally well. SMN and BLU can dispel too, but neither has a full set of support tools (although they can contribute quite usefully, it's still a good idea to have one of the big 3).

Although I wouldn't say that COR and BRD are not balancing acts. You have a limited number of buff slots that you have to fill with the most useful buffs possible, and in COR's case you also have timing restrictions and have to trade off pushing for greater buff effectiveness vs. avoiding excessive bust risk. Plus the general balancing of time spent buffing/debuffing vs. time spent pulling which anyone in a support/puller role has to deal with.


The trade off on Quick Draw is important to note, best COR can ever do with merits is getting it down to 50 seconds. This isn't a problem for me when I'm simulating the BRD style of pulling (pull, sleep, buff, run back out to pull again), but when it comes to Dark Shot, its a bit more frustrating. BRD also is saddled with a longer recast timer for Finale. RDM's Dispel has the lowest recast, it just cost MP whereas BRD's is free and COR's comes at the expense of a consumable.

And I probably just said COR and BRD are less of a juggling act to me now that I'm on my third support class, I can slip into any of those roles without missing a beat. I know my target rolls by heart, altered my chat log to see every mob buff for the purpose of dispelling it. All my macros follow the same layout. Even with RNG, Acid Bolts are right where I would put Dispel.

With COR, I take all I've learned about enfeebles and apply that to Quick Draw, I can balance my PTs buffs out because I used to analyze gear, food and the works for a PT setup as BRD. Pulls? BRD and RNG taught me that. So all that's left is tracking my lucky and unluckys and knowing my other target numbers for each roll. I don't bust a lot.

Feels less busy because I'm experienced elsewhere, back when I did RDM and BRD it felt a bit more hectic at first, but balanced out over time.

[Eiyoko]

Thank you, Spiritbear, for your kind words. Apparently my intent has slipped and people have fallen into some petty, childish argument over which job is better.

My intent for this was not to say which job was better. My intent for this was not to know what job does what. My intent for this was NOT for people to argue like children.

As for this nonsensical argument going on here...I'm going to keep my mouth shut for the sake of decency. I'm remaining neutral, got it? You people carry on with this nonsense. I'll have no part in it.

But do me a favor and act your age.

Oh, by the way. I'm not pointing any fingers, so don't even start that.

[IfritnoItazura]

Also, the final wrap up placing RDM as just some thowaway piece of gear, a BRD as good gear but COR is "OMGHOLYSHITTHATSAWESOME!" is what shows bbq's bias more then anything else in the thread.

RDM is like balanced, reliable equipment, BRD is like free HQ gear and food, COR is like free merits you didn't know you had.

I don't know, Mhurron; it's not exactly a huge bias. I mean, I'd normally advise people to keep "balanced, reliable equipment", and not call it a "throwaway".

BBQ did mention a RDM supports a party in part by curing, though one can complain he didn't give it enough weight. Overall, RDM is more flexible than BRD or COR, so I guess you can fault him for lack of emphasis on that, and called RDM's "balanced, reliable" instead of "flexible and adaptable to any situation"? Both points are minor quibbles, though.

Doesn't seem like he slighted RDM in any major way; it's a reasonable (if not all encompassing) comparison of support role jobs. Most importantly, his post gave me a better understanding of when COR and BRD would shine--even if it is off topic in some ways. >_>;

* * *

Anyone--on any job, leader or otherwise--asking a Crawlers Nest party to pull four monsters at once is either insane, an idiot, or knows something I don't. :P

To ensure flowing exp chain, you'd want one monster in the queue by the time the current target dies. Each additional monster in queue gives additional--but diminishing--assurance of that flow, but in return adds additional--and increasing--amount of risk.

* * *

I've only seen BRD pulling closely once, and that was BRD/RDM in a roaming party, targeting weapons. She'd pull one monster within view of the party, Lullaby it, go to party, Ballad x2, then run off. By the time she pulls back and Lullaby the next critter, the party would be on the one previously slept, and she'd switch to melee buff songs. Then, she'd repeat the routine again.

So, basically there's one monster in the queue at a time. Once in a while, there would be none (oddball quick kill), or there would be two (oddball slow kill) in the queue , but vast majority of the time there is one, and only one snoozing monster waiting to be slaughtered.

It seems to work well enough; is there really a need to sleep four monsters at a time, outside of competitive pulling area?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

BBQ did mention a RDM supports a party in part by curing, though one can complain he didn't give it enough weight. Overall, RDM is more flexible than BRD or COR, so I guess you can fault him for lack of emphasis on that, and called RDM's "balanced, reliable" instead of "flexible and adaptable to any situation"? Both points are minor quibbles, though.

We could go further with it, but its just not worth it. To them, I'm biased, but they refuse to make a good case to support it. Obviously, experience in the three support classes is not sufficient qualification to these two, I've apparently missed some great detail about RDM... or they simply did not like how I worded it.

More often than not Murphie and Mhurron need someone else to post something they agree with rather than formulate a worthwhile and informative counterpoint. Then Murph thanks the hell out of them for thinking for him.

But I digress, we've gone far enough off-topic.

To ensure flowing exp chain, you'd want one monster in the queue by the time the current target dies. Each additional monster in queue gives additional--but diminishing--assurance of that flow, but in return adds additional--and increasing--amount of risk.

That's pretty much how it works. From the day I started BRD pulling, I left at about 1/3rd HP to bring a mob back and sleep it, then PT moved on to that one. With mobs in ToA zones being as week as they are, a BRD or COR can stand to leave earlier than that and sleeps are way more reliable.

But in my stint in GC as BST, I saw many PTs pulling with BRD and trying to sleep multiple beetles and bats. Given the defense of beetles, it doesn't work so well. Beetles and bats are very susceptable to light based sleep, but no real need to take four at once.

People are really just to giddy on the whole BRD pulling trend, its trickled down too far. I know BRDs that have HNM pearls, but no /WHM sub. I know CORs that will not give up a DD slot to play pure support or pull. That's every bit as inflexible as a RDM that doesn't want to main heal. Then there's the WAR who refuse to tank and etc, etc.

Point is, people zero in on the aspect of the job the like and tend to ignore everything else. And its a common issue just about everywhere in the game.

[Murphie]

We could go further with it, but its just not worth it. To them, I'm biased, but they refuse to make a good case to support it. Obviously, experience in the three support classes is not sufficient qualification to these two, I've apparently missed some great detail about RDM... or they simply did not like how I worded it.

More often than not Murphie and Mhurron need someone else to post something they agree with rather than formulate a worthwhile and informative counterpoint. Then Murph thanks the hell out of them for thinking for him.

But I digress, we've gone far enough off-topic.Thanks, BBQ.

[Sevv]

murphie what did bbq miss about rdm, i thaugh she was pretty well on point.

[Aeolus]

e-peen 1 hits e-peen 2 for 198 points of damage!

[Sevv]

e-peen 1 hits e-peen 2 for 198 points of damage!

i lold