Fun with Haste!

[Malacite]

So I got to thinking earlier: Just how much haste can a SAM pile on?


Well, after digging through somepage's database, I found that the highest possible haste count from Hasso, DRG sub and equipment comes to +37%.


That's insane. Now, as this is entirely hypothetical, I don't want to hear anything about how much such and such costs, or how rare it is. This is just fun speculation.



Now then, assuming we tack on double march, haste (WHM/RDM) and a Soboro Sukehiro, how much fun would it be to see a SAM just go nuts with all that?


Haste is approximated at 15%, with the marches being around 7 and 9 I believe, or 9 and 11 with the +2 effect, boosting the total to a maximum to 72% !!!


I have no idea if anything over 50% does anything or if anyone's ever even been able to test that, and for sh**s and giggles, let's throw soul voice into the mix to double the march effect.


I'd pay to see a SAM with all this in action, something give those Ridill WAR's and Kraken DRK's to gawk at for a change hee hee.

[Aksannyi]

Well I'm not sure how all of the Haste effects work, or if they even stack, as I've never bothered to take a look, but I'd love to see someone try it. Imagine the TP gains on something like that.

[Tirrock]

I think that the general belief on forums is that haste from gear caps at 25%. I don't know what the total cap is though. I want to say 50%, but that may just be for recast timers and not melee attacks.

I know I've seen tests done about it...but it's been so long that I don't remember where it was, or even the results any more.

[Liquidedust]

So I got to thinking earlier: Just how much haste can a SAM pile on?


Well, after digging through somepage's database, I found that the highest possible haste count from Hasso, DRG sub and equipment comes to +37%.


That's insane. Now, as this is entirely hypothetical, I don't want to hear anything about how much such and such costs, or how rare it is. This is just fun speculation.



Now then, assuming we tack on double march, haste (WHM/RDM) and a Soboro Sukehiro, how much fun would it be to see a SAM just go nuts with all that?


Haste is approximated at 15%, with the marches being around 7 and 9 I believe, or 9 and 11 with the +2 effect, boosting the total to a maximum to 72% !!!


I have no idea if anything over 50% does anything or if anyone's ever even been able to test that, and for sh**s and giggles, let's throw soul voice into the mix to double the march effect.


I'd pay to see a SAM with all this in action, something give those Ridill WAR's and Kraken DRK's to gawk at for a change hee hee.

Hasso +10% (works at a magical bonus)
Haste from Gear caps at +25% (though you need ~27% from gear to reach this due to how game counts to reach this though)
Haste Spell +15%
2 Marches caps at 24~25%

Total attack speed caps at 70% or 75% cannot remember
Magical recast caps at 50%


Hasso + Haste Spell + 2 Marches alone gives you 49~50% so you just need to pile on gear to reach the 70~75% cap

[Malacite]

oh man what a site to see. 75% Haste on a Soboro >. > (or Hagun)

let the TP spam begin!

[Effedup]

somebody needs to do this and post some videos...it would definitely be sweet to see ^^

[Armando]

Yeah, the absolute cap is 70%. I think Nny had put up videos when he was doing his Haste cap testing.

[Malacite]

The closest I've seen to this is a video (I dun have the link anymore ; ;) of a 75 NIN who simply did not stop attacking, it was unbelievable.

[Amele]

confirming: haste cap from gear is 25% (takes ~26-27% in gear depending on the specific numbers) I've bumped into it on whitemage.

haste from spell: "Haste" is about 15% - haste from marches is approximately 7 and 9 % each without bonus but stacks to approximately 15% as well. there is speculation that the haste cap from spell effects also caps at 25% but I think 50% is more likely.

it is unclear whether 'hasso' counts as a spell effect for the purposes of this cap (or if indeed, hasso even is *haste* but instead a delay reduction, which is counted separately)

most ninja tests also include the delay reduction effects from dual-wielding to try and reach the 150delay limit - I'm not sure if the reported 70% includes the delay reduction effects from dual-wield or not.

in any case, especially with the new usukane gear - it should be possible to get to the 25% gear haste cap even without resorting to /drg for the earring (which may or may not be preferable, depending on your access to usukane and whether you prefer /drg over other subs)

I'm not sure if the max haste build (excluding incidental haste from the amazing usukane set) is actually the optimum setup for sam but it would certainly be a fun 'toy' combo and would make for some interesting comparison sessions to say the least.

[Armando]

Hasso is a spell effect and doesn't count towards the 25% gear cap. Hasso is definetely not a Delay reduction, this was tested shortly after the patch.

Spell effects as a whole do not seem to have a cap, since they can fill the extra 45% required to hit the 70% haste cap when coupled with 25% haste in gear. The 50% recast cap has no bearing on attack speed. At best, Nny had speculated that each Haste "entity" is capped at 25%, with each spell/song, and equipment each being an entity. Still, I'm not even sure if you can make a Soul Voiced March hit 25% Haste, so it's still kind of a moot point.
most ninja tests also include the delay reduction effects from dual-wielding to try and reach the 150delay limit - I'm not sure if the reported 70% includes the delay reduction effects from dual-wield or not.What 150 Delay limit? In any case, the 70% does not take Dual Wield into account. Dual Wield does not technically stack with Haste. Dual Wield provides you with a new Delay to which your Haste is then applied.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, and to answer the OP's question: Soboro is a 450 Delay weapon, and the most Haste you can have is 70%, so with a Soboro you'd have 135 Delay, or 2.25 secs per attack round. I've read that Soboro's multi-hits average out to 2 hits per attack round, so you'd be looking at an average of ~53 swings per minute without factoring in Jumps (on which Soboro's multi-hits can also proc.)

[Feba]

I'm pretty sure weapon delay can go below 150, but it will return the same TP, right?

Simple test of this, get two platoon daggers.

[Armando]

There's no longer a TP floor, so in theory the TP would continue to scale down (slowly, but still.) Of course, there's still an absolute minimum Delay you can get since there's a maximum amount of Dual Wield you can get through traits and gear (I believe about 45% with Suppa, Ninja Chainmail, and Koga pants,) and a minimum Delay on the weapons available so far (150 on Beestinger/Hornetneedle/Platoon Dagger/Sirocco Kukri.) The lowest weapon Delay per hand when dual wielding should be 82, which would give 4.1 TP per hit.

The lowest attack speed would be 300 * 0.55 * 0.30 = 49, which would be 24.5 per hand.

EDIT: Come to think of it, that's probably why there's no weapons with Delays lower than 150. 49 delay for both hands is already a ludicrous speed, anything lower and you've got delays low enough to be called absurd.

[Amele]

What 150 Delay limit? In any case, the 70% does not take Dual Wield into account. Dual Wield does not technically stack with Haste. Dual Wield provides you with a new Delay to which your Haste is then applied.

I may have misremembered concerning limits, it's possible that the maximum reduction for a standard wakizashi style katana is 150 net delay. I was aware that Dual wield bonus and haste do not 'stack' as such (synergistic bonuses toward reducing overall time between swings) and that dual wield bonus directly reduces delay rather than increasing attack speed - this is similar to the synergistic bonus between fast cast and cure speed reduction for whitemage (which also do not 'stack' in the literal sense).

in any case, I was unaware of Nny's specific tests prior to this thread and most ninja tests I had seen were more about maximising swings/min rather than capping haste specifically.

I've also wondered if the cap is actually at 70% or is it simply that the maximum available haste bonus (excluding 25% cap from gear) is 45%? (15%(haste) + 9%(march I +2) + 11%(march II +2) + 10%(hasso) ) since I'm not aware of any other effects currently available.

[Armando]

The 150 Delay limit you read about was probably the TP floor.

You can exceed 45% haste in spells with Soul Voiced Marches (doubles their values,) and there's also the Haste Belt whose enchantment is a 10% Haste spell effect.

EDIT: For the curious, Nny's testing and videos can be found here (http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=posts&p=2264849#2264849). Not sure if that's all of the testing he did, though, but there's plenty in that thread.

EDIT2: Just pointing out that Lmnop recently did a small test to confirm that Dual Wield and Haste are treated separately, and his results supported Nny's tests.

[Malacite]

53 a minute holy crap....

Now that you mention it though, the Usukune Set Bonus is "Enhances Haste Effect".


We have no idea what that means. It could be extra haste, or for all we know it could raise the cap on it. Someone's got to eventually get the full set and test it out!

[Amele]

didn't think the enchantment belt stacked with 'haste' the spell? (given that enchantment is 'enchantment: Haste' - please correct me if you know otherwise). and I had forgotten about soul-voice's doubling effect.

the TP floor was never at 150 delay. (5% tp has always been 180 delay, prior to the floor being removed, anything below 180 delay hit for the same tp as a 180 delay weapon) I'm pretty sure I read other information concerning attempts by ninja to reach 150 delay via reduction with all varieties of katana, but again I'm no longer sure if this was an actual limit or just the goal of the ninja in question (given that no weapons exist with default delays below 150 it's possible the ninja just set a goal of 'make all wakizashi work like unenhanced 150delay daggers')

In any case, apparently there is not a 150 delay limit so it's a pretty moot point. thanks for the clarification.

[Armando]

Oh, you're right, the floor was at 180. My bad.

Anyways, the belt's enchantment does stack with the spell. You wouldn't think it from the wording, but thankfully, they do, which makes them the best Haste belt for WAR/PLD/DRK if it weren't for the fact that they're so inefficient in terms of cost/time, and that they can't be switched out on WS. The source is this old thread (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/general-ffxi-discussion/45781-haste-belt.html?highlight=haste).

As for Usukane gear, I doubt it raises the cap. I'd guess it gives a static or percentage bonus when you have Haste on.

[Malacite]

I'd still like to know the exact mechanics on not only Usukune but the other Set Bonuses as well. SE has such a bad habbit of giving us mind boggling bonuses. Just once, a straight forward explanation would be nice ^^;

[Amele]

here's one for you malacite:

Yigit set: bonus "Refresh" - effect: 1mp/tick (gg SE)

my guess with the usukane is that the full set is worth 13-16% overall (8% on set plus a further 5-8% from the set bonus) to bring it approximately in line with the effect of 'haste' (spell) or dual march without the bonus. I would not however, be at all surprised to find out that the bonus from the full set was 1-2% for an overall total of 9-10% (the highest haste bonus 'set' available is currently Blessed Attire +1 Set - which has a total bonus of 13% when wearing all three haste pieces; the highest EX set is Homam Armor Set at 12%).

[Malacite]

Yigit set: bonus "Refresh" - effect: 1mp/tick (gg SE)


Even that seems a bit missleading though to anyone hasn't actually worn the set or any Refresh Gear. I mean at first glance it sounds like you're getting 3 MP, but you're not ; ;


Then you have the plethora of other items with enhancing effects that have either been approximated through meticulous testing, or are still as of yet unknown.

E.g. Ares Set (Enhances Double Attack) and WAR AF boots (same thing, but it's been estimated to be a 2% increase) and many more. Rather than "Enhances (Insert Ability Here)", at least if it's a direct boost numerically, they could freaking say so. E.g, change WAR AF boots to read "Double Attack +2) like the relic pants (+1 in its case)

[Amele]

alot of times, 'enhances' is worded as such because it's *not* a linear boost. unfortunately SE is also notorious for not wording things consistently. It has also on occasion been theorized that 'enhances' only works if you already have the trait whereas "ability +#" (or +%) will give you the ability if you don't have it. (I seem to remember that this idea was disproved, but it's possible that SE was considering this system when they worded some of the earlier pieces.

by and large (notable exceptions are subtle blow and store TP) most ability boosts do not give a specific value, instead saying 'enhances'. even subtle blow is 'enhances' on occasion.