BLM/NIN in Exp Party

[hongman]

Ok, so just going through the BLM Solo Guide I was reading about the /nin option, and I thought: If the party had a WHM or even RDM-SMN/WHM, would it not be totally kickass to /NIN in an EXP Party?

At my level (33) I can dual wield 2 Solid Wands, giving a whopping +10 INT there alone.

Plus I get Utsu for in case I pull hate :P

What do you all think? Im guessing this is a no no since I have never seen a BLM/NIN in a pt (although I do know someone who tanked on WHM/NIN) so is there a big flaw I am missing?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

BLM/NIN may seem Kick-ass for PTs, but its more likely to get your ass kicked from PTs. And if you overnuke too freely, no amount of Utsusemi is going to save you.

[hongman]

Thanks omg...that really helped. Stop being such a smart ass with stupid comments.

Ok ok.

1. Please state why it would get me kicked from parties. That is what I am asking in the first place. Re-read my post. I would never just turn up in a pt /nin - I am putting the concept forward to see if it would even be worth thinking about.

2. Having Utsu was just an added bonus. Im not saying I could overnuke "freely" with /NIN.

The way I am thinking is, if the PT is well balanced, and there is no need for the BLM to cast WHM spells, why not? Extra +stat wand, cant hurt.

Can it?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Thanks omg...that really helped. Stop being such a smart ass with stupid comments.

It can't be smart and stupid at the same time, pick one :P

1. Please state why it would get me kicked from parties. That is what I am asking in the first place. Re-read my post. I would never just turn up in a pt /nin - I am putting the concept forward to see if it would even be worth thinking about.

2. Having Utsu was just an added bonus. Im not saying I could overnuke "freely" with /NIN.

The way I am thinking is, if the PT is well balanced, and there is no need for the BLM to cast WHM spells, why not? Extra +stat wand, cant hurt.

Can it?

"If there is no need for BLM to cast WHM spells," is a routine cop-out for using a selfish subjob over a supportive one. Or one devised to get one out of levelling a /WHM sub.

Just because you sub /WHM doesn't mean its just for curing. I will never understand why people look at a WHM sub and think cures are all it is for. There is also Regen, status cures, Stoneskin and Blink. Sneak and invisible to get allies to camp. Oh, and Raise.

Here's why /NIN isn't smiled upon:

- Loss of MP you could get from /WHM or even /SMN.
- Loss of Clear Mind (+hMP trait) from /WHM. Fast MP recovery = good
- Loss of Curative abilities you could have used to support your PT.
- The gain of stats from dual wands is negligable at best, got plenty of places to stuff INT before that.

Am I correct in assuming you're finishing off BLM for RDM and already have NIN finished as a sub for RDM? Where exactly is that WHM sub right now, hm? >.>

[hongman]

There, that was much more helpful (serious tone here). Why couldnt you have done that in the first place?

Anyways:

What is a "selfish subjob"?

As for Staus Cures etc, thats why I mentioned a generally balanced party that has a WHM or at least /WHM. Guess I should of added "with the rigth camp and right mobs". But then /NIN becomes situational, so I guess that answers that.

Loss of MP...I guess here it would be is the tradeoff between lots of MP or more Potent spells.

hMP - good point.

Again, tradeoff between that +INT with the extra wand = more potent spells = faster kills over a few cures here and there. Supporting a party can be done offensively and defensively.

Well, at least it was interesting in my head while it lasted.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

What is a "selfish subjob"?

Something subbed when a party member doesn't want to assist with another role they could be adding to the PT. This subjob instead adds nothing to output of a PT.

As for Staus Cures etc, thats why I mentioned a generally balanced party that has a WHM or at least /WHM. Guess I should of added "with the rigth camp and right mobs". But then /NIN becomes situational, so I guess that answers that.

Don't pass the buck off to a WHM or SMN/WHM to do everything. A BLM typically nukes steadily and evenly, watching that they don't draw hate. I never expended so much MP on BLM that I couldn't toss out a cure or status cure from time to time.

It can't hurt to help a WHM save some MP with status cures, they have to keep everyone alive and its their MP that determies whether or not a PT can keep a chain, BLMs can usually rest a few ticks or more in any fight, so thier MP isn't as vital to keeping chains, though there are situations where more nuking could be needed.

Again, tradeoff between that +INT with the extra wand = more potent spells = faster kills over a few cures here and there. Supporting a party can be done offensively and defensively.

Offensive support is not the same thing as raw damage dealing. Offensive support is DoT enfeebles, status ailments, Acid Bolts or Demon arrows, Rampart, elemental Ninjutsu, SATA and the like. Nukes are just raw damage. +3-5 extra INT isn't going to be a dramatic boost over what you were single-wielding before.

[Kirsteena]

At the end of the day, a blm who is unable to toss out the odd cure to help out your party is just leeching. BLM does damage, yes. But helping out your party (in whatever aspect) is the main thing. Sub job traits when you have access to them already don't stack, so extra hMp is irrelevant from /whm won't be there (blm gets better clear mind than whm anyway).

An example. Take for instance your tank sucks, and doesn't turn say, a tiger, away from the mages. Whm gets caught in Roar (AoE Paralyze effect). That whm can't get paralyna off, because they are paralyzed. Blm should have ability to throw out paralyna, doesn't. Tank dies, followed swiftly by rest of party. See where /whm would have helped?

Even at endgame, on blm, most of the time I am on /whm, even though /rdm will often help me out more. The only time I am likely to be on /rdm is for DA camp, when I am MBing heavily, and we will have more than enough healers (and I <3 Phalanx in that situation anyway).

An extra 5 INT isn't going to help you much. It will add about 20 extra damage at most. Not a huge amount in the long run. Int affects lower level spells damage (higher spells are affected by MAB more).

But as an Elvaan, the loss of mp as /nin would be crippling.

I know it is tempted to sub odd things, but please, leave those for solo play. /rdm is a soloing, not a party sub. Same with nin.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

At the end of the day, a blm who is unable to toss out the odd cure to help out your party is just leeching. BLM does damage, yes. But helping out your party (in whatever aspect) is the main thing. Sub job traits when you have access to them already don't stack, so extra hMp is irrelevant from /whm won't be there (blm gets better clear mind than whm anyway).

Forgot WHM got Clear Mind at 20, wouldn't even show up for him under sub yet anyway, even if it could stack. But he would be losing out on Divine Seal, which can also be very useful.

[hongman]

I admit defeat, if it were.

Not that I was arguing it was useful anyway, I know I am not super-knowledgable in this game and the idea seemed interesting to me, hence I posted for discussion.

Oh well. Like I said, was interesting while it lasted :p

[Haggai]

I was in a party one time with a BLM/NIN. It was in The Crawler's Nest, I was out nuking him everytime. Granted, if I wasn't wearing my Republic Circlet (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Republic_Circlet), he'd probably have beaten me, but not by much. All in all, I would say that it wasn't worth it.

BLM/NIN in EXP party is one of those job combinations that seems really cool, but in the end, /WHM or /RDM is much more useful.

Oh, and check out that Republic Circlet (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Republic_Circlet), hongman... you may want to consider that for your BLM gear if you're constantly leveling in regions controlled by your country.

EDIT: or even the NQ Bastokan Circlet (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Bastokan_Circlet)

[hongman]

Thanks Haggai....

4 months ago I would have said yes, but most often than not, Sandy is hardly ever 1 anymore...

[Haggai]

Thanks Haggai....

4 months ago I would have said yes, but most often than not, Sandy is hardly ever 1 anymore...
Oh, it doesn't matter if you're #1 or not... just as long as Sandy controls the area you are using it.

[Omni]

what kirsteena said, you'll be leaching. for blm and smn to not have curing in an xp situation is pretty much a leech.

everyone needs to be useful in xp and curing is important for those close calls.

[Sabaron]

I did BLM/NIN from 30-36 and it did nicely and I'll tell you what my impression was.

If you are going to do it, you have to actually use the jutsus otherwise you're just wasting the extra kick the sub gives. Each jutsu reduces the mob's resistance by 30. Therefore, when you follow-up with a nuke, you get fewer resists thus more efficient mp usage for nuking.

Between the /WHMing and the /NINing. As /WHM I cast cure probably once every 4-5 fights. I was always out of mp, and resists were frequent. I had to carefully control my nukes to make sure I didn't go over. With /NIN I always had extra mp (despite the smaller pool), my nukes rarely got resisted, and I got a small amount of [mp free] damage off the jutsus themselves (from the Magic Attack Bonus trait). I also always pushed one nuke beyond my hate limit using Utsusemi to protect myself. OMG says "Utsusemi won't save you from too much overnuking." In order to actually push that level...the level where 3 shadows and 1 solid punch to the jaw will leave you with hate, you'd have to be nuking the thing while it was beating on you... so just don't do that... As for the Clear Mind, OMG states that /WHM gives you Clear Mind.. It doesn't. Clear Mind of the same level does not stack. BLM always gets Clear Mind at a lower level than WHM, and BLM gets one more level (V) over WHM. /WHM never gets you Clear Mind and as I stated, pre-jutsuing the target will lower your resist rate which increases your damage/mp ratio.

I maintain that BLM/NIN is not selfish. It's smart especially if you already have two healers in the PT. PLD with WHM? BLM/NIN WHM with RDM? BLM/NIN. Another situation where BLM/NIN is nice is if you already have a BLM/WHM. set yourself up as BLM/NIN and the BLM/WHM can follow your spell wheel.

I used BLM/NIN from 30-36. Therefore, any reference to any other level range should not be implied in the above especially use of /NIN before access to elemental jutsus (which is wasteful imo). WHM sub at certain levels gives access to important spells (Level is your main BLM level) --Blink (38), Raise (50), Stoneskin (56), Erase (64), Reraise (66). Those have to be taken into consideration as well, especially since Blink and Stoneskin eliminate the need for Utsusemi: Ichi and an extra Erase can be immensely beneficial when you're dealing with certain AoE status attacks.

Saying that "you have to be useful" seems to indicate that other DD's should shirk their damage boosting sub job abilities in exchange for the occasional Cure II. Perhaps I should ask all those DRK/THFs to do that... Black Mage is not a support character. Of all the characters in the game, Black Mage is most purely DD. BLM has no defensive ability to speak of and his selection of spells is limited primarily to those that cause damage. Support characters, it can be argued, should have Cures. Damage Dealers should not be held to such a responsibility.

[IfritnoItazura]

Read Sabaron's post.

Clear Mind does not stack. Don't bother with /NIN if you don't use the -ton Ninjutsu's to lower resist.

Most of all, go as BLM/WHM if the party may need extra healing. My BLM is has a static party which includes a PLD and a RDM/WHM. I only exp as BLM/WHM--it's better for the party that I can use Regen, Cure II, Cure III, and Curaga. The -na and bar- spells are quite helpful, too, mob dependent.

[Omni]

It's smart especially if you already have two healers in the PT

In the perfect situation, /nin would probably be nice. I dont deny that, but in all seriousness how many ideal PTs have you gotten 1-40?

I took my BLM to 37 recently and honestly, if I didnt help heal every PT I had would probably be disbanded in 15minutes.

BLM from 30-36 IS even more important that you heal. The lack of true refresh in those levels has MP at a premium. All the help your healers can get would be even more significant. Throwing in a couple Cure IIs, maybe some status cures makes a big difference when your healers are mp starved after 2 fights.

I dont think lowering your resists % is worth giving up all the usefulness /whm can give you. DD shouldnt have the responsibilty I agree, but you know having someone to back you up in a bind means the difference between finishing off the mob or wiping. A Sam shouldnt be responsible for provoking but its sure nice to have that around at lower levels. Might save a BLM if the tank happens to go down.

[IfritnoItazura]

Saying that "you have to be useful" seems to indicate that other DD's should shirk their damage boosting sub job abilities in exchange for the occasional Cure II. Perhaps I should ask all those DRK/THFs to do that... Black Mage is not a support character. Of all the characters in the game, Black Mage is most purely DD. BLM has no defensive ability to speak of and his selection of spells is limited primarily to those that cause damage. Support characters, it can be argued, should have Cures. Damage Dealers should not be held to such a responsibility.

I liked the rest of your post, but this I disagree with strongly.

Support job choice is always situational--the best WAR I've ever met was a JP player who switched from WAR/NIN or something to WAR/WHM (she must have known our RDM was an idiot) for Yhoator Jungle. She backup healed (unlike the RDM/WAR), used bloody bolts to cure herself, and opened Distortion with a two-handed sword.

She "gimped" her damage output for the sake of the party--she adapted her setup and play style to enhance the party. That, is one smart player. I'd invite her on any job.

(The same JP player tanked better on BLU/WAR than 95% of tanks I had in Qufim Island, was top DD as BLM in another Yhoator Jungle party while backup healing... She is just awesome. Well, she's a Mithra, so probably a 'he' instead, but still... just awesome... I think the name is "Mizuki".)

* * *

DRK/WHM can be good, party depending. I used it in Valkurm Dunes to good effects, and a DRK friend of mine sent me tell during a somewhat broken Lv.60-something party that he wished he came as /WHM instead.

* * *

BLM is more flexible than "damage only", and it's a good thing.

The job have some native enfeebling and enhancing magic skills, allowing the players to be more than just DD when using /WHM or /RDM.

There's nothing wrong with being a "second chance" enfeebler, and help out with those spells when the RDM's paralyze or slow or something else didn't land on the first try. It's not like a BLM can open the fights with big nukes anyway. And, given the near uselessness of healing magic skill, a BLM/WHM makes a fine backup healer, too.

Put it this way; if the party has four DD's, and one of it is BLM, is it actually a good thing if the BLM does nothing but nuke? Keep in mind that means there's only room left for a one tank and one healer/support (WHM or RDM or... er... SMN?!). That's when a BLM should be very glad he is more than DD.

[Sabaron]

I did mention situational usefulness above. The specific issue I was addressing with that paragraph was the mention of the fact that it should be assumed that any BLM not subbing WHM is not "doing his duty" by providing curative assistance. In a PT where healing is "covered", the BLM's primary responsibility is to kill a given string of monsters with the absolute maximum efficiency. If it is necessary that a BLM (due to his high base mp pool and good mp regen) should heal, I stated above that paragraph that he should do so. I was merely addressing the specific statement that BLM has to sub WHM to be useful.

As for the 30-36 thing. The three parties I had for this level range consisted of a certain "core" group which is ideal for the situation:

These "ideal" cores are as follows:

Party 1: PLD tank, BLM/WHM, WHM/BLM
Party 2: NIN tank, RDM/WHM, WHM/BLM
Party 3: PLD tank, BRD/WHM, WHM/BLM

All three of these parties are well cored, in one case refreshed, and ideal for BLM/NIN. The BLM in Party 1 and the RDM in Party 2 were able to follow-nuke increasing output on damage in both cases. All parties were very efficient.

[Malacite]

Loss of Clear Mind (+hMP trait) from /WHM. Fast MP recovery = good

Clear Mind Traits do not stack, and BLM learns them at the same rate as SMN (which I find a bit odd >. >)

[Sabaron]

How appropriate an avatar...

Malachite from Sailor Moon...

[Theyaden]

Regarding the /nin on the mage job
http://www.datasync.com/~dsmith/FFXIStats/
Figuring level 30 blm with subjobs fully leveled here are your base stats for blm/nin blm/whm blm/sum I'm using elvan as the race since thats what I play with and I've played with the whm and sum sub for experimenting.
Level HP MP STR DEX VIT AGI INT MND CHA
blm/nin
30 437 225 30 31 28 29 31 30 28
blm/whm
30 430 259 29 28 27 27 31 34 30
blm/smn
30 414 285 28 29 26 27 33 33 31

Ninja gives you the ability to have an extra wand with +5 int and mind at the loss of healing ability. You also get shadows but if your riding the hate line properly they shouldn't be needed.
blm/whm is the most common combo to xp it gives you the ability to throw status repair and cures but has the same base int as nin at this level.
blm/sum gives the highest base intelegence, but is only by 2 at this level and the highest mana going from 225 as nin to 285 as summoner. Unfortunatly the lack of curative abilities and summoning magic at half strenght only being fit for carby pulls and at higher levels buffs like arial armor reduce the desirability of this sub as well.
Usually your best bet is whm since it gives the most bang for your buck in utility.

Sidenote: For the love of all things holy I realize it's fun to melee too, but that is not a mage jobs primary duty. Please don't bring /war or /nin to xp as a redmage /blm or /whm or even /smn add so much more to the job when in a party.

[Haggai]

And just for note, the BLM/NIN I mentioned was not using jutsu magic, just utsusemi.

[Sabaron]

Truly, /NIN is pointless without the Elejutsus.

[Malacite]

yup >. > that's where I got the name from, and no I'm not ashamed ^^ (Even though I misspelled my damn name @ the time > _ < wish I could change it and add the missing "H")

[massaranger]

If ur a dd blm why not /rdm for healing spells and the int bonus not to mention the fast cast and u also get the blink and stone skin and the def spells you need to keep ur self alive if a bomb toss for 900 goes off. You will deal more damage than with using those ichi jutsus.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I maintain that BLM/NIN is not selfish. It's smart especially if you already have two healers in the PT. PLD with WHM? BLM/NIN WHM with RDM? BLM/NIN. Another situation where BLM/NIN is nice is if you already have a BLM/WHM. set yourself up as BLM/NIN and the BLM/WHM can follow your spell wheel.

"If we have other two healer" is a crutch excuse for Job/non-EXP sub. Things get hectic in PTs, PTs feel safer when they know you're doing something to look out for them. They're not going to appreciate /NIN, when the WHM gets stuck in mid-cure and someone else dies. It happens, but that's not WHM droping the ball, that's you.

And if you have never main healed past 37, you just do not know what a drain status cures are to a healer's MP. If you're casting nukes and little else, you can back the WHM on status cures, there's no good excuse not to. If you have a NIN, you don't need to be tossing out elemental ninjutsu debuffs, the NIN needs to do that to keep hate, so you're being counterproductive to his tanking ability.

Saying that "you have to be useful" seems to indicate that other DD's should shirk their damage boosting sub job abilities in exchange for the occasional Cure II. Perhaps I should ask all those DRK/THFs to do that... Black Mage is not a support character. Of all the characters in the game, Black Mage is most purely DD. BLM has no defensive ability to speak of and his selection of spells is limited primarily to those that cause damage. Support characters, it can be argued, should have Cures. Damage Dealers should not be held to such a responsibility.

To quote Ben Parker, "With great power comes great responsibility."

You're telling me with all that MP that BLM shouldn't be expected for toss out a cure every now and then? Well, I hope you're not intending to pass the buck to RDM or SMN because they sure as hell don't want to main heal, yet are often expected to. BLUs sure as hell could do it, but for whatever reason, they get off the hook. All PTs expect of BLM is to support cure, what is so hard about that? That's easy as pie.

Yes, you are an offensive character with a LOT of MP, so is SMN. You're going to be doing some curing, deal with it. You aren't even saddled with the level of curing expected from SMN. I don't see why BLMs get so defensive about support curing when SMN is expected to main heal each and every time a WHM or RDM isn't available. SMNs are big damage dealers and they main heal, what's your excuse?

BRD and COR have a joke a manapool with WHM sub, barely enough MP to Raise somone pre-merit - BLM has MP to spare. If a WHM goes down and curing comes down to BRD and COR, your party is screwed. Best those two can do with /WHM is do status remove and the odd Cure II or III, they can't do much in an emergency. COR is very disadvantaged because they cannot simply overwrite Evoker's Roll with Evoker's Roll like BRDs can overwrite ballads, they have to cycle two new rolls to even get back to Evoker's, that's at least two minutes they're not getting MP back.

Telling melee to sub mage doesn't work, you need raw damage output and skillchains or there's no point to even having a BLM in PT. Melee have plenty of ways to support a PT, RNG, THF, WAR and DRK have access status bolts, THF and /THF can tranfer hate, DRK cripples the mob with thier own spells. DRG can sub mage and be an effective support healer, but they lose vital melee traits and abilities when they do so.

But they don't have lots of MP like BLM does. Seriously, it won't kill you to toss out a cure. The only place you should even be drawing a line is when people ask you to main heal as BLM. There is a bizarre trend on the JP side our community that is somehow willing to accept that, NA and EU BLMs apparently aren't that desparate nor should they be, because they are damage dealers.

But tell me you won't support cure and I won't be inviting you to PT. I manaburn with enough BLMs to which cureing allies is a foreign concept. I don't EXP with those BLMs again after I'm running around half dead for 15 minutes at a time.

[Sabaron]

Things I never said:

1. That BLM shouldn't cure when necessary.

2. That a COR should ever consider subbing WHM.

3. That anything I said pertained to any level range other than the one I specified (30-36)

4. That BRD was a "good" support healer (BRD has other options: Lullaby).

With respect to NIN's Elejutsus: Most nin's don't bother with them Pre-Ni, so you're on your own until then, and even if they are packing ele tools, you'll not be getting full wheel. Low level NIN's lose hate when using them.

I mentioned DRK for a reason. They have a native MP pool so they would be even more effective than a BRD at backup heal ;) Plus they have Aspir so in certain conditions can restore mp efficiently. BLM also carries huge hate levels. If something goes sour, a BLM can most likely not cure terribly much without going down as well. Then where are you? No sleep, no cure, no options.... Wipe and like it.

Having two other healers is not a crutch excuse. You are assuming that under conditions where flight is most likely the best option that the BLM should "save the day" as it were and heal instead of sleeping it and running away. BLM also uses mp more liberally than other jobs. BLM is not oft found carrying "extra" mp and is frequently sitting. As II said (and I most whole-heartedly agree), sub job is situational. You'll need to better define the term "crutch excuse"--the situation I gave is a sound, valid reason to sub /NIN, and you'll have to come up with something better than an off-handed insult to support your argument that /NIN is never appropriate for BLM.

[IfritnoItazura]

If ur a dd blm why not /rdm for healing spells and the int bonus not to mention the fast cast and u also get the blink and stone skin and the def spells you need to keep ur self alive if a bomb toss for 900 goes off. You will deal more damage than with using those ichi jutsus.

Ichi level -ton spells is not used for the pitiful damages they themselves give; it's used to lower the resistance to particular elements. By doing that, a BLM's nuke would be less resisted, and thus get better damage per MP spent.

If there's a stronger support job than /NIN a BLM can use to better push up damage/MP ratio, I don't know it.

* * *

Since Sabaron clarified his stance, I'm in agreement with him on this: BLM/NIN is situational, and those situations do exist. Though I've only seen it done once in party, that JP BLM picked the right party to do it in, and it worked out very well.

However, DRK/WHM is a worse backup healer than BLM/WHM. They just don't have as much opportunity to rest for MP, and they'd lose TP for resting outside of Signet area. At low level, juices can make up for it especially in shorter duration parties. At higher level, it's a lot harder unless the DRK gets full time refresh.

However, as a RDM69, I'd rather a DRK go as /THF or /WAR, and we get a WHM or BRD. I'll keep the WHM Refreshed, or even the BRD--less enmity problem with BRD curing instead of the DRK, that's for sure.

As a BLM53, though, I will say this about curing--if the party needs curing from me, then curing is higher priority than my damage output. There may be other BLM's who rather make the party stop the exp chain to recharge the overburdened healer's MP and/or risk death of the tank than tossing out a few cures themselves, but I'm just not one of them. :P

[Malacite]

If there's a stronger support job than /NIN a BLM can use to better push up damage/MP ratio, I don't know it.


Well, now we have SCH so.... yay! ^^

BLM/NIN and NIN/BLM for the win!

... that is all.

[Magoo]

Edit: D'oh - I didn't realize the prior conversations were from months ago. Cutting out the irrelevant parts and updating my response now~

Just last night I was leveling my lvl 29 black mage in E.Altepa and due to my level I couldn't land an unresisted nuke to save my life even with the best gear available. If I had been 30+ in a similar situation, subbing nin might have been more advantageous than scholar if it would have significantly reduced my resist rates.

Maybe once I hit 30 I'll play around with the beetles and try to get some numbers both with and without EJ:I. My party disbanded with me about 150 xp short :x

[Sabaron]

The actual debate on this thread ended several months ago. It's a necro from April. What Malacite wants to discuss is the usefulness of BLM/NIN in light of the new possibility: BLM/SCH, and I think I'll put myself on the side in favor of BLM/SCH > BLM/NIN.

With respect to the new issue brought up by Malacite which is /SCH:

/SCH has a lot to offer and squashes /NIN very effectively.

/NIN is not useful until 30th level when you get access to Ichi Elemental Jutsus (EJ:I), while /SCH is useful at 20th level with Dark Arts.

Dark Arts gives the following bonuses:

MP Cost -10%
Casting Time -5% to -10%
Recast Time -10%The other effects of Dark Arts are immaterial to a BLM's Nuking abilities.

EJ:I give only one bonus: -30 Resistance for 8 seconds (enough for one cast of any Tier III or lower single target nuke or Tier II or lower AoE nuke (Tier III AoE is getting very very close to 8 seconds casting time).

What else does /SCH give?

Parsimony @ 20th level: 50% MP cost savings every 4 minutes.
Alacrity @ 50th level: 50% faster casting and recast times every 4 minutes.

Cures up to tier III.
Stealth Spells
Regen up to tier II.
Shell and Protect up to tier II.
Raise

My original argument is that /NIN improves your MP/HP efficiency and at the time was a good one because /NIN was the only reliable way to do that before your Ninja tanks start tossing EJ: Ni. The bonuses from /SCH are quite formidable and definitely worthy of the new "BLM Nuking Efficiency Blue Ribbon". I'm not sure if anyone has done any significant testing on Magic Accuracy and Resistance, but I'm thinking -30 resistance is going to equate to something less valuable than a 10% MP Cost reduction on every spell plus a 50% reduction to one spell every 4 minutes. This notwithstanding the myriad of other abilities /SCH gets and the decreased likelihood that BLM/SCH will cause wild thrashing and hand-wringing among the /WHM purist crowd though complaints about lack of Status cures are expected even though my point only deals with maximization of MP efficiency of nuking and not adding to BLM's supporting role.

IMO, BLM/NIN is effectively dead... Gunned down by BLM/SCH in a late-night nuke fight unless someone can show me numbers for Resistance/Magic Accuracy rates and numerically define how much "Chutzpah" -30 Resistance has.

---------------------------------

One other thing to remember: Choosing /SCH leaves you completely defenseless--No Blink, no Stoneskin--nothing between you and slavering beastly jaws but some Shock Spikes and a temporary tattoo (weskit).

[Coinspinner]

I'd like to add this. Even with a PT setup and target that makes BLM/NIN viable or ideal (unlikely now due to /SCH), if you don't know and/or trust the people you are grouped with to do their jobs you should still come /WHM. Sometimes a PT looks pretty tight while you're in town then you reach the camp and it crashes and burns. Fighting Torama, I once had a WHM who took 20-30 seconds to cure status even while standing... which he persisted at even after I started handling all the status cures myself.

Well, now we have SCH so.... yay! ^^
BLM/NIN and NIN/BLM for the win!
... that is all.

BLM/SCH will improve nuke efficiency and grant Cures, sure, but it lacks any defense for the BLM himself. Yet another situational alterna-sub.

It's a pity SCH itself doesn't have MAB, or I'd try out SCH/NIN.

Edit: Oops, didn't see the third page.

[IfritnoItazura]

Playing Scholar in Valkrum Dunes, I noticed in one party that the Tarutaru BLM was consistently nuking harder than my Mithra, probably due to Magic Attack Bonus, while our resist rates and degree were roughly the same.

I won the the damage game anyway--with ease.

Why's that? I had a larger MP pool thanks to years worth of low level MP gears I had accumulated, an MP merit, Melon Pie (vs. his Ginger Cookies), some occasional Pineapple Juices, plus the MP saving from Dark Arts. Combined, I could nuke more. A lot more.

Nukers at that level rely on chain casting a series of small spells (tier 1!) every fight, and can count on party resting every few fights if not after after every fight. So, anything which contributes to the ability to keep tossing out spells--such as a larger MP pool and Dark Arts--helps out overall damage greatly.

But, my BLM experience tells me it's not a sustainable strategy.

Fast forward to when the time consuming tier III single target or tier II -ga spells and chain 5 parties, and the resist rate will matter a lot more. You won't have as much time to replenish MP, so economizing the Damage/MP ratio would likely have a greater impact than relying on a deeper MP reserve.

Nothing a BLM himself can do to lower resist beyond piling on Elemental Magic skill, which is sadly unavailable at Lv.30. (Lv.35 has the very expensive Elemental Earring, which I can't afford. -_- I don't expect others to have it, either.) Except /NIN, that is, and the -ton Ninjutsu set which comes with it.

I don't think BLM/SCH will blow BLM/NIN out of water. BLM/SCH definitely has its shining moments, but so does BLM/NIN, still. That said, BLM/SCH would be easier to play "correctly", and the ability to cure in emergency has my nod as the more recommended of the two choices.

In random PUGs, though, I'd still go with BLM/WHM myself. >_>; The melees do enough damage these days to make my MP more valuable for cures and status removal than damage, at least some of the times.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

You're forgetting some things /SCH will give:

- 10% off cost of spells under Dark/Light Arts, this is way more signifigant for higher tier spells than it is lower tier.

- 50% off Cost of spells every four minutes. That's as good as it'll ever get since /SCH only lets you store one strategem.

/NIN isn't really that useful after 30 for BLM. Halved ninjutsu skill - enough said. You'll see more resists the higher you get. MAB might get you a little love for a little while, but those tricks will mean nothing at 50+.

[IfritnoItazura]

I didn't forget the advantages of /SCH (esp. since Sabaron listed them two posts before mine), but there's just not that much time for casting, even with Dark Arts's fast cast. In any case, it's all speculation at this point; need people with actual party experience to report how the two compare.

Agreed that /NIN's -ton spells would be less meaningful post Lv.51, with elemental staves available.

* * *

Plus, even if /NIN would win the damage contest at some levels (as I think it would), I'd still recommend /SCH over it for most people. The ability to toss out a few cures every now and then is just too useful to ignore.

[Malacite]

/NIN is really more of a soloing SJ now (always was, just more so now)

Also, doesn't Dark Arts boost your skills above their normal caps? (If they're B+ or higher)

[IfritnoItazura]

/NIN is really more of a soloing SJ now (always was, just more so now)
Unfortunately, I saw a very effective BLM/NIN in a Lv.32-ish party before. I was BLM/WHM, and he blew me away. ._.

So, no, it's not for every party, but it can work in some parties.

Also, doesn't Dark Arts boost your skills above their normal caps? (If they're B+ or higher)
No. >_>;

As BLM56/SCH19:
Divine: 52
Healing: 52
Enhancing: 153
Enfeebling: 178
Elemental: 185
Dark: 183
(All capped)

With Dark Arts active:
Divine: 52
Healing: 52
Enhancing: 153
Enfeebling: 184
Elemental: 185
Dark: 183

The only skill boost a BLM/SCH on Dark Arts gets is to Enfeebling Magic.

[Malacite]

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/scholar/69403-scholar-support-job-nerf-imminent.html

Yeah you're right, I just misread the pics in the OP >< (didn't see the switch from WHM to RDM lol)

Even still, dark arts is bad ass.

[Sabaron]

Playing Scholar in Valkrum Dunes, I noticed in one party that the Tarutaru BLM was consistently nuking harder than my Mithra, probably due to Magic Attack Bonus, while our resist rates and degree were roughly the same.

I won the the damage game anyway--with ease.

Why's that? I had a larger MP pool thanks to years worth of low level MP gears I had accumulated, an MP merit, Melon Pie (vs. his Ginger Cookies), some occasional Pineapple Juices, plus the MP saving from Dark Arts. Combined, I could nuke more. A lot more.

Nukers at that level rely on chain casting a series of small spells (tier 1!) every fight, and can count on party resting every few fights if not after after every fight. So, anything which contributes to the ability to keep tossing out spells--such as a larger MP pool and Dark Arts--helps out overall damage greatly.

But, my BLM experience tells me it's not a sustainable strategy.

Fast forward to when the time consuming tier III single target or tier II -ga spells and chain 5 parties, and the resist rate will matter a lot more. You won't have as much time to replenish MP, so economizing the Damage/MP ratio would likely have a greater impact than relying on a deeper MP reserve....

So in your opinion, BLM/NIN is still viable at 30-39 range before EJ: Ni and 40-50 depending on whether or not you have a NIN tank who is cycling EJ: Ni? You don't think the 10% and 50% cost savings will come up better than -30 Resistance?

I still want to know what the value of a point of resistance is, but I don't think anyone knows with any certainty.

[IfritnoItazura]

So in your opinion, BLM/NIN is still viable at 30-39 range before EJ: Ni and 40-50 depending on whether or not you have a NIN tank who is cycling EJ: Ni? You don't think the 10% and 50% cost savings will come up better than -30 Resistance?
Don't know for sure, but I suspect lower resistance would give better performance. Definitely not for parting with a proper NIN tank Lv.40-50-something, spamming the wheel. (Think we already covered that aspect, didn't we?)

Basically, it comes to which is more valuable: Time, or MP, or Versatility?

If "Time": /NIN may win.
If "MP": /SCH definitely should win.
If "Versatility": /WHM wins!

For PUGs, BLM/WHM is still the most versatile, but /SCH is still much safer than /NIN and easier to use.

[Krut]

At the end of the day, a blm who is unable to toss out the odd cure to help out your party is just leeching. -Kirsteena

Leeching? You mean like shortening fight time by roughly 1/3 becuase we do massive damage? hmm yeah I CAN see how that is leeching.

Take for instance your tank sucks, and doesn't turn say, a tiger, away from the mages. Whm gets caught in Roar (AoE Paralyze effect). That whm can't get paralyna off, because they are paralyzed. Blm should have ability to throw out paralyna, doesn't. -Kirsteena

In your standard party the mages stand together, our blm friend here would be paralyzed too, and unable to toss out aformentioned spell.

Even at endgame, on blm, most of the time I am on /whm...etc. -Kirsteena

Yeah this guy is level 33... he hasnt even seen the elemental staves for blm yet, basically +int is gonna be all he can do to build his spell potentcy. /nin is gonna give him the same INT boost (base) as /whm and give him the ability for another 5 on top of it. Endgame is endgame. As /rdm at 75 i'm only getting ~2 more INT than as WHM anyways, but I'm a taru so INT means crap to me i stack up on MA+ and skill+

/rdm is a soloing, not a party sub.-Kirsteena

I agree except in Manaburn.

Sub what you want, as a black mage it isn't going to change your job much, because at the end of the day everyone is just gonna call us to party so we can blow s#!t up.

Final Note
Kirsteena, seems like I disagreed with you a lot. Well I did in a few spots however not completely because I'd like to make it clear that I am a tarutaru, one race which has difficulty in neither INT or MP. I'd like to quote a good friend of mine.
"If you're an elvaan, and you're a black mage.. you might as well just jump off a bridge.."-Willium of Garuda

[IfritnoItazura]

Yeah this guy is level 33...
You're a bit behind the times; the OP was made back in May.

That poster is RDM75 now, and least BLM61--he was asking question about Sorcerer's Ring a week or two ago, as a matter of fact. Don't worry about him being "not advanced enough".

The discussion has moved on from INT+ wands, as well.

In your standard party the mages stand together, our blm friend here would be paralyzed too, and unable to toss out aformentioned spell.
No standard party works like that--only bad parties with idiots. (And, no, not all parties are full of idiots.) Mages don't care much about Blind, STR down, and other melee related status effects., but they pretty much have always stay away from front lines battling monsters with AoE damage, silence, paralyze, sleep, etc.

If you haven't been doing that yourself, I highly recommend it. >_>;

[Krut]

The whole party full of idiots thing was uncalled for, If your Tank loses hate, and hes goin after your whm, the AOE (No matter what it was) is gonna hit everyone because there is no camp (that I can remember) with a wide enough camp area to avoid this (Exception for puk and imp camps)

I'm going to agree with you though, fighting mobs with AOE status effects as bad as paralyze then you're asking for trouble.

Sorry about posting about a post that was months ago lol I didn't realize this was a 3-pager.

Lets face it though, blms are better off soloing or manaburning
and before you start chirping with OMG HE SAID SOLO lol. I soloed 30-65 manaburned 65-67 soloed 67-73 manaburn 73-74 solo 74-75. Now I merit in nothing but manaburns because everyone else seems unclear on black mage abilities.

[hongman]

["If you're an elvaan, and you're a black mage.. you might as well just jump off a bridge.."-Willium of Garuda


This pretty much invalidates anything you say, if you can even quote that you are obviously very shallow :x

[Krut]

Well ur not gonna sit there and tell me, in the end all merited and all geared towards black mage supremeness, that of all the races Elv isn't pretty sloppy compared to the other races as blm.

I'll be the first to say I'd prefer a Galkan or Elvaan PLD over a taru
Or a Mithra ninja over all other races.
Call me crazy but id prefer base INT of 79 over 67 and base MP of 858 over 599 for a blm. That's just my opinion.

I'd take a Galkan BLM over an Elvaan BLM any day of the week.

[IfritnoItazura]

If your Tank loses hate, and hes goin after your whm, the AOE (No matter what it was) is gonna hit everyone because there is no camp (that I can remember) with a wide enough camp area to avoid this (Exception for puk and imp camps)
Don't know how bad is it on your server, but if I see a monster goes after a White Mage once every three fight or more often, I'd call it a terrible tank, stupid WHM, or both.

I soloed 30-65 manaburned 65-67 soloed 67-73 manaburn 73-74 solo 74-75. Now I merit in nothing but manaburns
Sounds like you haven't seen much of regular parties? I assure you people still fight monsters with AoE attacks, and, no, the mages aren't supposed to be hit with them.

[Krut]

Dp.

[hongman]

Well ur not gonna sit there and tell me, in the end all merited and all geared towards black mage supremeness, that of all the races Elv isn't pretty sloppy compared to the other races as blm.

I'll be the first to say I'd prefer a Galkan or Elvaan PLD over a taru
Or a Mithra ninja over all other races.
Call me crazy but id prefer base INT of 79 over 67 and base MP of 858 over 599 for a blm. That's just my opinion.

I'd take a Galkan BLM over an Elvaan BLM any day of the week.

Nope, I'm not gonna sit here and tell you that you are wrong. What I will tell you is in a typical endgame LS (hell, any LS), you line all the BLM's up, and no 2 will have the exact same merits, gear or skill.

You should, by now, know that Race means absolutely fuck all if the person playing knows what the hell they are doing. Ever heard the saying, SKill > Race?

Racial differences doesnt equate to a lot of damage difference at 75 with all the endgame pieces.

lol, I think I'm done for this topic :x

[Krut]

I disagree.
Godly parties where everything constantly goes according to plan are rare.
If they arn't where you come from, toss me a server name and i'll jump over.
------------------------------------------
Skill>Equipment>Race.
and when i can out skill most blms.
out equip most blms.
at the end of the day i'd like to out race them too.

[IfritnoItazura]

Well ur not gonna sit there and tell me, in the end all merited and all geared towards black mage supremeness, that of all the races Elv isn't pretty sloppy compared to the other races as blm.

I'll be the first to say I'd prefer a Galkan or Elvaan PLD over a taru
Or a Mithra ninja over all other races.
Call me crazy but id prefer base INT of 79 over 67 and base MP of 858 over 599 for a blm. That's just my opinion.

I'd take a Galkan BLM over an Elvaan BLM any day of the week.

I'd call you shortsighted instead.

Player skill, knowledge, and gear are so much more important than race, it's only a slight hyperbole to call race an round-off error outside of HP and MP. Even for those stats, I'd rather have good players over the "perfect race"--1500 max MP or max HP on a bad player will do you no good if they are dead on the ground or wiped the party/alliance due to idiocy.

No one things makes a player skilled: reflex, knowledge, gears, set up--they all have to come together. Race is about the last thing out of a long list of desirable traits to worry over.

[Krut]

I'd say +250ish MP is a pretty desireable thing for one blm to have instead of not having.
I don't care play how you want it's your money.

[Sabaron]

I'd say +250ish MP is a pretty desireable thing for one blm to have instead of not having.
I don't care play how you want it's your money.

Are you going to spam out all of that MP? If you actually use it all, you'll probably get eaten by your target, so it doesn't really matter as it doesn't functionally limit your use of spells. Either way you have to restore it, and once you start resting/refreshing, you have functionally the same MP pool as any other race--even Galka. It's all about how fast you get your MP back, not how much you can bank.

hMP > MP

The time when it matters is when you're soloing and you need to finish off a mob completely with one bar of mp. That's what pie and ice cream are for--as long as the mob dies before your mp is gone it's all cool. Of course, the 250 buffer is good, granted, as a safety net, but surely not necessary.

[Coinspinner]

A player's choice of race has no impact on his level of skill. All BLM players, skillful or not, will perform better as Taru. There have been countless times when even another 100 MP would have saved me a load of Sleep&Heal time or just "saved" me period. And I believe the difference from Mithra is closer to 200.

Edit: O_o What food gives 200 MP? I want some of that. Best I know of is Bijou Glace, 90 MP for 6K gil.

[hongman]

Given, if the same person played a Elvaan BLM and a Taru BLM, Taru would win. But this guy's quote was "If you're an Elf BLM you might as well jump off a bridge" - anyone who has half a brain knows there isnt that much difference in racial stats in endgame.

Last post on this "debate", it's so 2006.

[Krut]

Are you going to spam out all of that MP? If you actually use it all, you'll probably get eaten by your target, so it doesn't really matter as it doesn't functionally limit your use of spells. Either way you have to restore it, and once you start resting/refreshing, you have functionally the same MP pool as any other race--even Galka. It's all about how fast you get your MP back, not how much you can bank.

hMP > MP

The time when it matters is when you're soloing and you need to finish off a mob completely with one bar of mp. That's what pie and ice cream are for--as long as the mob dies before your mp is gone it's all cool. Of course, the 250 buffer is good, granted, as a safety net, but surely not necessary.

2 words
-mana
-burn

The other Jobs seem to have decided we have no business being in another party on a regular bases, so a group of 4 blms a rdm and a brd seem quite apt to chain out way to merits. There is rarely a situation in manaburns where over nuking is a problem it's been months since anyone died in a manaburn i was part of.

I'm a big fan of experimenting with all other kinds of subjobs, but once i start agreeing with you in that you are going to hafta start playing the way everyone else wants you to play you start telling me i'm wrong, make up your minds.

[Malacite]

Race only really hurts you as a BLM in the lower levels.

By end game (And I have both a taru and elvaan blm tyvm) your skill and especially your gear/merits are going to matter a hell of a lot more than a few points of INT and MP (and for the sake of argument, Elvaan have something like 120 more MP than Galka for just 2-3 less INT. Big deal)


For example, even a Taru's (I think it's around 10-12 by 75? It's a BIG gap to be sure but still) INT won't matter if the Elvaan in question has an H.Q. staff vs the Taru's N.Q., or what have you.

[Magoo]

2 words
-mana
-burn

The other Jobs seem to have decided we have no business being in another party on a regular bases, so a group of 4 blms a rdm and a brd seem quite apt to chain out way to merits. There is rarely a situation in manaburns where over nuking is a problem it's been months since anyone died in a manaburn i was part of.

I'm a big fan of experimenting with all other kinds of subjobs, but once i start agreeing with you in that you are going to hafta start playing the way everyone else wants you to play you start telling me i'm wrong, make up your minds.

Sabaron's point that MP regeneration is far more important is still valid for mana burn parties. The *only* time having a bigger MP pool is in any way beneficial is right after a full rest up until you've spent that extra MP - and honestly, how long does it take you to spend 250 MP? After that, you get your MP back at the same rate as the galka. My black mage isn't high enough to have experienced an endgame manaburn party, but do you really stop for full rests that often? I can't imagine that would make for very good xp/hour.

An SUV has a huge gas tank compared to a hybrid car, but in the long run you'll spend a lot less time (and money) at the gas station if you own the hybrid.

[Necropolis]

While the small base difference in INT and MP will always make a taru BLM slightly better than an Elvaan BLM in the same exact gear/merits; it's really neglible.
A more important consideration would be that of the Ugg pendant. Since it activates at <50% mp, an elvaan activates this a bit quicker than taru. 8MAB over the two spells I think would bring up thier damage per mana; but might not compensate for the extra damage from both the extra int and MP a taru has. But really, the difference would slight.

The little perks of being a taru BLM over any other race only allows for the taru to slack a little on gear before being noticably gimp. While other races know thier weaknesses and spend the time and effort aquiring harder to obtain pieces, I notice more tarus in full NQ. To say Elvaans can't outdamage tarus is pathetic attempt of bolstering you own self esteem I think, because I've seen an elvaan outdamge plenty of tarus.

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/1/310301910.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=7414531)
Alpsyche is the Elvaan, Nizzy is the taru.

[Celeal]

The only application of BLM/NIN in exp. party that I can think of is exp. on Colibri that reflect magic (below level 70, non-merit parties, in theory).

[Olorin401]

The little perks of being a taru BLM over any other race only allows for the taru to slack a little on gear before being noticably gimp. While other races know thier weaknesses and spend the time and effort aquiring harder to obtain pieces, I notice more tarus in full NQ. To say Elvaans can't outdamage tarus is pathetic attempt of bolstering you own self esteem I think, because I've seen an elvaan outdamge plenty of tarus.
As an Elvaan BLM75, I can say I've outnuked a few Tarus. It really comes down to a combination of your merits, the quality of your gear, and how you optimize your gear through macros to get the most out of your nukes. Really in the end the one thing Tarus really have going for them is that they can skip MP+ and/or INT+ gear to get more skill or MAB.

[Sabaron]

The only application of BLM/NIN in exp. party that I can think of is exp. on Colibri that reflect magic (below level 70, non-merit parties, in theory).

I've seen it. It does ok, but it can be hazardous. Your tank has to be NIN because he'll end up eating nukes on occasion. The BLM I did this with focused on AM and tried his best to waste the mob with his cast so it didn't get a chance to mime. The tank had to eat Flare a couple of times--this can be very dangerous if the tank doesn't have hate when your AM goes off and it ends up on the poor little Taru WHM or a front-liner that doesn't have any shadows.

[Electricity Gone Human]

I just ended up thinking that BLM/NIN, in light of this discussion, that it could be a potential puller when in an EXP Party, similar to how BRD/NIN pulls.

Rest assured, this would end up giving the BLM a big hate spike if using big nukes to pull with. This would mean one would have to use either a low-damage nuke to prevent the hate from going all over the place, even when the BLM's utsusemi is still up. Even craftier would be pulling with elejutsus so hate doesn't bounce, and then start nuking from there.

Another flaw presents itself, though: MP Management. They would need to keep their MP above a good percentage so they're ready to pull right before the monster is dead. Ginger/Wizard Cookies a-go-go-go.

Gear sets would also have to be something to take in consideration.

This is just entirely situational however, when the lack of pullers LFGing presents itself.

[IfritnoItazura]

I just ended up thinking that BLM/NIN, in light of this discussion, that it could be a potential puller when in an EXP Party, similar to how BRD/NIN pulls.

Or, just Stun and run. >_>; Can go /RDM for Gravity as well.

Either way, I don't think I want a BLM to volunteer to pull. Of course, given how few melees carry ranged weapons these days, I'd probably end up asking one to do with Poison or something so instead of the good ol' Provoke-pull. :wasted:

[Vyuru]

Out of curisosity, may have been mentioned earlier.

I know that nin/blm ninjutsu gains a boost from magic attack bonus, what does ninjutsu do as blm/nin?

[Armando]

I know that nin/blm ninjutsu gains a boost from magic attack bonus, what does ninjutsu do as blm/nin?Debuffs the mob's elemental resistance by -30 for 15 seconds.

[Necropolis]

Out of curisosity, may have been mentioned earlier.

I know that nin/blm ninjutsu gains a boost from magic attack bonus, what does ninjutsu do as blm/nin?

If you're talking about the damage from the elemental nukes, it's neglible. While it gets boosted by MAB and even INT, it's also based on skill in part. Since a blm/nin's skill will always be capped at half of what it should be the damage isn't really noticible. It's main draw for blms is the resistance down for thier next nuke, which can help lower resistance, but doesn't really up damage either if the blm is correctly geared.

Personally I like BLM/NIN. It has plenty of potential in parties, but unfortunatly it's place is not in PUGs or even most LS parties. It's nice for soloing also to ensure a sleep gets off, it gives a nice INT boost, it allows duel wield wands for the pre-staves levels. If properly played in the correct party setup (including properly geared and mental aware party members) it can be a nice addition. The problem, as stated, is rarely do you get those prerequisites to even attempt going to a party that way. And the truth of the matter is that it doesn't really increase effeciently enough to warrent it's place.

Yes the BLM does more damage, but they also have less MP. So in the end they spend just as much time sitting where as a blm/rdm or blm/whm would get another cast or two off while doing slightly less damage. It won't boost the exp/hr up a noticable amount, and it runs the risk of being dangerous and damage the exp/hr ratio without having a back up heal.

It works, but the only reason I use it is when I am bored with the typical BLM in exp party situations and want to try something else for a while with friends

The reasons I love blm/nin for soloing is that it grants a guaranteed 3 (or 9 post Ni levels) free hits. Given my inventory is always lacking in room, it's nice for blms that don't want to carry a MND build for stoneskin. It works for Newton bats where if you're left with a sliver of life on that bat (that will most likely take stoneskin in 1 hit and resist your sleep) you can get a T2 or T3 nuke off before shadows are down. It works on goldfish in sea (I tanked Jailor of Prudence for quiet a while /nin). I can solo Jailor of Fortitude as /Nin as well. It just isn't effecient enough to be a viable exp party sub, especially in PUGs.

As for a BLM puller. If you're in a party with a BLM post 50 (which I find rare) it's already a slower party. It can be a fun and effective party, don't get me wrong, but it's slower than a typical burn style party. Why would you want to have one of the biggest DDs standing when he should be getting MP? While a quick poison may work, I think it would be much better to send one of the wars back to town to get a level 14 boomerang and tell him to put the bomb core away for a bit. 100 extra MP that the BLM could have can more than make up for the little loss of attack power the war (or any DD) would lose.

[Electricity Gone Human]

Or, just Stun and run. >_>; Can go /RDM for Gravity as well.
Either way, I don't think I want a BLM to volunteer to pull. Of course, given how few melees carry ranged weapons these days, I'd probably end up asking one to do with Poison or something so instead of the good ol' Provoke-pull. :wasted:
Of course. Like I said, it's totally situational. ;)

[Kirsteena]

I came to this late (blame it on absence and frustrations), and wtf? Why drag up something I commented on so long ago and a very specific thing?

All I will say is Elvaan blm functions just as well as any other blm with the right merits etc. Hell, I was outparsing a highly merited taru blm on KS99 Wyrm on Friday, and not by a small amount. Next round he outparsed me, then a hume outparsed us both. Anyone who still thinks race has something to do with how you play your job needs to get his head out of his arse and into 2008.

Always remember the phrase - shit is situational.

Anyhow, back off to my quiet corner.

[Karinya]

Given, if the same person played a Elvaan BLM and a Taru BLM, Taru would win.
Win what? A Deadly Hold for 2k?

Anyone who got out of Yuhtunga alive should know that there is more to BLM than "do as much damage as possible as fast as possible". Other race BLMs are often still alive casting Sleepga II while the tarus are all sucking dirt. If you don't think that's valuable to a linkshell, then I'm glad you and I aren't in any of the same linkshells. Some of the best BLMs I know are mithra, humes and elvaan - and yes, a few galka too.
But this guy's quote was "If you're an Elf BLM you might as well jump off a bridge" - anyone who has half a brain knows there isnt that much difference in racial stats in endgame.
Last post on this "debate", it's so 2006.
Add to that the fact that when you need more BLMs, you need more BLMs no matter what race they are. I used to be in an LS with an Elvaan PLD and BLM. He was sometimes asked to leave the Aegis in his MH and bring his BLM, depending on the fight and how many other tanks and BLMs showed up - because he was actually good at both jobs.