So what can be done to make support classes more attractive to players?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

See title.

I'd like to see some genuine ideas outside of "let them be more capable DDs" or "make COR less expensive" because I don't think those are good reasons or addtions. I don't want to hear new job suggestions either, that's another topic.

People complain about the lack of BRD, RDM and COR. RDMs outnumber the others by a wide margin, BRD is more populatated than it used to be - I'd say there was a 25-33% increase as of ToA. COR is expensive, so that scares people away those that want to be a super DD that buffs.

In fact, I think COR is starting to fall behind PUP in population.

They all have refresh and dispel. RDM is a great soloist. BRD and CORs are rolling in merits like a happy pig in the mud. So I'm not seeing why they should get more than what they have now (COR Group 2 merits notwithstanding).

But apparently something needs to be done to get more out there, in addtion to more WHM. I like COR as is, no competition in sight for endgame right now >.>

[IfritnoItazura]

Visually notable exp bonus (as in "You received 15 _Corsair_ bonus experience points!" after battle) for under populated jobs. So, if you're the only PUP or DRG or RDM or something within LV.49-51, you get 100 extra exp per kill. Or something.

No one will ever complain about a his job being unpopular again. :biggrin:

(Note: I'm not serious.)

[Feba]

The thing is, most people just don't want to play support. They want to be the one pumping out big numbers, or taking punches like a boxer. They want their work to show up on a parser, something concrete, or say 'here look, I own.'

I bet if SE removed Player->Mob damage numbers (or at least, the ones in the text log, keeping the popups MAYBE) DDs would be less popular, simply because of e-peen deflation.

[Necropolis]

While I think the majority prefer to play a DD role, I believe there are plenty of people who play support. Really all you need is 2 support for every 4 DD/tank jobs.

Most parties will be functional with a Cor & Rdm, Rdm & Whm, or Whm & Cor, Brd & Cor, Brd & whm, Brd & Whm. The problem lies in that support roles in general level much faster than DD classes. While a DD will often take any party they get invited to, a Support class can be more selective because they know another invite is right around the corner.

A lot of the issues come from an elitism attitude from support role players. They know they are needed, and there for they can dictate what jobs they will play with. While it's a players choice, it still leaves the lolpup, loldrg, loldrk, lolflavor-of-the-week LFP.

I don't think that any particular class should be favorable over another, but that is not the case. A bard, no matter what level, just has to log in to get an invite. While a pup will go days without so much as a /tell.

Perhaps a solution lies in permiting varients to party setups that were not typical in the past. A pup perhaps having control to set his pet to be main healer for the whole party. Or Drg's Healing Breath being more of a curaga. That way a party could be just as sufficient with a fewer number of support classes avaliable.

As to a way to make Support Jobs themselves more desireable, I'm not sure there is a way. There is nothing wrong with the jobs themselves, but rather people's view of them. If you can level Mnk or War and make the same great exp/hr without having to put in the effort that a brd, cor, whm, or rdm put in, why would you?

Of course there are players that enjoy that role (myself being one of them), and short of making things easier, so that even a cave man could do it type easy, I don't see a way of changing a person's outlook on a job.

If I could just cast parlynaga, instead of paralyna X4, or Hastega instead of Haste X4, or Refreshga, instead of Refresh X4, perhaps that would change people's view. If Cors and Brds could have 4 rolls/songs up at a time, and didn't have to worry about positioning players, that could appeal to the masses. But you would likely take away the challenge from players that enjoy their rolls as is.

I'm sleepy and starting to ramble, but I hope what I said made some sentient logic to at least one person.

[Murphie]

The only way to make them more attractive to players is to change the players themselves. Aversion to support classes isn't unique to FFXI. Some players just don't want to be the one providing less tangible benefit to the party. Damage done is measurable. Of course, so is damage healed. But the benefits that other jobs provide? Not so much.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Visually notable exp bonus (as in "You received 15 _Corsair_ bonus experience points!" after battle) for under populated jobs. So, if you're the only PUP or DRG or RDM or something within LV.49-51, you get 100 extra exp per kill. Or something.

No one will ever complain about a his job being unpopular again. :biggrin:

(Note: I'm not serious.)

I sometimes wish SE would have just made Corsair Roll a job trait so the noobs would stop asking me for the gimmick buff and not the good ones that actually rake in more EXP per hour. Call it "Luck of the Corsair" or something. Give it an activation rate based on when they hit Lucky Numbers.

I'm not rolling it unless I'm in a really killer manaburn where I can warrant dropping another buff due to killspeed. 5 BLMs are usually pretty easy to hit, they don't wander til after chain #3. Plus they got dicked on invites for at least 25 levels of their career.

[Vyuru]

They want their work to show up on a parser, something concrete, or say 'here look, I own.'


I dunno, I took pride in the fact that as rdm so long as I never ran out of mp the party never had any down time, I own so much as rdm I don't need no stinking parser to show how much I owned :P

More seriously, what if some of the other jobs got refresh/+hmp abilities?

Like Summoner for instance, what if Leviathan's Healing Spring is it? Also gave a refresh effect as well as restored hp? Maybe another summon could give +hhp/hmp effects.

Why not give Chakra a similar effect? Make it AoE, restores X amount of hp/mp, and gives +hhp/hmp. Sure it is only on a 10 minute timer, but every bit helps, and honestly I never see monks use Chakra or Chi Blast in parties, ever, even when they are hurt and we're just twiddling our thumbs waiting for the whm to regain mp to heal us.

I would like it if dragoon gained a few more support ability tweaks so that with the right subjob perhaps, it could be played like Corsair, but I don't know how well that would work, and hey I'm just a big Freya fan boy (Kain who? :P )

What if instead of making support classes more interesting, we improved or added new job abilities to the already existing ones in an effort to make support jobs just that, support. Right now rdm is a support job, but most mages and paladins consider refresh so crucial that any job with refresh is considered mandatory. With all of the new +refresh gear, sanction bonuses, and signet bonuses, this may change, it's too soon to tell I think, but this need refresh mentality may be too far inbred to ever root it out.

Hmm, just thinking aloud here.

Rdm, brd, and cor are all wanted for their refresh.

Rdm is also wanted for haste/healing, and sometimes enfeebling. However with the new kill T-VT mobs as fast as possible most rdm nowadays don't bother enfeebling, this is especially true lvl 60+.

Bards are highly desired for TP burn parties for their various stat boosting songs.

Corsairs I haven't played much with, so I can't really say, I don't know that much about how their rolls work or what they do. I have noticed that Warrior's Role is ungodly powerful, and that in general I think I would much rather have a Corsair than a Bard in my parties any day of the week. Links are few so who really cares if the Corsair may or may not be able to crowd control as well as a bard?

Where am I going with this? I'm not entirely sure, I'm mostly trying to figure out just what abilities people like about them so much, and if it would be possible to get other jobs to do that. I'll have to come back to this after my last final tomorrow.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Links are few so who really cares if the Corsair may or may not be able to crowd control as well as a bard?

"Crowd control" is a overly-generous term for "greed." I've had plenty of high-chain PTs where BRDs never once held more than one mob outside of the current fight. COR and pull and sleep one at a time as good as any BRD could, we just don't have a second tier to fall back on. But that's what Random Deal and Wild Card are there for.

Anyway, people spend so very little time trying to learn what these support classes do outside of refresh, buffing and dispel. A THF is going to shrug off Rouge's Roll as though it were nothing special, but that's not why I roll it, I roll it so everyone can get a bonus to their critical hit rate because the THF was there. I could give a damn if he notices a difference. Anyone who's subbing /THF is going to notice Fighter's Roll allowing them to double attack even if the Warrior doesn't.

I don't think support roles are very complex, just busier than others. If a melee job doesn't have some degree of diverse function, I usually think its a boring job.

[Feba]

Crowd control is usually more "sleep that crab so we don't all die horrible flaming deaths" than "greed".

[Raydeus]

I think the issue with Support jobs (like many other issues) goes beyond SE's reach, simply because it has to do with player mentality/psychology.

There's a reason why not many want to be true support players, and many of those "support" players spend 3/4 of the time bragging about how much they contribute to the party and stuff, in a very "I'm the one making things happen, the rest of the party are just my pawns" kinda way. Or worse, just playing a support job (even though they hate it) just because they are easier to level up and to get the leet gear with it (and I wouldn't be surprised if all the sucky support players thought that way).

We've all been told we are special since we were kinds, we are the heroes in every game we play, and in most stories you'll never see a support character becoming the hero. Support characters are just sidekicks who may or may not play a crucial part in the plot but who will never be the hero either way.

This is specially true in the NA playerbase, and we all know how individualist NAs are. So to expect players to suddenly want to become the support of the team without having a good chance of becoming "the star" is kinda too much to expect, specially with younger players.

So, until we learn to think of the party as a "We" instead of 6 separate "Me" I don't see the job balance changing much at all, and besides...



Does it really matter? This is just a game after all, the story always tells us we are the heroes who saved Vana and stuff (even though it says the same to each and every player <.<).

So what the heck, let's give RDM Refresh II Refreshga and A++ Sword and Dagger rating, also give us all the tier II Enspells Phalanx III and stuff like that. I guarantee if RDM does the big dmg numbers we'll see everyone leveling this awesome job and supporting many many parties!

(We could give COR and BRD similar boosts but that would break the game's balance so better not ;) )


Aaaand I think that's what I think about all this mess called Game Balance™ for tonight. :thumbsup:

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Crowd control is usually more "sleep that crab so we don't all die horrible flaming deaths" than "greed".

In that regard, COR and BRDs are equal then :P But both can count on a melee to play hero and smack it awake again.

There's a reason why not many want to be true support players, and many of those "support" players spend 3/4 of the time bragging about how much they contribute to the party and stuff, in a very "I'm the one making things happen, the rest of the party are just my pawns"

But its true. Those attack buffs didn't come out of nowhere and when the DRK lands that huge 2k weaponskill, he thanks not the BRD, but pats his own back. But when the BRD leaves, Space Ace reverts to Dexter and Kimberly no longer wants him.

Or worse, just playing a support job (even though they hate it) just because they are easier to level up and to get the leet gear with it (and I wouldn't be surprised if all the sucky support players thought that way).

BRD and RDM are easier to level, COR not so much, but it does attracts some with the gil but not the skill. I wouldn't consider a COR a job people levelled purely for merits like people would RDM or BRD.

But I've seen my fair share of "Bards." They're usally defeated THFs, DRGs or DRKs without merit invites. I went to BRD with the interest of filling a missing role in my LS and I repeated that error with RDM later. I'm nice to a fault and, when burned, become cynical and evil. Not fun to level stuff for the benefit of friends only to have then screw you over.

I should have just stuck with DRG. Thankfully, BRD and RDM did prepare me for the one of the jobs I enjoyed more than DRG or BST - Corsair. Gambler outranked those jobs as a series favorite, I had always wondered why it was missing from FFXI. But I do have the BRD to fall back on for merits for those other jobs on my original character.

Not a total loss, but I'm not planning to advertise my BRD to any HNMLS in the future, I'll leave that to the wannaBRDs and career ones. I'm not soaking up gear I don't need.

[Sevv]

The thing is, most people just don't want to play support. They want to be the one pumping out big numbers, or taking punches like a boxer. They want their work to show up on a parser, something concrete, or say 'here look, I own.'
I bet if SE removed Player->Mob damage numbers (or at least, the ones in the text log, keeping the popups MAYBE) DDs would be less popular, simply because of e-peen deflation.

lol im mainly a dd job i dont think i have had my damage on since level 30 drg lmao, every now and then i turn it on to tweak gear sets to max out DoT and ws, but after that filter on again. I leveled drg cuz i loved it and every job since then is what my ls needs at the time.

But mainly feba again is right, hell people sell friends out for digital gear for thier e-peen.

[Aeni]

My take on this ...

You can make the horse to go the stream, but you can't make him drink it.

There are those who like to play support class jobs and there are those who don't. Nothing in the world can change this fact. It's just unfortunate that the number of people that play support jobs are outnumbered by a lot of people who don't and it's because of the stereotypes that is still evident even in an online game such as this...

...comes down to that little thing called gender stereotyping.

[DakAttack]

Support jobs aren't easy to play, they're usually a lot more repetitive than others. Offense just whack away and throw out a WS when it's time. They don't miss a second of Scrubs. Support on the other hand have their hands full before the fight, during the fight, and after the fight.

It's probably an issue of identity as well. Swinging fancy weapons at angry monsters is as cool as awesome. Support jobs don't exactly have an awesome background or look.

It's about time SE made playing offensive as hard as it is playing support.

[Sevv]

necro is not a good thing...

[Raydeus]

Tell that to the deceased Umbrella Corp.

[Icemage]

The problem with support jobs in FFXI is not endemic to the support jobs themselves.

The problem is that the game was designed around a demographic balance that simply does not exist in any MMO playerbase:

1 tank
2 damage dealers
1 healer
1 support
+ 1 optional of any type

The core mechanics in the game revolve heavily around this idea, and they were inherited from the Final Fantasy single player dynamics. The playerbase has adapted and pushed the definition far away from this ideal in many circumstances, particularly closer to level 75, but it still doesn't get away from the core design. The pressure still remains because none of the jobs in the game, aside from Beastmaster, is self-sufficient enough to handle the pressure of prolonged XP grinding without assistance or significant downtime.

We don't really need more support jobs (though I'd welcome more personally as I enjoy playing them).

What we need is better game mechanics that more closely resemble the breakdown of what real players want to do.


Icemage

[IfritnoItazura]

I thought WHM is the most popular job, followed by RDM (and BLM) (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/The_7th_Vana%27diel_Census_%2806/27/2007%29#Jobs)?

Where exactly is the mismatch between the core mechanism and the player base? Lack of tanks?

[Karinya]

Too many DDs. But I disagree with Icemage: we've seen the mostly-DD party (for the last couple of years in fact) and it sucks. It alleviated demographic pressures, but at the cost of ruining gameplay for the parties that *are* there. Teamwork is more fun and more challenging, even though it requires people to play DIFFERENT jobs. (Of course if DD-heavy parties made about the same exp as old-school parties, not 2-3x as much, then both types could coexist. That's probably what SE should be aiming for with job and monster rebalances.)

Unfortunately way too much of the playerbase bears a strong resemblance to 8-Bit Theater's Fighter. They just like to hit things and they're not interested in jobs that don't hit things.

[Murphie]

I thought WHM is the most popular job, followed by RDM (and BLM) (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/The_7th_Vana%27diel_Census_%2806/27/2007%29#Jobs)?

Where exactly is the mismatch between the core mechanism and the player base? Lack of tanks?Didn't someone (I want to say BBQ) point out that WHM is one of the most common subjobs in the game, and likely the reason for that particular statistic? I don't know about you, but I don't honestly see that many WHMs out and about. I'm sure folks have them leveled, but that doesn't translate into the reality of what people are playing right now.

[Mhurron]

Didn't someone (I want to say BBQ) point out that WHM is one of the most common subjobs in the game, and likely the reason for that particular statistic? I don't know about you, but I don't honestly see that many WHMs out and about. I'm sure folks have them leveled, but that doesn't translate into the reality of what people are playing right now.
There is also the fact that leveling WHM, RDM and BLM was one of the fastest ways to get into an end game ls.

Lots of reasons that support jobs are leveled, but never played.

[Ziero]

A party only needs one Whm but can have up to four of a single DD job to be successful. The reason there isn't as many support jobs being played is that there's not enough need for them. Every party needs two different ones and that's it, some can even make due with just one. There's also the fact that there's only four(five if you count Smn) pure support classes while there's at least ten pure DD classes (twelve if you count pimped out DD nin and endgame Smn, thirteen if you include Pup).

The reason we see more DDs then support is because there *is* more DD classes then support. There's also more *need* for DDs then support classes. Go put five Rdms or five Brds together in one pt and see how fast they kill.

[IfritnoItazura]

Didn't someone (I want to say BBQ) point out that WHM is one of the most common subjobs in the game, and likely the reason for that particular statistic? I don't know about you, but I don't honestly see that many WHMs out and about. I'm sure folks have them leveled, but that doesn't translate into the reality of what people are playing right now.

Yes, BBQ was one person. Here are a couple of things to consider on the topic:
1. Likely, S-E counts the highest job a person has as his "main". Don't tell me a person who consider his WAR as main job typically would have WHM as the highest level job.
2. If S-E just took snap shots of which jobs people online were on, it then actually means PEOPLE ARE USING THE WHITE MAGE JOB. (Seems logical to assume people spend more time on their main job than others, no? Takes 143,250 EXP to go from Lv.1 to Lv.37, but 658,100 EXP to get from Lv.37 to Lv.75, after all.)

Either way, I've never seen credible evidence that WHM and RDM are unpopular jobs, just people stating opinions such as "People hate to play healer" and "There are never RDMs around" as facts.

[Jethreal]

Another thing to consider with the X job is never available, is simply that we have a tendancy to remember negative/frustrating circumstances far more than positive ones.

IE I remember not be able to form a pt because there was no tank available, but don't remember that I had a Rdm or Whm in my group of 5 that disbanded. My own job by it's nature determines what I'm looking for, I would not be surprised at all to hear that the Whms think no-one plays tanks and the tanks think there are no healers around.

[Mhurron]

I've never seen credible evidence that WHM and RDM are unpopular jobs, just people stating opinions such as "People hate to play healer" and "There are never RDMs around" as facts.
Really? It's right in front of you.

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/07/03main_job.html

WHM - 16% Rare? Maybe not in the strictest sense, but 84% of the population doesn't play WHM
RDM - 13% Yes, apparently it's going to be harder to find a RDM then a WHM.

Put them together, and throw in SMN for the hell of it as healing classes and you have 31% of people play some sort of healing job, meaning 59% of people do not want to play a healing job. Now assuming you are right, and it's a good assumption, that SE is counting jobs to 75 as main, then a number of those RDM and WHM are the same person. I think its safe to say that the majority of players do not want to play healers.

Lets look at support, BRD (3), RDM (13), COR(1) and you have 83% of players do not want to play support jobs.

Tanks? They make up 13% of players.

DD? Not including BLM - 39% Including BLM - 52%. I think it's safe to say that most people want to hurt things. And again, this is ignoring healers and support players that also have DD jobs leveled because they also like to hit things.

[IfritnoItazura]

Hmm. How about I say that there's a popular notion that "Too few people want to play support and healer", and that notion is wrong?

In a party of six, Icemage stated the core setup needs one tank, one healer, one support.

Well, one divided by six is 16.7%; that means we need roughly 16-17% of the population as tank, and the same for healer, and the same for support role jobs.

Tank (PLD + NIN): ~13%
Support Role (RDM + BRD + COR): ~17%
Healer (WHM): ~16% (~18% if counting SMN)

Mhurron, we can quibble about what is the percentage means a job can be called popular or rare, but I hope you can agree that the numbers seem to show overall, there are enough support role and healer players.

* * *

If I had written "WAR and MNK are popular jobs," I doubt few would have disagreed with me or pick on the statement by stating "Well, there are more people who play WHM or RDM than WAR or MNK."

Why is it so controversial to say WHM and RDM are popular jobs? It just seem to hit a collective nerve...

[Ziero]

Really? It's right in front of you.
http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/07/03main_job.html
WHM - 16% Rare? Maybe not in the strictest sense, but 84% of the population doesn't play WHM
RDM - 13% Yes, apparently it's going to be harder to find a RDM then a WHM.
Put them together, and throw in SMN for the hell of it as healing classes and you have 31% of people play some sort of healing job, meaning 59% of people do not want to play a healing job. Now assuming you are right, and it's a good assumption, that SE is counting jobs to 75 as main, then a number of those RDM and WHM are the same person. I think its safe to say that the majority of players do not want to play healers.
Lets look at support, BRD (3), RDM (13), COR(1) and you have 83% of players do not want to play support jobs.
Tanks? They make up 13% of players.
DD? Not including BLM - 39% Including BLM - 52%. I think it's safe to say that most people want to hurt things. And again, this is ignoring healers and support players that also have DD jobs leveled because they also like to hit things.

I think this is more due to the fact that there are 2 to 3 times more offensive job choices then the actual desire to play the job. But then again any statistical survey of this games current in game job status quo is going to be difficult to obtain with that handy dandy Job Change ability. I mean, if someone lvls both War and Whm to 75, does that make them a healer or a melee?

It's not lack of desire, it's lack of options. We don't need as many support jobs being played because there's no room for those support jobs. Hence why hybrid classes like Cor and Blu seem to be the best way to add new jobs.

[Mhurron]

Mhurron, we can quibble about what is the percentage means a job can be called popular or rare, but I hope you can agree that the numbers seem to show overall, there are enough support role and healer players.
Thats assuming those 16% of players are on, currently WHM, the level you want and want to party. Even with 52% of the population being DD, personally I only ever see at most 20 or so lfg.

There's also the question of how many have WHM or RDM leveled to 75 but pretty much hate the job so much they will never touch it again. Numerous people who have a lvl75 job have retired it, but it will still show up in those statistics.

They seem to be very popular to have leveled, but that is not translating to being very popular to play. WHM, RDM and BLM (especially) were a number of peoples tickets into end game LS's.

[IfritnoItazura]

Hmm. I'll take Occam's Razor, if you don't mind; the simplest and most likely explanation that bunch of people are WHMs and RDMs on S-E's census is that quite a few people play those jobs.

[Celeal]

To be honest, I think we do lack of desire and lack of options... using the ToAU jobs as an example: BLU/WHM as main healer or BLU/WAR as tank, vs DD BLU, the later one is more popular and easiler to achieve. Look at COR/RNG ~ COR/NIN vs COR/WHM ~ COR/BRD, in the game mechanics COR/RNG ~ COR/NIN is "completed" while COR/WHM ~ COR/BRD have "something" missing.

More option will be opened up if S-E do something like make DRG/WHM pet trigger healing breath at 80% hp....better mp ratio on BLU's nuke or debuff... re-work monk's guarding, counterattack, lower the timer of Chakra.... There are things for existing job that can tweak better for non-DD role in party, instead of adding new support jobs.

With the upcoming PUP's healer head, we can wait and see how well it can main/backup heal in party with Mana Tank I+II (3 MP Auto-Refresh per tick with one Dark Maneuver, more MP per tick when more Dark Maneuver is up)

[Murphie]

Hmm. I'll take Occam's Razor, if you don't mind; the simplest and most likely explanation that bunch of people are WHMs and RDMs on S-E's census is that quite a few people played those jobs at some point.With a couple of small adjustments, I'm totally with you.

[IfritnoItazura]

Funny, Murphie. >_>

Well, if you really want to know what's currently available, we can just use /search ...

/sea all 38-72 WHM
/sea all 38-72 RDM
/sea all 38-72

Will give you the non-anon, at least, of percentage of the population as WHM or RDM. Then, we can compare with less controversial jobs known to be popular, like WAR and MNK.

Or, we can all just keep reiterating and spinning each of our favorite theory on why WHMs are not WHMs, and why RDMs are not RDMs. Or, why they were, but not any longer, etc.

[Murphie]

I realize my evidence is anecdotal, but your random /sea isn't much more valid than that. And I wasn't trying to be funny. That's how I honestly feel about the situation.

[IfritnoItazura]

I realize my evidence is anecdotal, but your random /sea isn't much more valid than that.

I've seen that argument before, and dislike it greatly. If a theory is true, there's a good chance a random sampling should not contradict the theory. Though each sample by itself cannot be used to prove or disprove a theory, samplings should meaningfully increase or decrease the confidence level we have in any relevant theory, even if the change in confidence level is small.

Or, put it another way, if I keep seeing a fair number of WHMs and RDMs on /search, I must doubt the idea that not many people play them.

/search gives precise information, across an entire server. It's true that it doesn't prove S-E's data is good by itself, and I readily acknowledge this. However, to say the usual anecdotal evidence is as valid (or more valid, according to some others) is silly. Plus, many people seem to confuse "anecdotal evidence" with "how I feel about a subject," and take most often repeated testimony as strong evidence without a serious thought on why it should be considered strong.

In absence of better evidence, to invent complicated reasoning why the majority of WHMs aren't WHMs at all is an exercise in absurdity.

[Pteryx]

Also consider this: if a RDM, BRD, or COR goes LFG, they tend to be invited very quickly, and then are not available for other parties. Furthermore, they're in such demand that if they aren't LFG, they often have to go /anon to avoid unsolicited invites. Together, these can easily lead to a perception of a lack of support jobs, which is the wrong subtype of unavailability of support jobs to be asserting the existence of if SE's numbers are to be believed. -- Pteryx

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

In absence of better evidence, to invent complicated reasoning why the majority of WHMs aren't WHMs at all is an exercise in absurdity.

Your Occram's Razor theory has a lot of holes in it and I don't know why you insist on hanging on the feeble notion that there are lots of WHMs out there.

If there were lots of WHMs:

Why are they still hotly desired in endgame linkshells?
Why do they have the highest turnover rate in said endgame linkshells?
Why does that WHM job vanish after the WHM gains gear for their other job?
Why are WHMs hard to get for PTs even at pre-burn levels?
Why do people groan when you ask them to come WHM over thier melee job?

Because its either not fun to most people or it gets old to the ones that levelled it. Or they got what they needed out of WHM and quit.

Also, consider this:

Time Zones.

Time Zones can affect how you play. Most EU players complain that since they play much closer to JP peak hours that to get any kind of invite attention you have to play a support class. I know of quite a few EU BSTs and PUPs out there, and a ton of EU WHM, RDM and BRDs.

That's a rather distinct polarization in job choices. BST and PUP don't require invites (though they're welcomed) and BRD and RDM can't not get invites. There are EUs that get melee jobs to 75 but take a wild guess which they have to merit on. I've also noticed EU players have a greater tendancy to cap thier EXP than NAs. Hmmmm, can't imagine why >.>

I can go deeper with that, but I think thats a sufficent example of how some jobs aren't represented truely. Think about it a bit more globally, though, and you'll see why the numbers are fudged.

And I can really attest to what EUs experiences because I've played on EU prime hours. I've levelled BRD, COR and RDM over the last three and a half years, care to guess which one got the lionshare of JP invites?

[Murphie]

/search is going to provide information at that moment, on your server only. It's as anecdotal as the evidence the rest of us are providing, really. Just because it's an actual number doesn't really prove much of anything.

[IfritnoItazura]

Yet more elaborate theories, and on even smaller data sets. Why is "endgame linkshell players" testimonies with WHMs/RDMs so important? Do they represent the majority of people? BBQ, you thought sampling with /search was worthless data--why would sampling experiences in these endgame linkshells, with their highly skewed, self-selected sub-population of the players, be better?

BTW, I've never said majority of people enjoy WHM or RDM; I've merely pointed out evidence that they are a significant portion of the population, and the data indicate they are not rare. As for time zone, what of it? Whatever the motivations to play support role jobs, if people play them, they are available.

Do check out Pteryx's argument on why people may think there are a fewer RDMs than there really are. That's a much saner argument (find theory which fits the data) there.

* * *

If a job is needed, and there lack enough players, that imbalance itself would act a corrective force. It really is much more reasonable to suppose there are roughly enough WHMs and RDMs than the other way around, since the game has been around for such a long time. Doubly more reasonable, when that supposition aligns with data.

* * *
Say, a species of beetles can live in both grassy and light forest area within a climate zone. Furthermore, they carry genes for both greenish coloration (good for hiding in grass), and brownish coloration (good for hiding on forest floor).

Also, 30% of the climate zone is forested, and 70% is grassy.

In absent of other selection factor differentials (e.g. They don't eat better or worse in grass or forest), what percentage of the beetles would you expect to be green? What percentage be brown?

Would it matter if the beetles were originally mostly green or brown?

The answer is obvious; over time, the population will evolve to close to optimal fit--squeeze as many beetle into both forest and grass as they can support. And, if both environment support equal density, then the total population should be roughly 30% brown and 70% brown.

* * *

The lesson to take away? If more WHMs are needed, more players will play WHMs. Same goes for any job.

Of course, BRD being an extra job, has more barrier to entry, so it's no surprise RDMs are far more popular, as they are seen to fill approximately the same role for most levels. At least, historically that has been so.

In any case, it's unreasonable to assume very needed jobs would be very rare and stay that way over time, since the environment favor their selection (i.e. easier to level).

[Saren]

Slight derail back to the original topic.


What SE could do to help though credit to them, the new updates certainly look like they are trying:

Cor :The update to cor is really nice. Cor hasn’t been pushed into support healing really so it has more appeal for DD players and if the update makes it more popular then great.


Pup: the update to pup is another step in the right direction. It looks like they are trying to make it so that the puppet can be pushed further into one of the defined party roles so that pup fits into parties a little better.


Time mage: may help a lot depending on how it’s done. It looks like it will be a dedicated support role job and so should fit fairly easily into how players put parties together which is a good thing and there is the chance it could be a good sub.


Smn: Soup up the buffing side of smn to make it a viable and balanced buffer/dd especially with regards to melee buffs, the durations of most of them are just way too short. Attack +15% for 30 seconds with each skill level over cap (only obtainable through gear) gets you an extra second....is pathetic especially for 80mp. Ecliptic Howl is nice but only in the right moon phase. Bard should not be the only job with effective and consistent accuracy and attack buffs because those buffs are just in too much demand.


Adjust bard: Every job has a limitation, bards main one is the casting time of it’s songs. At the moment it’s the only job that is tailored to buffing melees the long casting times are way more than offset by that and by the fact that it doesn’t use mp so it doesn’t have to worry about endurance like most other back line jobs have to. Omgwtfbbqkitten is right, making the gear more relevant to the strength of the buffs with noticeable penalties as well as bonuses would be more fair, won’t hurt the bards that care about their job and got the relevant gear but will make it so that a gimped bard isn’t a powerful player anymore. No job should be an automatic party slot.


Give /whm some competition: Cor doesn’t really have a problem because it usually done with a melee sub and melee subs generally give a lot more added utility to the main job than any mage sub does but whm.

If we are talking useful things from subjobs for exp parties: /blm gives you elemental seal + sleep for emergencies and MABII for rdm main, /smn gives you auto refresh, /rdm gives you bupkiss really, /brd gives a self refresh buff but no mp , /cor gives you a hmp+ buff but no mp, /blu gives you a weaker whm variation with the right spells equipped but with less mp.

/whm on the other hand, gives you every status cure but stona, protectra II, Shellra II and up to cure 3 which will be at least capped and is still a useful cure spell at level 75.

If you are a back line mage then /whm is such a massive step up on any other subjob it’s ridiculous. Status cures and protect/shell give an effect independent of any skill or stat and because of how healing skill works the amount you can get with a /whm is enough for you to cap out on a cure 3.

If other mage jobs were tweaked to make them more attractive as subs I think it might help a lot. More people might play support roles if they could play a buff/dd role (like cor or how smn was supposed to be) or debuff/dd role wilthint being forced into /whm and support healing.




SE have to work around player prejudices and the fact that it takes a while for new things to filter down to common knowledge. You aren’t going to stop people having their playing preferences or finding the easiest way to do something and then repeating it into the ground or from pigeon holing jobs but I think the above would help, particularly the last one.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

The chart doesn't even account for who's taken WHM (or any job) all the way, just what level everyone's highest job is versus thier other jobs and how many have levelled similar jobs to a comprable level. So 16% (or whatever) have probably taken WHM to at least 37. That would mean most people who level jobs that can make use of WHM do so.

That's all it means.

And that's why the headcount is superficial. Actual availability, player trends, time zones, job popularity and such are all factors afterward that influence player perception. To those building PTs or seeking PT or even those who plan endgame events availability is reality.

[Lmnop]

I feel compelled to mention that in Icemage's post, he pointed at how we still try to adhere to "the formula" even in merit parties, but the line is blurred. The big change is that our Tank is also a DD slot and our Support is also a healer. So yeah, we still haven't changed all that much.

Itazura, I see what you've been trying to say. But I think you and everyone arguing against your point need to change your focus a bit.

Sure, WHM is 16% of players. Maybe it's just that easy. But the fact is, barely anyone enjoys taking their rdms to merit parties. Not many seem to enjoy spending time on their WHM. Especially once they get rdm or brd to 75 as well.

The point of this thread is just that: no one wants to stare at life bars for 4 hours, thinking of nothing but where they are in the haste/regen cycle and making sure those life bars stay white.

Corsair is very interesting in that they perform best with melee subs. I really like that S-E did this and I hope they never do anything that makes cor/whm or *gasp* cor/brd the ultimate combo. Really, I'm not sure why COR's not more popular. 'kitten will say cost, but I don't think that could be the only reason. I think the ranged attack positioning thing is just too much of a hassle for most people, as we tend to take the path of least resistance (and if you're going for a buffing class, that means BRD).

I think I'm glad Aeni breathed life back into this thread because it's obvious people had a lot to say (2 pages in a day?). That said, I don't really agree with her reasoning. The reason we don't play Support jobs really is because it's not very fun for most of us to have to work the hardest and get praised the least. Honestly, playing melee jobs isn't that fun either, but at least you look cool and it's easy.

[Mhurron]

Say, a species of beetles can live in both grassy and light forest area within a climate zone. Furthermore, they carry genes for both greenish coloration (good for hiding in grass), and brownish coloration (good for hiding on forest floor).
Also, 30% of the climate zone is forested, and 70% is grassy.
In absent of other selection factor differentials (e.g. They don't eat better or worse in grass or forest), what percentage of the beetles would you expect to be green? What percentage be brown?
Would it matter if the beetles were originally mostly green or brown?
The answer is obvious; over time, the population will evolve to close to optimal fit--squeeze as many beetle into both forest and grass as they can support. And, if both environment support equal density, then the total population should be roughly 30% brown and 70% brown.
* * *
The lesson to take away? If more WHMs are needed, more players will play WHMs. Same goes for any job.
Of course, BRD being an extra job, has more barrier to entry, so it's no surprise RDMs are far more popular, as they are seen to fill approximately the same role for most levels. At least, historically that has been so.
In any case, it's unreasonable to assume very needed jobs would be very rare and stay that way over time, since the environment favor their selection (i.e. easier to level). Wrong. Evolutionary theory is not applicable here since players are not completely mindless. This is a game that people do for enjoyment, they are only going to play what they want to play, not what others need.

16% of anything is not a significant portion of anything.

[IfritnoItazura]

16% of anything is not a significant portion of anything.

Then, at 9% (WAR) and 3% (BRD), those WARs and BRDs must mean nothing. :wtf:

What constitute "significant portion" changes with context, and the current context is that S-E's numbers say largest slice of the pie is 16%...

* * *

Giving up for now; I seem to be unable to get my ideas across to most posters. While I still maintain there's no real shortage of healer and support role players (at least no evidence of that), Lmnop is right in that there wouldn't necessarily be harm done if they are made more enjoyable for larger portion of the player population.

I just don't want huge buffs to those jobs; every job buff is potentially a nerf to the game, and possibly breaking the balance a little (more).

[Yellow Mage]

I personally think that the problem is that the -only- dedicated Healer job is White Mage, with only Red Mage and Paladin as the only other jobs with native curative magics. Compare it to your obscenely wide array of Damage Dealers: -any- Job could be a DD, technically. Even the White Mage job itself has a small share of front-liners (hello, Hexa Strike).

Note, when I say WHM is the only dedicated Healer class, that also includes jobs who can only get in as /WHM, because they are nothing more than a WHM at half-leveled White Mage in a party, without the EXP problems. Summoner comes to mind when saying this, because, when somebody says "Summoner Main Healer," I don't think whoever's saying it has "Healing Breeze" and "Spring Water" in thier mind. Might as well call Onion Knight a Healer, too, because, if such a job existed, the only way they're getting in a party at mid-levels is by subbing White Mage, or maybe Red Mage, if they want to go against the grain. This also has links to the whole "lack of variety in Healing jobs" thing.

But, if you wanted to be a typical melee DD, you have far more options! Warrior, Dark Knight, Ranger, Dragoon, Monk, Thief, Blue Mage, Samurai, and you can even make cases for Beastmaster, Corsair, Puppetmaster, Ninja, and even White Mage itself! Even if you wanted a refresher/support, you -still- have more choices, with Red Mage, Bard, and Corsair. Healing, you're with either a White Mage, a /WHM, or, in some cases, a Red Mage or /RDM.

So, while lack of motivation to be stuck as a healer may be a factor, a lack of variety in actual healing jobs just can't be ignored. Why else is White Mage so demanded a job? I doubt it's for the Hexa-Strikers.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

'kitten will say cost, but I don't think that could be the only reason. I think the ranged attack positioning thing is just too much of a hassle for most people, as we tend to take the path of least resistance (and if you're going for a buffing class, that means BRD).

BRD is every bit about positioning as COR is. Hell, even moreso because they don't have the buff cycle restrictions COR does. If a COR rolls one buff, its locked for a full two minutes and the third buff has to be a new buff or it won't overwrite at all.

As such, BRDs can spam their songs and if they know thier buff radius well, they can hit almost anyone with a unique buff. The third song will overwrite the first song on a BRD no matter what that song is.

And positioning for ranged attacks is much ado about nothing. Gun range is by far the most forgiving of all ranged weapons, you stand just a bit outside of melee ranged to get your best damage and if you're high on attack/STR gear with a fair Ranged Accuracy build, that's not even neccessary. Positioning for ranged is much more in the forefront of RNG's mind than it is COR's

The issue for most is cost.

Why?

Because each time I hear "I would level COR, but..." it always ends with "its too expensive."

Just how many posts have there been with people trying to nickel and dime thier way through the job? How many have said they wish to avoid levelling RNG or NIN subs to avoid further cost?

Almost so many I want to throw up. They may as well just say "I'm levelling this because I saw Pirates of the Carribean and want to collect the AF."

You know what I tell them about the AF?

"You'll have to pay for that, too." :evil:

[Shota]

Squeenix should just add another dedicated, main healer class! Nothing that would rival the WHM, but just as good and a little more fun than than just standing there clicking heal!

Maybe a more melee style and the more dmg ur doing adds to how much more healing you can do per spell! [just an idea]

[Raydeus]

The problem with support jobs in FFXI is not endemic to the support jobs themselves.

The problem is that the game was designed around a demographic balance that simply does not exist in any MMO playerbase

I quote this because that's pretty much what this is all about.

Pair that with the individualist attitude of players (specially within the NA community) and you'll see why there's such an imbalance in job choices.

In the end the amount of (active) support/healer players is minimal compared to that of DD players out there, so the burn style of playing (be it mana or tp) seems much more apropiate for the reality of the community. I wouldn't be surprised if one day we would see a 5DD + 1 healer/support becoming the standard manaburn-like.

After all, looking at the jobs available you'll find (only considering party value):

Starting jobs:
4 DD (WAR, MNK, BLM, THF)
2 H/S (WHM, RDM)

Advanced jobs:
2 S (BRD, COR)
2 T/DD (PLD, NIN)
1 Unknown, maybe DD/S (SMN)
7 DD (BST, BLU, DRK, DRG, PUP, RNG, SAM)

That means the party setup considering an equal distribution ratio among players/jobs available would have to be with 4-5 out of 6 spots filled by DD, which could or could not include a tank, and only 1 or 2 spots filled by a support and/or healer job.

Not counting BST and maybe PUP and considering the lack of popularity of support/healer jobs you'll fall under the 5-1 formation, so just going by the numbers alone the game seems like it was designed for a burn setup.

I wonder if WotG will change that. :huh:

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Let's say they make another healing class, and techincally they did with BLU, what happens to another class that's a dedicated healer?

The same people don't play it that didn't play WHM. Unless said job brings a totally different dynamic to the table - as Chemist possibly could - nothing is going to change. Chemist would be a temp-item/tool based healer, totally unhindered by MP, which changes things a little in terms of endurace. But if you do that, cost could be come a factor for the job and make it unattractive to other players.

We can have people pick up a new healer or tank class, but ultimately, more people will still play DD classes and the problem persists.

You'd think DD + Buffs would make COR attractive and it does for those dedicated to the job, but its cost and the responsibility COR has to a PT that makes it less attractive. Support classes take on an added dose of responsibility with PTs that melees don't have to deal with. Buffing, pulling, possibly backup curing all take a degree of priority depending on your sub. COR, RDM and BRD are easy to play and invite, but they are not autoattack-and-go-AFK jobs. They're constantly moving

Seriously, I'm so wired on how busy RDM, BRD, COR, RNG and BLU are that I can't stand levelling many other jobs because they feel so slow. I don't know how SAMs and WARs stay awake. BST is the exception because BST has to watch every little thing they do or they'll end up dead with no one to raise them. BST gets the added effect of "paranoia."

It makes me sit back and laugh at all the melees kicking around fTP and DPS equations as if auto attacking and a WS macro is rocket science.

[Armando]

It makes me sit back and laugh at all the melees kicking around fTP and DPS equations as if auto attacking and a WS macro is rocket science.In all fairness, those melees doing research are the ones that actually give a fuck about what they're doing in a party and are also the ones that don't suck so hard they make you want to rant about how stupid they are in the Pet Peeves thread.

Sorry, but I found that comment a bit out of place considering the main complaint about anything in this game boils down to "people are stupid." Don't be a player hater bbq, a good player is still a good player regardless of how stupidly simple his favorite job is ;o

[Malacite]

Squeenix should just add another dedicated, main healer class! Nothing that would rival the WHM, but just as good and a little more fun than than just standing there clicking heal!

Maybe a more melee style and the more dmg ur doing adds to how much more healing you can do per spell! [just an idea]


So basically RDM >_ >

[Icemage]

To counter the idea that support jobs are rare, go talk to ANY HNMLS member, and ask them how many people in their LS have a support job levelled to 75. Then ask them how often those support jobs actually appear when people gather for an event.

The answer will typically be: Majority of HNMLS members will have a support job levelled. Only a small minority will actually bring those jobs to an event if given the choice.

Most players consider playing support a chore. Even the Bards and Red Mages that I generally run into are doing it because it's easier to get merits or XP on those jobs as opposed to a damage or tank job.

If DD and tank jobs were more self-sufficient, you'd see almost no one playing RDM, BRD, or WHM. It is only because demand is so high that any number of people have these jobs levelled.


Icemage

[Shota]

So basically RDM >_ >

No not even close to what I'm thinking!

[Raydeus]

No not even close to what I'm thinking!

But it is, just change RDM's sword/dagger rating to A-, enhance Enspell dmg and/or add tier II Enspells (bye bye MTK :P ) and that's what you get.

[Yellow Mage]

I think one important part you're missing is the whole "the more damage you deal, the more damage you heal" concept, which could work out to be an interesting healer class, if all the details are handled well.

But, everything else, Red Mage.

[Silent Howler]

For me, Rdm isn't what comes to mind, but rather Pld with Spirit Taker.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Sorry, but I found that comment a bit out of place considering the main complaint about anything in this game boils down to "people are stupid." Don't be a player hater bbq, a good player is still a good player regardless of how stupidly simple his favorite job is ;o

Well, I didn't mean you per se. You and VZX will take those numbers and break them down in a way all can understand. I should have made the distinction that there are those that take those numbers seriously and make them useful and then there's those that talk loudly with numbers and don't cover all the angles.

I saw a rather amusing thread today on KI talking about DPS with Joyeuse, Jambiya, Suppa, Brutal while using /NIN in meripo. The OP was going on and on about how it was a great option then Darus (probably the first NA COR to 75, if not the very first) came in to back the data.

I think at some point the assertion was even made that with Haste this was all better than using a gun. Um, sure, if you don't have /RNG and a Joyeuse.

But the data wasn't even weighed against /RNG, the DPS didn't even consider the delays Phantom Roll and Double Up would create. Oh and Darus doesn't have a Joyeuse. So basically all this data boiled down to was the justification to sub /NIN in merit for no useful reason as opposed to pulling. Unless we want to consider COR not getting hit useful.

Anyway, I took my original point too far, I apologize.

To counter the idea that support jobs are rare, go talk to ANY HNMLS member, and ask them how many people in their LS have a support job levelled to 75. Then ask them how often those support jobs actually appear when people gather for an event.

The answer will typically be: Majority of HNMLS members will have a support job levelled. Only a small minority will actually bring those jobs to an event if given the choice.

Most players consider playing support a chore. Even the Bards and Red Mages that I generally run into are doing it because it's easier to get merits or XP on those jobs as opposed to a damage or tank job

EXACTLY.

To put it another way, let me tell you just about everyone of my Limbus runs so far. To sum them all up, since I play COR and enjoy it, I have no problem coming as COR. But there are 3 of 4 people at these events I know have a 75 BRD, they see my COR and they go gear thier MNK or BLU. Meanwhile there's a whole PT full of melees that could use a March or Minuet song during Limbus and there's a WHM who we couldn't fit into my mage PT.

But they come as thier melee job anyway. So SMNs and WHMs are having to rest and I'm now having to be passed around the alliance. Its bloody annoying because its easy to trot off to to MH in Port Jeuno and fix that.

Meanwhile, I can honestly see the annoyance of coming all the way out to somewhere like, say, Dragon's Aery as you WAR and being told to come back WHM. Deep down, most people don't want to camp this shit to start with, much less trot accross all the zones required as a job they dislike playing.

I'm pondering a server tranfer and considering not ever bring up my BRD in a conversation ever again because I know the moment someone knows Foobar is a BRD that his BST would never see endgame activity. Its not that I dislike BRD itself, it was as fun as COR from 1-75, its more to the end that as loved as the job is, some people can't see it as more than a manabucket at endgame. If all the job is going to be is a merit monkey and manabucket, its not fun.

BRD got to tank for a little while, but now its back to where it was at endgame. And with CORs not exactly infiltrating endgame, BRD is still the BLM or SMN's manabitch. Oh look, there's RDM kiting, enfeebling, Curing and CS/Stunning. I think I'll play ballad again and hope elegy sticks this time.

Is it any wonder I prefer COR? I get to buff, shoot stuff, enhance enfeebles and help sleep stuff. COR doesn't lose versatility at endgame, it gains it. I get to put all those mage subs to work and /RNG is still useful.

For BRD and WHM particulary, there's no growth. BRD only loses versatility, WHM never really changes. BRD/NIN was great for a while outside of merits, BRD could tank endgame mobs. Of course, people MPKed with it and that's why it stopped.

I think BRD and WHM, in particular, just need a little something to break the monotony and make thier roles interesting at endgame. Maybe the answer lies in the forthcoming expansion jobs, that's always possible, but we only really got a good sub with BLU in ToA.

[IfritnoItazura]

... the lack of BRD, RDM and COR. ... something needs to be done to get more out there, in addtion to more WHM.
To counter the idea that support jobs are rare, go talk to ANY HNMLS member, ...

The answer will typically be: Majority of HNMLS members will have a support job levelled. Only a small minority will actually bring those jobs to an event if given the choice.

Most players consider playing support a chore.

If I may, then, the problem is not really that there are insufficient number of "BRD, RDM and COR" and WHM, but actually:
1. Lack of LS coordination on who is suppose to be on support role jobs.
2. Support role jobs are draining to play, so people often avoid it.
3. Many people do not want to be locked into support role only (since it's tiring), so try to take opportunity to use other jobs.
4. Players like to do damage above all. (Not from Icemage's posting, but from what others have said.)

#1 is to up Linkshells to fix. Just because your LS can't coordinate well enough to ensure the right number of right jobs are available when the LS has many people with multiple Lv.75 jobs, it does not make it S-E's fault.

#2 may not be fixable; support role jobs are busy (when played right) because they can do a lot of useful things for the party/alliance. Is anyone serious suggesting we take their usefulness away to make them less busy? I think not. And, if as Icemage suggests, S-E make DD's and tanks more self-sufficent, then what would be the point of having support role jobs at all?

Making an assumption here, but I doubt BBQ (the OP) would want S-E to make support role jobs obsolete.

#3 still looks like it's up to LS to fix; rotate the support players, so no one gets burned out too fast.

#4 is likely the symptom of a problem, not the problem itself. People want to be heros--to be the someone who receive praises and accolades.

A good RDM in party is nearly invisible--things magically turn out OK, be it your PLD's and WHM's MP pools, the link/pop/add sleeping soundly, that Haste icon that's on screen 98% of the time, or an IT- monster so enfeebled that it feels like a T+ to the tank.

Compared that to brash three-some who just pulled off a huge SC+MB which took 80% of the monster's HP and lit the entire screen with pretty special effects. That's easy to notice, and easy to praise.

And, the RDM who hasted the melee's and refreshed the BLM? He only gets to be yelled at, when haste or refresh dropped for more than 5 seconds.

DD has a chance to be hero every WS, every big nuke. Support... Well, you'd have to go pretty extreme, like single-handily sleep multiple monsters for 15 minutes while others in party recover from KO and weakness--if they don't blame you for the party wipe to begin with.

* * *

I remember an LS THF player (rather newbie at the time), suffered the typical "No one wants to set up SATA for me. /cry" during Promyvion and Minotaur runs. He felt useless. Ended up leveling his WAR for quite a bit, and loved the damage he could do on WAR.

Well, CoP 3.5 came around for him, and I made him go as THF/NIN to kite two Mammets at once. He never kited before that night, but did an awesome job for us. EVERYONE noticed.

He stop neglecting his THF, and leveled it to 61--his highest level job to date. Not only that, he volunteered his THF to kite just about every Mammet fight since. I'd say all the praises and cheers for him helped with that decision to keep leveling THF, and well as provide us with an able and willing Mammet kiter for all times. ^_-

* * *

You want more people to show up as BRDs, RDMs, and WHMs? Praise them. Flatter them. Lick their boots. (Well, OK, not that last one.)

If you are determined, though, to keep them invisible, don't be surprised when your BRD showed up as WAR/NIN and protests "But, you didn't make it absolutely clear I cannot bring WAR instead!"

Of course, we can just all learn to appreciate everyone and give praise generously... Oh, what am I saying?! Slap me, Mhurron! :P

[Yellow Mage]

Stuff about respect.

The world needs more people like Ita. Seriously. <3

[Icemage]

If I may, then, the problem is not really that there are insufficient number of "BRD, RDM and COR" and WHM, but actually:
1. Lack of LS coordination on who is suppose to be on support role jobs.
No. This has nothing to do with coordination.

This is about what people want to bring - not what they are willing to bring. Good linkshells will bring whatever is necessary. Most of the members of my HNMLS have at least 3 jobs at level 75, and will generally switch to any job needed to reach the configuration necessary to execute our strategy. We configure our job mix to match an activity; only in cases where we have more people than we we need do we generally shrug and let some people bring favored jobs, and we try to mix it up to let people flex their skills from time to time.

2. Support role jobs are draining to play, so people often avoid it.
Is that a fault of the support jobs, though, or is it because the DD jobs are so mind-numbingly simple that the support jobs look complex by comparison?

3. Many people do not want to be locked into support role only (since it's tiring), so try to take opportunity to use other jobs.
It's not tiring to play WHM or BRD at endgame, yet hardly anyone one wants to bring those jobs even when they have them levelled. The only jobs I consider to be tiring at endgame are Red Mage, Ninja, Paladin and Corsair.

4. Players like to do damage above all. (Not from Icemage's posting, but from what others have said.)
True. Not everyone's into big numbers, but a lot of people are. :)

You want more people to show up as BRDs, RDMs, and WHMs? Praise them. Flatter them. Lick their boots. (Well, OK, not that last one.)

If you are determined, though, to keep them invisible, don't be surprised when your BRD showed up as WAR/NIN and protests "But, you didn't make it absolutely clear I cannot bring WAR instead!"

Of course, we can just all learn to appreciate everyone and give praise generously... Oh, what am I saying?! Slap me, Mhurron! :P
This advice falls on deaf ears. I rarely get commentary about my performance on WHM, RDM, or BRD, but I do hear a lot of "Wow that was a great party/fight" afterwards, which is good enough for me. I can understand why it's not sufficient to feed the ego of most players though. :)

EDIT: Something else occurs to me. If you go watch any major public battle (any Wyrm fight, anything in sea or sky, etc.), look at the balance of power of jobs present. If more than 4 out of an 18 alliance is non-BLM DDs, it would be shocking.


Icemage

[Akashimo]

Honestly, I don't even remember the last time i merrited on whm, rdm or thf >_>; Yet its a wonder I can still keep my exp close to cap on thf considering all the sac pulls i do in dynamis.

Merit parties here, its just tiring. Honestly, its either wait for a phailed invite on thf(e.g. get an invite to mire) or get a damn ddx4 + brd invite on rdm, or just a sucky n00b merit party on whm. On smn, its just soloing goblins for me when my zone of choice is empty(40-46 woot!). Monk and paladin, I just stop cause when ever I feel in a major need to level either, 3-5 others are lfp too --; .

Nothing seems worth the effort in trying anymore these days to me. Just so easy to get overshadowed by the war/nin or sam/thf craze its, brain killing meh. Just once when lfp as rdm/war or whm/nin I get to have some fun being a support/dd at the same time in a classic 3/3 setup. v.v ugh, one can dream.