Why do you want to see what i do on my home computer?

[Malevolent]

So i logged in to POL to start downloading the update lastnite to only have my process guard and virus scanner pop up telling me a unidentified scanner was trying to scan my computer. After a lil digging i found out it was POL Trafic Data.

Now according to User Agreements and Policies section 3 part 2: Collection of Traffic Data

SEI may also collect certian anonymous usuage data, such as pages visited and services used WITHIN PLAYONLINE (collectively, "Traffic Data"). This information is not Personal Informationand generally is not aggregated with Personal Information. We generally use Traffic Data to improve our services to youand to custimize and enhance you Playonline experience.


ok so why are you scanning my computer...i see POL was trying to get my ffxionline username and password and also my totalffxi.net UN and PW. To me this is personal becasue in these forums I express my opinions and thoughts. Thats personal to me. Plus why were you scanning my internet history? Do you wanna know what porn sites i go to or what i like to watch?? These sites are in no way shape or form POL services. I will continue to pay my monthly fee and enjoy the game but you will not scan my computer for unrelated info to FFXI or POL. I will have my Process Guard report you my local authorities if you continue to scan my computer for unrelated information.

[hongman]

Suddenly Personal COmputers dont seem so "Personal"

[Murphie]

I don't really care. I suppose I should, but I don't.

[Hantz]

I'm on PS2. What are they going to do to me? Find my "I <3 Katamari" high scores? Maybe this is the one area where FFXI is better on PS2....

[Murphie]

My high score in "I <3 Katamari" could be higher.

I'm just saying.

[Hantz]

My high score in "I <3 Katamari" could be higher.

I'm just saying.

Not to derail or anything, but: In the level where you get to roll for 17 minutes or so, I damn near got big enough to roll up the King of the Cosmos. He got pissed and started puffing a rainbow scoop out of his mouth, bumping me around. So I'm sure my high scores could be higher as well, but not by much. ;)

[Malevolent]

lol i like how it got on to the subject of Katamari high scores ^^

[Hantz]

Yeah, sorry to derail. I can see how you might be alarmed about the OT. As long as it isn't an endless chain of prawn pop-up adverts, I wouldn't give a hoot.

[IfritnoItazura]

To OP:

Not sure what you mean; your wording is a bit vague. However, this may be related: A report of where pol.exe (PlayOnline) is trying to read memory allocated to launcher.exe (FFXI Windower) (http://www.windower.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9195&start=34).

[Malevolent]

Yeah thats what its looking for but didn't find it. Like it says in the forums its reading everything from winamp-firefox-IE not just FFXI related stuff. i don't think SE should be doing this.

[Liquidedust]

Yeah thats what its looking for but didn't find it. Like it says in the forums its reading everything from winamp-firefox-IE not just FFXI related stuff. i don't think SE should be doing this.

No you're correct, you need a disclosure agreement (which SEI has none except for actions performed within POL and FFXI itself e.g. their own service) to even initiate a scan on your computer.

And here is the thing that makes it even more fun, you have to agree to such disclosure agreement before the scan starts.

POL/SEI does neither take it as you wish, but we're a lot of people that are to say quite upset about this issue since you guessed it, it is illegal in US, Canada and EU.

(before anyone says something, it is the scan that is illegal doesn't matter what you do with the data you cannot even initiate the scan without breaking law unless you have a disclosure agreement)

[Telera]

Glad I'm on PS2 then.

That's seriously fucked up. No other term for it. They have no business trying to scan your browsers to snatch up codes. What in the hell could they possibly want with it? Meh... I think I've decided *not* to upgrade to PC version afterall.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Are you really sure this isn't just a trojan looking like its from POL? What would SE want with your FFXIOnline, Killing Ifrit or Allakazham information?

If it is from POL, it probably looking for third party tools and no matter how much of an invasion you think that is, FFXI is their property, POL is their property and they reserve the right to look for violators of EULA by any means. And before you argue that particular point, MS does that all the time on Xbox Live to lock out third-party mod users. Its their network and their right to do so.

If this is from POL, I think they're looking for windower.
If its not POL, you have something malicious and need to run some scans.

In any event you should be looking for the true source of this program before pointing fingers, it might not be FFXI. Spyware off other FFXI sites is not unheard of.

[Raydeus]

This is the first time I hear about such thing, is this happening to other players as well?

My security programs don't say anything about that, so if it's indeed happening then I think I'll have to switch to another provider that catches that sort of thing.

Also it would be really dumb from SE's part to start with such practices without the proper paperwork, so there's something fishy about all this.

[IfritnoItazura]

Are you really sure this isn't just a trojan looking like its from POL? What would SE want with your FFXIOnline, Killing Ifrit or Allakazham information?

Well, if what OP saw was the same as the link I pointed to, then it's an attempt to read memory of launcher.exe. In the screenshot I saw, at least, the pol.exe is from the location where it's usually installed.

At a different site (Blue Gartr), people reported that pol.exe attempted to access memory of other running processes as well. One person claimed pol.exe is taking a hash of program entry point of every process, though he gave no info on how he managed to figure that out.

There's no evidence this "scanning" is actually about figuring out what you see in your web browser. In fact, there's little evidence of what it's actually doing beside attempting to read memory not belonging to itself, at least from what I've read so far.

The question to S-E really should re-phrase as something like: "Why is pol.exe trying to access other running processes' memory, and what information does it send back to S-E from this scan?" A follow question should be "If security software intercepts pol.exe's process examination, would it cause any problem with using POL and playing FFXI?"

I see no cause for panic... Still, it's stupidity on S-E's part not to announce this change before giving us the update. No programmer would have thought this kind of behavior change would go unnoticed or arouse no suspicion.

[Liquidedust]

Are you really sure this isn't just a trojan looking like its from POL? What would SE want with your FFXIOnline, Killing Ifrit or Allakazham information?

If it is from POL, it probably looking for third party tools and no matter how much of an invasion you think that is, FFXI is their property, POL is their property and they reserve the right to look for violators of EULA by any means. And before you argue that particular point, MS does that all the time on Xbox Live to lock out third-party mod users. Its their network and their right to do so.

If this is from POL, I think they're looking for windower.
If its not POL, you have something malicious and need to run some scans.

In any event you should be looking for the true source of this program before pointing fingers, it might not be FFXI. Spyware off other FFXI sites is not unheard of.

No it is POL that does it since the last POL update. And well guess what I have no real issues with the scan itself OMG if it weren't for the fact they are not legally allowed to do so at all witout a ToS, User Agreement change.

Their EULA and ToS as of now has NO disclosure agreement about other proceses then POL itself and their ToS and User Agreement has no clause about scanning running processes at all. They have every legal right to scan their own system, but the moment they scan my running processes (no matter what is done with the data from the scan itself) they do violate invade my privacy by NOT disclosing this scan in advance in any shape or form and also break privacy and integrety laws by doing so.

If you still don't believe me, just install Process Guard (or a similar application) and run POL, it scans the memory of every singler unning application and process on your computer the moment you start POL. And it is this action that is illegal since there is not a single clause about it in the ToS or User Agreement.

And yes SEI has to the rights to scan my computer IF DISCLOSED and with an option of OPTING OUT, if neither of this is available the scan itself is against the law in US. EU and Canada alike (don't know about countries outside these regions though but doesn't matter in this case).

Since POL neither has a clause about this in the ToS or User Agreement, nor give me an option to agree to the scan itself they have no legal rights whatsoever to even initiate the scan .(not starting an application is not enough in this case, there are precedents for this).

WoW in this case does it the legal way, their EULA does state that they will scan your running processes and applicationand in addition you have to agree to the scan every time before the scan is initiatied (the legal way of handling this matter).

And no they have not every right possible to look for any violations to their EULA, since they cannot break law to do so. And in addition their ToS or User Agreement doesn't even state that they are performing this scan at all.

Before you quote the POL User Agreement and says I am wrong, currently the User Agreement only handles actions within the service itself. In lawspeak this means everything within POL and actions initiated within POL/the game itself. They have nothing in their User Agreement about external systems which the end-users computer is clasisfied as.

Hope this clear up the topic for you OMG

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Their EULA and ToS as of now has NO disclosure agreement about other proceses then POL itself and their ToS and User Agreement has no clause about scanning running processes at all. They have every legal right to scan their own system, but the moment they scan my running processes (no matter what is done with the data from the scan itself) they do violate invade my privacy by NOT disclosing this scan in advance in any shape or form and also break privacy and integrety laws by doing so.

DNAS scans your system each and every time you log in, looking for data it is told to look for and ingoring data that isn't. Any consent to DNAS in the EULA would be an consent to this as well.

SE has every right to know if you run something like windower or hacks for the game. They have every right to block it. 360 and PS2 users do not pose a threat to the network and game balance like PC users can.

So far, most of what the program does seems to be targeting windower, which is a violation of your POL user agreement. Do you use windower? Would you argue that, since SE is clearly against the use of windower at this time, SE has no right to dismantle windower? I think they do have that right.

I find it interesting you make no mention of windower, but other people complaining on other sites have mentioned it and focus on that part of what the program does. I've heard nothing of it doing other things until I saw your post.

[Akashimo]

*Foresees massive 500k account bannings in the possible future for use of windowers, then week later FFXI with windower support*

[Theyaden]

I have not tested any of this personally so I cannot state if SE is scanning peoples information. My statements below are regarding any company doing such a search.

Additionally if the company in question finds something of interest on the computer or not doesn't factor into the issue of is it right to scan without notice outside their own software so I will cut to the issue directly.

If a company seeks information on my system I must agree that notifying me before scanning is not only a legal requirement (The quoted legal info was listing California rather than Sweden), but a moral obligation it does not require that much effort to add a notice I must be scanned for... if I wish to use the service.

If a company wishes to see how much porn/exc is in the average users history or whatever else their looking for siimply add a notice to the opening I accept and those that are unwilling to be scanned can hit I decline and not access the service. It is not a hard issue.

Wow reportedly made the same mistake listed, appologized for not notifying people in advance and added the disclaimer so people would be aware they were being scanned if SE is also doing this they can add the same disclaimer and that should end the problem.

Sidenote http://www.peacefire.org/ probably has some of the more interesting stories regarding privacy rights, but mostly focuses on filter software though.

[Neomage]

Hmmm... well this wouldn't be THAT disturbing to me if I hadn't already been suspended for a folow-up test to Feba's experiment... and if SE IS going to start suspending/banning for windower, I fear I will be one of the next ones to be perma-banned. Well, I just installed the free version of Process Guard, and I let Launcher.exe Read, Modify, and Terminate applications as well as being protected from Reading, Modifying and Terminating applications, and with pol.exe I disabled everything. Will this work?

[Feba]

*Foresees massive 500k account bannings in the possible future for use of windowers, then week later FFXI with windower support*Considering SE has reported that they only have about 500k accounts....


I don't think SE would do a mass banning for windower. It would simply take out too much of their playerbase. Hell, even back when IME was popular, even though it was EXTREMELY OBVIOUS that an NA client couldn't type in kana/kanji without some sort of modification, I never heard of a single banning. I'd even talked to GMs in times when they almost certainly would've seen me using IME in the chatlog, and they never said anything. One time I asked a GM about it in a way that made it pretty obvious that i'd used it, and what he said was basically "it's a third party tool, so I can't say yes." Not so directly, but that's essentially what he meant.

Not to mention with FFXI possibly having it's own window function soon enough, this move would even piss off players who don't use windower, such as people with multiple PCs, or people with 360/PS2 versions. Not to mention, if SE DID ban EVERYONE using windower, FFXI would basically die. Even assuming only 25% of the playerbase uses windower (which is fairly low, as most PC players i've met use it, and about 60% of the population is on PC. I'd actually say more about 50%), that's 1 in four of your friends gone. Quite a few LS totally wiped out. Many people would leave to join their banned friends in other games, many would leave because they can't talk to their friends anymore, and it would basically be a domino effect.

Think about how many times you see one person leave an LS, or get banned (especially in larger HNM shells), and then you slowly see everyone in that LS leave FFXI. Now imagine if that happened to about half of FFXI, and you see why SE would never ban everyone. They might ban a few as examples, but even that isn't very likely, as this would stop an estimated (and this is rough) 50% of the population from using it, and quite a few PC users don't want to play FFXI without windower.

EDIT: And as to my personal opinion on windower, I see nothing wrong with it by itself. Many plugins, such as draw distance, I find to be just fine, however things like TParty I will agree are a gray area. While I do find they are somewhat unfair to non-PC users, I also think that it should've been put in the GUI in some fashion. If I decide to come back, I will most likely not be using windower, however that is because I have at least two other computers (An old PC and an even older mac) that I can use to surf the web while playing, and fullscreen would be easier. However, I might use it for things such as draw distance, which only make the game look better (and honestly, SE could include it for the 360, I see no reason why PC can't), although i'd still be running it in full screen mode most likely.

And on .DAT edits, although it's sort of off track, SE seems to agree that icons and such need to be more illustrative, and i'm glad to see they're working to do what Faranim and such do (did?). While I don't find things like Faranim's, Brandson's, or MOST .dat/gui mods disruptive or wrong, things i've seen before, such as making coffers into giant neon green flags are definitely not good. Personally, I think SE should embrace the .dat modding community, and host files on it's site for people to download, and possibly even make a program to make .dat switching safer and easier, that way .dats which definitely hurt the game are easier to stop. I mean, if FFXI checks with a .dat modding program each time to make sure the swaps were certified or such, you could stop cheaters from going past their model viewer.

P.P.S. Goddamn it feels nice to rant about crap again!

[Jarre]

I see, so all the morally corrupt youth of Sweden depend on the country's laws to direct their ethical development?
You sound like a hipocrite.

Dak, don't start insulting a culture just because of their laws. it is still ilegal to share the material, just not to download it from another source.

The major problem with the internet is that it is lawless. Every country has their own "Usage" laws about what is and what isn't acceptable. As mentioned before unless a single world wide law is set in stone covering the use of the internet you will eb able to get away with more thigns in certain countries than others. This will not happen though, because most countries have their own idea of what should be law and I doubt a general consensus will be made.

It is not uncommon for an online game to scan your processes. Steam do it to check for hacks and cheat programes as part of the VAC program. Alot of microsofts software checks this and keys, hell its even worse now with Vista checking that your music and videos are legal copies and not pirated!!

In this day and age now companies are using tealth tactics to protect their interests and until someone wins a challenge against them suposedly "illegally scanning" your computer they will do it within the drop of a hat.

And to answer your question feba, I don't use windower, never had, never will and I use a pc. Up until 1 month ago I didn't even have a second computer (now have a laptop)

[Feba]

I don't think he's insulting the culture, seems more like he's making a statement that if someone wants to do something, they'll probably do it weither it's illegal or not.

The main reason I think people are upset about this is because we trust SE to not...well, act like a big name like steam or blizzard. Why? Because a lot of us are used to those places being infested with noobs.



In other news, someone want to check alla? my friend said that pikko posted something from SE saying that they aren't reading processes, although I only visit alla when i'm ego searching on google or when i'm viewing private files hosted there.

[IfritnoItazura]

Considering SE has reported that they only have about 500k accounts....

When/where did S-E report this number? I'm curious.

Even assuming only 25% of the playerbase uses windower (which is fairly low, as most PC players i've met use it, and about 60% of the population is on PC. I'd actually say more about 50%)
Is this a real number? Has S-E revealed the percentage of each type of clients used before?

[neighbortaru]

removing the sweden posts from this thread. go here (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/off-topics/64864-swedish-copyright-laws-spawned-se-spying-thread.html) if you want to continue that discussion.

[Feba]

Is this a real number? Has S-E revealed the percentage of each type of clients used before?When I make up numbers, I say so. Yes, it was about 60% on PC based on the last vana'diel census, at least among NA customers.

And yes, SE has used the 500,000 in official releases, look back through POL news and it's probably in there somewhere, at "FFXI breaks the 500,000 mark!" or something I beleive. Strangely, their figure hasn't moved up or down since then.

[IfritnoItazura]

When I make up numbers, I say so. Yes, it was about 60% on PC based on the last vana'diel census, at least among NA customers.
I just skimmed the 5th (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/The_5th_Vana%27diel_Census_%2805/16/2005%29) and 6th Vana'diel Census (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/The_6th_Vana%27diel_Census_%2806/23/2006%29), and couldn't find the figures for PC clients. On the other hand, the 6th one does say "over 500,000 players".

[Feba]

Well then, i'm not sure where it was, but I assure you it was from SE. Probably something in POL viewer, I don't remember though.

[Mhurron]

IIRC it was on screens from the Fan Festival. about 500K accounts, most NA players use Windows, something like 50-55% of Japanese players use the PS2, over 50% of players are Japanese. Stuff like that.

[Feba]

Oh, oh, that would explain it, yeah, I probably saw that at fan fest.

I wish I had a copy of my notes around someplace. Never bothered copying them off the alla thread, would be fun to read them again and see how much I'd forgotten.

Then again, I still missed about half of the event becausethe stupid PDA phone ran out of memory for my post or whatever happened >< Got so pissed off at that thing, nearly chucked it into the pacific.

[IfritnoItazura]

=/ I'm really interested in the information, and would love to have links to solid report of the actual numbers. Anyone?

[Malevolent]

Well I called POL customer service on friday to clarifiy the scanning. They refference the same section to the user guide as i did in these posts so i still asked why they were continuing to scan due to the it not scanning just POL files and services.I spoke with a supervisor "Joshua" and he said that they've been doing this scan for 3 weeks now and people are just now noticing. I told him we shouldn't have to notice the scan we should have been made aware of the scan in the begining. After about 10 mins of going back and forth on why our computers and files are and are not considered POL Services i adviced the supervisor that i will continue to block any attempts by POL or SE to scan the contents of my computer besides POL services and files. Also I asked the sup what happens to the info that is collected from the scans. He told me that it is submitted to a 3rd party admin to verfiy and identify 3rd party programs in link with FFXI. The Sup also added to continue blocking POL services to do their jobs will result in a termination of my content ID and will not be allowed to rejoin or play FFXI and i added any more attempts to scan my personal PC will result in legal action on my behalf.

So since i called from my job i put him on hold to let him know something. Here at my call center job all incoming and out going calls are monitored for training purposes, yes even if they're out going calls. So i reiterated any more attempets to pursue info besides POL Services and Files within POL will reslut in this call being submitted to the Better Buisness Bureau and also this call submitted to my lawyer to seek legal action. He hung up before i could finish my sentence. Normally wouldn't a innocent person stay on the line to hear what they customer said and give his rebuttle?

So tell me they aren't doing this scan illegally and unimformed to its members. Please show me where it tells me SE may scan its members computers/HD for unrelated to FFXI information.

The only reason i'm aggriveted about this is becasue i was hacked before when i was just an ameture with computers. It cost me close to $3k before the bank found out it was fraud and stollen. i still can't get a credit card or home loans due to this being a huge red mark on my credit. It ruined my life and i'm not about to let it happen again. What SE is doing i'm taking as a unautherized attack and an invasion. With only 3 semesters of law school under my belt it would be a good challenege to take this to court.

[Feba]

What's the likelyhood of a single person, still going through law school, to pose a real threat to a corporation with plenty of lawyers?

Not to mention I highly doubt he was trying to evade you, he was most likely just tired of it, he has a job, he has better things to do.

And BTW, SE has never cared about the BBB. The BBB rates them low practically for not being a member, and that's why complaints there tend to pile up.

[Nakti]

The Sup also added to continue blocking POL services to do their jobs [scanning non-POL processes] will result in a termination of my content ID and will not be allowed to rejoin or play FFXII really hope SE wouldn't do this.

A computer user has the right to protect the contents of their computer. If SE insists on having access to non-POL files, I expect them to have a separate "click" agreement before every session of FFXI. "Can" is not the same as "must". There is a big big difference between SE can look at POL-related files and SE must look at non-POL-files for you to be allowed to play.

People who work for Security System companies are bonded and are supposed to go through extra security checks for the simple reason that any one of them might use the monitoring for their own nefarious purposes. If POL is doing this scanning and sending the results to a 3rd party, I expect them to have proof of the same checks in place.

**************************

I will continue to protect my own computer from outside malicious attacks. This includes firewalls, virus-scanning, and soon I hope process intrusion protection.

btw, Are there any other HIPS besides ProcessGuard? And are there some good sites for recommended reading? While I have some programming background, I'm not very familiar with how process reading and modification works.

[Mhurron]

What SE is doing i'm taking as a unautherized attack and an invasion. With only 3 semesters of law school under my belt it would be a good challenege to take this to court.
So this is why you're the way you are. SE doesn't care how much law school you've done, they have a department that has done more. You also don't have the money to be a threat.

SE has never cared about the BBBNo one cares about the BBB. They don't do anything and are a meaningless organization.

[little ninja]

Sad part is no doubt the 3rd party admin is probably sending all other finidngs to other 3rd party sites.

I dont need this game an like the OP i dont need my life ruined because of this fraud. I have officially terminated my account...

[Murphie]

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

[Feba]

...

So what are you planning to continue this with?


"Wait, it's nohing, COMING BACK LOL."


Bye.

[little ninja]

So what are you planning to continue this with?
"Wait, it's nohing, COMING BACK LOL."
Bye.

I dunno i sometimes finish sentences like that. When it first started it was an accident, But noe i sometimes add it in there..

To be honest its stupid for SoE to pull something like this, An once again nobody will give much of a damn because its their beloved FFXI, An SoE can do nothing wrong.

[IfritnoItazura]

For those really concerned about POL scanning, maybe POL/FFXI can be sandboxed and run inside of a VM? That way, it can only scan the processes inside of VM, and the user have fair amount of control over what those processes are.

[Nakti]

For those really concerned about POL scanning, maybe POL/FFXI can be sandboxed and run inside of a VM? That way, it can only scan the processes inside of VM, and the user have fair amount of control over what those processes are. I'm not just concerned about POL scanning, I'm concerned about any program generally scanning my PC without my knowledge, *especially* a program that already sends and receives data from the Internet.

I naively thought Windows 32-bit systems were already supposed to prevent this sort of intrusion (each program supposed to have its own memory space etc). I'm interested in any way to keep programs "playing nice" on my PC. Even if I have to get a Mac lol.

And I wonder if the scanning will mysteriously stop after today's update? Either way, I'm testing out ProcessGuard tonight. I know it's not foolproof, but at least it's something.

[Feba]

To be honest its stupid for SoE to pull something like this, An once again nobody will give much of a damn because its their beloved FFXI, An SoE can do nothing wrong.

SoE has nothing to do with this.

[Mhurron]

I naively thought Windows 32-bit systems were already supposed to prevent this sort of intrusion (each program supposed to have its own memory space etc). I'm interested in any way to keep programs "playing nice" on my PC. Even if I have to get a Mac lol.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, oh damn thats funny.

BTW, neither Linux, Generic UNIX or OS X isolate processes memory like that. That is still the realm of special OS's. On top of that, is what POL doing reading allocated memory or files on a HDD, they're two very different things.

[AKosygin]

Well I called POL customer service on friday to clarifiy the scanning. They refference the same section to the user guide as i did in these posts so i still asked why they were continuing to scan due to the it not scanning just POL files and services.I spoke with a supervisor "Joshua" and he said that they've been doing this scan for 3 weeks now and people are just now noticing. I told him we shouldn't have to notice the scan we should have been made aware of the scan in the begining. After about 10 mins of going back and forth on why our computers and files are and are not considered POL Services i adviced the supervisor that i will continue to block any attempts by POL or SE to scan the contents of my computer besides POL services and files. Also I asked the sup what happens to the info that is collected from the scans. He told me that it is submitted to a 3rd party admin to verfiy and identify 3rd party programs in link with FFXI. The Sup also added to continue blocking POL services to do their jobs will result in a termination of my content ID and will not be allowed to rejoin or play FFXI and i added any more attempts to scan my personal PC will result in legal action on my behalf.

So since i called from my job i put him on hold to let him know something. Here at my call center job all incoming and out going calls are monitored for training purposes, yes even if they're out going calls. So i reiterated any more attempets to pursue info besides POL Services and Files within POL will reslut in this call being submitted to the Better Buisness Bureau and also this call submitted to my lawyer to seek legal action. He hung up before i could finish my sentence. Normally wouldn't a innocent person stay on the line to hear what they customer said and give his rebuttle?

So tell me they aren't doing this scan illegally and unimformed to its members. Please show me where it tells me SE may scan its members computers/HD for unrelated to FFXI information.

The only reason i'm aggriveted about this is becasue i was hacked before when i was just an ameture with computers. It cost me close to $3k before the bank found out it was fraud and stollen. i still can't get a credit card or home loans due to this being a huge red mark on my credit. It ruined my life and i'm not about to let it happen again. What SE is doing i'm taking as a unautherized attack and an invasion. With only 3 semesters of law school under my belt it would be a good challenege to take this to court.

I understand this field and there are weaknesses in this story that cast doubt on the credibility. While I am not calling you a liar and have not yet denounced your claims, I do request more evidence be presented than just your testimony, what you said about the POL customer service at this point is hearsay and hardly stands up against their official announcement denying it.

Weakness:

You did not mention HOW you discovered POL was scanning.
You did not mention HOW POL itself was scanning, lacking in any damning details to back your claim.
The way in which you may have put it during the conversation may have you thinking one way about scanning, and them thinking another way about scanning. When you were talking about scanning your computer, you were thinking hard drive, but were they thinking about your connection/server communication to their servers? Those are two different things and are on two seperate legal grounds.
You failed to ask them to cite what part of the Terms of Service or Privacy Policy gives them the authority to do what they do; and failed to refute them on those grounds. (doubt of legal experience)
Not everything is solved via court, remember there are arbitration clauses, and you have to make sure there isn't one. (doubt of research)
If a company leaks your credit card information, their violation of your privacy is one case (breach of contract), your financial loss due to their negligence is another (tort: negligence). And they carry different penalties. If you had prior issues where another company leaked your info due to THEIR negligence and not yours, then you got two grounds you can hit them with. But knowing how people are careless about computers.... (doubt of legal experience claim)
If it is a case of fraud and unauthorized credit charges, the bank ALWAYS take the hit. Costing you $3,000? What were you doing? And if it was discovered that it was fraud that caused your credit to go bad, the bank will remove that from your credit report because it isn't your fault. Unless, of course, YOU were negligent about keeping your info safe. (doubt of completeness of detrimental experience story)
The BBB does not have any legal force, and rarely do they even have any impact to online businesses. Your emphasis on it casts doubt in my eyes, may not for others though. (doubt of confidence in self legal grounds)
Ulterior motives: Were you banned for fish botting? Speed hack? Windower plug-in/add-on use? What really prompted you to ask?All you really need to do to refute my claims/contest is answer the second one and post technical details. But explaining the rest of my questions or defeating the points I put up will be a good path towards a solid claim to initiate community action.

[Celeal]

The OP is saying POL is scanning processes, not files, right?

Why not just stop those applications/processes before you launch POL? Let say close your Internet Explorer before you run POL... I know some processes needs to be running in order for Windows to function, but applications like e-mail client or Web Browser can be closed before you play FFXI.

If the application/process is not running, means nothing to scan (in memory space), thus nothing to worry about.

If POL is scanning files physically in the hard drive, then I would say it is an issue. However, according to the OP, it is not the case.

[IfritnoItazura]

Well. Um. Did anyone track what files POL.exe opens? >_>; I don't think the security tool in question (Process Guard) reprots that.

[little ninja]

Well. Um. Did anyone track what files POL.exe opens? >_>; I don't think the security tool in question (Process Guard) reprots that.

I dunno, mine said it blocked one of its actions, An i havent logged on since, Not since the huge problems with the R-0 issues. In Wow when i R-0'ed i managed to log back on alive, In FFXi i R-0 an end up dead.. No point for me to log on an ruin an hour or 2 of hard work..

Right now its still all he say she say, Fact remains the same, its starting to scan something. Maybe nothing we need to worry about now, but whos to say it wont change at the drop of a hat..

Its funny that we even bring up the BBB. Because by far SoE is rated as an F on the BBB rating scale.. http://www.labbb.org/BBBWeb/Forms/Business/CompanyReportPage_Expository.aspx?CompanyID=131680 63

[Jarre]

Intresting you talk of the BBB when this is on that page "This company is not a member of the Better Business Bureau. This fact does not disparage the company in any way."

Disparage acording to the Thesaurus means degrade i.e. because their not a member it doesn't affect/degrade their rating.

[Omecle]

Its funny that we even bring up the BBB. Because by far SoE is rated as an F on the BBB rating scale.. http://www.labbb.org/BBBWeb/Forms/Business/CompanyReportPage_Expository.aspx?CompanyID=131680 63

Just to clear things up, SoE is Sony. SEI is Square Enix.

[Telera]

Why not just stop those applications/processes before you launch POL? Let say close your Internet Explorer before you run POL... I know some processes needs to be running in order for Windows to function, but applications like e-mail client or Web Browser can be closed before you play FFXI.

I think the point is, they have zero domain, interest, or need to be looking at someone's browser, its history, their email client, their media players. None of this has any bearing upon FFXI. None of it is 'hax' that they're apparently so paranoid about that they've gone hay-wire.

If I was on PC, and that damn thing started looking at *my* internet history, broadcasting it to God only knows where, I'd stop using it, too. Granted, I don't bank or shop online, but many people do, and S-E hasn't vouched for where the data is going, or what is being done with it, or who is even looking at it. It's a massive problem waiting to happen.

Thankfully, I'm on PS2, and it looks like its going to stay that way until they tell us what exactly they're doing with the data, and why they even want it.

[Murphie]

But who are they broadcasting this to? Where is this silly idea coming from in the first place. As has already been pointed out, several times, SE already has all of my pertinent info anyway. And they haven't done anything with that. Why would they start now?

And a gigantic laugh to those who are still afraid to bank/shop online. I mean seriously folks, it's 2007.

edit: Heck, maybe this is SE's way of boosting console sales by chasing all of the people who think they are going to do something with this info off of the PC.

[Feba]

Looking at SE's BBB score is almost as pointless as reading a McDonalds review by a card carrying PETA member.

[Celeal]

I think the point is, they have zero domain, interest, or need to be looking at someone's browser, its history, their email client, their media players. None of this has any bearing upon FFXI. None of it is 'hax' that they're apparently so paranoid about that they've gone hay-wire.

If I was on PC, and that damn thing started looking at *my* internet history, broadcasting it to God only knows where, I'd stop using it, too. Granted, I don't bank or shop online, but many people do, and S-E hasn't vouched for where the data is going, or what is being done with it, or who is even looking at it. It's a massive problem waiting to happen.

Thankfully, I'm on PS2, and it looks like its going to stay that way until they tell us what exactly they're doing with the data, and why they even want it.

Can anyone prove that POL is scanning client's web browser's history or any content of any files/data that is not part for POL or FFXI?

[Feba]

Well since the only thing i've seen something talking about scanning with is ProcessGuard, try something else that monitors your computer.

Or more to the point, run a Packet monitor like WireShark, see if POL is sending anything, and if so, where.

[little ninja]

Not to long ago i went an downloaded FFXI on my backup hard drive. Its rarely connected to my usb port unless i need to save somethign to it, An even then it doesnt acess the internet. But when Nortons did its system scan, It scanned my external drive. An wouldnt you know it, pol.exe came up as a virus. It wasnt even up to date on its patchs, Not to sure why this one came up as a virus, but my other version didnt..

So who knows it might have been a fudged reading with processgaurd, An it might just very well be more retarded S.E coding. But then again you still cant leave out the possiblity that S.E might just very well hit a full system scan out of the blue on you or anyone they might suspect.

[Feba]

Windows Firewall usually reports Pol.exe as a virus. There's a LOT of legitimate apps out there that register as viruses or worse.

[Telera]

And a gigantic laugh to those who are still afraid to bank/shop online. I mean seriously folks, it's 2007.

Not afraid to, I used to buy alot of Game OSTs and whatnot online, but haven't in ages. I never had a problem at all. But, my bank is close enough to do what I have to do in person, as I'm often out near it or a branch of it whether at home or work. 90% of my bills are deliverable by driving distance and the one that isn't, ooh, mail. And there's nothing online I want to buy anymore. Not everyone likes to shop, shop. Nothing online that isn't in a store unless its aforementioned imported music and the like. And I have stores here that have that now as well. Afraid, and 'have no reason to' are two different things. Though, buying from random no-name sites online probably isn't very smart. My friend *did* have her CC info taken that way. But Amazon and those types are pretty well encrypted. No reason to fear those.

If it was more convenient for me to bother messing with the online portion, I might. So long as its easier to do it in person, I'll keep doing that. But I don't live in a big city anyway, so it probably won't ever be hard for me to do things in person.

[Murphie]

Ok, that really has nothing to do with the topic at hand. But thank you for explaining why you don't shop or bank online. I'm glad we're on the same page now.

[little ninja]

Windows Firewall usually reports Pol.exe as a virus. There's a LOT of legitimate apps out there that register as viruses or worse.

Thats pretty much what most firewalls say. Its a little bit to sensitive, But thats alot better then having a firewall that dont work, or worse having nothing.

My issue happened with nortons said pol.exe was a malisous virus, Kinda strange since the hard drive was clean before i installed it, An all i did was download the vana deil bundle from last year..

[Telera]

Ok, that really has nothing to do with the topic at hand. But thank you for explaining why you don't shop or bank online. I'm glad we're on the same page now.

I'm glad you brought it up in the first place! I mean, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but I was just burning for a chance to expound my views on the issue. You made my day brighter by merely opening the topic so I could totally derail the thread, because that was completely my intention. *insert eye roll*

As opposed to my point of:

PC = personal property

SE = Company scanning, even if not reading, said property

Scanning w/o notification of it happening = shady legal ground, even if it is benign.

Also, on viruses: Windows Firewall is shit at best anyway. People who played SWG with Windows Firewall often had issues with it swearing the game was assaulting the system, so I wouldn't trust anything Windows Firewall. Norton? Eh. Even worse. Lags up boot up, and again, reports things that aren't viruses as if they were the Black Plague. I think I had it tell me my ATI driver was a virus. Go figure.

[Murphie]

I prefer an implied eye roll.

We'll just have to agree to disagree about the travesty that is SE scanning your processes. I sincerely doubt they are going to do anything shady with the info, and until I'm proven wrong, I'll continue to feel that way.

[IfritnoItazura]

While I don't think S-E means "to do anything shady with the info", it would be nice if the company would tell us what they are doing.

While I can speculate about "comparing processes with list of known hacking programs, if match, terminate FFXI" or other nonsense, the developers really should just let us know why POL.EXE is "reading" other processes--the cheat program makers would find out soon anyway, and those bunch definitely won't tell us normal folks.

Keeping the purpose a secret is hardly a real security measure, while creating fear, doubt, and uncertainty with their customers. A bad move, all things considered.

[Murphie]

Only with their customers who are inclined to worry about this sort of thing. The impression I'm getting from this thread and others is that a fair number of folks, equal in number, if not greater to (based on the responses) the number of folks who do have a problem with it aren't really experiencing that much fear, doubt and uncertainty.

[Hantz]

fear, doubt and uncertainty.

Word. I reserve those feelings for career choices, relationships, and artistic endeavors. There's barely room to be paranoid about my metal box of wires.

[little ninja]

I prefer an implied eye roll.
We'll just have to agree to disagree about the travesty that is SE scanning your processes. I sincerely doubt they are going to do anything shady with the info, and until I'm proven wrong, I'll continue to feel that way.

Its not S.E im worried about with my information. Its the third party site they will be undoubtly giving the information to to scan for such things that relate to FFXI. Its what the 3rd party site does with all the other information.

Word. I reserve those feelings for career choices, relationships, and artistic endeavors. There's barely room to be paranoid about my metal box of wires.

You should be worried about your financial situations as well... Unless your a leech, An plan to leech off of mommy an daddy for even longer...

Til then i will be waiting for the "i dont" comment..

[Murphie]

Hantz is a fully grown adult with, I'm sure, control over his own finances. And as such, he knows very well what he should and shouldn't be worried about.

As for SE giving your information to some 3rd party who to misuse? Ha!

[AKosygin]

This thread is closed and has been moved up to the February version of Ask SquareEnix.