Multi Hit Polearm?

[Skoal]

I was just looking through weapons today on somepage.com. I noticed a lot of multi hit weapons: joytoy, ridill, kraken, mercurial kris, mercurial sword, bahamut zaghnal, soboro, amoods, and I think thats it. I was wondering would drg benefit from a low dmg multi hit weapon? Do wars use amood or dark amood? I understand that sometimes multi hit one handed weapons are used for quick tp gain. Since our ws are sub par, would we even have a use for a multi hit polearm?

I am aware of Love Halbred and how it works. I was thinking along the lines of an easier obtainable polearm. Some of the weapons above are hard to get some are not. Thanks for the info.

[Sevv]

most of the low damage weapons you use to sc because your ws really do lack from them.

as for joytoy, ridill they are not really low damage for swords and work great for tp. The kraken club is one of the best off hand weapons for a dual weilder (mob your fighting and tp moves depend if it is really worth the tp)

Merc Swrd i have one and i use it for skill up only.

Multi hit weapons drg can use: Joytoy, Kraken, Merc Pole.

[silentsteel]

Would Multi-Hit stuff work for Penta-Thrust? (such as double attack) like for each individual hit, not the whole entire thing

[Skoal]

Would Multi-Hit stuff work for Penta-Thrust? (such as double attack) like for each individual hit, not the whole entire thing

There is a thread on allah in the mnk section about this. I think what has been determined is that 8 hits is the max on weapon skills.

[silentsteel]

so double hit could proc 3 times on penta thrust assuming all of them hit to end up having an 8 hit penta thrust? (just trying to make sense of it XD)

[Sevv]

most hits per round is 8 basically even if on each penta double attack went off you would still only hit (do damage) on 8 hits not 10

[Vyuru]

most hits per round is 8 basically even if on each penta double attack went off you would still only hit (do damage) on 8 hits not 10


Yup, I once had double attack fire off on penta thrust and I got back 20 tp (13 tp first hit, then 1 tp per hit after that so that was a 8 hit penta)

[Lmnop]

multi-hit effects on weapons DO NOT activate on Weapon Skill. At least, this is how all old-school multi-hitters work. Basically, anything that hits multiple times w/out having to meet a condition (latent effect: shitty moon phase[amood] or "when virtue stones are equipped") won't stack with multi-hit traits and won't activate on WS.

Since the conditional multi-attacks are confirmed to stack with the traits (Fortitude Axe 2A can proc a War's 2A), I wouldn't doubt that they also activate on WS. But I really wouldn't know. If so, then Love Halberd ftw.

Mercurial Pole, capped staff, mage sub, Relic helm, Spirit Taker.

[Sevv]

ya lmnop im working on getting the merc pole atm for that set up lmao (^.^)b

also Vyru the max tp return from penta is 17 or 18 with /sam and rajas you get 20~ every time.

i should really update the sig pic lol get outa the af >.>

[Lmnop]

i should really update the sig pic lol get outa the af >.>

Roots, man. Roots.

[LilithAngel]

Roots, man. Roots.

Indeed. Get Drachen Mail +1, you can sport the purple *and* get nice stats.

Have cake. Eat cake. Still have cake. All good! :thumbsup:

[Empedocles]

Personally, the only real usefulness in multi-hit weapons I've seen is in two ways:
1. For RDM/sub or main/RDM with en-spell damage.
2. For off-hand useage for TP gain / main hand for RNG's ranged weapons.

I don't see DRG benefitting all that much from an "Average" Multi-hit weapon (I think Love Halberd can be classed as an "Excellent" Multi-hit).


Have cake. Eat cake. Still have cake. All good! :thumbsup:

Can I have this in my sig? XD (Credit to you, ofcourse)

[LilithAngel]

Go for it dude, all you!

[IfritnoItazura]

Personally, the only real usefulness in multi-hit weapons I've seen is in two ways:
1. For RDM/sub or main/RDM with en-spell damage.
2. For off-hand useage for TP gain / main hand for RNG's ranged weapons.

I've seen Soboro Sukehiro in action--the damage output is quite nice from it alone. Supposedly it's an even better deal with used as SAM/RNG for spamming Sidewinder.

[Sevv]

ya soboro and sidewinder spam is amazing lol

i like my roots but af2 im in is sexier =P

[Lmnop]

Relic > AF. Can't argue with that. Dark Blue and better detail > Barney purple.

[LadyKiKi]

Give me a multi-hit polearm and I'll use DRG more than my BST for stuff. Then again at the moment I'm on my THF mining only. A friend lent me some Strider Boots. I'm doing everything somewhat 12% faster!!!

[Sevv]

unless they put base damage on a multi hit pole arm pretty high i wouldnt use it drg/sam brutal earring for the win =P

[Malacite]

Seeing as every single multi-hit 2-hander has sucked, no.


Put a critical hit clause into pentathrust and we'll talk.

[Sevv]

s-e should just add to mezraq occaisonally attacks 2-8 times and subtle blow +20 and i would be happy >.> lmao

[LilithAngel]

Might as well make Mezraq the new Relic Polearm then, cuz how many Dragoons amongst all servers even have Gae Assail/Gungnir? Five as of the '06 census? On top of how much effort it takes to amass the currency needed for a Relic, it also takes having a LS that'll go through the trouble of getting a Dragoon thier items (and from what I've seen and heard, most LSs only bother to "waste time on Relics" if it's for Gjallerhorn or Aegis, or the person in question is the LS leader/loot whore).

As far as multi-hits, Soboro Sukehiro is amazing for SAM, just kinda makes me wonder why SE hasn't released an equally good M-H for the rest of the zweihanders. Love Halberd doesn't count, as it isn't always the easiest of weapons to obtain for most Dragoons (even ones in most EGLSs; they tend to get put on the back burner more often than not :worry: ).

[Sevv]

i have had 2 ls come forward when i was starting to do gungir but i couldnt keep up with consistant gil flow and took on partners who fell into the same problem so i had to stop. I will one day go for gungir again =P

[LilithAngel]

Then you're one of the lucky few, Sev. That's definitely the exception, not the rule, on Kujata, or most servers, for that matter. :worry:

[eticket109]

SE will need to raise the cap on Gungnir before they can justify adding a multi-hit polearm of any worth. The gap between the Mezraq/Mezraq +1/Triton and the Gungnir is just too narrow to introduce anything. As much as I'd love to see a latent polearm like the Juggernaut, Destroyers or Blau Doch, I just don't see it happening with us as top-heavy as we are right now.

[Lmnop]

Love Halberd is technically more amazing than Soboro... still, have fun with JoL. Especially when you're the one job they don't want to come.

end game multi-hitters are unfortunately > Relic weapons.

It sucks.

[Skoal]

This crap (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Stone-splitter) is our latent weapon that drops from the same ENM Blau does.

[LilithAngel]

The gap between the Mezraq/Mezraq +1/Triton and the Gungnir is just too narrow to introduce anything.

Not really. 94-100 is still a 6 point gap that one could easily put a new Polearm or two in, and Mighty Lance hits 99 on Firesday, so it's not like it hasn't been done before (it's just that Mighty Lance sucks Mighty Hard). Besides, that 100 base DMG rating on Gungnir is a bit misleading; the Big G has a hidden "Randomly multiples final damage total x3" trait that really sends the damage output off the deep end (I seriously wanna see a few SSs of some WSs that had that trait + crits go off, they've *gotta* be sick :biggrin: Gungnir-and-Shadow-Gorget-powered Penta Thrust, anyone?).

Besides, a M-H Polearm prolly would be better served if the DMG rating actually was in the (high) 80s instead; if we got a M-Her that had the 90s+ that just about everything good 70+ has, we'd be needing more than the 5 levels availiable in merits for High and Super Jump. ;)

Oh well, we could hope.

[Sevv]

ya i am lucky just knowing and helping alot of people. as well as teaching ls how to pull ice helps out ^.^b but if your serious enough i have heard of just paying for the glass and getting ur attestions if your buying currency it should be too much trouble. And ya our latent weapon fails horribly.

[eticket109]

I was referring primarily to the DPS rating though.

I'm well aware of the hidden on the relics too. lol >.> I'm not debating the uberness of Gungnir... though I doubt I'll ever go for it because the difference isn't worth the expenditures imo.

There just doesn't seem to be as much of a gap anymore.

[Karinya]

SE will need to raise the cap on Gungnir before they can justify adding a multi-hit polearm of any worth. The gap between the Mezraq/Mezraq +1/Triton and the Gungnir is just too narrow to introduce anything. As much as I'd love to see a latent polearm like the Juggernaut, Destroyers or Blau Doch, I just don't see it happening with us as top-heavy as we are right now.

There already is a latent polearm, but it's frequently panned because it's not a lance. FFXIclopedia lists it as D71 (active) DL396, with hidden Acc+5 Atk+24 (!) while active. If you're just looking at normal swings it's a great weapon, but dragoons also jump, and a low damage low delay spear does less damage per jump and returns less TP per jump than a lance.

The main problem with high level polearms IMO is that Mezraq is too good, it overshadows everything except Gungnir. That much raw damage would be amazing even without the eva down proc. They should have made it more like 90, or even 88, so that Orichalcum Lance, Stonesplitter, Gondo-Shizunori, Dreizack, Leviathan's Couse, Colossal Lance and Imperial Neza didn't all instantly become obsolete. Each of those weapons would have its advantages, and probably its adherents, 7 days a week (and on the eighth day Mighty Lance, too), if Mezraq didn't exist or had a little less DMG; now they're all junk. KS30, KS99, and ENM weapons shouldn't be so easily crushed by a simple crafted item.

I think they may have deliberately given DRG an overpowered weapon to combat player perception that it was a weak job, but the problem is that it never *was* a weak job; now it's a strong job with no variety in weapon selection. It's Mezraq or it's crap. And now that pretty much every DRG75 has one, nerfing Mezraq would nerf everyone who has a Mezraq, which would be horribly unpopular; but they're hardly likely to add 2-3 DMG to every other high level polearm to make something else worth using again.

[eticket109]

Yeah, that was along the lines of what I meant. The Mez just sets the bar so high, it would be difficult to introduce anything that would draw many DRGs to it.

I should have specified that it would be nice to see a latent 'lance'. lol

[LilithAngel]

There already is a latent polearm, but it's frequently panned because it's not a lance. FFXIclopedia lists it as D71 (active) DL396, with hidden Acc+5 Atk+24 (!) while active. If you're just looking at normal swings it's a great weapon, but dragoons also jump, and a low damage low delay spear does less damage per jump and returns less TP per jump than a lance.

The main problem with high level polearms IMO is that Mezraq is too good, it overshadows everything except Gungnir. That much raw damage would be amazing even without the eva down proc. They should have made it more like 90, or even 88, so that Orichalcum Lance, Stonesplitter, Gondo-Shizunori, Dreizack, Leviathan's Couse, Colossal Lance and Imperial Neza didn't all instantly become obsolete. Each of those weapons would have its advantages, and probably its adherents, 7 days a week (and on the eighth day Mighty Lance, too), if Mezraq didn't exist or had a little less DMG; now they're all junk. KS30, KS99, and ENM weapons shouldn't be so easily crushed by a simple crafted item.

I think they may have deliberately given DRG an overpowered weapon to combat player perception that it was a weak job, but the problem is that it never *was* a weak job; now it's a strong job with no variety in weapon selection. It's Mezraq or it's crap. And now that pretty much every DRG75 has one, nerfing Mezraq would nerf everyone who has a Mezraq, which would be horribly unpopular; but they're hardly likely to add 2-3 DMG to every other high level polearm to make something else worth using again.

QFT.

For eTick: Looking at DPS on Relics is pointless. They all have listed and/or hidden traits that kick in so randomly/often that trying to base your judgment on that alone doesn't do the weapon justice. Excal's DPS fluctuates so randomly and rapidly that the number written down has little meaning, while what's on paper for Apoc, Cat, Ame-No, and Big G is actually gimped compared to what they really do.

It's akin to someone saying "The sun is yellow" during a heatwave in the middle of summer in a desert.

"Yeah? Your point?"

[eticket109]

lol

Yes, DPS is a broad generalization at times. No, no other lances are close to Gae Assail or Gungnir beyond the three that I mentioned. Sure, 'close' may be quite relative in this case. Yes, Gungnir is amazing. I realize that. I do find the comparison to Excalibur a bit ridiculous though. The hidden/latent effect on Excalibur deals damage proportionate to the user's HP, in addition to the occasional triple damage. Regardless, that doesn't take away from the Gungnir's overall allure. However, with all that said, I don't feel the difference between it and the Mezraq justifies the ludricrious cost, time and effort involved to get it. You might, others might, but at this point I don't.

To restate my original point. The addition of the Mezraq made us rather top heavy as far as endgame lances go. I don't see how they could introduce a high damage/multi-hit polearm without readjusting the cap on polearms as it stands now.

[Lmnop]

i.e. any lance made to compete with Mez would be one more item to cut a bit of glory off of the Gungnir.

I honestly think every relic weapon needs re-worked. Shock Spikes? Mercy Stroke is STR based? All the 2 handers do 2x damage at best, i've heard, while the one handers - you know, the ones that swing more anyway - get up to 3x. Not to mention that all of the Relic WS animations are just recycled animations with new firework layers stacked on top of them. Oh, and their hidden effects are varying in uselessness.

Relic weapons leave me sour.

[eticket109]

What? No reason Geirskogul shouldn't have AGI as the modifier... I mean its not like that goes against every equipment build we pretty much have or anything.

[LilithAngel]

As well as having it give us Shock Spikes cuz, y'know, Dragoons are asked to tank all the time against dragons cuz, y'know, we have Dragon Killer and all that jazz. Paladins have nothing on us, what with their Hrottis and Tatami Shields and Demon Earrings and whatnot... :huh:


[/sarcasm off]

Yeah, Big G (and all Relics, honestly) need to be reworked. Every Relic weapon should *absolutely* and *completely* DESTROY every single weapon in its class, no exceptions. Y'know, let them actually be called the Ultimate [Insert Weapon Class Here], and have it mean it. If they're designed to be as rare as SE said they want them to be, then go ahead and actually make them completely game-breaking. If it costs so much in resources and time, then yeah, let them be rediculously and insanely powerful; that's the point, isn't it?

The effort to go into a Relic is tremendous; everyone knows that. But for a lot of them, the cost vs. reward ratio isn't what it should be, and the effort would've been better spent on other gear and suitable substitutes (as far as weapons go). Aegis and Gjallerhorn are the only two that are universally lauded as useful, and they're not even technically weapons; that's sad in my book.

But enough ranting on Relics from me. As far as the OT is concerned, yeah, Mezraq pretty much stole most of Big G's thunder, and there's isn't much room to improve upon it w/o seriously risking Big G's status as a Relic. The only logical step would be to introduce a M-H Polearm that has a base DMG somewhere in the 80s that has a fairly high proc rate. After that, what else can SE come up with that's doesn't trump Big G? If one Relic gets changed, every one else will want theirs changed too.

"Well, Dragoon got their Gungnir changed, why can't I have my Apocalypse/Catastrophe/Ame-no-Murakumo/InsertRandomRelicHere changed too? /whine /bitch /moan /etc"

You get the picture. :rolleyes:

[Malacite]

Forgot about Soboro lol >. <

But Soboro is also an exception; it's amazing because it allows a SAM to spam sidewinder for rediculous damage.


Anyway, back on topic:

Yeah, Big G (and all Relics, honestly) need to be reworked. Every Relic weapon should *absolutely* and *completely* DESTROY every single weapon in its class, no exceptions. Y'know, let them actually be called the Ultimate [Insert Weapon Class Here], and have it mean it. If they're designed to be as rare as SE said they want them to be, then go ahead and actually make them completely game-breaking. If it costs so much in resources and time, then yeah, let them be rediculously and insanely powerful; that's the point, isn't it?

The effort to go into a Relic is tremendous; everyone knows that. But for a lot of them, the cost vs. reward ratio isn't what it should be, and the effort would've been better spent on other gear and suitable substitutes (as far as weapons go). Aegis and Gjallerhorn are the only two that are universally lauded as useful, and they're not even technically weapons; that's sad in my book.


QFTMFT

Seriously, come on SE. Destroyers are THE perfect example; why the hell even bother with Spharai when you can get these and unlock them? The only reason spharai pulls ahead is because of the 2.5 damage mod, and just barely since it doesn't even work on WS, only regular hits.

SE really ought to make Relic a bit more attainable I think. Not saying they shouldn't be rare, but it's just too much; 1-3 people per server taking an entire year to get their relic? Come on SE. That's not my idea of fun.

I also think Relic Armor (especially the lol+1) should be a lot better. The drop rate on them sucks, and the mods just aren't good enough to me. AF was originally called "Final Armor" b4 the level cap went up past 60, and relic is supposed to be a stronger AF. Well, how about making it perform like "Final Armor" ?



Sorry for the thread derailment ^^;

[Karinya]

The effort to go into a Relic is tremendous; everyone knows that. But for a lot of them, the cost vs. reward ratio isn't what it should be, and the effort would've been better spent on other gear and suitable substitutes (as far as weapons go).
I think that's intentional, and I also think it's a good thing. Unless you already have the best possible everything else, you probably should focus on getting everything else and *then* the relic weapon. But in the meantime you're making some progress, not just making your useless weapon slightly less useless.

Seeing everyone with a Gungnir would be even worse (IMO) than seeing everyone with a Mezraq.

The one thing I disagree with is making the primary barrier a matter of money. The NMs are practically trivial compared to accumulating 20,000 dynamis currency, which means that relic weapons are primarily the sign of a gilbuyer, and I think that's pretty sad. But the overall difficulty being so high is a good thing.

[LilithAngel]

Unless you already have the best possible everything else, you probably should focus on getting everything else and *then* the relic weapon. But in the meantime you're making some progress, not just making your useless weapon slightly less useless.

I fully and absolutely agree with this. Relic should be the *last* thing anyone should go for once you've more or less gotten everything else that's good for the job. Unfortunately, they're nowhere near as good as they should be for such a type of quest/reward; compared to when you suggest a person gets them, they're only slighly better than prolly what you're packing now. That's completely wrong; a Relic weapon should *amazingly* outclass anything of its type. Period.

As far as I'm concerned, I've more or less got most of what coul be considered "the best" gear a Dragoon can get, outside of Ares's Set and a full Homam (damn Hecatomb to the blackest pits of Hell! I refuse to waste gil on that junk :vent:), both of which requires a hefty expenditure on the player's part, as well as needing to have a LS or group of friends willing to do those things just to get that stuff for you. So when I look at Big G, I get rather upset for several reasons:

1> Compared to Mezraq, Big G just isn't all that.

2> I put in the effort to get Mezraq when it first came out, and I refused to pay the rediculous prices on the materials, so I mined them. All *four* of them (Khroma Ore). The drop rate for that ore in Mount Zhayolm is stupidly low. :wtf: I feel as if I've already gotten my Relic, so why bother with the real one?

3> I often don't have the time to put into getting much Dynamis done lately, and it's a shame too, cus I'm about half done with my Relic Armor set (need body, helm, and belt).

4> This subject is where some of the old "loldrg" predjudice is still around. "Why are we gonna bother getting you Gungnir when we can get our lead Paladin/Bard/Loot-whore-and-ass-kisser-supreme Aegis/Gjallerhorn/WhateverRelicTheyWant and actually have that better serve the LS as a whole?" Yeah, stuff it; I'm collecting for a reason as well, and it's not just to cover my share of the cost of the run :angry:.


All that, for a Polearm that gives a crap hidden effect on its WS, a WS that's basically Wheeling Thrust 2, and a base DMG rating only marginally higher than the HQ of a *crafted* weapon. And that's just Polearm.

Don't get me started on Guttler. :wasted:

[Karinya]

Unfortunately, they're nowhere near as good as they should be for such a type of quest/reward; compared to when you suggest a person gets them, they're only slighly better than prolly what you're packing now. That's completely wrong; a Relic weapon should *amazingly* outclass anything of its type. Period.

I strongly disagree. First, the difference is bigger than you're giving it credit for already. Second, and more importantly, it *shouldn't* be too big - because the performance difference between Gear X and Gear Y is also the performance difference between Player X (who has that gear) and Player Y (who doesn't), if both are equally competent at their jobs. Players shouldn't be defined by their gear.

This is something of a double bind for MMO designers: players want to have something to strive for after they reach the level cap, but if gear has too much impact on performance, the playerbase becomes divided into haves and have-nots, and game balance goes out the window.

Any encounter that is challenging to people in pretty good gear is necessarily less challenging to people in awesome gear, but if the size of the difference between the two is kept under control, the encounter can still be challenging to people in awesome gear. If not it becomes trivialized.

Worse, an encounter that is challenging to people in great gear can be completely insurmountable to people in average gear (if the difference between the two is sufficiently large). Then gear becomes an obstacle rather than a reward and you get people who can't even try Fight Y because they don't already have Gear X.

SE has avoided that trap so far, and I hope they continue to avoid it. And the main way they have avoided it is to keep a lid on the power, and thus the importance, of gear. Even Relics. Mr. Aegis dies to Throat Stab > Astral Flow just like anyone else.


P.S. If you recognize that they have a lower reward/cost ratio and that's why you're saving them till last, isn't it a bit unfair to then complain that when you get to them (having already gotten everything else you wanted) their reward/cost ratio is lower than everything else? Something has to be the lowest reward/cost or there would be no diminishing returns.

[Malacite]

While I agree about the whole gear being too good thing, some relics really are underpowered (lolSpharai)

Also by it's not a likely scenario that a lot of people are going to suddenly come into posesion of game-breaking weapons.

Lastly, making the relics the all-powerful weapons they should be gives SE more room to create other weapons/armor at various power levels. I for one, am sick of the recent trend that leads to multitudes of similar end-game gear. AF+1, Relic, Assault Gear, Cursed Gear etc.... yes, there's a lot of good stuff out there, but it feels like there are too many similarly good/marginally better pieces for each slot.

How about something unique for a change, that's actually feasible to attain (lolSalvage)

[Sevv]

I think that's intentional, and I also think it's a good thing. Unless you already have the best possible everything else, you probably should focus on getting everything else and *then* the relic weapon. But in the meantime you're making some progress, not just making your useless weapon slightly less useless.
Seeing everyone with a Gungnir would be even worse (IMO) than seeing everyone with a Mezraq.
The one thing I disagree with is making the primary barrier a matter of money. The NMs are practically trivial compared to accumulating 20,000 dynamis currency, which means that relic weapons are primarily the sign of a gilbuyer, and I think that's pretty sad. But the overall difficulty being so high is a good thing.

Most people dont go into making a relic solo there is a few on my server who are going to do a solo relic. Both are extremley rich crafters. Most Relics are "ls owned" lmao still love that part, but still not too many people can buy a relic. If you buy enough gil to purchase a relic you seriously in all due respect need to get a life lmao. Ill spend the 3 hours crafting then the couple weeks of working irl to buy that kind of gil. I went into on my own and ran out of gil, but the NMs are harder then getting gil, you can easily walk into the downs and buy 20,000 currency on any given night.

[Lmnop]

Relic Horn.

What can a Guttler do that could ever compare?

[Sevv]

E peen +1

I just can say ya ill drop that kind of gil why because its not rel money so i dont really care if i spend it all lmao (^.^)b

[eticket109]

Most of the completed relics I've known have been done through small 12-24 person farming shells. There's an offshoot of my dynamis shell that's completed 3 or 4 that way.

[Sevv]

jp ls on ifrit is on relic 8 i believe from what i have been told and have 2=3 others finishing up as well they just busting out relics

[LadyKiKi]

I still use Martial Lance ... :(

*KiKi hides in a corner.

I died on a BCNM run on DRG. I'm at 74 now. :rofl: ... need to quickly solo it back to 75.

No Mezraq yet, still saving ...

[Sevv]

how much are mez on your server people are shout selling them for under 750k here lol

[Sidra]

I don't think that the Mezraq comes even close to stepping on Gungnir's toes. 6 base damage difference, no random triple dmg proc, and no potent 1 hit WS. Also don't forget about the 20 Accuracy.

There is still room for a new lance considerably better than the mezra that still is far enough behind Gungnir to make it worth the effort.

[LilithAngel]

I don't think that the Mezraq comes even close to stepping on Gungnir's toes. 6 base damage difference, no random triple dmg proc, and no potent 1 hit WS. Also don't forget about the 20 Accuracy.

I've parsed Mighty Lance on Firesday against Mezraq, and if 5 base damage is barely noticeable, 6 won't be either. The random damage multiplier on the Relics has been reported to be roughly 10%, so call it a super crit if you like, but it's not enough to really pull ahead much. As for Gierskogul, most of the Dragoons that have Big G have come to this general consensus:

Impulse Drive is to Double Thrust as Gierskogul is to Wheeling Thrust.

In other words, nothing special. Wait, nevermind, I retract that. "Uber" Shock Spikes. :rolleyes:

The 20 Accuracy is indeed something good on a weapon, but depending on your setup, you won't see much use out of it (either you're going Acc setup, eating meat, and you'll hit your cap, or you're going STR/Att, and eating sushi, so you're at cap anyways). You could use Big G to replace both SH and O Hat, and swap in STR/Att gear, but that's about it. To me, a Relic weapon should be *so* much more than simply a "replacement" for other gear (i.e. not the weapon that it's replacing).

As far as it "not being fair" to complain about the Relics, tell me, how is it fair to the people that've put the time, gil, and effort to get all the other gear that's "the best" for a job, then work the few years/whatever it takes to get the Relic, then find out that what they had just before is almost as good/better than the Relic? It's not. Not one bit. And if that person put all that effort to be good before the Relic, they *absolutely* deserve a weapon that eclipses what they had before.

One puts in that much effort to get the gil, items, resources, and public contacts/networking that goes into a Relic, you better damn believe they expect to have fights be easier. Again, if it's not, then what's the point? I know I can't be the only one that takes issue with how badly designed the Relics other than Aegisjaller are.

Mr. Aegis is an idiot, and doesn't deserve that shield, if he can't figure out to simply turn around. :biggrin:

[Sevv]

The 20 Accuracy is indeed something good on a weapon, but depending on your setup, you won't see much use out of it (either you're going Acc setup, eating meat, and you'll hit your cap, or you're going STR/Att, and eating sushi, so you're at cap anyways)


hey with my tp set up and gungir i could hit 99.9% on anything lmao, all the gungir will do as lilithangel pointed to was add acc to most end game drg have alot of it maxed out for tp gain and dot on gods/hnm.

As much as i hate to say it gungir is kind of a dissapointment in relics (not saying i dont want one still)

[Sidra]

You are being unfair to Gierskogul. Against weak mobs, Penta Thrust is more potent. But the amount of damage it can do on Fafhogg, Wyrms, and other harder enemies versus what Wheeling Thrust does is quit large. It has a 3.0 fTP mod. That is quite potent, and I'd happily take a weaponskill that does 600 damage to Fafnir as opposed to 400 or lets me Sneak Attack Weaponskill a God or Tiamat for 1100 as opposed to 700-800 at 100TP.

Also, you are incorrect about the attack cap. It takes well over 700 attack to cap ATT/DEF on most XP mobs (and copnsiderably higher on HNM). Even given meat, berserk, and a minuet you still have a ways to go. The 20 accuracy does free up other slots for str/att that is beneficial.

[Lmnop]

ideally, a Relic weapon would mean that no HNMLS would deny you the right to melee anything. A Drg with G-slice should be on Tiamat full time.

But obviously, this game wasn't designed brilliant enough for that.

S-E gave mobs tp, just like players, in an effort to avoid the pitfall of other games: Zerging. Throwing 18 people at mob instead of 6 means 3x as much tp for said mob. This is a very clever balancing factor, but they really overdid it. They should get 1/3rd tp, just like players do. Instead they get (your tp/swing)+3.

They gave "uber" stats, but seriously. It's not like they'll perform any differently on Kirin. +20 mp/minute means something. Never taking significant damage means something. Light->Light skillchains were supposed to mean something -- honestly, I'm not sure why it doesn't. I guess free nuking is just much easier.

Relic weapons were designed when the best thing a Dragoon could equip on his feet gave them attack+4. If they wanted better, they had to contend with rediculous amounts of +slow%.

80% of the gear in this game is just taking up space. :/ the AH is starting to look like food did before the food update.

[Sevv]

You are being unfair to Gierskogul. Against weak mobs, Penta Thrust is more potent. But the amount of damage it can do on Fafhogg, Wyrms, and other harder enemies versus what Wheeling Thrust does is quit large. It has a 3.0 fTP mod. That is quite potent.

Ws wise Sidra ive heard it amazing there is a jp dragoon on my server with it. Some of the jps said Gierkogul is just plan amazing. But outside the ws the gungir really lacks that wow factor that makes it 100x better then the mezraq.

[Karinya]

But that's the point - if it were 100x better, you'd kill HNMs in one WS.

There's a limit on how much gear can add to a character's power before it starts trivializing encounters, and SE (wisely, IMO) intentionally set the power limit on gear lower than other MMOs.

It's not what you're wearing, it's who you have with you, how good your strategy is and how good you are at carrying it out that defines success in a challenging FFXI encounter. Equipment can help, but it won't make you succeed (or fail). And I, for one, like it like that. A super-kill-everything-instantly weapon would be fun for about a day and then you'd realize there's nothing left to do in the game.

If anyone really thinks that a 10% chance to do triple damage - that can proc ON a crit or WS - in addition to 20 acc, higher damage than any other lance and a unique WS is insignificant, they really need to look up "insignificant" in the dictionary, because it doesn't mean what they think it means. Gungnir won't win your fights for you - nor should it - but I bet it doesn't take hours of parsing to tell the difference between it and Mezraq, either.

[Empedocles]

ok guys, I have to agree with Karinya here... on the topic of Gungnir being weak,at least it's not Apocalypse...

Oh and before I type more crap, SevIfrit changed his picture!

[Sevv]

But that's the point - if it were 100x better, you'd kill HNMs in one WS.
There's a limit on how much gear can add to a character's power before it starts trivializing encounters, and SE (wisely, IMO) intentionally set the power limit on gear lower than other MMOs.
It's not what you're wearing, it's who you have with you, how good your strategy is and how good you are at carrying it out that defines success in a challenging FFXI encounter. Equipment can help, but it won't make you succeed (or fail). And I, for one, like it like that. A super-kill-everything-instantly weapon would be fun for about a day and then you'd realize there's nothing left to do in the game.
If anyone really thinks that a 10% chance to do triple damage - that can proc ON a crit or WS - in addition to 20 acc, higher damage than any other lance and a unique WS is insignificant, they really need to look up "insignificant" in the dictionary, because it doesn't mean what they think it means. Gungnir won't win your fights for you - nor should it - but I bet it doesn't take hours of parsing to tell the difference between it and Mezraq, either.


Ok not sure if this was directed just at me or a general comment but I will respond for myself. I never said it was "insignificant", hell I was the NA/EU Player on ifrit going for the Gungir, because it is amazing the ws and just highest delay as well as triple damage. I wasnt asking for a one shot lance i was just saying for the difference in stats (not counting the ws) with the mezraq pulling a close second and only costing ~600k on my server, i jut WISHED it had a bigger gap between the two. And I would trade that 20 acc for 20 attack on the lance any day of the week. Will and am I going for the gungir still of course looking in my sig, it is the one thing I want in this game that is a challenge.

ok guys, I have to agree with Karinya here... on the topic of Gungnir being weak,at least it's not Apocalypse...
Oh and before I type more crap, SevIfrit changed his picture!

Ya lol thanks to Eohmer! that was somewhere on this thread lmao, oh and /derail wasnt this about Multihit polearm not a gungir bash lmao.

[Sidra]

Relic Weapons are made to make you considerably better at your job, not change the manner in which you play the job. What I mean by that is that you should not all of a sudden start mele'ing things thar were previously un-meleable. Tactics really should not change. You do the exact same things that you did before, but now when you do the you do about 20% more damage than you did before.

The exception to this would be Ghjallorn (sp?) and to a lesser extent Aegis. Those 2 weapons can change tactics.

[Sevv]

The exception to this would be Ghjallorn (sp?) and to a lesser extent Aegis. Those 2 weapons can change tactics.

no they just break the game, they really are on a different level then any of the other relics.

[LilithAngel]

Yeah, that's the point of Relics, to make one better, but I disagree by how much of a degree that they make one better. My stance is that they don't perform *well enough* to make the effort worth it; either reduce the total costs to attain them to fall in line with their relative power upgrade, or increase their effectiveness *significantly* to make thier current costs worth it.

As far as the whole not knowing the meaning behind certain words, tell that to the people that actually *have* the Relics. I tend to give more weight to the words of those that have the experience themselves than to what everyone "says" about the things. There's a DRK on Kujata that's rarely seen using his Apoc in combat, HNM/exp/otherwise, simply because he's more satisfied with some of the other weapons he gained from BS/KS/IS drops and the AH. I've seen Paladins and Red Mages who use Excal, and readily admit that it is an *insignificant* (omg that word!) improvement over what they normally use, and would *KILL* for a chance to use Ridill instead (WAR: "What's a Bravura? I dunno, I'mma keep spamming my Ridill LOL!"). Monks laugh at Spharai.

How much you wanna bet that the one Guttler in service amongst *all* of SE's customers... ...is still the only one in service (if you call it that :huh:).

The point here is that some people want that much effort to be rewarded with an equally large and sustantial boost to thier performance, but will not recieve it due to the Relics other than Aegisjaller being an insigificant (yes, I said it again, and will continue to say it, because that's what it is) boost over the topline gear availiable through "normal" means. The key word in all my posts is *topline*. Not average, not "oh kewl, you got a XYZ", TOPLINE! As in, Dynamis/Limbus/Assault/Crafted/Quested/Some AH pieces.

If Gungnir (or all of the Relics, honestly) has to even *compete* against anything at all, then clearly something is wrong with the Relics. If a Samurai would rather use Soboro Sukehiro to power his Sidewinders instead of slice-and-dicing everything with Ame-no-Murakumo, something's wrong. If a Monk would rather spend a couple hours a day unlocking his fresh Destroyers instead of working up to Spharai, then something's wrong. If this whole thread/topic about a multi-hit Polearm surfacing brings up the point that there's no room bewteen Mezraq and Gungnir to put anything else in there, something is wrong! And it is clearly with how SE designed the Relics.

SE said they wanted to keep Relics rare. Well, the are doing a fine job of doing it by having an abysmally low drop rate (which i have no problem with, honestly), and making them barely worth going after in the first place. The argument in favor of the Relics fall on deaf ears when many who actually have them comment on how they're not that much better. :worry:


One last note: if anyone feels that I'm attacking them for what they said, I'm not. Honestly. But I also cannot sit by when people keep trying to defend something that, while looks good on paper, actually does not perform as advertised by the very people that have the items. I'm arguing that SE *should* significantly improve the Relics, based on thier cost in time, effort, gil, and social networking to obtain them. SE already has the means by which to keep them rare, there's no doubt about that, but in the end, why?

If you want to keep the challenge of "Not having mobs die in one shot", then by all means, you can do that. However, what of the person that actually went after and got thier Relic? Do they not deserve to be rewarded with such unprecidented melee prowess that they damn near achieve the "One Hit Wonders" status that it would afford? Yes, certainly, they put forth the effort, they deserve insane melee power. Do they get it? No. Not at all. They just spend millions in gil to find out they already had it 1-2 weapons ago.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I feel *strongly* about this subject, and I will not support the Relics as a *significant* improvement over a good endgame setup until SE actually fixes them.

(BTW, I was talking about Accuracy cap for *both* examples, not just one. Both setups hit Acc cap easily, thus nullifying G's +20.)

[eticket109]

I haven't seen one person yet complain about Excalibur. lol Though I guess the HP>Damage effect could be a bit limited if they were a taru.

[Sevv]

lilithangel thanks for the wall of text you said alot of great things that i didnt have the energy to say but im starting up my gungir with in the month, ill just pray they upgrade its stats once im there =P

[Karinya]

If someone expects their relic to do triple damage on every hit (rather than "only" 10% in addition to all their other benefits), they expect what should never exist in this game or any other. Nobody can "deserve" that kind of game breaking for any effort, let alone for accumulating a bunch of tradeable, sellable items. (I also think that nobody can possibly deserve ridill or kclub at their current power level, but the existence of some overpowered items should not be used as justification for the creation of others.) Nobody deserves to be better than two people, unless the two people are actively *bad* (not just "only" fairly well equipped). Probably not even one and a half people.

I've seen people with Aegis and it's not game breaking. They die less, certainly, but they still can die. And extremely powerful tanking or support can't change the nature of an encounter the way extremely powerful damage can (hi2u 5 minute Kirin) because you can't tank a mob to death. Most HNMs have so much AOE and/or squirrely hate behavior that an immortal tank (even if you had one, which you don't) wouldn't have *that* much effect on the encounter - you probably have at least 2-3 reserve tanks outside the alliance anyway, except in Dynamis and Limbus. The people, the strategy and the execution of that strategy will still dominate the effect of gear, including Aegis.

The reason people think Aegis is a bigger deal is that one tank with Aegis can be as much as 50% of your tanks actively fighting at any given time; to match that in DD you would need 50% of your DDs to have completed relics, and nobody is even near that point that I know of. The effect of better gear on one DD out of a crowd of DD just isn't going to be as great for the LS's overall performance, regardless of how big an effect it is on that DD's personal damage.

I would have preferred for every final relic upgrade to require Dynamis Lord's skull as a component instead of the currency-based restriction we have (although it would lead to even more competition over Xarc, at least it would be the right kind of difficult). But regardless of exactly how relics are acquired, their power level is about right - strong, certainly stronger than anything else, but not too strong. If you don't think it's worth the effort, do something else.


P.S. Sev: If gungnir is the only challenge left, does that mean you already have love halberd, torque and mars's ring? Impressive. But surely you must know that only a very small percentage even of 75s are at that point (and that you already very substantially outperform the ones that aren't).

[eticket109]

That would be kind or cool actually Kar. I can see it now...

You find a Dynamis Lord skull on the Dynamis Lord
Bob lots 337 on the Dynamis Lord skull
Jim lots 246 on the Dynamis Lord skull
<Bob> Whoohoo! Aegis {Found it!}
<Steve> Congratulations! Everyone pass!
Jim begins casting Warp II on Bob
Jim casts Warp II on Bob
Bob disappears!
Jim obtains a Dynamis Lord skull
<Jim> Yes! Claustrum {Yes please.}

[Sevv]

P.S. Sev: If gungnir is the only challenge left, does that mean you already have love halberd, torque and mars's ring? Impressive. But surely you must know that only a very small percentage even of 75s are at that point (and that you already very substantially outperform the ones that aren't).

Actaully No i dont have a love halberd or torque the reason there isnt one LS here that does sea to my knowledge that doesnt bot. I have been in a LS that bots and im over it. I will never see Full Heca on my DRG and you know what im ok with that. As well as gear for my war (ridill). But out of respect let me rephrase Gungir is the last challenge i have w/o selling my gaming morals for gear.

[Taskmage]

Going strictly by the numbers, even if we assume that the difference in damage rating between the Mezraq and Gungnir is negligable, 3x damage on 10% of the hits means that on normal swings a Gungnir-using drg will do 20% more damage than an otherwise equally equipped and skilled drg using Mezraq. I'm given to understand that effect can not proc on WS, so it's actually a little less, but still far from insignificant imo.

That said, I agree with Lilith that this is not a reasonable cost-reward ratio at all. Someone who invests a nine digit gil sum and a year or more of effort into a single item should get a huge reward. Should it be 200x better than the weapon that's 1/200th the price? No, clearly that's unreasonable as well, but is say double damage really so much to ask? What would that really break?

I know you're very vocal about not giving the players too much power and thus making the game too easy, which is a position I understand and respect, but how much harm would we really be talking about if all relic owners suddenly doubled in damage output? In endgame alliance-type situations we're talking about a very small increase in overall damage. I'm in one of the older NA dynamis linkshells in Lakshmi and I think we have two relic weapons among us. So if 16 DDs show up to an event and two of them are relic owners then we'd effectively be running with 18. Gamebreaking? I don't really think so. Enough of a difference to notice? Maybe, and I think that's as it should be. In HNM we're talking about basically the same type of difference, though I confess total ignorance as to the prevalence of melee in HNM. BCNMs and all the CoP missions that are commonly referenced for difficulty are all level capped so they'd be entirely unaffected. I can only think of a couple paying KSNMs that even have a melee-friendly strategy, so if that changes from the power increase great.

Concerning merit parties, we're talking about perhaps one merit party per server at any given time that's killing 20% faster than they would be without a relic weapon, a variance not uncommonly seen between parties of differing skill. Really, even that number is inflated, since nearly half the relic weapons consist of Mandau, Excalibur, and Kikoku, weapons for jobs not generally thought of as prime DD. According to ffxiah there are only 408 relic weapons in existence, or about a dozen per server. We would have to generously assume that each of those people plays for 30 hours a week and spends half their time meriting to even reach my estimate of one relic weapon in an active merit party at any given time.

In something like assault, which can be uncapped and contains challenges that are already very well balanced you might see a significant drop in difficulty, but again we're talking about a very miniscule amount of the player population that would even experience this, and since progress in assault is already limited by the number of tags you get we still wouldn't see these players taking great strides ahead of normal players.

In solo, obviously, is where you'd see the biggest difference, but even at that damage output isn't really the limiting factor in the solo capabilities of most classes. I think at worst you'd see another Avesta-like character emerge that both has the unreasonably good equipment and knows how to use it to full effect. Perhaps that job would get more attention or be thought of as overpowered, but others would point out just as quickly that "nobody" has that kind of equipment and there wouldn't be an overall negative effect on the game.

Of course I would never actually expect something like doubling the damage of a class of weapons, but I think that based on the sheer rarity and difficulty of these weapons to obtain, asking for them to be hands-down superior to other weapons of their type by a significant factor isn't as unreasonable as you make it out to be.

[Skoal]

I haven't seen one person yet complain about Excalibur. lol Though I guess the HP>Damage effect could be a bit limited if they were a taru.

Funny you mentioned the taru. I just saw one today when I was at home for lunch that had an excalibur.

[Sevv]

/clap Taskmage

[Lmnop]

I think I'm somewhere inbetween on this debate. The more I read from Karinya, the more I realize she's right. But all the same...

I also think that nobody can possibly deserve ridill or kclub at their current power level, but the existence of some overpowered items should not be used as justification for the creation of others.

Coulda fooled me. Soboro, all the Jailer weapons, the Mercurial weapons - they all came out around the same time. And if I had to guess, it was an attempt to make every job feel as special as Ridill Warriors. Well, you're still right. They shouldn't be, but it often happens.

Nobody deserves to be better than two people, unless the two people are actively *bad* (not just "only" fairly well equipped). Probably not even one and a half people.

Jobs already do a good enough of discriminating like this. Let's say you're killing Ash Dragon, and you can only bring 4 people. For the sake of argument, all 4 of you have Maat's Caps. Will any of those 4 people bring DD jobs? Or will they bring Ninja? Would one bring his DRG even if he had Gungnir?

Ever notice that the Relics aren't balanced? All the 2 handers seem to do double damage while the one handers do 2.5-3x damage. Doesn't this seem strange, logistically? Relic Katana (Kikoku or something? Someone said it earlier and I'm not gonna scroll up to find it) will likely swing every 2.5 seconds or so. And when that time comes, you have a 10% chance of triple damage, in addition to your already sick ninja DoT. Let's say you're a Drk toting Scourge. Since you have a Relic, you better have a good Haste set, so your swings are every ~5 seconds, instead of the normal 7ish. So every 5 seconds, you have a chance to deal Double damage. Does this make sense yet? Or does my logic fail?

Honestly. All I really want from Relics is for them to be balanced with each other. Claustrum can't replace HQ staves, what?!?!?!? Great Katana does attack down and it's WS gives Store TP+7 (yay? the GK that Absolute Virtue drops gives Store TP+8 all the time). Meanwhile, Bravura gives evasion down on normal hits, defense down on weapon skill, with additional effect: reduces Damage Taken. Talk about a loaded weapon. Too bad it can't compete with Ridill or even +20 mp/minute (that'd be the Relic Horn, of course).

Every Relic should've required a decent chunk of Currency, as well as a collection of rare/ex items from hard bosses in all of the original dynamis'. And perhaps, a bunch of out-of-Dynamis things (think Hakutaku).

Honestly, I think that if people embraced the extra Skillchain potential of Relic Weapon skills, we wouldn't have nearly as many of these threads. The funny thing about 5 minute Kirin is that I feel that it's closer to how the game was supposed to be played. I think they did it over-the-top with melee and outside cures, but would it be so bad to have a -gasp- mix of melee and magery on big things?

[eticket109]

Funny you mentioned the taru. I just saw one today when I was at home for lunch that had an excalibur.

There's a taru pld that ran with my dynamis shell a couple of times. He has Excalibur and Aegis.

[Malacite]

logistically?

You mean logically ^^;


And I'm going with Taskmage on this one, he hit it right on the nail. Relics are probably the worst example of Effort vs Reward I have ever seen and SE really should be ashamed of themselves.

[eticket109]

The one thing people seem to be forgetting is that relics are optional. Sure they take a ton of work. No one has to get them done if they don't think its worth it. If they do think its worth it, more power to them.

[Sevv]

There's a taru pld that ran with my dynamis shell a couple of times. He has Excalibur and Aegis.

poor guys has way too much time on his hands lol

[eticket109]

poor guys has way too much time on his hands lol

way too much money too. he was the first 100+ Goldsmither on Valefor so he made some heavy gil for a while. he's the first name on the AH list buying an Aristocrat's Coat... for 100 mil.

[Sevv]

way too much money too. he was the first 100+ Goldsmither on Valefor so he made some heavy gil for a while. he's the first name on the AH list buying an Aristocrat's Coat... for 100 mil.


so lets get a taru for a fall guy jack him up take his gil and leave the taru to get banned >.>

[Lmnop]

You mean logically ^^;

If it matters that much to you, yes I did.

Of course...

Logistics:the planning, implementation, and coordination of the details of a business or other operation.

The planning of the details of their Relic weapons fails. "We'll make Mercy Stroke STR based and Geirskogul AGI based." Their implementation was weak "We'll make it cost billions of RMT-able gil." And of course, their Coordination sucked: "We can't get the animation team to create new WS animations for the 7 different Race combinations * the number of Relic WSs... I guess we'll just take already-existing animations and add a bunch of fireworks."

So there, logistically, S-E did a pretty crap-tastic job.

Oh, and how 'bout them WS animations that look multi-hit but aren't?

[Sevv]

Oh, and how 'bout them WS animations that look multi-hit but aren't?

But thats what makes them so cool... relic ws should be mod strx100 and be 5 hit ws onry! lol jking >.>

[Malacite]

The one thing people seem to be forgetting is that relics are optional.

So is playing this game, that doesn't make it right.


EDIT: But thats what makes them so cool... relic ws should be mod strx100 and be 5 hit ws onry! lol jking >.>


Interestingly enough, the last 3 "normal" Tachi WS are all 75% STR while Kaiten is only 60. >.> Still pretty damn high though when it has a TP mod of 3x DMG at any TP level.

[Karinya]

I think I'm somewhere inbetween on this debate. The more I read from Karinya, the more I realize she's right. But all the same...
Coulda fooled me. Soboro, all the Jailer weapons, the Mercurial weapons - they all came out around the same time. And if I had to guess, it was an attempt to make every job feel as special as Ridill Warriors. Well, you're still right. They shouldn't be, but it often happens.
Soboro has absolutely terrible DMG. So do most of the mercurial weapons. The only one in common use outside of skillups is the kris, which is only offhanded for TP because its DMG is low. Jailer weapons have low DMG too (although not quite AS low) and take up the ammo slot (no bomb core for you).

Justice Sword and Ridill are both 1-handed swords with the exact same delay. Justice Sword takes up an extra equipment slot, requires ammo that gets used up whenever it procs, and swings a maximum of 2 times compared to Ridill's 3. To make up for this, it has 34 damage while Ridill only has... 40. Oh wait. Maybe the new weapons aren't quite as strong as the old ones after all. (Justice also has +7 STR, but I doubt very much if it's enough to close the gap between the two.)

I admit that Kclub also has low DMG, but in that case it's not used for its damage but as a source of TP and for Souleater. For those things only the number of hits counts. No other weapon has ever had the same number of hits as Kclub, including the new ones. In fact I can't think of any other weapon that can even hit *half* as many times on one swing.

I think the stats on the new multihits clearly prove two things:
1) SE knows the old multihits are too powerful. Why else make the new ones weaker, even ones that come from far more dangerous and difficult fights?
2) They nevertheless aren't doing anything about it. If they intended to fix (i.e. nerf) the old weapons they would have fixed them by now.
Ever notice that the Relics aren't balanced? All the 2 handers seem to do double damage while the one handers do 2.5-3x damage. Doesn't this seem strange, logistically? Relic Katana (Kikoku or something? Someone said it earlier and I'm not gonna scroll up to find it) will likely swing every 2.5 seconds or so. And when that time comes, you have a 10% chance of triple damage, in addition to your already sick ninja DoT. Let's say you're a Drk toting Scourge. Since you have a Relic, you better have a good Haste set, so your swings are every ~5 seconds, instead of the normal 7ish. So every 5 seconds, you have a chance to deal Double damage. Does this make sense yet? Or does my logic fail?
Well, doubling the damage of a 103 DMG 2hander is a lot more damage than tripling the damage of a 42 DMG 1hander. In fact the triple damage kikoku proc will barely outdamage a normal swing of Apoc (possibly not even that, depending on how much attack each of them has) and probably fall short of an Apoc crit (let alone proc).

And aren't you assuming that the relic katana user is not dual-wielding? It may be worthwhile to do that given how powerful the relic is, but they give up a lot of DW-haste (some of it a job trait that they can't replace with other equipment) to do that. If they *are* dual wielding the relic with anything else, their overall swing time won't be that different from the 2her, assuming Haste and haste gear for both.
Honestly. All I really want from Relics is for them to be balanced with each other. Claustrum can't replace HQ staves, what?!?!?!? Great Katana does attack down and it's WS gives Store TP+7 (yay? the GK that Absolute Virtue drops gives Store TP+8 all the time). Meanwhile, Bravura gives evasion down on normal hits, defense down on weapon skill, with additional effect: reduces Damage Taken. Talk about a loaded weapon. Too bad it can't compete with Ridill or even +20 mp/minute (that'd be the Relic Horn, of course).
Actually, it's +80 mp, per mp user in the party, per minute (with double ballad). There comes a point where more MP doesn't really help, though.

I don't know about bravura vs. an axe/ridill setup - I've never seen someone with bravura. Anyway, didn't we just agree that ridill is too strong? Compare it to axe/axe or axe/joyeuse (let alone to any other GA) and it comes out much stronger.

Obviously, AV's GK didn't exist when relics were added, but I think you're ignoring other differences between them: higher dmg, lower delay, acc+20, atk down proc, the hidden damage multiplying effect and Kaiten. And that's compared to a drop from (currently) the hardest HNM in the game.
Every Relic should've required a decent chunk of Currency, as well as a collection of rare/ex items from hard bosses in all of the original dynamis'. And perhaps, a bunch of out-of-Dynamis things (think Hakutaku).
Actually, relic upgrading *does* require a bunch of out-of-Dynamis things (crafted items and materials, mostly) and at least two rare/ex Dynamis NM drops. They're just totally insignificant compared to the currency.
Honestly, I think that if people embraced the extra Skillchain potential of Relic Weapon skills, we wouldn't have nearly as many of these threads. The funny thing about 5 minute Kirin is that I feel that it's closer to how the game was supposed to be played. I think they did it over-the-top with melee and outside cures, but would it be so bad to have a -gasp- mix of melee and magery on big things?
Of course not - and I've been in LSes that did just that. Not everyone kills kirin exclusively with Tornado II, Chi Blast and Nether Blast. A few SCs can help a lot on resists, too, if you're coordinated enough.

In fact, I'd say that if SE introduced some way to allow two alliances to cooperate on Kirin or other big HNMs, everyone would start meleeing him more. There's really no reason not to, aside from the artificial limit of 18 people that can attack him at any one time.

But doing *that much* damage that fast changes the nature of the encounter completely. The fast kirin people (allegedly) kill him so fast that he doesn't even summon all his minions, which is a large part of the challenge of the fight (for groups that it still IS challenging for, as opposed to merely tedious). This isn't so bad for kirin, because there's lots of people for whom he isn't really that challenging anyway. No limit on time or number of people will tend to do that.

But do you want to see the same thing happen to AV, Proto-Omega/Ultima, Bahamut, DL? I don't. If someone can take Proto-Ultima from 20% to dead in less time than the countdown of Citadel Buster, or finish off DL before resummoned Ying and Yang even reach them, they'd have avoided one of the major challenges in the encounter, just by doing damage faster.

[Lmnop]

DISCLAIMER: I'm not summarizing you out of disrespect. Simply a desire to keep the size of my post down.

Multi-hit weapon stuff

Soboro: A+ rank weapon capable of giving the user over 50% tp every 7.5 seconds. I think the average per/round TP would probably end up around 34%. Ok, it's weak. But it's also A+ ranked (Ridill cannot touch this), and Samurai have decent Archery, with lots of good +Archery gear. Also, Sam/war can do insane DoT in even the mid 60s with this thing. It's damage is apparently not weak enough. I think my friend was doing 2-400 Yuki's on things I was Rampaging for 4-700 on. And obviously, he WSed a lot.

Jailer weapons: Can proc double and triple attacks. This is what makes a Fortitude Axe capable of comparing - it ends up similar to dual wield in that you hit twice and each of those swings can 2A. It gets 13-14% tp/swing, but this is offset with weak weapon skills and the fact that you're not guarenteed to multi-attack, unlike Dual Wield where you know your offhand will always take a swing. Basically, they're not as weak as they seem.

Mercurial Weapons: Along with Bahamut's Zaghnal, pretty weak - no excuses.

Those points said, I agree that when they implemented them, they were significantly and purposely weaker than Ridill and KC. I was going to comment on this last post, but got lazy. I think

I think the Jailer weapons are superb, because they're not incredibly potent, and they require a decent sacrifice. Though I'd still rather we didn't have multi-hitters so that DRKs could get a better 2hour.

Well, doubling the damage of a 103 DMG 2hander is a lot more damage than tripling the damage of a 42 DMG 1hander. In fact the triple damage kikoku proc will barely outdamage a normal swing of Apoc (possibly not even that, depending on how much attack each of them has) and probably fall short of an Apoc crit (let alone proc).

Still swings more. Spharai is a pinnacle example. It's insane that they basically get to dual wield relics. With a nice haste build, they could be slamming non-stop. The only reason they're the lolSpharai is because Destroyers are so good. It doesn't mean their relic is weak.

And aren't you assuming that the relic katana user is not dual-wielding? It may be worthwhile to do that given how powerful the relic is, but they give up a lot of DW-haste (some of it a job trait that they can't replace with other equipment) to do that. If they *are* dual wielding the relic with anything else, their overall swing time won't be that different from the 2her, assuming Haste and haste gear for both.

Correct, I thought about this. However, even Dual Wielding Relic with some other Relic would give you a chance to swing more frequently than a DRK. Because you're a NIN and you swing all the time, you get that.

Most of the one handers, I suppose, are quite balanced in that it's the jobs that need it. I don't think a BST actually -wants- double-triple damage though...

Actually, it's +80 mp, per mp user in the party, per minute (with double ballad).

D'oh! I came back to this thread with the intention of changing that number, but I see you beat me to it. As you likely guessed, I was thinking of the number that Auto-refresh gives you.

Bravura

I've seen nothing on it since the SAM update. Extra damage on the 2x damage 10% of the time, but Ridill does extra damage and tp 50-66% of the time. Most of the Bravura-threads were at the height of dual axe-dom though. So even the people with Bravuras seemed to be skewed towards dual wield. It really does have some of the best added effects. But statistically, it wouldn't give -the user- as high of damage as Ridill.

[Karinya]

In order to avoid exponentially increasing post sizes, I have also responded to only parts of your post.

I think the Jailer weapons are superb, because they're not incredibly potent, and they require a decent sacrifice. Though I'd still rather we didn't have multi-hitters so that DRKs could get a better 2hour.
I agree on both points. But I was just pointing out that they are, intentionally, weaker than the 2 really powerful old multihitters - even though they come from harder fights and you would normally expect them to be stronger than something that drops off a (comparative) wimp like LoO or Faf (let alone a BCNM60, sheesh).
(re: Bravura)
I've seen nothing on it since the SAM update. Extra damage on the 2x damage 10% of the time, but Ridill does extra damage and tp 50-66% of the time. Most of the Bravura-threads were at the height of dual axe-dom though. So even the people with Bravuras seemed to be skewed towards dual wield. It really does have some of the best added effects. But statistically, it wouldn't give -the user- as high of damage as Ridill.
I dunno. A lot depends on how they are otherwise equipped. You'd have to be insane to equip a WAR/SAM using an A+ weapon with Hasso and +20 acc on the weapon the same as a WAR/NIN using A- and B weapons with no acc traits or JAs besides aggressor and no acc on your weapons.

The WAR/SAM has 37 more acc than the WAR/NIN's *main* hand, before counting gear other than weapons. 56 acc more than the ridill hand. If sea torques are in use, the WAR/SAM gets +7 to his only weapon and the WAR/NIN has to choose one weapon to get +7 skill to (outside of WS, when probably both will be swapping in gorgets). On top of that the WAR/SAM can have full merits to the skill of the only weapon he's using, while the WAR/NIN has to split. No matter what split he chooses he'll end up even further behind on at least one hand. Base attack gaps are smaller, but still there (especially with the merits and torques included). And the /SAM also has more STR, both because of SAM's naturally high STR and because of Hasso.

That means the WAR/SAM can wear a lot more atk and haste gear while the WAR/NIN has to wear a ton of acc, or worse (from an atk standpoint), eat sushi. Ridill's proc can't stack with the DA trait, merits, and +DA gear; Bravura's can. So the WAR/NIN is going to have a hard time competing in DoT, even if he can stay ahead in TP when the WAR/SAM isn't meditating. (Which he probably can, but only by sacrificing a significant amount of his already poorer ATK). And the WAR/SAM's superior atk and STR is going to be reflected in his WS damage too.

I'm of course neglecting the eva down proc and the armor break effect of Metatron Torment because both WARs benefit from them if they're in a party together - but this isn't entirely fair, because if they're alternative choices for the one slot left in your party then those effects make a big difference in which one you should choose.


A lot of the old analyses are going to be obsolete - in addition to the introduction of Hasso (and +10 acc, +5 str, +10% haste that takes up no equipment slots is pretty huge in its own right), skill merits and sea torques don't fully benefit a mixed DW setup; you can't fully skill-merit two weapon types (even with no other combat skill merits) and no sea torque gives skill to two one-handed weapons at once.

[Lmnop]

-you can always dual wield swords

-no "hardcore" Ridill war is gonna have less than 6 merits in sword

-I can only hope someone with Bravura reads your post and realizes just how much of a shot it's worth to war/sam an exp party with it.

-Drg/Sam with big G. They would lower the mob's defense and that'd be grand. They'd deal great damage, and that'd be grand. They may as well use Penta Thrust or Wheeling Thrust or even Skewer than use Geirskogul. Who cares about additional SC potential in this day and age, anyway? Who cares about a WS that'll just make you errr shocky.

Maybe I'm not realizing that these shock spikes are super? Are they stunning the mob every time it hits the DRG? And I guess they were designed so that a THF could trick onto a DRG and he'd be able to tank better because he keeps stunning the mob? And of course, it's nifty for solo.

But honestly, these weapons were made when their functions for these things were poor. The Shock Spikes is probably be based off of your enhancing magic skill that you don't have. It'll stun maybe 1 in 10? I'd like to see some info on this.

Still, could've been something like "additional effect: Restore Wyvern HP."

[Sevv]

.
Still, could've been something like "additional effect: Restore Wyvern HP."

but my wyvern barely takes damage, ill take the spikes =P

[Empedocles]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/TimLochore/Derailed.jpg

I think the general consensus(sp?) Skoal, is that Dragoon would most likely not benefit all that much from a Multi-Hit Polearm. :thumbsup:

[LadyKiKi]

Benefit or not, I WANT A MULTI-HIT POLEARM AT LEAST!! :cry:

It's a toy. Most multi-hit weapons are toys. Minus the Sea-Type weapons, only Axe, Great Axe and Polearm lacks a multi-hit weapon.

PS. Does hand-to-hand need one? :eek:

[Sevv]

Benefit or not, I WANT A MULTI-HIT POLEARM AT LEAST!! :cry:
It's a toy. Most multi-hit weapons are toys. Minus the Sea-Type weapons, only Axe, Great Axe and Polearm lacks a multi-hit weapon.
PS. Does hand-to-hand need one? :eek:

who said we needed it to benefit the job class? ill take the toy to mess around with (^.^)b. And Monks already do it with both hands so no.

[Skoal]

Benefit or not, I WANT A MULTI-HIT POLEARM AT LEAST!! :cry:

It's a toy. Most multi-hit weapons are toys. Minus the Sea-Type weapons, only Axe, Great Axe and Polearm lacks a multi-hit weapon.

PS. Does hand-to-hand need one? :eek:

Amood is the GA one.

[LadyKiKi]

Amood is the GA one.

Oh that, I forgot. I don't really count that one tho, need one that works full time with no need on dependencies on other factors (moon, stones, HP% etc) :wasted:

I might post a suggestion to SE in that forum.

"I want a multi-hit polearm. Period." :biggrin:

[Sevv]

lets raid the gm's building we might be able to steal the tp nerf back.

[Skoal]

LOL I didn't see Empedocles's derailment post until now.

[Lmnop]

Oh that, I forgot. I don't really count that one tho, need one that works full time with no need on dependencies on other factors (moon, stones, HP% etc) :wasted:
I might post a suggestion to SE in that forum.
"I want a multi-hit polearm. Period." :biggrin:

needs to be in a form of a question:

"I want a multi-hit polearm. Die?"

And yes, Amood is such incredible shit. It works on like 10% of the moon phase and that's it. I was hoping that since the latent also lowers damage by a lot, that it'd be a constantly multi-attacking weapon but that all the added swings would be for crap-tastic damage. That would've been great.

[Sevv]

LOL I didn't see Empedocles's derailment post until now.

but then we got back on topic =/