Thoughts and Ideas On a High-chain Paladin Based High-Level Party

[Sabaron]

The TP Burn party has become quite prevalent, but it has semi-limited usability. I was wondering about creating a Paladin Tank centered party configuration with competitive performance. I'll start with the TP Burn.

Core Group
NIN/WAR Tank
RDM/WHM Main Heal
BRD/WHM Support/Puller

Satellite Group
3 Non-MP-based DDs

From this we'll do comparisons:

1. PLD/WAR has a lower damage output than NIN/WAR, therefore, we need to make up for that loss somewhere else. COR as an alternative to the BRD can provide Refresh without expending MP, so we can substitute COR for BRD and squeeze some extra damage out over the abysmally deficient BRD DD.

2. Magic-based DD's traditionally have a better burst damage output provided adequate refresh, therefore, we adjust the satellite group to contain magic-based DDs: BLM, DRK, BLU.

3. This produces the following setup:

Core Group
PLD/WAR Tank
RDM/WHM Main Heal/Front-line Refresh
COR/RNG Support/DD

Satellite Group
3x Magical DDs: BLU, BLM, DRK
Suggested: No more than 1 DRK because the PLD will not have the ability to Cover multiple Souleaters.


I realize that most RDMs are not very happy about 5x Refresh with multiple Hastes, but it's the nature of the beast and you already have double Refresh (plus Sanction if available).

Now. For target mobs, we have to target mobs that are weak to a damage base that is synergistic with the damage type of the party. BLU is fairly versatile and can arrange his damage to the preferred ecology to produce good results. BLM requires enemies that have at least one (or preferably more than one) elemental weakness. DRK requires monsters that are of lower evasion jobs (correct me if I'm wrong) so that he can take advantage of his large, slow weapon and a greater bonus from %-based attack foods in lieu of Accuracy food.

Where shall we find such creatures?

What feelings do you have regarding this?

Have you tried this setup?

Will Underdog be able to thwart the evil Simon Bar Sinister and save sweet Polly Purebred?

[Jei]

The problem is, you can -not- keep up 5xhaste 5xrefresh on top of *healing* a PLD/WAR.

PLD/NIN with proper gear filling the DD rolo with proper DD gear is so much easier on the caster's MP pool. PLD/War tank means the party is not burning. That's a big no if you want chains and exp/merit.

[Desideratum]

Well, to be fair, that's really only 5 refreshes and 2-3 hastes (any BLU worth their salt at burn levels can haste themselves), but I agree. That's quite the load for the RDM to handle on top of main healing the PLD/WAR, which is nearly a full time job in and of itself (which is why I prefer to have a WHM around when a PLD is involved).

[Celeal]

I agree with Jet. Actually I am thinking about the the other direction: Party setup for minimal MP usage; avoid using MP unless it is needed.

How about a core group like the following:

Core:
PLD/WAR - tank
WHM/BRD - main healer, Ballad the RDM + PLD + self all time.
Frontline RDM/??? - Refresh + backup heal + crowd control + melee support

Satellite Group
3x melee (including range attack) - strictly no MP user in this group, one player in this group has to take over pulling, and either the RDM or one player in this group sleep the add.

Edit:
The reason I include WHM/BRD in this because WHM has the best curing ratio (least MP use with max HP return). With only 3 ppl to Refresh and Ballad on top of of that, plus Sanction-Refresh and PLD's auto-Refresh, I think no one need to /heal during the battle or between pulls.

Even PLD tank melee or RDM melee damage output is not too great, but if we add the damage output of both PLD + RDM melee togather, it may be close to a single DD's damage.

P.S.
In my last PLD party (traditional party setup: PLD, DRK, THF, BLM, RDM, WHM), I can hit 300+ dmg Swift Blade on VT Hobgoblin in Bibkki Bay consistantly with attack food and full Tanking gear. It is true that my accuacy is not good, but since Swift Blade's accuacy is affected by TP, it is not bad using at 130~150 TP. In that party I was saving TP for Shark Bite (THF) -> Cross Reaper (DRK) -> Swift Blade (PLD), which is Distortion -> Darkness.

[Taskmage]

It's actually 5 refresh plus 2 haste, since only the pld, blu and drk can use it and the blu can provide their own. Still very strenuous, taking up 1100 mp every 10 minutes. Generously assuming that your convert gives you back 1100 mp, that still leaves you healing and sleeping links purely off of refresh.

Refresh is the only reliable refresh effect that will be on you. Sanction refresh is only active for 1mp/tick if you mp is at 85% or lower, and Evoker's Roll only gives 1mp/tick unless you hit 5, 8, 10 or 11. I'm not really good at probability math, so I'll just estimate the roll giving 2mp/tick on average. That gives you 117 mp per minute to use for healing, sleeping links or multiple pulls, bar-s etc. That's pretty meager, and that's on a roll of 8 or 10. 6, 7 or 9 would leave you with only 97, or 77 on a bust. There's just not enough mp there, and if your corsair or their luck are bad, you can't even toss the pld a Cure IV for a whole minute.

[Jugil]

I have done some PLD/WAR, BRD/WHM (me), RDM +3 DD parties. Most of the time, the PLD would situate himself in position for Ballad so that he and the RDM had 6MP/tick on a regular basis. With Chivalry and Convert, and some backup healing, there was little need to break (unless we wanted to). Plus, if the PLD wanted to heal MP, the WAR and MNK were capable of dual tanking for one mob without a problem.

Was the EXP as fast as 4WAR/NIN, BRD/WHM, RDM? No. Was it still good EXP with reasonably high chains? Yes.

The problem is, is it required a little bit of teamwork; something high level burn parties don't like doing these days :P.

[Sabaron]

Well, the idea was to try to find a setup that utilizes the less-desirable magical DDs as well as the PLD tank (to try to push a higher invite rate for them). Utilizing the same-old-same-old non-magical DD's isn't really a very good strategy as you've only replaced the NIN in this case (since the COR can't have BRD's slot because his refresh sucks). Including the WHM/BRD is a nice idea though to take pressure off RDM's Haste cycle.

What about this:

Core Group
PLD/WAR Tank
RDM/WHM
RDM/??? Geared Melee DD

Satellite Group
3x Magical DDs: BLU, BLM, DRK

Now, we've got the haste/refresh cycle split between two mages instead of one, but we've lowered our total refresh amount--converting one RDM into a fighter (who would be eating accuracy food [Sole Sushi] and need to have his weapon-of-choice skilled properly). Perhaps COR/RNG could get slot as a DD. Ignore/disregard the fact that TP-Burns use /NIN. I'm not trying to make a magical TP-Burn.

[Karinya]

Well, to be fair, that's really only 5 refreshes and 2-3 hastes (any BLU worth their salt at burn levels can haste themselves), but I agree. That's quite the load for the RDM to handle on top of main healing the PLD/WAR, which is nearly a full time job in and of itself (which is why I prefer to have a WHM around when a PLD is involved).

That's where the BLU comes in, IMO. You'd really need a BLU that isn't just a damage monkey. The BLU is getting somewhere around 7/tick between Auto-Refresh trait, RDM's refresh, Evoker's Roll and Sanction (more with vermy). Since the DDs are magical placing Evoker's isn't a problem - you want it to hit everyone. If he can't put some of that into support healing, boot him and get another.

Also, I'd suggest SMN instead of BLM. Physical BPs do a lot to the kind of weak mobs you'd be fighting, plus they boost Evoker's for everyone. And they can help reduce the healing needed by either doing some of it themselves, or a big BP early letting the avatar take a few hits, or protective BPs, or all 3 at once. SMN is great at being offense and defense in the same job, especially after the BP reforms and when you have plenty of MP suppliers.

The PLD may be getting as much as 8/tick with Parade Gorget and Hercules Ring, although they will sometimes be in between the two latents. Higher on particularly good rolls of Evoker's. Plus a high chain party means weaker mobs and thus, less damage taken. I don't think they're going to need *that* much outside healing anyway.

[Celeal]

If the OP's objective is "utilizes the less-desirable magical DDs as well as the PLD tank," well, how about the following setup:

PLD/WAR, BRD/WHM, 4x BLU/???

or

PLD/WAR, SMN/WHM, COR/RNG, 3x BLU/???

If there are 5 or 6 MP users in a party, I think Ballad or Evoker's Roll is less tedious than having one RDM Refresh 5 or 6 members. The multiple BLU in above setup have the flexibility to divide the workload depends on situation.

[IfritnoItazura]

A PLD centered party? umm... How about:

PLD/WHM
RDM/WHM (or RDM/DRK, or RDM/PLD)
DD/NIN x4

:biggrin:

PLD can pull, of course; stoneskin and blink up, then poke monsters with Flash or Dia or something. XD

(Disclaimer: Don't kill me, I'm a PLD57 and RDM67--I'm one of you, really!)

[Sabaron]

I really like the SMN in there as main heal instead of the RDM. Hastega takes care of the hasting, and with the efficiency boost for the COR, you get more bang for your buck. I don't like the idea of trying to find 3xBLU though. It's sometimes hard to find them since their high-level spells are harder to obtain and it cuts DRK out of the loop. I'm not overly concerned with the "plight" of BLM since they've already got manaburn.

I agree that the RDM is probably not the best way to go for a main-heal refresher here since, after reviewing the above, RDM cannot provide the necessary output to maintain everything on top of curing. SMN+COR combination seems excellent with a BLU sharing curative responsibility with the SMN and the SMN using DD pacts. Most SMN's (even though some say they "don't mind") didn't get into the job to be 3rd rate healers (I suppose 4th rate now since WHM, RDM, and BLU are all better at it than a SMN/WHM). SMN has Spring Water "Erasega" which is quite useful considering WHM's Divine Seal can only be used every 10 minutes, and SMN can do it once a minute or less depending on gear.

[Achaicus]

Here's a idea try a party with 1 BRD + 5 x PLD/ where you mainly pull undead.

Of course, if there are fewer PLDs available, simply substitute in any other job that can meelee & uses MP (SMN loosely included as a job that ~could~ meelee, but with their avatars).

I have not tried any of these, but - as a Bard - I have made some very unusual parties work (and they every one of them was FUN :)

[Timian]

Here's a idea try a party with 1 BRD + 5 x PLD/ where you mainly pull undead.

Of course, if there are fewer PLDs available, simply substitute in any other job that can meelee & uses MP (SMN loosely included as a job that ~could~ meelee, but with their avatars).

I have not tried any of these, but - as a Bard - I have made some very unusual parties work (and they every one of them was FUN :)

I know what you're thinking... but "Undead Killer" just isn't that effective.
And since PLD doesn't get the bonus damage a MNK burn would against skeletons,
the burn speed wouldn't be even close.

Best way to make a PLD based party:

PLD/NIN in DD/haste gear, Flash voking at start.
3 Melee DDs of your choice (preferably /NIN too... I know it's a fad, but it works.)
BRD
Healer - preferably RDM or SMN, so he/she can actually do some damage too.

[Amele]

Interesting how whitemage main never seems to be discussed in any of these burn threads. :p

[IfritnoItazura]

Interesting how whitemage main never seems to be discussed in any of these burn threads. :p

You'd have to be Japanese to use WHM in "meripo"!

>_> <_<

:P

[Karinya]

I've seen several merit parties with WHM. Usually RDM, WHM, 4 melee/NIN. It works well in places where aoe will get through shadows pretty often, so you need some real healing backup.

It's not nearly as crazy as suggesting inviting a PLD to merit. :)

[Amele]

oh I know. usually we do brd whm 4 melee/nin (actually last night.. I had a pt that was 4 nin/war whm brd - was interesting having so many tanks)
I find myself wishing that we got garuda's hastega effect under cap so that I could reliably haste all four melee at the same time - when fighting things weak to piercing it's nice to get a ranger or two instead of melee to help ease off the haste requirements without a rdm.
it's just been something of a running joke in my ls because so many of my melee friends can't imagine how I don't have capped merits yet!

[Sabaron]

The WHM and the RDM are best used in a mutually exclusive sense. A WHM heals so efficiently and resting produces such high returns that with Sanction and SMN or PLD sub, the WHM only needs one refresher--a Bard. Red Mage can self-Refresh which is why they're useful. Most of the good setups my LS has found at high-level do not include a RDM and a WHM. They're best either/or. WHM doesn't mesh as well with COR, however, and you have to have a NIN tank. RDM can go with either tank and a COR can effectively replace the BRD in said parties. WHM + PLD is overkill most generally since a high-level PLD usually doesn't have too much trouble healing (a PLD imo is always the main healer). Additionally, a PLD always needs a targetted Refresh, so having a BRD/COR as your only Refresher creates problems since the PLD will generally be in range when they're trying to buff the front line--thus PLD + RDM > PLD + WHM.

So basically, my feeling on the WHM issue is this:

High-level WHM main Party setup:

WHM + BRD + NIN

High-level RDM main Party setup:

RDM + BRD/COR + NIN/PLD

RDM is more versatile in this respect. If you put them both in the same party with a BRD or PLD, someone's going to be at full-mp and you'll probably have a RDM Nuker which imo is generally inefficient, but I don't mind it as such what with the skill up and all (BLU and BLM are better choices for an mp-based "nuker", their spells are more efficient).

[Amele]

whm should sub blm in merit with x/nin DD. period.

autorefresh is 20 mp/min.
conserve mp is 7% gross usage saved long term.

the break even point is 286mp/min used. this is a laughably small amount of mp to use in one minute in merit (two hastes, two cure III's, two Regen III's is already 304 mp) above 286mp/min conserve mp will save more mp than autorefresh gives.


as for merit setups: whitemage is most efficient with no tank (then you can maximize regen and curaga line spells) so it's erroneous to say that whitemage works better with nin than pld. a pld setup as a DD and not as a solo tank is no more or less efficient in a whm pt (granted, not as efficient as a full DD might be, depending on player and gear)

concerning whm + cor: it can work (I've done it before) it takes a backup healer - someone the whm can dump devotion into and then rest for a minute or two. works much better 'camped' over roaming, so the whitemage doesn't have to move around (much) and can take advantage of resting opportunities. (standard whm/blm gear/food and healer's roll will give whm around 50+3/restingtick hmp) interestingly enough, one of the best backup healers for this is pld. (I prefer pld in DD gear but your mileage may vary) blm and blu (set up properly) can work too although blackmages aren't as popular in merit as melee oriented DD.

so basically: whm + brd + 4x DD, or whm + cor + DD/backup healer + 3x DD both work. you don't see many whm + pld because it's tough to trust a pickup pld to competently DD without something in their comment indicating otherwise

[Karinya]

The last time I did a merit with WHM+RDM, I was the puller (as RDM) and there was no tank, melees just subbed nin and bounced hate around. I didn't do much healing, mainly refresh, pulling, silence and dispel (it was mamool ja staging point, so both of those are pretty important). A bard would have worked in the same slot, but doesn't have silence and their dispel has a long recast, so I don't know if it would have worked any better against those mobs.

[Sabaron]

I did the RDM pull in Mamool as well with a RDM + WHM + PLD setup. It worked out fairly well... Hitting high chain, but unfortunately, most of the time the area is way overcamped and there were no good pulls. We occasionally had to eat Skoffins for which a WHM is definitely a must-have.