A new opportunity for Necromancer?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I know SE said Necromancer would be a difficult job to implement due to the whole daylight thing, yet we have zones where the undead are always present, like Xacabard of Caedarva Mire. We also have environments that don't exactly see sunlight in the sense of the overworld.

Then there's Vrtra. Summons the undead. Yeah, that's a necromancer. And there's the Lamia, which take on the illusion of a beautiful woman to seduce men and turn them into their undead servants.

Now, people have also argued that Necromancer wasn't a traditional class and, therefore, dhouldn't have a place in the FFXI world, that all characters are inherantly good. Well, Ninjas are assassins by trade and Dark Knights aren't exactly portrayed as noble, yet they can be heroic all the same.

And recently, with the release of Final Fantasy V Advance, Necromancer makes its first appearance as a playable class in the series. I've yet to delve in to the new version of this game - as I'm juggling a few other RPGs, so I'm tied up - and I'm not sure how in functions within FFV, but its an interesting addition nonetheless, there would have to be an interest amoung fans for such an addtion to be made.

Though, really, I think Cannoneer just came out of nowhere. lolCAN

Question is, how could Necromancer be added? If undead summoned during the day were weaker, I bet that could be adjusted if they were summoned within a dungeon. Its also possible they could be given arcane abilities or magic in addtion to calling the undead? Why stop at undead when they could summon weapons, bombs, ahriman, imps or Kindred?

And what about support abilities? There's all manner of status spells we've yet to see.

Reverse - turns damage into healing very temorarily on allies
Demi - Reduces enemy HP by a quarter.
Berzerk (it'd have to be renamed. Maybe "Fury?") - ATT buff causes an ally to mindlessly attack the enemy.
Imp - Turns enemy into imp (high resist). We like killing imps already.
Zombie - places enemy in Undead status, allowing Cures to cause damage.
Disable - temporarily stops physical attacks, but not magic (to be fair to Stun)
Doom - high resist rate, but occasionally kills an enemy.
Confuse - causes enemy to attack its allies, enemies or itself.
Bind, Drain, Aspir - just for the sake of another class having 'em on main

And I'm totally making this one up.

Reanimate - takes the corpse of an ally as a pet temporarily to attack an enemy.

I'm stealing this one from EQ's Enchanter.

Taunt - makes an ally provoke.

Its not totally fleshed out, I'm not a big necro fan, but there are possibilites to make it work even within daylight hours in-game. I'll concede some of my ideas could be refined as they could lead to MPK, though. But hey, if they're already dead... that's right up a necromancer's alley.

[Murphie]

I honestly think a Demi spell (if it worked as it does in previous installments, and as you listed it above) would be far too powerful.

I just don't see any reason to add a Necromancer to FFXI. I don't think it would add much of anything that we're desperately missing, beyond a job for all the emo kids to flock to (besides DRK).

[Clever Ninja]

Demi would be broken. But if anything just make it a pet class that summons various undead servants that serve different roles(one for 'tanking', one for physical damage, one enfeebler, etc). The abilities of the Necromancer's abilities themselves I can't comment on, since I basically don't want to make the Necromancer a ripoff from other games that have it >_>.

While I do agree we need more jobs, especially a tanking job, necromancer probably shouldn't be high on the list just because a mob in the game has its abilities.

[Murphie]

Necormancer would likely come out looking much like PUP, and we see how well that went.

[Auron517]

Bleh, it looks like you've put some thought into it, but I don't like the sound of Necromancer in Final Fantasy XI. It just doesn't seem...you know...Final Fantasyish.

[Kirsteena]

Tbh, I can't see them introducing any more jobs for a long time. Look how many actually play the new jobs. Compared to the older jobs, the number difference is huge. I also think they got burnt by pup, so I can't see it at this moment.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Bleh, it looks like you've put some thought into it, but I don't like the sound of Necromaster in Final Fantasy XI. It just doesn't seem...you know...Final Fantasyish.

Neither does calling Gambler "Corsair."

We got stiffed with the pirate look only because there was retarded level of demand for a pirate class. The SE claims "Gambler"was too controversial of a class name in the US... so why isn't Setzer called a Corsair? He's still labeled as a Gambler in FFVI Advance >.>

I don't mind the pirate look, I like pirates. Still, I wanted something that skewed to what Setzer looked like, but there are nods to his look in the body AF (all the ruffles). At the very least, Qultada acts like Setzer - melancholy and speaking in gambler-isms.

Still, SE wouldn't go back and add Necromancer to an older FF if there wasn't a reason to do so. Fan interest in the class had to be a factor in that addition. And just as people had some stupid obsession with wanting a pirate class, people have a stupid obsession with an "evil" or "dark" class. So in the world of FFXI, we'd have do-gooder Necros who'd just have to roleplay thier emo darkness... as if we don't get that enough from DRKs already. /wrist

And you could arguably work it into a Far Eastern context, just think about what had to be done to forge Tenzen's Blade with the breath of Phoenix - numerous lives had to be sacrificed.

As for Demi being too powerful, the spell always led to diminishing returns, each successive use knocked off less HP than the previous one. That would apply even if you had two people casting in succession. It was 1/4 of whatever the current HP was, it would never be based on the original HP. In any event, you could slap a large recast on it and place it above sub level so RDM couldn't exploit it.

[Murphie]

Because that's what we RDM do, amirite?

/abusepower

[Auron517]

Even if Gambler is called Corsair...it's still Gambler, which is apart of the franchise.

(Although, If you ask me, Corsair is a pretty nifty name).

However, I agree with Kirsteena, FFXI has enough jobs already... eightteen is more than most MMOs on the market.

They still haven't even finished fully brining up the ToA jobs up to speed have they? And by that I mean, AF+1, AFv2, AFv2+1, Relic, etc...?

[BurningPanther]

Because that's what we RDM do, amirite?
/abusepower
I prefer to call it "exploiting loopholes." /nod

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Because that's what we RDM do, amirite?

/abusepower

Gotta do something when you're not forced into main healing :P

As for too many jobs. Never can have too many. Yeah, we still have some things to work out in the current ones, but there's always going to be some class left untouched that people will want.

I don't think its a good idea to stagger out jobs for every other expansion since we'll never see new playable races (unless they make beastmen playable). Even just one new job would be fine for the next expansion. Hell, WoW didn't even do that, they just gave the Horde a Paladin Class and called it a day.

As for job population of the newer jobs. Its all BLU. Big reason I'm reconsidering that jobfor endgame purposes and just going to do it for fun. There's gonna be so much competition for BLU endgame gear.

It will be easier for my COR since we have like 30 on the entire server. Can't say I can complain about the expense of the job, as it reduces my competition.

Yeah, I gotta work against those 13 other NA CORs on Titan, I have it hard, I tell ya :P

[Murphie]

Oh, we get plenty of opportunities to do other things. That said, I doubt that a spell like Demi would be worth giving up our other functional subjobs for (except in very specific situations, I guess).

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Oh, we get plenty of opportunities to do other things. That said, I doubt that a spell like Demi would be worth giving up our other functional subjobs for (except in very specific situations, I guess).

I think I'd just like to see those missing spells get mixed in. I liked that Poroggo have that Toad spell. Even if its just a Charm with a costume, its still a homage to that status ailment.

Even if the spells had to function a little differently, they'd be nice to have. One of my favorite boss fights was Yunaleska in FFX. To win the fight, all allies actually needed to be in Zombie status. The only way to survive her Megadeath attack was to be undead. FFXI still lacks a lot of these more exotic strategies in the general game, I kinda hate how they rarely pop up in missions or endgame.

[Murphie]

Well, I guess it's not a FF game if there isn't some highly specific strategy required to beat the boss. Still, I'm not sure that something quite so...particular? would be well recieved.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Well, I guess it's not a FF game if there isn't some highly specific strategy required to beat the boss. Still, I'm not sure that something quite so...particular? would be well recieved.

Yes, I know thinking sucks for people.

The current grand strategies are "Let's throw lots of noobs at it," "Insert X Burn Tactic here" or "Chainspell/Stun." All of which translate to a term we know as "spam."

[Murphie]

There is a huge difference between "thinking" and "forcing players to discover an extremely specific and limiting strategy".

[Wise Donkey]

Regardless of whatever strategy SE intends in a fight, someone will always think of the easiest way out, i.e. bring a bunch of SMN, RNG, BLM, etc.

[Murphie]

Regardless of whatever strategy SE intends in a fight, someone will always think of the easiest way out, i.e. bring a bunch of SMN, RNG, BLM, etc.Plus, once someone figures out the specific strategy required, is anyone else going to "think" about other methods? Unlikely. They'll just do what is required to beat the encounter and complain that there's no difficulty in the game.

Happens in every MMO. FFXI is no different.

[Kirsteena]

The problem is that that is a strategy for offline games. MMO, where you have to have people think, is different.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to have something like this. I like thinking out of the box, coming up with something different - part of the reason I like small manning stuff (my ls does some small manning in salvage, sea - far more fun). People have to think. However, FF has too many sheep =( I know, I used to lead a ls full of them.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Well, Limbus plays up some of the approaches i'm familiar with from other FF games, as to some of the ZM fights. CoPs have a more unique approach. Hell, i've done more CoPs with a balanced setup than I've done with the SMN or BLM x5 approach.

I'm even looking into pet-based statics for EXP and merit out of the interest of just experiencing it and to get some data on how Corsair's rolls would play into them.

Getting back on topic, I do have an attraction to pet jobs, I doubt I'd ever go SMN, but a Job like Necromancer - if given some other utility to PTs besides pet DD - would be one I'd likely play. If you mix in the ability to summon demons and chimera on top of undead you'd have some variety in damage types (Blunt, Slash, etc.) and they could do various spells.

We've already got other pet alignments, the elemental ones are covered by SMN the majority of others are used by BST, PUP's Automation can be customized for various functions while DRG has a Holy Aspect to face dragons. SAM, PLD and DRk oppose Demon, Undead and Archane respectively. We have nothing that really opposes Holy/Light as agressively as these other aspects.

You could also flex to many subjobs if it was capable of soloing, along with giving it the right spells. Weapons could be daggers, sword and staves. It wouldn't be too unrealistic to add Alchemist elements, either (the job not the craft skill), taking various items to create something only they could make to use through Job Abilities. Perhaps it could be used to call demons, create refresh items, emulate spell effects and the like. They're already calling the undead, it wouldn't be out of reason to think they dabble in the darker aspects of Alchemy.

I will concede another consumable-based job would make it less attractive to the general player, but the job might be able to overcome that better than RNG or COR would, as people do pay to play NIN partially due to its image, solo aspects and the like. People like "dark" jobs, after all.

[Akashimo]

Well written on the concept. I am interested on the idea of it being implemented.

If we look at jobs based on what they oppose in terms of cities, DRK vs Bastok(zeid), Summoner(windurst, smns are heritics after all), Corsairs vs Blu & Aht Urhagan, even Dragoon vs San d'Oria to an extent(gotta love the CS).

Looking at jobs as what they represent, DRGs are Demons due to the fact Demons having Dragon Killer, yet could also be Dragons because of Spirit Surge and call wyvern. Paladin with undead killer and Dark with Arcana Killer based on chart, Paladins are Arcana and Darks undead. Also generally Drks do behave like the undead where as they steal from the living. Paladins with high defense and white magic. Most arcane with casting abilies do use Cures and an in effect defend more than attack. (AoE Stuns/bind to lower dmg).

To have Necromancer would be in a logical sense the next step for job oppositions to whats around and already here in the game. Lets wait and see. =3

[Mhurron]

I know SE said Necromancer would be a difficult job to implement due to the whole daylight thing, So they created PUP as a way around it.

They already took the idea of 'necromancer' and changed it to fit the game. They won't add the job again.

[Akashimo]

So they created PUP as a way around it.
They already took the idea of 'necromancer' and changed it to fit the game. They won't add the job again.
Meh, still its the idea of being able to control more than just charm able mobs, automations, wyverns, summons and elemental spirits is what to look for. As much as I love summons from the console games, smn here was a let down, so was people perception and acceptance of Pup. If anything add a job to become a Fomor so in a sense, at 40 gain a trait to become immune to aggro from undead, yet, carry job abilities that changes with your sub. Unfinished yes, unoriginal, maybe, compromise idea, probally.

[Neomage]

Necormancer would likely come out looking much like PUP, and we see how well that went.

Now isn't that odd now... PUP plays almost exactly like Necromancer would...

Oh wait. Puppetmaster is SE's incarnation of Necromancer. They said it themselves.

[Akashimo]

Now isn't that odd now... PUP plays almost exactly like Necromancer would...
Oh wait. Puppetmaster is SE's incarnation of Necromancer. They said it themselves.
And its the loljob of the game, yea, real nice, next we see STP for stool pigeon >_>; I really fail to see the concept behind PUP, and its take by people really poor. Crash and burn, lets see something made by the players as a whole for a new job with little input by SE other than small limitations. Maybe a new job contest hosted by FFXI forums?

[BurningPanther]

PUP has potential, people just need to warm up to it. I've seen PUP deal pretty consistent damage through melee and support, thought it seems to lack the strength to necessary at higher levels. People are only just now coming around to the worth of DRG(though some remain close-minded), and PUP still has some growing to do.

The only thing I'd have wished different is being able to control Arcana puppets. Now that would have been cool.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Now isn't that odd now... PUP plays almost exactly like Necromancer would...

Oh wait. Puppetmaster is SE's incarnation of Necromancer. They said it themselves.

SE also said BSTs weren't intended to solo and NINs weren't intended to be tanks... look how that worked out. PUP strikes me more as a homage to the Mime Class, as it would be totally broken and exploited in an online game if it performed the literal function.. WAR does Rampage, MIM does Rampage. you get the picture. It would actually be trump WAR as the most AFK job in the game.

So they gave the new job an Automation that emulated job functions through the use of attachments. The AF, too, reeks of Gogo, even if the color scheme is totally different. Addtionally, MMOs aren't strangers to automations being pets, you don't have to look far in others to see that. So I don't quite buy SE's claim this was its substitute for Necromancer. Why not just do Necromancer in the first place it that's what people wanted?

Anyway, I think PUP and BLU aren't played to potential. Even popular jobs are not commonly played to potential, I mean, how many WARs do you know that have capped every weapon they can equip? The job is a weaponmaster. How many do you know that have subbed /SAM or even /MNK? Met any that acutally use a GA? Or keep a DEF build on hand in case they're asked to tank?

The instances are few, but we don't dump on WARs about not doing it since they've been around so long and we think DD defines that job. That's not true.

[Murphie]

SE also said BSTs weren't intended to solo and NINs weren't intended to be tanks... look how that worked out. PUP strikes me more as a homage to the Mime Class, as it would be totally broken and exploited in an online game if it performed the literal function.. WAR does Rampage, MIM does Rampage. you get the picture. It would actually be trump WAR as the most AFK job in the game.

So they gave the new job an Automation that emulated job functions through the use of attachments. The AF, too, reeks of Gogo, even if the color scheme is totally different. Addtionally, MMOs aren't strangers to automations being pets, you don't have to look far in others to see that. So I don't quite buy SE's claim this was its substitute for Necromancer. Why not just do Necromancer in the first place it that's what people wanted?

Anyway, I think PUP and BLU aren't played to potential. Even popular jobs are not commonly played to potential, I mean, how many WARs do you know that have capped every weapon they can equip? The job is a weaponmaster. How many do you know that have subbed /SAM or even /MNK? Met any that acutally use a GA? Or keep a DEF build on hand in case they're asked to tank?

The instances are few, but we don't dump on WARs about not doing it since they've been around so long and we think DD defines that job. That's not true.In that case, we definitely don't need any more jobs in the game.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

In that case, we definitely don't need any more jobs in the game.

well, we do have a lot, but there are a few remaining with great potential and an opportunity to add something unique. I won't rehash Dancer or Geomancer as those have been covered on this forum rather well.

But what of Chemist/Alchemist? It would be another consumable job but if you had a job with the ability to make unique, temporary items, that could be a fun one. If you remember Rikku's Overdrive in FFX, she took any combination of items and provide and offense of support ability to the PT in that turn. That was directly based on Chemist from FFV and the options for Rikku's Overdrive required a massive chart. There were so many possibilities. If they made it so it played into alchemy without disrupting the craft skill itself, that could be something.

Mystic Knight is a hard sell since so much of what it did got absorbed into Red Mage in its design. The en-spells and spike spells are what I'm referring to there. Time Mage, same thing. WHM, SMN, BRD, RDM all have thier main spells. Oracle = boring. Viking is too obscure. Mediator is basically BST with a different name.

Engineer/Machinist... that one's always been tricky to nail down a definition for. In FFT the guy had a gun. FFIV Cid used mallets and had that Scan ability (also known as Libra). FFVI had Edgar, with a variety of DD/status inflicting ranged attacks (Bioblaster, Chainsaw, Flashbulb). SE could really make whatever they wanted out of that one.

[Murphie]

well, we do have a lot, but there are a few remaining with great potential and an opportunity to add something unique. I won't rehash Dancer or Geomancer as those have been covered on this forum rather well.

But what of Chemist/Alchemist? It would be another consumable job but if you had a job with the ability to make unique, temporary items, that could be a fun one. If you remember Rikku's Overdrive in FFX, she took any combination of items and provide and offense of support ability to the PT in that turn. That was directly based on Chemist from FFV and the options for Rikku's Overdrive required a massive chart. There were so many possibilities. If they made it so it played into alchemy without disrupting the craft skill itself, that could be something.

Mystic Knight is a hard sell since so much of what it did got absorbed into Red Mage in its design. The en-spells and spike spells are what I'm referring to there. Time Mage, same thing. WHM, SMN, BRD, RDM all have thier main spells. Oracle = boring. Viking is too obscure. Mediator is basically BST with a different name.

Engineer/Machinist... that one's always been tricky to nail down a definition for. In FFT the guy had a gun. FFIV Cid used mallets and had that Scan ability (also known as Libra). FFVI had Edgar, with a variety of DD/status inflicting ranged attacks (Bioblaster, Chainsaw, Flashbulb). SE could really make whatever they wanted out of that one.No. All of those ideas sound stupid.

[Omni]

As for Demi being too powerful, the spell always led to diminishing returns, each successive use knocked off less HP than the previous one. That would apply even if you had two people casting in succession. It was 1/4 of whatever the current HP was, it would never be based on the original HP. In any event, you could slap a large recast on it and place it above sub level so RDM couldn't exploit it.

you can start off each fight with the mob being at 75%. take a pld tank with you to get hate back asap and well, yea.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I might actually on the wrong track about Demi in any case, its already in the game as Gravity and described as a form of Time Magic on Wiki. Even the in-game graphics for it are reminicent of how the spell looked in other games, but instead of lowering HP it lowers movement speed and evasion.

Little more digging on the FFV Necromancer: They learn their spells by defeating enemies that know them. Its not exactly the same way Blue Mage does it since your targets for learning are much more specific. Necromancer's line of spells is dubbed "Dark Arts" and not Black Magic, so it appears to be a different line of spells.

Blue Magic was getting hit or seeing the enemy ability happen before beating them. Dark Arts just seems to be killing they guy that knows the spell. Splitting hairs, perhaps, but FFVI did have two variations of Blue Mage.

[Grizzlebeard]

Let's be honest, I can't see S-E ever doing justice to the necro class in FFXI. Feign dead, rezzes, summon corpse, and lich form on top of all the existing pet abilities a Pup already has. It'd break FFXI in half. Anything less than that and you'd know you were playing a weaksauce version of the original. I did like your spell ideas especially as you'd put some work into keeping them in an FF setting but I feel the combination of them and the necro-defining abilities would just be too powerful.

Just play Vanguard or EQ if you want to enjoy the true Necromancer experience. As an aside, the Vanguard necro is a hella fun class to play so far. :thumbsup:

[Clever Ninja]

Necro is just one of those things that can't happen due to how other jobs have the same traits or abilities already. It's like how Time Mage won't happen cause RDM/WHM/BLM have almost all of its abilities. We honestly have enough jobs in this game to be honest, unless its a tanking class nothing else should be considered. We have ENOUGH DD as it is.

[Illuen]

While I can see and understand the wanting of Necromancer, I'd, at least personally, much rather see jobs which have more of a presence in the Final Fantasy series show up before Necromancer. Mystic Knight, Engineer, even some of the weirder jobs from FFTA, such as Juggler or Gadgeteer (which I think is more connected to Edgar than Engineer as we've seen it in most games) would be fantastic additions. We have more than enough in the final fantasy mythos as it is, I'd like to see those explored before we tried others.

[Pai Pai Master]

If there are going to be any new jobs any time soon, I want them to be Chemist, Beserker and Geomancer. Those are the last three classic jobs we'd ever need, in my opinion.

Chemist could be a support class and use special tools (similar to Ninja Tools maybe?) as ingredients to create various mixes for beneficial effects for party members and detrimental effects and attacks on enemies. Beserker could be a heavy damage dealer capable of using extreme attack and speed buffs at the expense of large amounts of defense, eveasion and whatnot. Geomancer could be a tanking class using elemental attacks and shields based on their environments.

That's what I'd generally expect from these jobs if SE ever actually added them. There's certainly a lot of room for interpretation of these particular jobs by the development team in comparison to their roles in older games. However with jobs like Time Mage, Gambler and Sorcerer already implemented in the sets of jobs like White/Red Mage, Corsair and Red Mage respectively, I think these three are the most major classic jobs that have yet to be added and still have a place in the game.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

While I can see and understand the wanting of Necromancer, I'd, at least personally, much rather see jobs which have more of a presence in the Final Fantasy series show up before Necromancer. Mystic Knight, Engineer, even some of the weirder jobs from FFTA, such as Juggler or Gadgeteer (which I think is more connected to Edgar than Engineer as we've seen it in most games) would be fantastic additions. We have more than enough in the final fantasy mythos as it is, I'd like to see those explored before we tried others.

Well, Mystic Knight's biggest problem is SE gave their job-defining abilities to RDM with En-spells, so there would have to be away to work around that without taking away from RDM. Perhaps a Runic Ability akin to Celes could be one way of doing that - absorbing a spell with their sword, then chanelling it into a damaging attack in the next turn. You could skew them to a tanking class, I guess, but most people would shreik in horror in regards to tanking with any job that can't cure itself or blink damage.

People are wimpy like that in FFXI. Any other MMO would embrace such a class with open arms, but Utsusemi ruined any future tank potential for FFXI. WARs aren't even seen as tanks now and they can tank.

FFTA jobs... ehhh. A lot of the ones that debuted in that game were really worthless. Gageteer and Templar were ok, but things like Animist, Fencer, Sniper and others were frivelous or redundant. What's the real difference between a Sniper and an Archer, anyway?

Chemist could be a support class and use special tools (similar to Ninja Tools maybe?) as ingredients to create various mixes for beneficial effects for party members and detrimental effects and attacks on enemies. Beserker could be a heavy damage dealer capable of using extreme attack and speed buffs at the expense of large amounts of defense, eveasion and whatnot. Geomancer could be a tanking class using elemental attacks and shields based on their environments

Yeah, I think Chemist/Alchemist would be an interesting addtion, like I said before, just playing around with Rikku's Overdrive shows the vast potential it could have in FFXI, all that needs to be done is ensure it doesn't take away from the alchemy craft. Most people dismiss the idea based on the craft, but what's to say the job class couldn't be a bit more radical and play outside the rules of traditional alchemy?

Berzerker seems like a challenge to implement. The only real series examples we have to draw from are FFV, FFX-2 (which weren't hybrids) and then Gau and Vincent Valentine, who were BZK/BLU and RNG/BZK respectively.

They couldn't equip weapons, so they'd have to have the STR, AGI and DEX to back up the lack of weapons, not to mention H2H skill with exclusive WS, most likey. But then, this is much like Engineer, its something they can take more liberties with than other jobs.

Geomancer is well-trodden and I think lots of good arguments have been made for it. I'm still partial to Mog's version Geomancer, though.