BRD/COR song/roll effect question.

[IfritnoItazura]

I thought that COR/BRD and BRD/COR are limited to placing two beneficial effects on any party members. (Moreover, /COR can only effect one Phantom Roll status, while /BRD only one song status, but that's secondary to my question.)

However, someone changed my paragraph on BRD/COR on Wiki's Bard: Guide to Playing the Job (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Bard:_Guide_to_Playing_the_Job) to say otherwise. This is what I wrote:

: A BRD/COR player is limited to sustaining a total of two song and roll buff effects at at time. This means either two songs, two rolls, or one song and one roll--and no more. This is not a well explored combination, but at Level 40 to 54, the [[Healer's Roll]] can help bridge the performance gap between [[Mage's Ballad]]'s 1 MP/tick vs. a Red Mage's 3 MP/tick [[Refresh]] before access to [[Mage's Ballad II]]. Swapping in [[Corsair's Roll]] just before death of battle target can be used to increase the experience points gained. This bonus comes at minimal loss to the party's battle capability, since the roll can be overwritten with a song, and thus sidesteps the 60 second recast timer limit of [[Phantom Roll]].

I know now that the "two rolls" part was wrong, but this is what Zerobandwidth replaced it with:

: The /COR subjob adds one more global buff effect of the player's choice. As of a late 2006 update, it is possible to have two BRD songs and one COR roll active. (Previously, the COR roll would be counted as a song, and dispel one of the BRD effects; this was recognized by SE as a bug.) Further, a BRD song and COR roll with similar effects (like atk+ or acc+) will stack. This subjob also supplies the BRD/COR with buffing abilities that are not available to the main job, but supplement its intents -- like adding [[Ninja's Roll]] (eva+) to the standard atk+/acc+ repertoire for melee fighters, or even adding bonuses to pets for parties in which the BRD/COR is supporting a large number of DRGs or SMNs. The /COR will never be able to use the [[Evoker's Roll]] gained at COR40, but the hMP effect [[Healer's Roll]] can impressively complement the performance of [[Mage's Ballad]] and [[Mage's Ballad II]] between battles. Swapping in [[Corsair's Roll]] just before the death of a battle target can be used to increase the experience points gained. This combination is still rarely explored, but has great potential in a properly-assembled party.

I can't find any version update info on this change to song and roll limit, but since I wrote my paragraph from second handed info and cannot verify the accuracy myself (COR1 lol), I'm at a lost to whether what Zerobandwidth wrote is true or not.

Can BRD/COR really keep two song and one roll effects on each party member? Would someone mind testing it out and post a definitive answer? An URL to the particular version update info with this change would be appreciated as well. :)

[Nakti]

I just tested this myself as BRD14/COR5.

And, yes, there was a change!

I had 2 songs and 1 roll on. Which is nice, since I remember trying this combo when I originally unlocked COR and the roll overwrote one of the songs and yet the song could not overwrite the roll.

Nice job, SE! ^^b

Someone else will need to test whether each additional BRD/COR in a PT adds 2 songs and 1 roll, but I am thinking yes.

Edit: I found this Playonline update note:

An issue concerning the ability to use 2 Phantom Rolls under certain circumstances when a character's job was set to main bard, support corsair has been addressed.

July 25 update (http://www.playonline.com/pcd/update/ff11us/20060725vNusN1/detail.html)

Maybe this was part of the "bug" with COR rolls overwriting BRD songs.

[Redx]

Hmmm, my BRD is 75 but COR is only 25 >.>, still I’ll try testing it in a LS based merit pt (they'll be ok with it... I’m the BRD :thumbsup:).

I can see it being useful but weather or not it out weighs /WHM or /RDM for back up healing or /NIN for pulling in cannons is doubtful.

The extra buff might be worth it if you have a capable healer and provoker for sleeping mobs (or back up sleeper).

Could even be useful in endgame events.

But hitting a good number might just be too difficult.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

..... whoa

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Never really understood the interest in BRD/COR or COR/BRD, particulary for endgame events.

Is Minuet x2 + Chaos Roll really going to make a difference from two minuets? Attack does cap and there is a point where adding more becoms pointless. Same thing applies to Accuracy, Evasion or Defense. You can't achieve 100% in any category, even with buffs.

As they say, "Its like giving ice to an eskimo."

Now, I could see a use for Mambo x2 + Ninja roll and Ballad x2 + Healer's Roll. COR does have the edge on BRD now in MP recovery while Evasion isn't the easiest or most practical stat to try to cap out depending on gear slots. I guess for direct melee Madrigal x2 + Hunter's Roll could be of some use, but in the context of endgame for both COR and RNG, Prelude x2 and Hunter's would be better (Prelude my RNG in EXP and I'll kill you, though).

I think the other possible combinations are frivilous and that COR has less to gain from /BRD than BRD does /COR. With both main jobs, most of the best buffs are out of subjob range, but moreso for /COR than /BRD. Singing skill is the big killer and you can't use an instrument under subjob.

Seeing as BRD can use a COR buff without that Phantom Roll being weakened in power, I think its high time instruments were adjusted to be of use for /BRD. A buff's power under /BRD is noticably diminished. This is mostly due to BRD's skill rating in instruments, which is C, so there should be some way to boost those buff and adding silly little event items isn't going to really adress that. So I think that needs fixing - Either reduce /COR buffs under sub or let /BRD use intruments.

All that said, if there was a support class I wanted to use as a subjob, I still think /WHM is a vastly better choice than /BRD or /COR. Cures, status cures, in addtion to Reraise, Raise and Stoneskin/Blink - its a survivalist subjob, its proven in endgame, proven in solo and proven in EXP. The only other subs that can really aid survival are /NIN, /RDM, /BLU or /SMN.

A dead BRD or even a dead COR does no one any good and I think its better to provide addtional support or even DD than it is to stand there being mostly helpless and useless beyond buffing/debuffing.

Finally if you're just subbing /COR to scam more EXP/merits, you should be drug out into the street and shot. Don't let a gimmick buff take precedence over a beneficial one.

[Samuzuki]

Finally if you're just subbing /COR to scam more EXP/merits, you should be drug out into the street and shot. Don't let a gimmick buff take precedence over a beneficial one.

lol, more xp/merits defnalty not a benifical thing then.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

lol, more xp/merits defnalty not a benifical thing then.

You're just looking at the bottom line, not efficiency.

EXP per hour > EXP per kill.

Would you seriously pass up Chaos Roll for Corsair Roll with a DRK present? BRD/COR is not COR main, so you'd not get a bonus for Corsair Roll as COR naturally would. You'd only get small EXP returns at that point. Practically unnoticable ones at that.

You'd get a bigger boost out of Chaos Roll from the DRK just being in PT. If I'm BRD/COR I'm totally going for Minuet x2 + Chaos Roll as BRD/COR in that EXP scenario. That is, unless the melee are near the attack cap.

Even if a COR was present, you still could roll something better to compliment one of the other jobs in PT, cover the mages or the melee with a misc buff the COR isn't doing.

But BRDs also pull and what subs are best for that? I think we know the answer there.

EXP per hour > EXP per kill.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

I think the following two concepts, concerning this new phound phenomena:

1.) BRD/COR w/Healer's Roll will prove invaluable for assisting in xp chains, which will greatly assist healer's to recover MP to heal more easily, thus ensuing longer duration of survivability and longer xp chains and more xp / hour. I think this is glorious.

2.) BRD/COR w/Corsair's Roll will obviously provide you with more xp if you so wish. But you quite possibly can get more out of Healer's Roll than anything else, depending on the situation.

Those are the major ones. Everything else seems like icing on the cake. Though, I don't really see how you can argue that Sam's roll won't be beneifical in end game. -Shrugs.-

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

2.) BRD/COR w/Corsair's Roll will obviously provide you with more xp if you so wish. But you quite possibly can get more out of Healer's Roll than anything else, depending on the situation.

You'd get more out of Healer's Roll.

As for Samurai Roll, until SE fucks up and gives us more ways to get TP, I don't consider its level placement broken. It would have a place, that's a good point.

[Karinya]

The Phantom Roll effects of a character with corsair set as a support job are weaker, and do not gain the bonus effect from the presence of the applicable main job in the party.

Then again, that was the sentence before they say that COR/BRD and BRD/COR are limited to two effects, so they may have stealth changed that too. But it sounds like your request for /COR nerfing (because it's so overused?) has been granted in advance.


I notice all your examples are of two songs and a roll all doing the same thing and therefore running into diminishing returns. Why not Madrigal + March + Chaos Roll or Minuet + March + Hunter's Roll? Haste, accuracy and attack each *improve* the usefulness of the other two. Normal attack DPS= Damage per hit * Hits per swing * Swings per second. On the other side, as COR/BRD, I believe March's haste percentage isn't affected by lack of an instrument and it's a buff COR can't natively provide at all - what is wrong with Hunters + Chaos + March? (Or if you prefer Warriors + Rogues + March or any other combination... either way, March increases the effectiveness of both other rolls by allowing people to swing more often.) Instead of diminishing returns you get synergy - increasing returns.

It does seem like mainly an option for when you're not pulling, or not pulling anything dangerous, because otherwise giving up /NIN is significant; and you raise a good point that the benefits of /WHM should also be considered. But I don't see that as a reason to rule out providing 2.5-3 buffs instead of 2. In endgame situations you're usually not pulling as BRD or COR, and there are often several WHM or /WHM around whether you bring it or not.

But then, I've used RDM/BRD and known people who've used WHM/BRD and consider them both useful in the right situations, so you could say I'm already outside of mainstream thought on subjob issues. That doesn't necessarily make me wrong though :D

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I notice all your examples are of two songs and a roll all doing the same thing and therefore running into diminishing returns. Why not Madrigal + March + Chaos Roll or Minuet + March + Hunter's Roll? Haste, accuracy and attack each *improve* the usefulness of the other two. Normal attack DPS= Damage per hit * Hits per swing * Swings per second. On the other side, as COR/BRD, I believe March's haste percentage isn't affected by lack of an instrument and it's a buff COR can't natively provide at all - what is wrong with Hunters + Chaos + March? (Or if you prefer Warriors + Rogues + March or any other combination... either way, March increases the effectiveness of both other rolls by allowing people to swing more often.) Instead of diminishing returns you get synergy - increasing returns.:D

I'm a big believer that every party member can contribute to making a PT more effective as opposed to relying on BRD, RDM and COR to compensate for them. Things like accuracy gear and haste should be a priority to you if you're melee (with the exception of RNG and COR since Haste does jack for ranged attacks, though it can be nice for Utsusemi recasts at times).

And at EXP levels, I feel stacked buffs are the best way to go. There's no excuse for a melee that comes to EXP without considering any accuracy gear whatsoever. Attack buffs BRDs can cover well and its better than the attack food melees could use anyway.

Merit levels, I can see Haste being better, but again, this is an avenue melees need to cover for themselves and, addtionally, WHM RDM and SMN shouldn't be passing the buck to a BRD just because March comes at no MP cost. If you're a RDM and have a BRD in PT, you've got no excuses, especially so if you have a WHM on main heal.

Kinda why I prefer COR now anyway, they can't use those excuses on me so much. Best haste I can do is Fighter's + Samurai Roll. Have a nice day.

I'm fine with mixing up buffs, but I should never be compensating and buffs still vary with setup. If the buffs don't directly benefit all the melee, I'm using something that will, diminishing returns or not.

Good example: Rangers.

Haste does not affect their ranged attacks, so its wasted on them. Prelude is an insult, Madrigal is worthless to them as well. Those buffs may be nice for WARs, but not the RMG at all. So if you have other melees and a RNG are in PT, you damn well better be doing Minuet x2. Melee can suck it up and eat sushi, they'll still do just fine.

Now, in the case of BRD/COR, I think it is acceptable to mix in Hunter's Roll. The reason being is its beneficial to both sides of the party. Its based on the Accuracy Bonus job trait, which applies to accuracy AND ranged accuracy, its a nice combo package and since RNG is in PT, bonus for that. And its not wiping a good buff with a crap one for RNG because it would be the COR buff and not the BRD ones.

BRD/COR isn't entirely bad, nor is COR/BRD. But I still don't think its worth my time to retread BRD or COR as subs for either of my characters, I'm already retreading WHM and NIN, possibly SAM as well, so ... no thanks.

[Samuzuki]

Ok then that statment made me think you were condeming the use of /cor for better xp/hr, just beacuse its a "gimmick", but yeah if it ends up being an inifficent sub then that sucks :(.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

I'm a big believer that every party member can contribute to making a PT more effective as opposed to relying on BRD, RDM and COR to compensate for them. Things like accuracy gear and haste should be a priority to you if you're melee (with the exception of RNG and COR since Haste does jack for ranged attacks, though it can be nice for Utsusemi recasts at times).

And at EXP levels, I feel stacked buffs are the best way to go. There's no excuse for a melee that comes to EXP without considering any accuracy gear whatsoever. Attack buffs BRDs can cover well and its better than the attack food melees could use anyway.

Merit levels, I can see Haste being better, but again, this is an avenue melees need to cover for themselves and, addtionally, WHM RDM and SMN shouldn't be passing the buck to a BRD just because March comes at no MP cost. If you're a RDM and have a BRD in PT, you've got no excuses, especially so if you have a WHM on main heal.

Kinda why I prefer COR now anyway, they can't use those excuses on me so much. Best haste I can do is Fighter's + Samurai Roll. Have a nice day.

I'm fine with mixing up buffs, but I should never be compensating and buffs still vary with setup. If the buffs don't directly benefit all the melee, I'm using something that will, diminishing returns or not.

Good example: Rangers.

Haste does not affect their ranged attacks, so its wasted on them. Prelude is an insult, Madrigal is worthless to them as well. Those buffs may be nice for WARs, but not the RMG at all. So if you have other melees and a RNG are in PT, you damn well better be doing Minuet x2. Melee can suck it up and eat sushi, they'll still do just fine.

Now, in the case of BRD/COR, I think it is acceptable to mix in Hunter's Roll. The reason being is its beneficial to both sides of the party. Its based on the Accuracy Bonus job trait, which applies to accuracy AND ranged accuracy, its a nice combo package and since RNG is in PT, bonus for that. And its not wiping a good buff with a crap one for RNG because it would be the COR buff and not the BRD ones.

BRD/COR isn't entirely bad, nor is COR/BRD. But I still don't think its worth my time to retread BRD or COR as subs for either of my characters, I'm already retreading WHM and NIN, possibly SAM as well, so ... no thanks.

I respect your idea of not retreading your subjobs. That's your personal choice.

I fail to see any valid reason why BRD/COR is simply "not entirely bad."

The idea is breathtaking. To say otherwise,.... makes me wonder if you're shortsighted on the issue. Nothing you've provided makes me believe BRD/COR isn't crazy good.

Sorry.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Ok then that statment made me think you were condeming the use of /cor for better xp/hr, just beacuse its a "gimmick",

I was. Corsair's Roll is a gimmick. There are better COR buffs that will provide better EXP per hour, but for BRD they're still going to pale to what you could offer a PT through /WHM or /NIN to reduce downtime.


I fail to see any valid reason why BRD/COR is simply "not entirely bad."

The idea is breathtaking. To say otherwise,.... makes me wonder if you're shortsighted on the issue. Nothing you've provided makes me believe BRD/COR isn't crazy good.

BRD/COR looks good on paper, I'll give it that. I respect that you've done some research on when which job gets what buff. But looking good on paper is different from applying it in EXP and knowing when a job gets a buff is different from applying the role in PT.

Looking at it from level one with no experience is shortsighted, looking at both from 75 and having levelled both is something radically different. I don't have to level either sub to know how to apply them, I've already taken both all the way. Why sub something I won't need 99.9% of the time? I see no tangible benefit to doing so.

Since you're a RDM, I'll explain from a RDM perspective. Most RDMs prefer /BLM for EXP PTs. Aspir, Drain, the BLM enfeebles, Magic Attack Bonus and Escape are chief amoung /BLM's features and great reasons to have it around.

However, there comes the times you're expected to main heal and thats when you have to think about what you need to sub instead of what you want to sub or how you want to play. RDMs can swear up and down that they can main heal and melee without missing a beat, but its still not the most effective way to play RDM.

I mean, the PT is relying on you to not only keep them alive, but to keep them functional. /BLM won't do it and neither will wailing on the mob with your sword. You have to keep haste up, enfeebles on, Refresh cycles and cure people. Nuking falls by the wayside. And there are also times when you're not main healing and the WHM is struggling to maintain MP. That's where you come in and help them manage status cures to keep their MP up and the EXP flowing. /WHM is a must a times. Like /WHM or not, you're less of a RDM if you don't have it at your disposal.

The core function of RDM, BRD and COR is to eliminate downtime. Its not to just buff, its not to just pull, its not to just backup heal - its none of those roles exclusively. Its exclusively about keeping downtime low. That is all its about and the subjob you pick should aid in that function, whether its to help spot status cures and help in healing or keep EXP chains high and damage low. Faster kills with more accuracy is great and BRD/COR could possibly do that, however, I garuntee you BRD/WHM and BRD/NIN will rake in more EXP per hour, will die less and their PTs will see less downtime.

That's not shortsighted, thats reality. I totally hate subbing /NIN on my COR, don't like it one bit, but I can't complain about the merits I'm seeing now from it. There are things that look good on paper and then there are things that really get results.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

I was. Corsair's Roll is a gimmick. There are better COR buffs that will provide better EXP per hour, but for BRD they're still going to pale to what you could offer a PT through /WHM or /NIN to reduce downtime.



BRD/COR looks good on paper, I'll give it that. I respect that you've done some research on when which job gets what buff. But looking good on paper is different from applying it in EXP and knowing when a job gets a buff is different from applying the role in PT.

Looking at it from level one with no experience is shortsighted, looking at both from 75 and having levelled both is something radically different. I don't have to level either sub to know how to apply them, I've already taken both all the way. Why sub something I won't need 99.9% of the time? I see no tangible benefit to doing so.

Since you're a RDM, I'll explain from a RDM perspective. Most RDMs prefer /BLM for EXP PTs. Aspir, Drain, the BLM enfeebles, Magic Attack Bonus and Escape are chief amoung /BLM's features and great reasons to have it around.

However, there comes the times you're expected to main heal and thats when you have to think about what you need to sub instead of what you want to sub or how you want to play. RDMs can swear up and down that they can main heal and melee without missing a beat, but its still not the most effective way to play RDM.

I mean, the PT is relying on you to not only keep them alive, but to keep them functional. /BLM won't do it and neither will wailing on the mob with your sword. You have to keep haste up, enfeebles on, Refresh cycles and cure people. Nuking falls by the wayside. And there are also times when you're not main healing and the WHM is struggling to maintain MP. That's where you come in and help them manage status cures to keep their MP up and the EXP flowing. /WHM is a must a times. Like /WHM or not, you're less of a RDM if you don't have it at your disposal.

The core function of RDM, BRD and COR is to eliminate downtime. Its not to just buff, its not to just pull, its not to just backup heal - its none of those roles exclusively. Its exclusively about keeping downtime low. That is all its about and the subjob you pick should aid in that function, whether its to help spot status cures and help in healing or keep EXP chains high and damage low. Faster kills with more accuracy is great and BRD/COR could possibly do that, however, I garuntee you BRD/WHM and BRD/NIN will rake in more EXP per hour, will die less and their PTs will see less downtime.

That's not shortsighted, thats reality. I totally hate subbing /NIN on my COR, don't like it one bit, but I can't complain about the merits I'm seeing now from it. There are things that look good on paper and then there are things that really get results.

BRD/WHM can heal a little. But, I would never rely on a BRD/WHM for full time support healing to a main healer. A Taru BRD/WHM "maybe." BRD/NIN is useful only after 24, but if you know what you're doing, you can pull with limited damage done to you and 1 cure can fix you right up usually if you have a bad pull. /NIN is really more of a cushiony-feel good version of pulling, unless you're pulling something like raptors. I've ptd w/BRD/WHM before that slept pulled and it worked out fine. I guess it depends on the players skill.

I haven't done any math and I can't remember off the top of my head what Cor Roll gives in % of XP, but from experience, it sure makes up for xp if you are in a pt where level differences are out of wack and your pulling mobs much lower level than your highest lvl in party. Plus overtime, withing one hour lets say, how much xp would you rake in from CR that you wouldn't otherwise?

My thinking is that it won't really be as ineffective as most ppl think.

[Lmnop]

I skimmed a bunch of this (derailed) thread but lemme toss some stuff out...

-if melee are wearing haste gear, this is all the reason to give them more haste. The more haste you have, the faster you swing. The faster you swing, the more extra hits you'll get from being hasted. I came to notice this reading some DRK thread on KI where the guy was getting flamed for meriting Desperate Blows instead of "useful" things. But with his haste build, it was incredible how many extra swings 20% delay reduction was netting (unfortunately, I can't find that thread or I'd copy/paste the math here). At any rate, most jobs wearing haste have amounts between 10 and 25%. If you can give them another 8%, you should.

It's true, RNGs won't get any benefit from most of the melee buffs. This is probably the main reason that RNGs have fallen in priority for TP burn. They've been unnerfed so their damage is great, sure... but no one wants to give up haste songs 'cuz there's a Rng in the party. And if it's a COR, well no one really cares if their attack buffs are lacking.

-I don't think subbed Brd or Cor effectiveness should be increased/decreased. S-E probably doesn't care that one subs better than the other. And honestly, shouldn't Omgwtfbbqkitten be glad for that? Certainly, when you play COR the last thing you want is to be made to sub Brd. Seems for you, having it be a mostly-inefficient sub would be just dandy. But brd/cor... this gives Brd a new dimension of play w/out really cutting into it's roll(sic). I'm probably wrong but it seems like cor/brd, on the other hand, with 8 second songs... you'd probably end up losing time to perform the offensive side of your duties (quick draw, some DD when you get the chance, and not a chance at pulling).

-In "end game" (not merit parties), you'll pretty much never see diminishing returns on any melee buff. Between level penalties and naturally insane stats, every bit of accuracy gear means much less when fighting these things. Even on weak stuff though (such as merits), +attack is so damn useful all the time... I dunno about you, but I notice the difference between attack food and Attack food + Berserk.

I haven't really chosen sides, here. Just wanted to rectify some things that've been said. I suppose I like the concept but I don't want every brd to become a cor and vice versa.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

-if melee are wearing haste gear, this is all the reason to give them more haste. The more haste you have, the faster you swing. The faster you swing, the more extra hits you'll get from being hasted.

...

It's true, RNGs won't get any benefit from most of the melee buffs. This is probably the main reason that RNGs have fallen in priority for TP burn. They've been unnerfed so their damage is great, sure... but no one wants to give up haste songs 'cuz there's a Rng in the party. And if it's a COR, well no one really cares if their attack buffs are lacking.

However, when you buff a PT, you buff what's best for ALL of the melee, not just one because they have a load of Haste gear. If you put a RNG in the setup, you should be doing Minuet x2 for them no matter what because that will be the best overall buff for all the melee. Problem is, some.. well, a lot of BRDs get too set in their ways and just play March anyway.

I think the "more swings" versus "more damage" argument is a "potatoes"/"potatos" discussion when mobs go down so fast, but its clear haste does nothing for ranged attackers. If RNG is in PT, Minuets are vastly better for all melee. Since BRDs don't do this I often have to drop the /NIN in order to put up better number and I don't care how much anyone cries about the damage I'll take at that point. If the BRD isn't going to help me be more effective, to hell with 'em.

I don't think subbed Brd or Cor effectiveness should be increased/decreased. S-E probably doesn't care that one subs better than the other. And honestly, shouldn't Omgwtfbbqkitten be glad for that? Certainly, when you play COR the last thing you want is to be made to sub Brd.

That's not exactly what I was getting at. /BRD songs are somewhere between 1/2 and 1/3rd the power of BRD main due to it being based purely on singing skill. /COR has no such reduction in potency save for only being able to have one roll active. I think /COR buffs should be balanced out to reflect the power of the sub, regardless of the fact that we don't have a Gambling skill. Since COR buffs are random, cutting the power in half probably wouldn't be the best solution.

I'd suggest removing the ability to Double Up under sub. It might clear BRD from getting some unlucky #s or busting, but it would prevent them from acheiving XI buffs. If /BRD can't use instruments, then /COR shouldn't Double-Up. I think that's fairly balanced.

+attack is so damn useful all the time... I dunno about you, but I notice the difference between attack food and Attack food + Berserk.

And yeah +Attack is useful all the time, however, Minuet x2 trumps any food you could eat for boosts to attack. I laugh my ass off at all the hasted Spampaging WARs that never break 600 in merit even with attack food. Eat sushi, put on some +acc gear, get Minuet x2 and you'll put up WAY better numbers with Rampage. RNG can really get away with attack food because of the insane level of accuracy they get natively.

What about Haste? Potatoe/Potatos. See initial statement. Buff what is best for all melee, not just one or two of them.

[IfritnoItazura]

Ha! I finally came across the proper reference here (http://www.playonline.com/pcd/update/ff11us/20060418lfQ7d3/detail.html):
As of the July version update of 2006, a character using bard songs and the corsair ability Phantom Roll is able to stack up to 3 effects on each party member.
However, a single character is only able to receive up to a total of 12 combined Phantom Roll and bard song effects.

The same page also says:
The Phantom Roll effects of a character with corsair set as a support job are weaker, and do not gain the bonus effect from the presence of the applicable main job in the party.
Omgwtfbbqkitten: Seems like you're stating that Phantom Roll from /COR as a support job is as strong as from COR main; is that really true? It apparently contradicts S-E's own posting.

I do have a new question, though:
A Phantom Roll effect cannot be reapplied until after it has worn off or been removed
Does that mean a COR cannot override his previous rolls with different rolls, or cannot reapply the same rolls while it's still in effect? I'm confused... :wasted:

* * *
Off topic: What's wrong with using Prelude for Rangers? (Of course, given most tanks I've seen on my BRD30, it was probably best to give RNG's Minne instead of anything adding to their DD ability... :rofl:)

[Icemage]

There's nothing inherently bad about BRD/COR but it does seem a bit overspecialized (or for that matter, COR/BRD).

There's one situation I can think of offhand where BRD/COR is actually useful, and that would be for Manaburn parties.

BLM 75 x 4
BRD/COR
COR/NIN (puller)

BRD can use Ballad II, Ballad I, and Healer's Roll
COR can use Evoker's Roll and Corsair's Roll or Wizard's Roll.

Tons of MP, tons of attack power. BLMs can sub WHM or RDM to patch people up if necessary in between kills.

I can also see some HNM-specific applications for this (Dynamis Lord, for instance).


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

There's one situation I can think of offhand where BRD/COR is actually useful, and that would be for Manaburn parties.

BLM 75 x 4
BRD/COR
COR/NIN (puller)

BRD can use Ballad II, Ballad I, and Healer's Roll
COR can use Evoker's Roll and Corsair's Roll or Wizard's Roll.

Key problem with this setup: Healing people isn't a BLM's strongest point. I can't tell you how many manaburns I've done as both BRD and COR where I've constantly been running around in the yellow or red. Those little pintey-hatted porkers won't cure me. It's really 90% of the reason you have to go /NIN. BRD would really be the best go-to for cures there, but since they're subbing COR they would be in more danger.

I'd personally rather have it RDM+COR or RDM+BRD so we have a reliable healer. Not to mention someone that can actually stick Gravity.

And really, if you do have a smoking manaburn, not only do you not need the extra support class, you don't really need Wizard's Roll at all. Its kinda frivelous when they're dropping T4s, AM or AM2s. You can get chain #13 in Mount Z being the sole support class whether you're BRD or COR, but I wouldn't go BRD/COR there in any case or vice versa.

You'd really have to keep your distance in endgame functions with BRD/COR. COR isn't well off on DEF and BRD has it even worse in that regard unless you are really decked out on sky gear or something.


Omgwtfbbqkitten: Seems like you're stating that Phantom Roll from /COR as a support job is as strong as from COR main; is that really true? It apparently contradicts S-E's own posting.


If it is halved, then I haven't seen any good data on it. I don't even know if it would be worth testing but what the hell:


Start ATT 259 ... End ATT 277 - Chaos Roll Value #6 Job: COR/NIN
Result +18 attack

Start ATT 286 ... End ATT 296 - Chaos Roll Value #6 Job: RNG/COR
Result +10 attack


Take it for what it's worth, but I didn't test this perfectly.

This was w/o a DRK and RNG was practically naked. I'll try to lure a DRK in later and try again with full RNG gear, but I'm sleepy right now and could really give a damn.

Bonus with DRK would usually be about 6 to 7% if you were COR main. so you're looking at 3 to 3.5% if it really is halved under sub. But if you're going for COR Roll on BRD/COR, the returns are pretty much crap.

This was just an example, but even as main, the low end COR buffs - save for WHM and SAM Roll - aren't much to write home about vs. what a BRD could dish out. Most of COR's best are past sub level, they're the ones that really distinguish COR from BRD.

In any case, SAM and WHM roll would still be of value since they're not percentage-based, they're just fixed bonuses like Evoker's Roll. With or without a SAM, you're still getting at least 1 extra TP per hit on SAM Roll and that's gonna help you get more WS more quickly.

[Nakti]

Thank you for the tests, BBQ. I was very curious about that myself.

[Karinya]

Key problem with this setup: Healing people isn't a BLM's strongest point. I can't tell you how many manaburns I've done as both BRD and COR where I've constantly been running around in the yellow or red. Those little pintey-hatted porkers won't cure me.
Well, I think he was assuming that at least some of the BLMs are not morons. A doubtful assumption considering the present state of the playerbase, but a necessary one for that party setup to work.

If it is halved, then I haven't seen any good data on it. I don't even know if it would be worth testing but what the hell:

Start ATT 259 ... End ATT 277 - Chaos Roll Value #6 Job: COR/NIN
Result +18 attack

Start ATT 286 ... End ATT 296 - Chaos Roll Value #6 Job: RNG/COR
Result +10 attack

Take it for what it's worth, but I didn't test this perfectly.
This was w/o a DRK and RNG was practically naked. I'll try to lure a DRK in later and try again with full RNG gear, but I'm sleepy right now and could really give a damn.

I would point out that 6 is a pretty lousy number for most rolls, including Chaos, so the effects with a decent number will be bigger in both cases. But it clearly does point out that COR gets better results than /COR.

I calculate 6.94% more attack with COR, 3.49% with RNG/COR; almost exactly half the percentage. RNG's higher base attack accounts for the raw number of +attack being more than half as much. It may actually be 7% and 3.5% and rounding produces the observed result. (Or it may be 18/256 and 9/256, which give the same numbers after rounding, but are faster to calculate with - just multiply and discard the low byte, no division needed.)

In any case, +10 attack for all physical attackers in addition to whatever BRD buffs you are providing is far from insignificant (and that's on a substandard roll). It may or may not be better than the benefits of another sub, but it shouldn't be ruled out altogether, especially if you are not the puller (which typically means before merit levels, or in non-exp situations).

But if you're going for COR Roll on BRD/COR, the returns are pretty much crap.

Well, that's pretty much the case for COR roll in general, imo. Improving the party's fighting effectiveness and/or reducing its downtime is generally a better way to improve party performance, unless you are very very short of mobs, or so low level that you don't have other good options. I pretty much abandoned COR roll at COR14, and see no good reason to go back to it in most parties.

In any case, SAM and WHM roll would still be of value since they're not percentage-based, they're just fixed bonuses like Evoker's Roll. With or without a SAM, you're still getting at least 1 extra TP per hit on SAM Roll and that's gonna help you get more WS more quickly.

I'm not convinced of this. The amount of extra TP per hit could easily be less than 1 - TP is stored with one decimal place and the Store TP trait can give less than one additional TP per hit (depending on how much of it you have and what weapon you are using). It's possible that testing could reveal that SAM roll really does always give at least 1 more TP per hit, but I doubt it - that would be a 20% bonus to low delay weapons, which is pretty insane.

SAM roll might well still be useful /COR, but there's no <i>a priori</i> reason to assume a floor of +1.0 TP per hit. (Or even +0.1 TP per hit - it's possible that with a low roll and a really low delay weapon the extra TP could round to 0.0.)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I would point out that 6 is a pretty lousy number for most rolls, including Chaos, so the effects with a decent number will be bigger in both cases. But it clearly does point out that COR gets better results than /COR.

As I said, I was too tired to give a damn about extensive testing, we'll see about extensive testing a bit later, I have 56 BST to get, a coffer key to solo and a day to spend in GC lookin' for it. If my LS DRK spawns, I will log kitten in and make him my guina pig.

At any rate, even with 6 Roll, we proved it was basically halved. I hate math and refuse to rise above the basic math. But we reached that conclusion all the same :rofl:

In any case, +10 attack for all physical attackers in addition to whatever BRD buffs you are providing is far from insignificant (and that's on a substandard roll). It may or may not be better than the benefits of another sub, but it shouldn't be ruled out altogether, especially if you are not the puller (which typically means before merit levels, or in non-exp situations).

Eh Minuet x2 beasts those returns at any rate, subbed or not. Complimenting job for the roll in PT is only when it could really compete.

Well, that's pretty much the case for COR roll in general, imo. Improving the party's fighting effectiveness and/or reducing its downtime is generally a better way to improve party performance, unless you are very very short of mobs, or so low level that you don't have other good options. I pretty much abandoned COR roll at COR14, and see no good reason to go back to it in most parties.

Only good place I could find for it was Manaburns where AM2s are dropping mobs in seconds. Otherwise I just used it to push people over thier TNLs when a PT was about to close so I could f'n go to bed. That or a little extra EXP from skillup PTs.

Its a gimmick, but I'll admit, its fun PTs think they're getting it from me when I never roll it at all. I won't tell em if you won't.

I'm not convinced of this. The amount of extra TP per hit could easily be less than 1 - TP is stored with one decimal place and the Store TP trait can give less than one additional TP per hit (depending on how much of it you have and what weapon you are using). It's possible that testing could reveal that SAM roll really does always give at least 1 more TP per hit, but I doubt it - that would be a 20% bonus to low delay weapons, which is pretty insane.

SAM roll might well still be useful /COR, but there's no <i>a priori</i> reason to assume a floor of +1.0 TP per hit. (Or even +0.1 TP per hit - it's possible that with a low roll and a really low delay weapon the extra TP could round to 0.0.)

Well, I'll try a test later since I already know the TP outcome for a sucessful Barrage with Hellfire + Silver Bullets is 100 TP. 2 is a pretty easy value to hit on SAM Roll since that's the lucky number.

If the TP return is an Odd number beyond the 100% then we probably are dealing with a percentage, but if it has a clear multiple after 100%, its likely a fixed bonus.

One thing is for certain, though - SAM Roll is always good.

[Lmnop]

If you put a RNG in the setup, you should be doing Minuet x2 for them no matter what because that will be the best overall buff for all the melee.

Agreed. I was stating rationale.

.
And yeah +Attack is useful all the time, however, Minuet x2 trumps any food you could eat for boosts to attack.

It doesn't trump Minuetx2 + Meat food.

I laugh my ass off at all the hasted Spampaging WARs that never break 600 in merit even with attack food. Eat sushi, put on some +acc gear, get Minuet x2 and you'll put up WAY better numbers with Rampage.

Eww, it checks Low evasion. What else do you want? I'm fine with 90% hit rate instead of 96%. I like watching my per axe swing do 50%
more than the other warriors.

-And I like Samurai's Roll.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

It doesn't trump Minuetx2 + Meat food

Five fold attacks (SlugShot/Sidewinder is just 5x damage) are highly innaccurate, even on T or VT. The only jobs to get Accuracy Bonus naitively are RNG and DRG, so they have more options to play with on food and could still land WS pretty well on T and VT without so much accuracy gear using meat.

That's not so much the case with other melee. Hitting for 50-60% doesn't sound as good as landing all five, shushi would increase that chance with a good mix of att+ and acc+ gear. I fight T and VT as BST, but I still want to ensure all my hits land with Rampage, so sushi all the way. I'd be soloing for delevels if I didn't.

[Theiry]

I have a few things to add. Although I'm sure everyone will throw out whatever I say due to the fact that I'm not level 75. While I may not actually party much, I've been playing this game since the beta and have read ungodly amounts of information on it. That being said, Bard is the job I've read most about, and the job that will eventually be my first (and only) job to 75. I can assure you that I've at least read more about the inner workings of Bard (and /COR) than most 75 Bards have, so take my post however you want. Not saying I know more about Bard than most 75 Bards, just that I've read a lot more about all the little things involved. Anyway, enough of the "don't flame me just because I'm not level 75" disclaimer, onto my post:

One thing that I'm pretty sure wasn't mentioned yet, albeit a bit off topic, is that COR/BRD does have one song that is hardly nerfed at all from being BRD sub, and that's Mage's Ballad. That will always give 1 MP a tick. The only three instuments in the game that boost it are the Storm Fife (in Assault only), Millennium Horn (in Dynamis only), and the Gjallarhorn. In other words, in the vast majority of the game, COR/BRD gives just as much MP from Mage's Ballad I as a Bard main. Granted that's not always the most useful thing in the world, but I imagine it's still the biggest selling point of COR/BRD.

Back on topic, this Japanese site (http://ff11wiki.rdy.jp/-192896103.html#s9d20c3e) gives a partial list of Phantom Rolls, their values per number rolled, and the values per number when Corsair is your sub job (the link takes you directly to the Samurai Roll information, scroll up/down for other rolls). I don't have Corsair unlocked (I don't even have the expansion yet =l) so I can't vouch for that sites accuracy, but it at least shows that the numbers are usually haved.

One thing of interest is that (with a few exceptions) the numbers are rounded up, not down. What would normaly give you 3 will give 2 as /COR, what normally gives 5 gives 3, and so on.

As far as the actual use of going BRD/COR, as I see it, you can't go wrong with /COR if there's no reason to sub anything else. This might sound obvious, but it's true =) If you are in a party where none of the melees take damage (ie, they are all /NIN) and all the mages are subbing White Mage, there's no reason for the Bard to be sitting on a full MP pool the whole time. If the Bard is pulling in said party, they should sub Ninja, but if not, what should they sub? If they never take a hit is /NIN of any use? If they never have to cure anyone (or remove status effects, ect) is /WHM of any use? In that case, wouldn't it be better to give the mages 1-5 HMP, the melees 1-9 Store TP (or some attack or something), and the tank extra evasion (or magic defense, or spell interuption rate down)?

Having played White Mage I know that in most Ninja tank parties I would much rather have extra HMP (even if only 1-5) than for the Bard to be able to throw out some cures every once in a while. The more mages your party has the more this becomes true. As I said though, this is only true if the Bard doesn't need to be the puller and they don't need to back-up heal. That might not happen often, but when it does I'm sure Corsair is a great sub.

One thing of interest, that site I linked to seems to say that you do get a 'certain job in party' bonus to Phantom Rolls with subbed Corsair. This is the only site I've seen to claim this, but then again, it's the only site I've seen with numbers for /COR at all. If this is true, that makes Healer's Roll, and especially Samurai Roll, much better. The site claims that Healer's Roll gives +1 HMP to each number if White Mage is in the party (which is most likely the only time a Bard could go without /WHM), which raises it to 2-6. It also says that Samurai Roll gives +4 Store TP with a Samurai in the party, whether you are Corsair main or Corsair sub. I'm not sure if that is true or not, but if so it's a very nice bonus to both rolls.

That would make Samurai Roll return from 5 to 13 Store TP with a Samurai in the party. For a 450 delay weapon (like a Great Katana) that's from 0.5 to (just under) 1.5 TP every hit. That means that at least you are giving the party only 1 less Store TP than the best Store TP food can use, also 1 less Store TP than most melees would have on (Rajas + Brutal = 6). At best you are giving more Store TP than most classes can get at all (without /sam). Which, I would think, would make BRD/COR extremely useful in certain parties.

Also, even though some melees can get more Store TP from equipment than a /COR could give them, that might not be enough alone. Ask any Samurai if it's worth gearing above Store TP +21 (not counting traits) and most will say no. That's because you have to lose a lot of good gear to get to a 5 hit set up (5 hits to 100% TP). So, what if a Samurai (or any other melee) could get up to the next tier (like a Samurai getting to a 5 hit setup) without losing much just because the Bard subs Corsair? I haven't crunched the numbers yet (though I'm sure I will eventually =P) but I bet that 5-13 Store TP, plus whatever gear a normal melee would be willing to wear, could be enough to break to the next tier. In fact, without any equipment for Store TP, a Dark Knight with a delay 528 scythe could get to a 6 hit set up with just the +13 a BRD/COR could give them. Granted, you can't count on rolling an 11, but still. This might be true for other melees as well, I'll have to look into that later.

~(Note that my numbers about the Samurai job itself might be a bit off. I did all my Samurai TP gain research before the last TP adjustment. It used to be +23 to get a 6 hit set up, now it's +21, and that might now be worth doing. At least, I think it's +21 now, that's assuming that the new TP formula on Wiki is correct. Of course, none of that makes any difference on whether or not Samurai Roll from BRD/COR would be useful to other melees.)


Anyway, as I said, take my post however you like. I plan to level Corsair just so I can sub it to Bard if/when I think it will be useful. I'm fairly sure there is enough use for BRD/COR that Corsair should at least be considered the 4th most needed sub for Bard (after White Mage, Ninja, and, arguably, Red Mage). Granted no party will ever request the last two of those four, but I'm sure they both have their uses.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Thank you.

I have my doubts about the job being in PT having the same bonus under sub as you do the main. As I said, I'll be doing some tests on this soon (bad night in GC, no coffer key yet).

Bottom line is: SAM Roll = always good. Particularly in those PLD/DRG/COR frontline setups where you really have nothing better to Roll.

Some rolls just aren't as hot as others. Choral Roll has some nice, if obsure uses. Like if you're doing an NM like Charybdis and you already have two mambos, Choral's Aquaviel effect could be just as nice as more evasion from Ninja Roll.

Of the ones under sub as /COR - SAM, RNG, DRK and WHM rolls are the best by far. While I don't really focus on them as COR main as the higher level buffs are our best ones, I'll fall back to RNG and DRK roll on things like Greater Colibri.

[IfritnoItazura]

(Original content removed.)

I'd like to thank Omgwtfbbqkitten for addressing my concerns, as well as for all his contribution and expertise on these topics. ^_^

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

..

[Murphie]

No it isn't.

[Visper]

Off-topic - Calling-out is cowardly. If you want to address your issues with someone, take it to PM.

Off topic...again

Umm... Then shouldn't you follow your own advice and do the same?!?! As other have said your information and expertise is awesome, but you really talk out your butt sometimes also :/

[Theiry]

I redid all my old Store TP calculations to see if Samurai Roll from a BRD/COR would make it easier for a Samurai to get to a 6 hit or 5 hit build. Of course, I still don't know how much it would help... since I'm not exactly sure what gear a normal level 75 Samurai wears. But a Samurai with Store TP merits is only 11 short of a 6 hit build. That means that, theoretically, if the BRD/COR rolled an 11, the Samurai could take off all their Store TP gear. If the BRD/COR rolled less than 11 the Samurai would need to wear some STP gear, but less than normal.

I'm not sure what Store TP gear a 75 Samurai wears, but I bet there's something better they could equip if they could keep their 6 hit build. I would guess the Hachiman Kote, Brutal Earring, and Rajas Ring would be the most common items to use. Which means that BRD/COR would let a Samurai ditch their Hachiman Kote in favor of something better. I'm not sure what is better, but there's probably something.

The better use for /COR Samurai Roll is probably to help non-samurai melees get to a fewer hit build. I haven't crunched the numbers on that yet though.


(oh, and PS, thank you IfritnoItazura ^^ I've always had problems trying to keep my sentences and paragraphs short in forum posts. People never seem to understand me, so I try to explain everything as best I can. Which has the unfortunate side effect of longer posts. Breaking paragraphs too often makes posts even longer, so I usually try to avoid breaking them when it isn't correct to do so. Meh, now I'm babbling again =P Anyway, thank you.)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I also suffer from being inconsice at times, I'm just inconcise with lots and lots of mini-paragraphs.

I personally don't dig too hard into the numbercrunching, but for those that are in the same boat Phantom Rolls (with the exception of lucky and unlucky) grow stronger from 1 to 11. The higher values are what you want to shoot for if you miss a lucky. 11 is the best possible buff you can get with a Phantom Roll.

The big exception here is Evoker's since its just fixed bonuses, but that's not important to BRD/COR since its a level 40 buff.

Healer's Roll I don't obsess over too much. +hMP buffs are cumalative in effect while resting, gaining +1 MP each tick of rest. All Healer's Roll really does is tweak the starting point of the +hMP, its always cumalative after that point. 3 is the lucky just try to avoid a 7.

Healer's Roll used on a WHM stands up very well on its own, I'd almost say that you really didn't need to refresh them if they get that buff and have the +hMP gear to really boost it.

Oh, and there is one thing I forgot to mention - Phantom Roll can give you a second chance to catch a straggler. its not the best way to use PR, but when somone misses the initial buff, its at least something.

[Theiry]

Thank you.
I have my doubts about the job being in PT having the same bonus under sub as you do the main. As I said, I'll be doing some tests on this soon

I kinda doubt that as well. The first time I saw that I figured the site was just assuming that /COR gets a bonus as well. Though the fact that the bonus' are different on Healer's Roll seems to imply that they didn't just assume it would be the same. Which makes me wonder if they might be right about Samurai Roll. Although it seems unlikely.

I look forward to your test results =) There doesn't seem to be much information online about /COR yet (or Corsair at all for that matter). I plan on having Corsair available as a sub for my Bard regardless, as I have a few odd duoing ideas I want to mess around with. Still though, it will be nice to know when I should use it for partying. The job bonus would be the most important aspect of 'when to use it' if it really does work with /COR.



Some rolls just aren't as hot as others. Choral Roll has some nice, if obsure uses. Like if you're doing an NM like Charybdis and you already have two mambos, Choral's Aquaviel effect could be just as nice as more evasion from Ninja Roll.

It's a shame that so little information is out there about the lesser used rolls. Choral Roll could be incredible if the numbers are good enough, or nearly worthless if they are too low. Same goes for Ninja Roll and a few others. It's hard to know if BRD/COR throwing out a subbed Ninja Roll would be useful or not, since we don't even know what the stats are from a main Corsair.

[IfritnoItazura]

That means that, theoretically, if the BRD/COR rolled an 11, the Samurai could take off all their Store TP gear. If the BRD/COR rolled less than 11 the Samurai would need to wear some STP gear, but less than normal.
Hmm. That brings up an interesting point: not only do support role jobs have to provide support matching the party members and targeted monsters, the party members themselves should consider the effectiveness and the type of support offered, then gear and fight appropriately for the monsters the party needs to kill.

So far, one of the implied question is how well does BRD/COR do compare to BRD/WHM. What if we ask what kind of party and setup best suit BRD/COR compared to BRD/WHM? And, what do people need to work better with BRD/COR's?

Having little BRD (and zero COR) experiences first hand, I can only tell BRD/WHM is versatile and adapts well in just about any party. BRD/COR would likely be more limited, but in which environment does it flourish, manaburn aside?

(oh, and PS, thank you IfritnoItazura ^^ I've always had problems trying to keep my sentences and paragraphs short in forum posts.
Oh, you're not the only one with that problem, I can assure you. >_>;

People never seem to understand me, so I try to explain everything as best I can. Which has the unfortunate side effect of longer posts. Breaking paragraphs too often makes posts even longer,
That could explain some of the (non)responses to some of my... um... I mean, to some other people's posts. <_<;

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Finally got around to doing my little experiment.

Job: RNG/COR
Weapon - Hellfire + Silver Bullet
Usual TP return on sucessful Barrage (5 bullets used) = 100% TP
Sucessful Barrage return with /COR + SAM Roll Lucky #2 = 108% TP

Rough estimate on TP gained per shot landed = 1.6 TP

No Store TP gear used.

[IfritnoItazura]

1.6 additional TP per shot? For 20 TP per shot, that's a 8.0% more TP, or equivalent to Store TP +8.

The JP page (http://ff11wiki.rdy.jp/-192896103.html#s9d20c3e) cited by Theiry says it should only be Store TP +5 for /COR on roll 2, however. Odd...

(The JP site also says Store TP +4 bonus when Samurai Roll is used in party with a SAM main, whether it's from COR or /COR. Very strange... )

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Well, I didn't calculate the true TP gain from Barrage, I'm not big on breaking down the math behind DMG/Delay and how that relates to TP gain. But it was a leap from 100 to 108 on Barrage.

The info on the JP site could be outdated and still be posting the original returns rather than the ninja rebalance that came later.

[IfritnoItazura]

Deleted.
[Weird mis-post. >_>; ]

[Malacite]

I thought kitten proved that you have to COR main to get the bonuses for having the corresponding job for a roll in the PT?