How to leave a party without saying "This PT sucks?"

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I've had what one would probably call a chronic streak of fake disconnects lately. Its largely due to the fact that some of my PTs just aren't flowing like they should or I'm just too tired or annoyed to correct, give advice or bow out politely.

Had a Merit PT on Tuesday... if you could call it that. I'd call it a Valkurm PT.

Started out merely OK. SAM, NIN, RNG, BRD, WHM and me as COR.

BRD and I shared pulling duty and swiftly pulled in 3k. The NIN was ... AFKish, but we still managed to chain pretty well

Then the RNG, WHM and BRD had to leave. Gee, glad I came out.

And so, we find a RDM and SAM to replace and get a DRK/THF for DD. 30 minutes later we're rolling again.

Until the RDM begs me to stop pulling after chain #7, to which I replied ". . ."

What ensued from there was the AFK-ish NIN and the original SAM haveing a rather nasty argument with the RDM. Turns out the RDM and 2nd SAM were one of those romantic-couple package-deals where both use each other to get out of levelling other subjobs. RDM said she was a "sucky /WHM" which probably meant she didn't level a WHM sub at all. RDM girl and her loverboy SAM get pissed and leave.

So we find another RDM and another SAM. 20 minutes downtime this go-round.

Things picked back up though Caedarva Mire was now rather packed with people. 6k later disaster strikes and the RDM dies. DRK goes back to town to get WHM sub, SAM goes and changes to WHM. Actually didn't have too much of a problem with the DRK going /WHM since he was taru and we still has the other SAM for damage spike.

That was until our new SAM came back as WHM. I asked him if he just raising as WHM and coming back SAM. No, he's staying WHM. This wouldn't have been a problem so much if he had WHM gear, but he was naked and telling us "I'll just keep my distance."

And that's when I pulled the cable out of my PS2 and relogged into my taru to level BST again. Over two hours And I just almost made a merit, but I didn't care anymore.

I really wish I could find a nice way to disband PT sometimes. Maybe I just should do the traditional lie of "LS Event" but for some reason "power went out" or just not explaining myself feels better. I would use "I don't feel well," but I used that for three months last year when it was true.

[raidenn]

Just tell them you're going afk for awhile and not sure when you'll be back.

Sounds like everyone in your party has issues. It does happen a lot.

I remember being in a party with 2 SAMs who know each other and are so skillchain-happy that they were filling up the party chat with their 'tp ready' , 'weaponskill', 'skillchain commencing in 3 sec' , 'meditate-ready', '3rd eye' messages. Annoying when they have the <call> set too.
Once in awhile you get a drg who has a 'up, up and away!' set up on all his Jump macros.

I just told them I have to hit the town for some things I need to do and leave the party.

[IfritnoItazura]

I don't have problem telling people:

"I don't think this party is working, and I'm leaving in 10 minutes unless we disband now. Sorry I won't be looking for a replacement; I wouldn't feel right to put another person in this group."

If it's true, just state it simply.

[Murphie]

I do (or rather, did) what Itazura does. I just tell them that the party isn't working and that I'm leaving. And I won't find a replacement, because I don't want to be mean to some random person.

[Akashimo]

To me, the only polite thing these days are, fake d/c, disband without saying a word or say, "I'm not up for it." Then warp =3. Serious note, pties like that, generally makes me glad I rarely make parties just because I'm not good as a leader and I like to be focused on doing my job rather than semi focused on checking for reps and keeping track of time til someone has to go. Out of my 2 years 8 months playing, I can only recall kicking 2 people, one was for trying to MPK the party and the other, was being AFKish too much. Parties I've ditched, lets see, on whm, dieing from an unnesseray and avoidable link by someone not moving away from a mob that spawned(only person that could land sleep on the mob too...), another just last tuesday on rdm, party at Mire, yea, at 66, adds were killing us and almost all my enfeebles(including dispel) got resisted. Like, 6 deaths didn't tell the guy, these imps are too high for us, his response, "No we can take them, chain 5 500 exp we can get from here". The war, sam and me bailed after the last aggro that almost killed the war. >_>;

[LyonheartLakshmi]

I think it would be far better to disband / warp out / flat out tell them the honest truth rather than faking a d/c. If you fake a d/c, the party doesn't know whether or not you're coming back. You're likely saddling them with some down-time while they wait to see whether or not you come back. You might feel that one or two really bad players in your party deserve to have their time wasted, since they already wasted your time. But there's probably 2 to 4 other players in that party who are decent, hard working players who don't deserve that.

[BurningPanther]

I like telling a party why I'm leaving. It feels good not having to hide behind anything, it allows them to know where they stand with downtime, and if there are one or more bad players or situations, then they can never claim ignorance about what sucks, because I was upfront with them about it. If they fail to improve afterward, they can safely be labeled n00b.

[Celeal]

tbh, I do really not like the EN party's replacement-in-mid-session style of exp. parties. I prefer the JP style that everyone in party disband at the same time once the party is over, no replacement unless for exceptional situations. No matter how good the party setup is at the begin, after a few replacement during the session, there is good chance for breaking the balance of the party.

I think a lot of those problem of "This PT sucks" would be gone if all the party members have the thinking of "party is precious, and lets get the most out of it in the limited amount of time."

If the party sucks, it simply sucks. There is no need to hide the fact that the party sucks. If I form a party and the party is unfortunately not working well, I will ask everyone's TNL in the party. If anyone in that party is close to next level, I would ask the party to wait until that person levels up, then disbanding party. If no one is close to level up, I would suggest for disbanding party when the food effect wears off (30 minutes at max).

I dislike ppl who Warp and disband in the middle of party, or fake d/c. It really lack of respect to others, as if the rest of the party does not exist or not a human being. Anyone has the right to leave a party (for whatever reason; it does not require any reason), just let the party knows before leaving, don't abandon the party w/o saying a word.

[IfritnoItazura]

Celeal: I wish we have more people like you on Ifrit. ^_^

[Kholdstare]

I'm not going to lie. It's a lot easier to say "I don't like this party, I'm leaving" when you aren't the kind of person that would beg for a party. Hell, a lot of times, if you're in-demand enough, you'll get people that bend over backwards so you DON'T leave. To say "You guys aren't living up to my expectations, I'm leaving" or even faking a d/c is very disrespectful and very primadonna. Really, In theory, Celeal's got it right. But, with TPburns and everyone getting the "it's a race" mentality, it's pretty sick what people will do for their "maximum" exp.

[Akashimo]

tbh, I do really not like the EN party's replacement-in-mid-session style of exp. parties. I prefer the JP style that everyone in party disband at the same time once the party is over, no replacement unless for exceptional situations. No matter how good the party setup is at the begin, after a few replacement during the session, there is good chance for breaking the balance of the party.

I agree on this, most if not all JP parties I've had do it this way. Some of the most fun I've had on any job I leveled. Even a few parties when I wasn't lfp on thf or mnk ^^;

[Murphie]

I'm not going to lie. It's a lot easier to say "I don't like this party, I'm leaving" when you aren't the kind of person that would beg for a party. Hell, a lot of times, if you're in-demand enough, you'll get people that bend over backwards so you DON'T leave. To say "You guys aren't living up to my expectations, I'm leaving" or even faking a d/c is very disrespectful and very primadonna. Really, In theory, Celeal's got it right. But, with TPburns and everyone getting the "it's a race" mentality, it's pretty sick what people will do for their "maximum" exp.No. To say "You guys aren't living up to my expecations, I'm leaving." is being honest. I'm not a prima donna for telling a party that things aren't working out. It's that kind of mentality that keeps people in miserable parties.

[DakAttack]

I say, "You guys rock! BBL"

[Theyaden]

I think a person has the right to anounce they are leaving if the pt does not work. However faking a dc is rude since party members may be being courtious and giving you up to 10 minutes to get back in. (Real dc's do happen). The only reason a person would be fake dcing is simply a lack of guts to tell the party I'm sorry pt is not working or I have to go.

My rule of thumb unless it really is an emergency is to give 15-20 minutes notice that I am leaving so that the pt lead can decide what kind of replacement he wants to find. Also I won't imediately leave on one bad pull since it could be the pt is bad or just bad luck as I was arriving. How the party plays out for the 1st ten minutes of grinding gives me a preaty good idea how things will flow and we all have different standards on what is workable there.

Note on add parties I don't mind pt's that replace members you sometimes end up with a less desirable setup, but I've had pt's that got better after a replacement due to removing a level gap or getting a more skilled player. (In some cases with a player that was not seeking when the party started) I've been in both types of party and never found one method to always trump to the other in effectiveness.

[Murphie]

I say, "You guys rock! BBL"I should start using this one.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

No. To say "You guys aren't living up to my expecations, I'm leaving." is being honest. I'm not a prima donna for telling a party that things aren't working out. It's that kind of mentality that keeps people in miserable parties.
It can be both honest and prima-donna-ish at the same time.

[Murphie]

Well, if worded like that, perhaps. But it's perfectly acceptable to tell the party that things aren't working out and that you want to leave. That's not being a prima donna.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

tbh, I do really not like the EN party's replacement-in-mid-session style of exp. parties. I prefer the JP style that everyone in party disband at the same time once the party is over, no replacement unless for exceptional situations. No matter how good the party setup is at the begin, after a few replacement during the session, there is good chance for breaking the balance of the party.

To be fair, JP players don't have to deal with a dozen different timezones. NA and EU players do not have that luxury, EUs especially. Its not a "style" for NAs and EUs, its a neccessity.

I've had plenty of replacement-based PTs that flowed for 10-30k EXP no problem, so I find it a little superstitious that a few changes would really break a PT that consistantly. I just find for every good streak there's a bad one that will eventually happen.

My scenario was an extreme one, too. The party started after 0:00 EST. So many of my fellow EST players are headed to bed or already there and PST are starting to wind down as well. There's really only a handful of nightowls between that three hour gap. So finding replacements at that time was more difficult that it usually would have been.

It actually took FFXI NA and EUs two whole years before they even reached the same conclusion about replacing yourself in EXP. In Everquest, it was totally customary and expected of you to replace yourself. But then, the parties in that game were not restricted to a 2-3 level gap, they could go up to 5. I never had a problem finding a Bard or Enchanter to replace me. Meanwhile finding a replacement for yourself as COR, BRD or RDM in FFXI is a chore.

The kiddie-draw of FFXI doesn't help, either. That one trancends the regions. EQ didn't have franchise, mainstream popularity, so mostly adults played it. So I'd assume those droves of people who picked up Vanguard recently were not the ones playing Warcraft III in an internet cafe on their mom's money.

[Kholdstare]

Well, if worded like that, perhaps. But it's perfectly acceptable to tell the party that things aren't working out and that you want to leave. That's not being a prima donna.

No, but the idea of "This party is pretty bad, I'm going to leave, I should get another party fairly soon, anyway" is being a primadonna. I mean, would you seriously leave that crappy party if it meant another 2-3 hours of seeking, with no guarantee that you'll get a party? That's what most DDs (and other jobs, if there is a surplus at the time) have to put up with. They have to put up with these crappy parties because it's almost definitely the only party they'll get that night. Whereas a BRD or similar job can fake a d/c, wait 15 minutes, and log back in and get a party invite before their screen even loads.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

would you seriously leave that crappy party if it meant another 2-3 hours of seeking, with no guarantee that you'll get a party?

Never stopped me from dropping PT as RNG or DRG, actually.

I just kicked my tank from a PT with no explaination as BST. Stupid beetle.

[Murphie]

No, but the idea of "This party is pretty bad, I'm going to leave, I should get another party fairly soon, anyway" is being a primadonna.No, that's being honest with yourself and expecting more from your time online. Why shouldn't you leave a bad party if you know you can get a better one shortly? Only a masochist or an idiot would stay.

I mean, would you seriously leave that crappy party if it meant another 2-3 hours of seeking, with no guarantee that you'll get a party? That's what most DDs (and other jobs, if there is a surplus at the time) have to put up with. They have to put up with these crappy parties because it's almost definitely the only party they'll get that night. Whereas a BRD or similar job can fake a d/c, wait 15 minutes, and log back in and get a party invite before their screen even loads.It depends on how bad the party is. If staring at my moogle, or crafting, or questing, or doing anything else is going to be more enjoyable than the party I'm in? Yeah, I'm going to leave. I'm not so concerned with getting any exp (no matter how slow or painful) that I'll just take any old crappy party.

[Kholdstare]

Never stopped me from dropping PT and RNG or DRG, actually.

I just kicked my tank from a PT with no explaination as BST. Stupid beetle.

Fortunately for you, tanks are far more common for a BST than for a standard party :wasted:

Murphie: I'm not saying that you should stay if you have something more productive to do. I'm saying that dropping a party to try and find a better party comes off as really disrespectful.

[Murphie]

And staying in a bad party when you know you can do better shows a lack of respect for yourself.

[Kholdstare]

And staying in a bad party when you know you can do better shows a lack of respect for yourself.

Who says that I can do better when I'm in a crappy party, though? Leaving a party to craft won't level me any faster. Quests don't give exp, either. Sitting in my mog house while I don't get invites won't get me exp. When you want exp, it's foolish to NOT exp for such trivial matters. When I want/need money, I'll go out and make it. When I need fame or a particular item, I'll do a quest. Neither of those is a good enough substitute for exp.

[Aeolus]

To be fair, JP players don't have to deal with a dozen different timezones. NA and EU players do not have that luxury, EUs especially. Its not a "style" for NAs and EUs, its a neccessity.


Im EU and I dont deal with different timezones, I deal with whos online at the current time. Sure, I can rely on JP players who are seeking to have at least an hour or two to play but alot of them put the time they want to leave in their comments. I ask EN players how long they have as they dont put their playtime in their comments to ensure exp for an hour at least. Ok, so some people cant read JP, neither can I to any huge extent but as the PT leader I find its my duty to know whats going, its not hard at all to figure out what 23 or 24 then a Jp symbol means considering most JP players do leave PTs at 11pm, midnight or 1am. Leaders should know these things, thats why you put together a PT and the other members dont, read up on your timezones as its a valuable thing to know in the world of FFXI. Its not all just about knowing where to camp.

[Murphie]

Bottom line, if the party sucks, I'm not sticking around. Does that mean I might not get EXP? Possibly. And I'm ok with that.

I don't subscribe to the "exp is exp" mentality. And I don't make any apologies because of that.

[Kholdstare]

Bottom line, if the party sucks, I'm not sticking around. Does that mean I might not get EXP? Possibly. And I'm ok with that.

I don't subscribe to the "exp is exp" mentality. And I don't make any apologies because of that.

I suppose I can see your point. I just suppose it's very disheartening to think "Yay, I'm gonna get some exp tonight." and end up leaving to do something you don't want to do.

[Raydeus]

Then again, it's all about having fun with the game, if xping isn't enjoyable because the party sucks then it's way better to go do something else than just staying because "xp is xp".

And if you have nothing else better to do in-game that you might find enjoyable then I'd suggest logging out and try doing something else, there are many ways to enjoy your free time other than playing XI. :thumbsup:

[IfritnoItazura]

I mean, would you seriously leave that crappy party if it meant another 2-3 hours of seeking, with no guarantee that you'll get a party? That's what most DDs (and other jobs, if there is a surplus at the time) have to put up with.

I'd leave. Have done so, actually, on RDM, NIN, and a number of DD jobs. (I've abandoned PL'ed parties because I was tired of chasing the mob around and missing weaponskills, not because the exp/hour was bad.)

I suppose I can see your point. I just suppose it's very disheartening to think "Yay, I'm gonna get some exp tonight." and end up leaving to do something you don't want to do.

Staying in a lousy, boring party is precisely what I do not want to do. FFXI is big enough that I can always find something else I'd like much better than exp'ing in a crummy party. If not, just turn off the computer and read a good book.

[Saren]

Personally speaking there are levels of suckage when it comes to parties. For some I would probably stay till someone levelled then find a replacement. For others I would say I am leaving in party chat, give a reason and disband without finding a replacement. Like Murphie said there are some parties it's just cruel to recommend to others. I am not at a point yet where I would feel comfortable questioning other peoples choices of actions/gear/sub etc because you really need to know what you are talking about before you start doing that and be very careful how you go about it.

Yes exp parties are about getting exp but if the party is grinding you down to the point where you are not having fun at all and possibly getting to the point of being annoyed, why are you in it? I would rather sit and wait for another party or do something else than grind my teeth while whichever idiot it is does whichever stupid thing they are doing again no matter how good the exp is. As for staying for the good players in the group, not my responsibility. If they chose to be in a group they know is awful that's their choice, they consented to having a rotten party.

I don't like fake dcs though, they are rude and/or cowardly. I get that sometimes you just can't be arsed to deal with the people but it doesn't take a lot of dealing with people to say 'I'm sorry, this party isn't working for me. I'm leaving now.' if you get hounded for an explanation or with insults and you don't want to listen to there is a blacklist function. I don't think it's wrong to leave a party for being dreadful so long as you at least say you are going, giving a reason why is kind but not required if you don't want to. Leaving people wondering if you are coming back, or not saying you are going is just plain rude.

[Akashimo]

Whats the call on getting killed by the mirror guards in mamook when exp pty has to find a new camp, got killed, reraised at the moment a mob came to aggro range and dead again? >_>; current situation for me atm.
Edit: Oh and if my estimate is right, both deaths resulted in loss of the exp I gained from this pty, lol.....

[Vyuru]

Well, while I can understand and respect Celeal's position, I'm gonna have to disagree.

I don't get alot of time to play, and I know that alot of other people do, so I may log on with only 3 hours to play, happens alot. Now I for sure want to get some exp, if I'm lucky I can make a party in under 20 minutes, if not, it may take me up to an hour to make one. Some people say that I shouldn't even make a party then, but I want to progress, and I don't want to have to solo all the way to 75. I will judge how the party works, 99% of the time most people will want to continue, so I'll get a replacement for myself when the time comes.

The other 1% of the time however 3 or more people may want to stop, so actually when I leave happens to be a good time to just disband the party. Rarely happens but it does.

You know, if I make a good party that works well, just because I have to leave I don't want the other 5 members to be suddenly without a party. That is why I dislike the japanese method of one person goes, everyone disbands. If it was a hard to find job, then sure I could understand. But if it's a thf say, and there are 10+ thfs lfg, and the party plans on going on for another hour or two, I'd rather get that replacement and continue the party.


If something is wrong with the party, I'll let the party leader know ahead of time that hey, such and such might not be such a good idea.

I also have the mindset that exp is exp, my minimum acceptable exp/hr rate is about 3k/hr, with or without exp band. If it's less than that it normally means sitting around waiting for some afk person or persons, and I'm sorry, but for the most part that is unacceptable to me.

I don't mind if you need to put your kid to bed, or something comes up. But don't say suddenly, "gotta run to burger king, be back in 20 minutes" or, "brb, smoke break" and leave for 30 minutes. If that is what's going on, I will leave. I don't get alot of time to play this game, so I either want to get in and get the job done, or at the very least have fun with the people I'm with. If we're sitting around doing nothing, and I do not like the people in the party, I will leave.

Flipside of that is if someone is doing something stupid, REALLY stupid, like casting Flare or Thundaga III on Colibri stupid. If the party isn't working together that well, well I normally stick through it so long as the exp is decent. I'm normally the SATA partner for thfs, so if a thf takes awhile to setup SATA I'll try to help them, and so far all have listened to me. However there are some parties that the players are just BAD. Case in point would be when I wound up tanking Velociraptors in the Valley of Sorrow as dragoon, dragoon no less, because the ninja couldn't hold hate worth anything, and I still did a better job than she did.

About the only time I can think of that I left a party was when a puller brought in two Soldier Crawlers, and I slept one (rdm/blm) and the other rdm cast Dia on it, and then let me and the rest of the party die, and then afterward sent me a /tell saying something to the effect of, "lol, guess having Dispel isn't all it's cracked up to be" For the record, I had dispel and mage gear, she had only enspells, no dispel, and melee gear. With a party member willing to MPK other party members for petty reasons, yeah I left that party.

[Clever Ninja]

Just because FFXI is a timesink doesn't mean its ok for people to deal with crappy parties. I've gotten to the point where I won't step INTO THE DUNES for partying outside of an LS one due to how stupid people are in that level range. I rather take twice to three times as long to get to 20 and keep my sanity. If a party isn't flowing, there's no reason to stick with it. Ever. We all pay our monthly fee, and although the other five people are doing the same thing, that doesn't mean you have to suffer because they chose to suffer as well.

Granted I don't expect AWESOME parties all the time. I'd never level like that. But, as its been said, a crappy party is a crappy party. Not everyone flows together when it comes to partying, and frankly if thats the case then whatever, I'll leave the PT after informing them that I don't like the setup and feel my time is being wasted here. If I can't form my own PT in 15-20 minutes or get an invite then I'll drop xping for that night and level another job or farm crafting mats. That or when I get to 30 on my Hume I'll unlock BST and level it in these instances.

I play this game to have fun, and standing around getting crappy exp =/= fun. I'm in no rush to level fast, I still have tons of quests to do, I'm only Rank 3 in Bastok, and I have a weird fetish with killing bees. I have other things I can do :3

[Jarre]

Thankfully my job gives me a good excuse to get out of bad partys. At the begining of each aprty I always tell the leader if I'm on call that night as I have ahd to in some cases quick log to go to an incident. people are cool and quite supportive with this as long as I tell them first. As they can't actually hear my pager when it goes off, if I need to get out quick due to a crap party its. "sorry guys, fire call" and I log.

[Pawkeshup]

I normally just say "This party isn't working well. I'm gonna flag up and seek another."

Then I disband, and if any party member asks me why, I tell them flat out.

[Kholdstare]

Granted I don't expect AWESOME parties all the time. I'd never level like that. But, as its been said, a crappy party is a crappy party.




You are probably the only person I have ever met that DOESN'T expect awesome parties all the time. Especially in the current state of the game.

I suppose I just have a higher tolerance for parties than most. Usually everyone's fairly talkative so I don't notice the crappy exp, or I do and don't care.

I've only had a few parties where I've gotten up the gall to leave. Both were pulling probably 3k/hour or somewhere in there, and NOBODY talked but me, and usually my talking was in the vein of "Dispel the crab you idiot!" or "Most people like to be healed once they've taken damage." etc.

Really, today's players by and large simply lower the standards, so just about every party is crappy, even if you get gobs of exp.

[Akashimo]

Start leveling pld/blu, drg/mage or bst/whm then ^^ no way to put up with pties then unless they move on your camp ^.^ j/p, anyways, yea, people do have annoyingly low standards. Very few parties I had this week were enjoyable e.g.) amusing chat while pulling safe, steady 5k/hour+ exp.

[Kholdstare]

Start leveling pld/blu, drg/mage or bst/whm then ^^ no way to put up with pties then unless they move on your camp ^.^ j/p, anyways, yea, people do have annoyingly low standards. Very few parties I had this week were enjoyable e.g.) amusing chat while pulling safe, steady 5k/hour+ exp.

Once I get to the point where I can solo imps on BLU/NIN, most parties can go to hell, to be honest.

As for BST, I don't want to level it again (52 now) until certain... issues are resolved.

I never heard of PLD/BLU soloing, though.

[Akashimo]

Cocoon gives such insane def boost @.@ like 50% of your current I believe. Add some of the DD spells, more of an mp pool and the weak but still useful stoneskin(metallic body) you'll love it =3 Oh and set some spells that add +vit

[Clever Ninja]

You are probably the only person I have ever met that DOESN'T expect awesome parties all the time. Especially in the current state of the game.

The Dunes and Garliage Citadel have severly lowered my standards, blame it on those places :/. Granted I still won't deal with crappy exp, but I don't go into a pt expecting OMGWTFBBQ awesome pwnage.

[Aksannyi]

Thankfully my job gives me a good excuse to get out of bad partys. At the begining of each aprty I always tell the leader if I'm on call that night as I have ahd to in some cases quick log to go to an incident. people are cool and quite supportive with this as long as I tell them first. As they can't actually hear my pager when it goes off, if I need to get out quick due to a crap party its. "sorry guys, fire call" and I log.
Similar situation for me, only it's my kids. I tell them that my kids are asleep - which they usually are by the time I get a chance to play - and that they may wake up during the party and I may need to AFK or just leave at a moment's notice. Most parties are understanding. On rare occasions I will set them up in their playroom with Spongebob on and listen for them, and these are the times when I definitely tell the party that I may have to go if my kids get antsy. Most of the time I can get at least two hours of playtime if I put them in the playroom, but I generally won't PT if I think they're going to keep me busy enough to make my playing suffer.

Then there was the one party where my son fell down the stairs (long story, but I was not supposed to be supervising them, my mom gave me a break and I decided to PT for a while, kid climbed up the stairs, fell, and I had a quick emergency on my hands) and the party didn't believe me. "YEAH, SUUUUUUUUUUUURE," they said. Well, I'm sorry if you don't want to believe me, but my kids will always have priority over this game, and if I have to leave because of them I'm not shy about saying so. He was fine, no cuts or anything, just a bruise and a bit of crying. I kept a close eye on him for a few hours then came back and played later after he'd gone to sleep. Shit happens.

That being said, have I used them as an excuse before? Only once or twice. For really crappy parties, I will just say that it's not working out, and ask the party if they want a replacement. Most of the time the other members know that it sucks, and will say {No thanks.} to the replacement. This way I know I can drop PT and seek right away afterwards without any guilt. Because if I really want to level but make up some excuse about why I can't play, for me to drop and then be seeking five seconds later is just rude. At least if I'm honest I can continue doing what I wanted to, which was level.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

As for BST, I don't want to level it again (52 now) until certain... issues are resolved.

It'll never get to 75 unless SE fixes what you're hoping they will and in most cases with recent updates, SE came up with solutions players didn't always consider themselves.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

I don't get alot of time to play, and I know that alot of other people do, so I may log on with only 3 hours to play, happens alot.
I'm in the same boat. I have one shot at significant play time once a week, for a window of about 3 to 4 hours, and that's it. I can enjoy even crappy parties which are mildly dysfunctional. Why? Because I enjoy progress. For those players who say that they are more than willing to ditch a subpar party even with a DD job, I wonder how many of them felt that way on their first job to 75 (and among them, which ones were leveling one of the lesser viewed DD job, as opposed to RDM/BRD/DD flavor of the day/etc).

[Murphie]

I'm in the same boat. I have one shot at significant play time once a week, for a window of about 3 to 4 hours, and that's it. I can enjoy even crappy parties which are mildly dysfunctional. Why? Because I enjoy progress. For those players who say that they are more than willing to ditch a subpar party even with a DD job, I wonder how many of them felt that way on their first job to 75 (and among them, which ones were leveling one of the lesser viewed DD job, as opposed to RDM/BRD/DD flavor of the day/etc).*raises hand*

I have always felt like this, even back when I was leveling DRG full time. If the party sucks and I'm not having fun, I'm going to disband. I play to have fun, and progress is just a bonus. If I'm not having fun, I'm not partying.

[Celeal]

IMHO, it is okay to ditch a party. However, how the player ditch the party matters.

In between the time that the player finds out that the party sucks, and the time when he ditch the party, there would be opportunity for him to "try something for the party" before he hits the disband button.

Some party may have some issue or not optimum to begin with. However, give the party a few suggestion, a little time and effort to work it out, there could be a possible solution. If there isn't any way to solve the issue, the player can leave the party and saying "we tried honestly, unfortunately the party does not work out."

[Murphie]

I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise, Celeal. I always try and make the party work before giving up on it. That seems pretty standard. I'm sure there are some folks who after the first or second fight just leave, but I honestly do try and "fix" things if I can before calling it a day.

[Celeal]

I don't know, I guess I had bad luck in my recent parties: Sometimes it has nothing to do with party performance... like arguments, people cannot get along and throw insults at each others; or sometimes like a main healer needed to go and found a mage for replacement, but as the replacement joined the party, he refused to main heal or even backup heal (even the job has all the tools required for healing)...

[Murphie]

Those instances are also perfectly reasonable times to say "This isn't working" and leave.

[Kholdstare]

It'll never get to 75 unless SE fixes what you're hoping they will and in most cases with recent updates, SE came up with solutions players didn't always consider themselves.

Well, there's not any one certain thing that I want them to change (though plenty of things they COULD change.)

I just want BST to not be SE's bastard child.

[Akashimo]

For those of us not enlighten on the ways of BST what is the fix you're refering to. Thats if its not the auto despawn thing for leave or charm rates.

On topic:
To fake d/cing, if everyone knows the party sucks but don't want to say disband before someone fake d/c, I wouldn't hold it against the person to d/c just to give the signal we should now before wasting anymore time trying to fix and still phailing. I have had parties wishing someone would d/c just so we can bail out and not invite a rep @.@

[Murphie]

If everyone thinks the party sucks, then someone should just cowboy up and say "Hey, guys, this isn't working is it?" thus getting to the heart of the problem and not wasting any more time.

[Akashimo]

Myself <.< >.> I usually like stating it flat out once or twice then subtley restate it until something happens. Most of the parties I've had doing that, one of those barely anyone, even dd, lfp so its kind of hard to suggest disbanding cause of the lack of lfp people and invites for even the popular jobs.

[Murphie]

It's not your responsibility to get parties for other people, though. If you think the party should disband, there isn't any reason to stick with it.

[IfritnoItazura]

To fake d/cing, if everyone knows the party sucks but don't want to say disband before someone fake d/c, I wouldn't hold it against the person to d/c just to give the signal we should now before wasting anymore time trying to fix and still phailing.

I find faking d/c to be rude, and take offense at it. It's dishonest, and make people waiting around just to avoid saying "I'm leaving" is slimy, IMO.

[Spiritbear]

How about this idea for leaving a pt. I was pting as my Whm and just let the pt die. Then told everyone I was going to hp and log so they decided to disband. Now I did this because the pt leader decided to move the pt from the Oasis in the dunes (where we were getting great exp 100-200 a fight and the occational chain) to the secret beach at lvl 15. When we did the first fight it took so long I was out of mp and half the party died, I suggested that we move back to the Oasis and continue the pt there. He told me "No way Noob exp is better here", I kindly explained to him that if I'm going to be out of mp after every fight then there it would not be better exp. He called me a Noob again, we got everyone raised and we did fight two with the same outcome. So when everyone was raise I made the suggestion again, he said No and called me a noob again. Now a little back info on the situation, I was still fairly new to the game but I had already lvled War to 21 and Mnk to 13 so I had my subjob quest already. He on the other hand was a 15 war with no sub and still wearing a subligar. So commenced my pt exiting strategy. It was awesome, I appologized to everyone and hp only to get an invite about 2 min later which I accepted and had a great exp party.

[BurningPanther]

How about this idea for leaving a pt. I was pting as my Whm and just let the pt die. Then told everyone I was going to hp and log so they decided to disband. Now I did this because the pt leader decided to move the pt from the Oasis in the dunes (where we were getting great exp 100-200 a fight and the occational chain) to the secret beach at lvl 15. When we did the first fight it took so long I was out of mp and half the party died, I suggested that we move back to the Oasis and continue the pt there. He told me "No way Noob exp is better here", I kindly explained to him that if I'm going to be out of mp after every fight then there it would not be better exp. He called me a Noob again, we got everyone raised and we did fight two with the same outcome. So when everyone was raise I made the suggestion again, he said No and called me a noob again. Now a little back info on the situation, I was still fairly new to the game but I had already lvled War to 21 and Mnk to 13 so I had my subjob quest already. He on the other hand was a 15 war with no sub and still wearing a subligar. So commenced my pt exiting strategy. It was awesome, I appologized to everyone and hp only to get an invite about 2 min later which I accepted and had a great exp party.
Kinda mean, but that was funny. I think it'll teach the other members of the team to speak up as well if things aren't going poorly, it might just get them all killed. =P

[Theyaden]

How about this idea for leaving a pt. I was pting as my Whm and just let the pt die. Then told everyone I was going to hp and log so they decided to disband. Now I did this because the pt leader decided to move the pt from the Oasis in the dunes (where we were getting great exp 100-200 a fight and the occational chain) to the secret beach at lvl 15. When we did the first fight it took so long I was out of mp and half the party died, I suggested that we move back to the Oasis and continue the pt there. He told me "No way Noob exp is better here", I kindly explained to him that if I'm going to be out of mp after every fight then there it would not be better exp. He called me a Noob again, we got everyone raised and we did fight two with the same outcome. So when everyone was raise I made the suggestion again, he said No and called me a noob again. Now a little back info on the situation, I was still fairly new to the game but I had already lvled War to 21 and Mnk to 13 so I had my subjob quest already. He on the other hand was a 15 war with no sub and still wearing a subligar. So commenced my pt exiting strategy. It was awesome, I appologized to everyone and hp only to get an invite about 2 min later which I accepted and had a great exp party.

While I can understand wanting to get even with the pt lead, did the other members you let die do anything to deserve it? If a party is pissing you off the answer is not to MPK the party but to indicate your leaving and leave it once the current fight is over. What you did is no better than firing a ranged attack at the nearest boggy and running it to the party in the middle of a fight.
If the pt lead calls me a noob he's lost the courtesy of the 10-15 minute warning before I disband, but mpking the other 4 people was over the top. Its not the fault of other pt members that they are willing to deal with a lower xp party but they all have to wait for weakness to wear off ru-use food items, and if the pt did disband wait for another invite which as a whm is not hard to come by if your a dragoon or dark it may be a different story.

[Murphie]

Didn't you guys read? The guy was wearing a subligar. That's good enough reason to let him die right there.

[BurningPanther]

Didn't you guys read? The guy was wearing a subligar. That's good enough reason to let him die right there.
And letting the guy with the subligar lead(or even wear it), makes you an accomplice.

An offense also punishable by death.

[Clever Ninja]

And that's why I don't party with jobs with no subs anymore. 99% of the time I have to deal with stupidity, like today.

I'm on my Hume 19RDM, partying at the Secret Beach and the other 2 pt members who were 20 decided to leave, and 1 decided to log, so we were gonna disband. To aleve some boredom, I told the remaining DRK/WAR and WHM(new and basically a crappy healer, had to pick up his slack) that I'd solo a Snipper which checked EM to me. DRK says ok, he'll voke if I go below 25% hp. I start fighting, the WHM starts curing me. Whatever. Then he casts Banish. I was gonna say whatever again, but he did it to a Pugil. Awesome. He stands there and dies, and I make a break for the Gustav Tunnel zone since I cast Cure on him before death. Of course, knowing my luck, a Banshee was RIGHT there at the Cave, and 2 seconds later I'm dead. Thankfully I didnt delevel, otherwise I'd REALLY be pissed.

[Theyaden]

I guess I'm just wierd that way boasting about MPKing your own party seems odd. We've all delt with being in bad pt's as well as good ones. Making a bad party worse deliberatly is hardly something to be proud of. When a party is that bad [Flee] it and get a better one. Let the rest decide for themselves if the pt is within their minimum expectations rather than punishing them for wanting to try to make it work.

[Murphie]

I guess I'm just wierd that way boasting about MPKing your own party seems odd. We've all delt with being in bad pt's as well as good ones. Making a bad party worse deliberatly is hardly something to be proud of. When a party is that bad [Flee] it and get a better one. Let the rest decide for themselves if the pt is within their minimum expectations rather than punishing them for wanting to try to make it work.No, I agree. It's odd. I just found the random "he was wearing a subligar" comment amusing. Random details for the win.

There is never a good reason for making a bad party worse. If you don't want to be in the party anymore, just leave. Don't ruin five other people's evening just because you're grumpy.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I find faking d/c to be rude, and take offense at it. It's dishonest, and make people waiting around just to avoid saying "I'm leaving" is slimy, IMO.

Well, let me ask you this - if your job is both and investment in time and expensive resources, what obligation do you hold to a PT if you are sinking those resources into it for paltry returns and wasted time? You can swing an axe and it will still be there, but when a tool, card, food or ammo is used, its permanently gone.

And since the FFXI community won't make concessions for those jobs to stay in the gil like people do in other MMORPGs, what loyalty should we hold to them? I'm not complaining that I have to spend gil to do my jobs - I have many ways to support it myself as these jobs - but I don't see a point to burning my resources it if I'm not getting a worthwhile return on it.

I don't see myself as special for spend loads of gil to do my jobs, yet at the same time, I don't see my jobs as charity work.

[Murphie]

What exactly does any of that have to do with people who don't have the courage to say "This isn't working"? I don't care what job you are. Faking D/C instead of just saying goodbye is cowardly.

Both faking a D/C and bidding the party adieu achieve the same result. But the latter means that everyone knows what is up, and they don't stand around waiting for you to return. Regardless of how terrible the party may be, a basic level of respect is kind of nice to maintain.

[Telera]

I don't get enough time to dedicate to levelling to deal with parties that break when one person has to go. I'm sure it's a grand thing for a party that is on a roll and they fear throwing a new cog into the wheel might scrap things, but for me, I'm going to get pretty pissed if I seek for an hour, get an invite, and someone has to go an hour later and the whole party breaks for it.

If it's a tank or something similar and there are no more seeking at the time, then ok, but if it's some DD, I don't see the problem with replacement. When I get time to party, I want do to it for a long time. I don't have time to mess with 'Bob has to go, so lets all break.' I've never understood the hatred of replacement. 90% of my parties have used it, and the vast majority of my parties have been solid. I can think of only 2-3 offhand that sucked very badly.

As to how to leave a party: depends on my mood. I've never left one that was started. I left one my b/f had started because a guy he invited was being a pretentious ass and I wasn't dealing with it. I simply said "I'm out, Matt." and dropped. The only other guy besides the 'ass' and my b/f dropped because of the guy soon after, too, so we restarted out little party build. But if I *had* to leave a group, I'd probably just say so and drop. Unless the members were already the type to be confrontational. In which case I'm never in the mood for lolintarwob flamewars and I would probably tell them I'm leaving, drop, and promptly d/c myself to avoid the ridiculous /tells.

Yes, my b/f and I static together. No, we don't do it as an excuse to not level other subs/keep our subs levelled at all. Not all couples are like that, despite it being believed by some people. Half the time we simply flag up at the same time, and don't even go in the same party. And when we are in the same group, we don't spend time babbling to one another. I'm usually healing and he's got his own things to be doing. We're both serious about our characters and our reputation on the server. It's pathetic that some couples can't even lay aside the cutesy-talk to level, but he and I do.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

What exactly does any of that have to do with people who don't have the courage to say "This isn't working"? I don't care what job you are. Faking D/C instead of just saying goodbye is cowardly.

Saying goodbye and abruptly leaving would be no different that saying "You suck" or d/cing outright. I've done both (well, not the "you suck" part) but never felt cowardly for doing so, I'm just shrewd.

And You're not looking at the situation detailed in the original post. This PT ran for over two hours, with an hour of downtime. The PT started after midnight EST and we got barely 9k the whole time in between the replacments, death and drama of the inept replacements. Oh and that AFK NIN and the SAM-turned-naked-WHM.

I'm not even sure leaving such a PT requires an explaination. Some people would have left just based on the the first hour of EXP, I stuck around hoping it would get better and it didn't.

As for what spending on consumable jobs has to do with any of this - level one for yourself and get back to me (subjobs do not count). When you eventually get that PT that is a waste of resources and reeks of Valkrum, perhaps you'll understand.

Or here's another way to look at it:

You're a RDM, I've been one once as well. Let's say you have a WHM in PT to main heal. This should leave you free to Refresh, nuke, enfeeble and support heal, right? Yet, somehow, you find yourself not only having to start hasting the tank and melee, but take over main healing because the WHM spends more time on their ass AFK than doing their job. Its your role to keep things efficient in PT, yet clearly there is somone not doing their part, creating downtime for you and everyone involved.

I had an Onzozo PT like this a year ago. Ironically, this was yet another boyfriend-girlfriend package-deal PT. Girl was WHM, Boy was NIN. There were spans of 10 minutes this chick went AFK without notice and it was more than once. The BLM and I were straining to keep MP up and eventually the NIN got sight aggro from a Torama during a fight. I sleep it and the NIN starts spazzing out at me, saying it didn't aggro (I'd know as his HP was dropping really fast, it aggroed.)

Had little choice but to CS/Escape the whole PT.

Here's the kicker - the NIN and WHM disband, telling us we suck. I think, if anything, we had the right to ditch them, not the other way around. If I had leader, I would have looked for replacments during PT and asked the BLM to D2 the twits without notice.

Big waste of time and these two somehow think I've forgetten that PT. So... is pretending to be AFK while seeking any better than fake d/c-ing?

[Murphie]

Saying goodbye and abruptly leaving would be no different that saying "You suck" or d/cing outright. I've done both (well, not the "you suck" part) but never felt cowardly for doing so, I'm just shrewd.Wrong. Saying "goodbye" or "you suck" lets the party know where it stands immediately. Faking a disconnect means that the party has to wait to see if you legitimately lost connection or if you just wanted to bow out of the party without being adult enough to just say so. There is a clear distinction.

And You're not looking at the situation detailed in the original post. This PT ran for over two hours, with an hour of downtime. The PT started after midnight EST and we got barely 9k the whole time in between the replacments, death and drama of the inept replacements. Oh and that AFK NIN and the SAM-turned-naked-WHM. This discussion has long since moved past your story in the OP. You still could have just owned up to your feelings and left.

I'm not even sure leaving such a PT requires an explaination. Some people would have left just based on the the first hour of EXP, I stuck around hoping it would get better and it didn't.So just leave. The party still knows where it stands, and you're not leaving five other people standing around wondering if you're going to come back. You can try and justify your actions all day long, but the fact remains that by faking a disconnect you no longer had any moral high ground.

As for what spending on consumable jobs has to do with any of this - level one for yourself and get back to me (subjobs do not count). When you eventually get that PT that is a waste of resources and reeks of Valkrum, perhaps you'll understand. LEVEL X JOB TO X POINT AND GET BACK TO ME, KK!

Right.

I don't care what job you're leveling. If the party is not performing to your standards, you leave.

Or here's another way to look at it:

You're a RDM, I've been one once as well. Let's say you have a WHM in PT to main heal. This should leave you free to Refresh, nuke, enfeeble and support heal, right? Yet, somehow, you find yourself not only having to start hasting the tank and melee, but take over main healing because the WHM spends more time on their ass AFK than doing their job. Its your role to keep things efficient in PT, yet clearly there is somone not doing their part, creating downtime for you and everyone involved.Happens all the time. And you know what I do? I leave the party. I don't have to put up with that shit.

I had an Onzozo PT like this a year ago. ....[some long anecdote about a bad party]... So... is pretending to be AFK while seeking any better than fake d/c-ing?No. In fact, pretending to be AFK is worse, because you're leeching exp. But what does that have to do with faking a DC? Both are selfish, one a bit more so, but still, selfish and cowardly.

No one is forcing you to stay in bad parties. Just leave if it sucks. But don't make five other people stand around wondering if you're going to come back. That's just rude, regardless of whatever "reasons" you use to justify it.

[IfritnoItazura]

There is no connection between gil expenditure and the ability to treat other members of the party with simple courtesy.

Among other jobs, I'm also NIN41. When I was leveling it, I tossed away stacks of Juji Shuriken, and spammed the wheel as soon as I had Ni level elemental attack/enfeebs. I was (and still is) lousy at making gils, too. Yet, still can't see the connection, after recalling that painful drain on the wallet.

There's no need to word good-bye's as "you suck"--the team doesn't work, didn't click, or just state your tired without going into specifics of why you're tired of that party all work. Heck, even a "I'm leaving in 10 min, and I'd rather not go into why" is better than a needless deception.

Save your shrewdness for how to say good-bye without being mean.

[Murphie]

There's no need to word things such as "you suck"--the team doesn't work, didn't click, or just state your tired without going into specifics of why you're tired of that party. Heck, even a "I'm leaving in 10 min, and I'd rather not go into why" is better than a needless deception.

Save your shrewdness for how to say good-bye without being mean.Agreed. There's no reason to add insult to injury, as it were.

[Vyuru]

I think that it is important to tell a party why you are leaving no matter what. I also think that it is important to try to nudge the party in the right direction and offer advice. There will be some people who just don't care, I've run into plenty of them, but there will also be some people who will try to do better.

If YOU, the person who knows better, don't speak up and try to help them understand what they are doing wrong, then they will mostly likely never improve, or go on happily oblivious to the fact that they may be screwing over their parties.

When you eventually get that PT that is a waste of resources and reeks of Valkrum, perhaps you'll understand.

Time is my resource, I get mad when people waste it because I don't have much of it. I can understand how a ninja, or other expensive job feels in a bad party, but just because you have an expensive job that doesn't give you the right to just drop a party with a fake DC because it doesn't measure up to your standards.

[Eohmer]

Saying goodbye and abruptly leaving would be no different that saying "You suck" or d/cing outright.

How are they NOT different?

If you mention how you feel about the party, it lets them know where they stand and proceed accordingly. If you fake d/c, you make them wait because they don't know if you're coming back or not, thus wasting THEIR time like they supposedly wasted yours in the time you were with them.

Try to be a little more considerate.

[Spiritbear]

While I can understand wanting to get even with the pt lead, did the other members you let die do anything to deserve it? If a party is pissing you off the answer is not to MPK the party but to indicate your leaving and leave it once the current fight is over. What you did is no better than firing a ranged attack at the nearest boggy and running it to the party in the middle of a fight.
If the pt lead calls me a noob he's lost the courtesy of the 10-15 minute warning before I disband, but mpking the other 4 people was over the top. Its not the fault of other pt members that they are willing to deal with a lower xp party but they all have to wait for weakness to wear off ru-use food items, and if the pt did disband wait for another invite which as a whm is not hard to come by if your a dragoon or dark it may be a different story.

Sorry for lacking on the rest of the infomation. I didn't just let the whole pt die without letting some of them know what I was planning. I talked to everyone, except the leader, about what I was going to do before the fight. Everyone else was going to disband if he didn't listen to me anyways. The only exception is they weren't going to tell anyone they were just going to die, hp and solo. I did a sea to see if we could find another tank but there where none seeking so I just aided in the hastening of the solo play for the rest of the pt. I did try to keep the pt together and so did everyone else.

If I had been PLing the pt I would have let the ldr die a couple of times for being and idiot and kept the rest of the pt alive. But, I wasn't and I'm not one to deal with stupidity. I don't think that people should suffer idiots and rude people. I'm not rude all the time I'm only rude when provoked to be so, and it takes alot most of the time. I deal with stupidity in my own way and sometimes I teach someone that would normally not listen something and make a friend, and sometimes I really piss someone off and make an enemy (which is why SE made /blist). If I had been ldr it would have been a different story as well I would have had him voke pull and just boot him and then worry about finding a tank but I wasn't.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I think that it is important to tell a party why you are leaving no matter what. I also think that it is important to try to nudge the party in the right direction and offer advice.

In a level 60+ PT, I'm not there to babysit people. If you're a naked 75 WHM in a PT, you have no business being there. I don't even think just wearing AF cuts it, either, without the other equipment, you may as well be wearing level 1 RSE.

Going AFK in combat, that's even worse.

Its common sense that you don't do things like that. People shouldn't have to correct others about these things.

Time is my resource, I get mad when people waste it because I don't have much of it. I can understand how a ninja, or other expensive job feels in a bad party, but just because you have an expensive job that doesn't give you the right to just drop a party with a fake DC because it doesn't measure up to your standards.

While you may just be spending time, those jobs are spending time on top of time. The time to acquire the resources x The time spent using it. You might say all jobs are subject to that, but its not by the same degrees of time.

If I'm not seeing good returns on both kinds of time, I'm out whether its by d/c, disbanding outright or saying "Goodbye" when I actully mean something else.

[Akashimo]

I have to agree, it is a waste baby-sitting people who by 60+ should gotten the idea of what equip to wear and how to use it inconjunction to their job. Time on top of time is also an issue. Myself, I normally make a living off what ever drops I can get from EXP and solo. So when I'm wasting ammo/shihei/food/Imperial Standing/even exp from deaths and the return value from the use is drastically less than from getting it in the first place, action must be taken. How extreme? What the situtation calls for. If its very slow pty and another member says @15 mins, I'ma join on that disband train. If its death after death, I'mma get up, say bai and warp out.

[Vyuru]

In a level 60+ PT, I'm not there to babysit people.

Agreed, however I think you have to keep in mind that people who don't even qualify for "newb" status are making it higher and higher these days. Awhile ago, it seemed like Yuhtunga/Altepa levels are the new Valkurms. What may be worse, people are fine with it. Now it seems like the Valkurm mentality has reached the lvl 50s. I've met some really bad, horribly inept players in those level ranges.

I've met ninjas who couldn't tank, pld tanks using AoE staff WS in the middle of a bunch of non aggro linking mobs, such as the 3 Catoplas standing right next to him, and when he wouldn't use an AoE WS he'd pull the bird next to another bird so that they would link, rangers who go out to pull and link/aggro 8 fricking mobs, and then wonder why the blm casts escape rather than sleeping them all, whm who'd rather nuke with banish, or act like a gimped summoner rather than heal, thfs who couldn't SATA to save their life, drks who cut their life to pieces by using a Abs spell, Soul Eater, Last Resort, Berserk, and THEN wonder how in the world they got hate and omg what a crappy tank and whm for letting them die. Oh guess what, they were wearing full plastron armor to boot and didn't bother to take it off, you can imagine how quickly they died. The list goes on, and on, and on, and these are all examples of lvl 60+ parties I've had. The drk was a lvl 75 and that incident was in a brass airtank farming party I was in. Oh, oh, my favorite so far? I had a party, of which 3 of the members were 2 drks and a rdm, we were fighting goblins in bibiki bay, we pull a gobbie blm, might have been hobgoblin, I forget. Anyway, rdm never casts silence on it even after it starts nuking the party, gob tosses out a bomb at full health, drks don't bother with stun or weapon bash, which was important since we had agreed prior that we wanted them to stun those moves, then the gob tosses out a, I think it was Fireaga II or III, rdm doesn't silence or sleep the mob, drks don't stun it, we only lived because almost immediatly after that it did another bomb toss that happened to be a suicide toss after the whm used Benediction.


Not to sound like an old duffer, but dangit back in my day we let people know if they were gimped or not, how they performed, and how they could be better. We were also open to people trying out new subs/equipment, so long as they let us know about it before hand.

While you may just be spending time, those jobs are spending time on top of time. The time to acquire the resources x The time spent using it. You might say all jobs are subject to that, but its not by the same degrees of time.


It is entirely relative to how much time the person spends online, and what they do with that time. If they spend 9/10ths of their time farming to party, and the other 1/10th partying, then yeah, I can understand being upset that your time is being wasted. If you only spend 1/10th of your time farming, and the other 9/10ths partying or doing other things, IMO you don't have as much reason to complain about a bad party as the first person.

As I said before, you will find some people who don't care about improving, but you may still show the light to someone who honestly may not have known better. I think it's fine to leave a party that you don't think is doing well. But I think you owe it to that party to say why you are leaving. I think it is only common courtesy, especially since you are an experianced player and know how to do things better.

[Murphie]

While you may just be spending time, those jobs are spending time on top of time. The time to acquire the resources x The time spent using it. You might say all jobs are subject to that, but its not by the same degrees of time.I'm sorry, but your time is no more important just because you had to spend it earning the gil for consumable resources. Get over yourself. You knew what you were in for when you started to level that job, and if you expect anyone other than you to care about that you're in for a rude awakening.

If I'm not seeing good returns on both kinds of time, I'm out whether its by d/c, disbanding outright or saying "Goodbye" when I actully mean something else.And yet, as we have explained to you several times, one of those methods is worse than the other two. Why? Because in one of them you leave the party hanging. I don't care how bad the party was, or how morally superior you feel to them. The minute you fake a DC instead of just telling them whats up, you lose all moral footing and are the loser in this situation.

[Eohmer]

I wonder what he/she would do in a PT if someone else all of a sudden "d/c'ed"...
... and wait to see if they are coming back.

[Akashimo]

Heh, I think at the repeatative with why, when and how, this is gonna end in a stalemate until someone brings something new to the table. I know that ain't me <.< >.> <.< >.> <.< >.> <.>™ ^^;;
edit: I wonder what he/she would do in a PT if someone else all of a sudden "d/c'ed"...
... and wait to see if they are coming back. Only one way to find out!

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Bottom line, if you want to keep good karma and stay on the moral high ground:

Politely, kindly, inform your part of your discontent. Offer a solution. Be apologetic and kind in your demeanor. If no one is willing to work w/you, if you get insulted, if you get ignored, politely inform the people you are leaving and disband and warp. Do not invite someone to take your place because, if the party is truly bad, its not fair to the unsuspecting seeker to let him have this spot in a terrible party. They would have a better chance of seeking. Let the party do its own job of partying and find their own replacement, that way, their actions are on their own hands.

Now, this being said, alot of ppl are out to get what they want and don't care about anyone else. Its naive to think everyone in the world will work together for a common goal all the time and do it with integrity.

Don't let that bother you when they don't. Karma is a bitch. BELIEVE me. You can't escape sewing bad seeds. You'll always reap what you so, somewhere down the road. This is an unmistakable truth. I know, I've fake d'ced before when I've lost my cool. I've paid for it when I've built my own parties to have someone say they aren't making the xp / hour they wanted and then fake dc. lol

On a side note, while I applaud the JP player base for taking a so-called noble stance of a "team enviornment" initiative and not disbanding unless all disband, I think that idea is also naive. There are -just- going to be some parties that are not fun to play in. It's not fair to you, as a player, to have to deal w/ whole heaping amounts of other pplz "hang-ups and screw-ups" if such gets to a point where it is intolerable. Sure, give ppl one chance, but you know the old saying "screw me once shame on you, screw me twice.... " yeah.

Anyway, if you don't play this game for fun and relaxation, you really need your head examined.

[Akashimo]

Bottom line, if you want to keep good karma and stay on the moral high ground:
Politely, kindly, inform your part of your discontent. Offer a solution. Be apologetic and kind in your demeanor. If no one is willing to work w/you, if you get insulted, if you get ignored, politely inform the people you are leaving and disband and warp.
No offense or anything, but that made me lol'd. Seriously though, I haven't seen anyone act that way since ToAU came out and when tard burns became the norm.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

No offense or anything, but that made me lol'd. Seriously though, I haven't seen anyone act that way since ToAU came out and when tard burns became the norm.

Oh its no problem dude. I've come to accept that the general populace of humanity can be summed up in two phrases:

1.) lack of education, and

2.) lack of empathy

Shouldn't everyone do their best to strive to be unlike both?

You're attitude speaks volumes. ;)

[Akashimo]

Forgot a 3rd, Lack of use of 1 and 2 if those two fail to take effect :)

[Kholdstare]

Bottom line, if you want to keep good karma and stay on the moral high ground:

Politely, kindly, inform your part of your discontent. Offer a solution. Be apologetic and kind in your demeanor. If no one is willing to work w/you, if you get insulted, if you get ignored, politely inform the people you are leaving and disband and warp. Do not invite someone to take your place because, if the party is truly bad, its not fair to the unsuspecting seeker to let him have this spot in a terrible party. They would have a better chance of seeking. Let the party do its own job of partying and find their own replacement, that way, their actions are on their own hands.

Now, this being said, alot of ppl are out to get what they want and don't care about anyone else. Its naive to think everyone in the world will work together for a common goal all the time and do it with integrity.

Don't let that bother you when they don't. Karma is a bitch. BELIEVE me. You can't escape sewing bad seeds. You'll always reap what you so, somewhere down the road. This is an unmistakable truth. I know, I've fake d'ced before when I've lost my cool. I've paid for it when I've built my own parties to have someone say they aren't making the xp / hour they wanted and then fake dc. lol

On a side note, while I applaud the JP player base for taking a so-called noble stance of a "team enviornment" initiative and not disbanding unless all disband, I think that idea is also naive. There are -just- going to be some parties that are not fun to play in. It's not fair to you, as a player, to have to deal w/ whole heaping amounts of other pplz "hang-ups and screw-ups" if such gets to a point where it is intolerable. Sure, give ppl one chance, but you know the old saying "screw me once shame on you, screw me twice.... " yeah.

Anyway, if you don't play this game for fun and relaxation, you really need your head examined.

I completely agree. This is, sadly, why games like WoW are beating FFXI. When you force strangers to work together, it ends in tears.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

When you force strangers to work together, it ends in tears.
Were you a part of one of my "group projects" in college too? ;)

[Karinya]

WoW is beating FFXI because it has a multi-million-dollar marketing blitz behind it and FFXI is practically unmarketed in the US aside from word of mouth. Brand loyalty probably plays a role too - WoW is made by a company that had several previous big-selling games (also heavily marketed) while FFs were always a niche series in the US.

Anyway, who declared this a competition? Both games are hugely successful. The fact that one is more popular doesn't make it better, let alone make other games fail. Some MMOs have failed, but FFXI clearly isn't one of them.


Also, when you don't give players a strong incentive to work together, they don't learn how to work together, and then when they try, they fail. In WoW it's common to see screwups in level 30-40 dungeons that would have gotten you killed in Valkurm. (Instead they get your party killed in [insert high level WoW dungeon here].) Basic party tactics aren't really common until endgame content.

I predict the same for Vanguard. Solo-friendly games lead to a lot of soloing because it's more convenient, which leads to ignorance of party tactics. Then people try to party, screw up, fail, and conclude that partying isn't worthwhile, reinforcing the solo mentality. So the player base fills with ignorant high level n00bs.

[Clever Ninja]

Let's not turn this into another WoW topic please.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

I completely agree. This is, sadly, why games like WoW are beating FFXI. When you force strangers to work together, it ends in tears.

Lol excellent statement

On side note about this type of situation, when you do happen to get strangers together that are pretty savvy, clever, and witty, it really makes for some amazing pts. That's usually where I meet in-game friends.

So when strangers collide and they mesh well, it can work out beautifully and you can meet some great friends.

[Hantz]

C'mon now. I'll just say how I do it, and leave it at that. Any other way is bullcrap.

"Forgive me, but the current grouping is delving into an area of efficiency that is leaning towards 'opposite of good.' The way things are going now may or may not give rise to feelings of self mutilation deep within my heart of hearts, but definately lean toward the former, and not the latter. I'm not saying that most of you don't play like you aren't 'not retarded.' I realize the subs you're using offer a fresh perspective in an environment where concepts like 'optimum performance' and 'useful' may seem stale, but that is not my fault either. Thank you for the multitude of seconds in which you nearly helped me. Adieu~."

Then I realize I'm COR/MNK exclusively using darts for damage while spamming my "Provoke" macro in between "Calls for Help."

[Clever Ninja]

C'mon now. I'll just say how I do it, and leave it at that. Any other way is bullcrap.

"Forgive me, but the current grouping is delving into an area of efficiency that is leaning towards 'opposite of good.' The way things are going now may or may not give rise to feelings of self mutilation deep within my heart of hearts, but definately lean toward the former, and not the latter. I'm not saying that most of you don't play like you aren't 'not retarded.' I realize the subs you're using offer a fresh perspective in an environment where concepts like 'optimum performance' and 'useful' may seem stale, but that is not my fault either. Thank you for the multitude of seconds in which you nearly helped me. Adieu~."

Would you like to buy some Tea and Crumpets +1?

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

C'mon now. I'll just say how I do it, and leave it at that. Any other way is bullcrap.

"Forgive me, but the current grouping is delving into an area of efficiency that is leaning towards 'opposite of good.' The way things are going now may or may not give rise to feelings of self mutilation deep within my heart of hearts, but definately lean toward the former, and not the latter. I'm not saying that most of you don't play like you aren't 'not retarded.' I realize the subs you're using offer a fresh perspective in an environment where concepts like 'optimum performance' and 'useful' may seem stale, but that is not my fault either. Thank you for the multitude of seconds in which you nearly helped me. Adieu~."

Then I realize I'm COR/MNK exclusively using darts for damage while spamming my "Provoke" macro in between "Calls for Help."

Ok, that calls for a roflmywafflecopter.

[Vyuru]

I completely agree. This is, sadly, why games like WoW are beating FFXI. When you force strangers to work together, it ends in tears.

I don't think that's entirely true, I agree with Karinya's post, and I'd also like to add that certain big chain electronic stores such as Best Buy do not even carry FFXI at all, while they have like 5 racks of WoW games/expansions.

I wonder what he/she would do in a PT if someone else all of a sudden "d/c'ed"...
... and wait to see if they are coming back.


Actually I'm a bit curious too, Omgwtfbbqkitten, what do you do when faced with a fake DC'er?

[DakAttack]

It's impossible to really tell unelss they've made their plans public, but I'll always have an awesome excuse just incase anybody asks.

[Renaissance 2K]

What exactly does a fake disconnect accomplish?

You don't fool anyone by red-dotting. You don't fool anyone by not coming back. Unless the wiring in your home was threaded by Thomas Edison himself, you don't blow fuses or screw up your router on a daily basis. This suspicious is all-but-confirmed if you are a support job or a tank. I think I've seen a run-of-the-mill melee disconnect once in my climb from 60-75. I feel like I go through three support jobs per party, however.

Many of them don't even have the decency to give the party a chance. They wait until everyone uses the Runic Portal and disappears.

Or, what about the BRD that didn't like how I was overwriting her half-leveled Baraera spells with my Pantaloon-boosted fully-leveled Barwatera spell for Cursed Sphere? Four rounds of that, and without saying a word, she disappeared and never came back.

People remember these things. The funny thing about FFXI these days is that there are usually hundreds of people seeking at 75 for merits and like six seeking in any other level range. It's quite ridiculous. If you're dedicated to leveling, you're going to see a lot of the same names in the search box. If you invite the same person twice and they disconnect twice, you're going to be very reluctant to invite them again. Screw over enough people and your instant invites may suddenly become a bit more sparse.

It's just avoiding confrontation. You're not fooling anybody, and the people who do their job properly have better memories than the drones that just race to 75 and take no prisoners along the way.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Prime example........

Last night was in a party that started out tremendously well in Caedarva... and then, well... yeah.

Setup: NIN loldrg (ate meat kabobs, had thf sub) DRK MNK SMN RDM.

I asked the pt leader what happened to the person they had before and they said it was a RDM that dc'ed and never came back. (rofl!!!) So I ran my happy azz over to Caedarva becuz I was 13k tnl for 70 and thought I'd just deal w/the pt and any problems it had just to get my level.

Got there, joined up, starts out, everyone is afk for 10mins. Fine, no big deal, they were waiting on a replacement. PT starts up, we immediately start getting ADDS from flys and the occasional Imp that pops up in camp. Np, I'm a RDM, very adept at keeping sleep/grav/bind up. We swing it. Time passes, we're getting ok xp and after 30 mins I find we made 2.5k. Hey np, you know I need LV70 and this pt is here and workin it, fine I'll stay.

Well I inform the pt about resituating camp to keep from getting adds and maybe tossing in a SC for me and the SMN. They comply much to my surprise. We start doing way better. After an hour passes we made 7k the last hour. I was impressed. This goes on for another hour, I get my level, I'm happier than a pig in mud. However, a little after I level, SMN has to go he's got SKY or something. Cool. Well, he goes, we wait around for 15mins looking for more, when a very cool BRD pops that I pt'ed with on a previous night. She's good. We get here, life looks promising again.

Now, we're in phase two of this pt. And when the BRD gets there, the MNK needs to go. lolz Well, ok, so we let him go we wait around for a replacement, 10 mins pass, we find a THF. Fine. NIN can use some hate cuz all those melee kept pulling it off from time to time.

We get the THF, we start, no one discussess a skillchain but just jumps right into killing and we do this for 2 full chains.

Now, I <3 the THF job. I have absolutely nothing against it. But, this particular THF was LV 70 and was not keeping TA on the NIN on a consistent basis, if ever at all. In fact, he was going off the DRG several times and causing me to dump out too much Curing.

Well, it was after the THF joined that we start to have our first round of death since I had been there for over 2 1/2 hours. lol Granted, after we all appreciatively asked the THF if he could keep TA+(insert your ws of choice here) on the NIN to help w/healing since I'm by myself, he says ok NP and we continue.

He does none of it. He's suddenly throwing his WS after someone else uses something to try to SC w/them. Now, I am getting furious at this point because this guy is compromising what we had previously and not trying to really pay attention to anything we're saying. The leader was JP and spoke english and he kept throwing out those little evil monsterous looking emoticons because he was so irritated lol.

Well, we keep on going, now we're starting to get adds alot and w/2 flies, 1 spamming aoe alot, we eventually start getting death on a more regular basis. Twice the NIN had to change to WHM by going back to town and coming out to get us, because no one would accept a Raise 1. haha Well, that's when the NIN decided to leave and gets us another NIN and now this new NIN starts to require alot of curing to keep him alive suddenly. For reason he's taking alot of damage, I check his gear and he is built for DD..... LOL he had no evade equipment at all. He was LV70 however. At this point I was done lol.

I figure, well, maybe someone else can make sense of this pt. I got LV 70 so I accomplished what I wanted and the party was certainly not fun anymore, so I asked a 68 LV RDM who was within everyone else's level and left once he arrived. Because the Imps were spamming Silence a few times, I gave the BRD the rest of my echo drops and she was grateful.

Now, normally if a party really suxx0r bad I won't invite someone in my place. But, I was just frustrated by this point and figured maybe a fresh face should offer some assistance.

So yeah, there's ur typical pt scenario.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Actually I'm a bit curious too, Omgwtfbbqkitten, what do you do when faced with a fake DC'er?

I think there is a distinction that if you stage a d/c because you had an event and knew it was coming, you came to a PT to just leech a little EXP and leave. I've seen people do this to camp HNMs ot just get a Dynamis buffer (cap your dame EXP, you don't need merits right away). It just begs the question why you LFPed to begin with

I've also seen people break PT because they have a static, which I consider doing the same thing. Why EXP with PTs if you have a static? There's no rule that says a static has to have everyone at the same level.

I've looked people up after they did this and railed them for it. But I think these instances are totally different from d/cing out of frustration. If you don't come back for a good, long time, who's to say you fake d/ced save for somone who's totally jaded? Internet connection could have gone down, power could have gone you, personal emergency or something of that nature.

A few month back, I was suffering from a form of seizures where I'd go into a daze (in addition to memory loss and loss of emotional control) and be incable of doing a lot of things, even play games. Video games weren't always the trigger, it could happen anywhere for me at anytime until I had the right medication.

I think I'm entitled to spare a party my life story and take care of myself first. There were instances where I fake d/ced due to that.

You don't fool anyone by red-dotting. You don't fool anyone by not coming back. Unless the wiring in your home was threaded by Thomas Edison himself, you don't blow fuses or screw up your router on a daily basis. This suspicious is all-but-confirmed if you are a support job or a tank.

Prime example of "jaded."

Might apply to me, but its not fair to sterotype others. In any event, no NIN, PLD, WHM, BRD, COR or RDM owes you EXP just because they exist at your level. Think I like being badgered to PT when I'm not seeking?

And is it any less fair to invite a BLM to main heal? People do this, they get invited to play a way they do not wish to. I'll concede a RDM should not main heal if they don't want to, but when you seek without mentioning that fact, its misleading. But if someone gets invited to play what they view as against their true role, they've every right to leave, inflexible though they may be.

[Eohmer]

I think there is a distinction that if you stage a d/c because you had an event and knew it was coming, you came to a PT to just leech a little EXP and leave. I've seen people do this to camp HNMs ot just get a Dynamis buffer (cap your dame EXP, you don't need merits right away). It just begs the question why you LFPed to begin with

Regardless of the situation, it's still rude to do that without a word to the party.

I've had people say, "Guys, I'm really sick right now, so if I DC, then that's why."
Some others would say, "We have a major storm coming through, so if I DC, the power went out."
At one point, *I* told my party that invited me that I had a crappy router at the time, so if I DC, I wasn't bother going to try and come back only to DC again, they understood, and we went on to party for a while. I did after a while, but I know they weren't going to make them wait to wonder if I was coming back. They knew. That's it.

They may be lying or not, who knows, but atleast they were considerate enough to tell us they might unexpectedly leave. That's when we take the opportunity to invite a replacement, instead of sitting on our hands doing nothing wondering... "Hmm, are they coming back? Let's give them 10 more minutes."

[IfritnoItazura]

I think there is a distinction that if you stage a d/c because you had an event and knew it was coming, you came to a PT to just leech a little EXP and leave.

[...]

But I think these instances are totally different from d/cing out of frustration.

If you say so, but how exactly do your party member tell the difference? One is d/c, make them wait; the other is also d/c, make them wait...

A few month back, I was suffering from a form of seizures where I'd go into a daze (in addition to memory loss and loss of emotional control) and be incable of doing a lot of things, even play games. Video games weren't always the trigger, it could happen anywhere for me at anytime until I had the right medication.

I think I'm entitled to spare a party my life story and take care of myself first. There were instances where I fake d/ced due to that.

Sorry to hear about your health problem. =/

Still, isn't there something in auto-translator that says "I don't feel well."? S-E obviously considers one's health to be a legitimate issue, and you should be able to leave party for that reason. (Or any reason, really, as long as it's reasonable.)

[Renaissance 2K]

care of myself first. There were instances where I fake d/ced due to that.
Prime example of "jaded."
Might apply to me, but its not fair to sterotype others. In any event, no NIN, PLD, WHM, BRD, COR or RDM owes you EXP just because they exist at your level. Think I like being badgered to PT when I'm not seeking?
And is it any less fair to invite a BLM to main heal? People do this, they get invited to play a way they do not wish to. I'll concede a RDM should not main heal if they don't want to, but when you seek without mentioning that fact, its misleading. But if someone gets invited to play what they view as against their true role, they've every right to leave, inflexible though they may be.
Doing it once is one thing. Doing it multiple times and expecting to get away with it is something else entirely. I'm saying from my own personal experience that the number of support jobs that disconnected and never came back was exponentially superior to the number of melees that disconnected and never came back. I'm not saying all support jobs do. Hell, I'm a support job and I don't do that.

I've also had a number of RDMs and BRDs that have tried to melee Heraldic Imps in Caedarva Mire through all the Deafening Tantara spam. I'm not saying all of them do it.

During my second Dynamis ever, a storm rolled through my humble suburban town and knocked out power from 8:00pm to 2:00am. It happens. (By the way, if you've ever wanted to add a sauna onto your house, I suggest ripping down some power lines in the middle of a summer heat wave. It's much less expensive.)

During one of my first experience parties in Aht Urghan, my then-five-year-old sister was bouncing a basketball in our family room where my wireless router lives. The ball escaped from her, bounced off the router and knocked off one of its antennae, and then my sister proceeded to rip the DC Adapter out of the wall trying to retrieve her ball. I disconnected, naturally. It happens.

When I finally entered Caedarva Mire range, we invited a RDM to our party. The name of this RDM escapes me. We all used the Runic Portal, and the RDM disconnected without ever coming back. It happens.

After gaining a level, I put my flag up once again and tried to get a party. The setup was similar to the one I had the day before. The leader (different from the previous one) invited the same RDM. We all used the Runic Portal, and the RDM disconnected without ever coming back. Uhhh...

The next day, I sat seeking for a while and decided to see who was in my level range. I see the same RDM, one level higher than he was the day before. I sent him a /tell. "So, something up with your connection? You seem to be disconnecting a lot lately..." No response. Ten minutes later, I was still seeking, and he was in Caedarva Mire. Uhhh...

Again, I'm not saying all high-demand jobs do this, and those that do certainly aren't so obvious about it, but it happens, and not everyone is so innocent about it. Someone in my Garrison linkshell recently made a post on our linkshell website complaining about people leaving early without giving any advance notice. A significant portion of these departures occur immediately after obtaining item, or - in the case that was referenced in this post - immediately after a run that doesn't go so well (not going so well being defined as, for example, somebody mistaking Wave 3 for Wave 4 and failing to pull a mob away from the alliance... 'twas messy). Half of these people are camping an NM or in an EXP party a few minutes after saying "sorry gtg rl stuff". Yes, I'm sure some of those people have real-life things to attend to, but the assumption that it's okay to waste everyone else's (be it 5 people in an EXP party or 17 people in an alliance) time so you can make a clean escape is extremely selfish. Some of these disconnects are also way, way too convenient for their own good. If you were doing Dynamis and one of your RDMs said "sorry my grandma just died gtg" after winning the lot on a Duelist's Chapeau, would you expect to ever see them again?

Am I jaded? Yea, I am. It's this sort of behavior that makes meriting such a chore, and the behavior is going to propagate further if people continue to think that they're getting away with it.

I'm extremely sorry to hear about your own personal health issues, however. That's obviously a very private matter that I wouldn't expect anyone to have to discuss with their party leader to accept an invite.

"Hey, wanna party?"
"Sure, but I should warn you... I have seizures, so if I stop responding for a few minutes, it means I'm passed out by my computer and may have been taken to the hospital."
"...Oh sorry, the leader invited somebody else."
"But your name is yellow. Aren't you the leader?"
"... ... ... BABABOOEY BABABOOEY HOWARD STERN'S PENIS BABABOOEY BABABOOEY!"
";_;"

If one of those impatient support jobs were leveling DRG or PUP or some other less-than-mainstream job, how would they feel if their tank or Refresh or healer decided to disconnect at regular intervals? Think of everyone else's perspective.

[Akashimo]

But isn't reasonable outside the vocabulary of ToAU parties?

[Kholdstare]

I don't think that's entirely true, I agree with Karinya's post, and I'd also like to add that certain big chain electronic stores such as Best Buy do not even carry FFXI at all, while they have like 5 racks of WoW games/expansions.


While I do concede that WoW gets a lot more "press" so to speak, I have heard many complaints about FFXI "forcing people to party." I've had people I know quit FFXI for WoW because "FFXI is just too restrictive." and WoW gives them more freedom.

Yes, comparing FFXI and WoW is like apples and oranges, but WoW's orange makes FFXI's apple look like garbage in the eyes of a lot of people. When exping in FFXI must be done a certain way or you won't get any exp at all, (see: Need 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 support, 3 DD, usually including a BLM. Also, if you are any job that uses a two-handed weapon, or a job with a 1-handed weapon that does not sub NIN, we do not want you.") and WoW and similar games say "You can EXP any way you want, any time you want, without fear of ridicule," it's kinda difficult to resist the allure of that.

And to say that WoW is full of high level n00bs is the biggest example of the pot calling the kettle black that I have seen in a long while. If FFXI's party system prevents high-level n00bs, then being inept, ignorant, arrogant, and flatout stupid is, apparently, not the proper definition of the term "n00b."

But isn't reasonable outside the vocabulary of ToAU parties?
I sometimes think that the only term that IS in their vocabulary is "expendable."

[Murphie]

I don't think any amount of rational discussion on this side of the issue is going to convince BBQ otherwise. Look at all of the unanswered questions, counterpoints, etc.

May as well call this one.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I don't think any amount of rational discussion on this side of the issue is going to convince BBQ otherwise. Look at all of the unanswered questions, counterpoints, etc.

May as well call this one.

Oh yes, because I'm supposed to spend my day replying to every post in the thread. You may have that kind of time on your hands, but not all of us do.

Was it rude? Yes.

Is it my right to leave when I choose? Yes, unless you are paying for my account and my rent and my bills you can't tell me WTF to do.

You sure seemed to think it was OK for any random player or PT to waltz into a BST's camp and bring their EXP to a screeching halt. I believe the rationale was that the BST didn't own the zone. The BST could have been there first and it is rude to crash somone's camp. Yet fake d/c is a horrendous evil that cannot be forgiven because... it can (sometimes) bring a PT's EXP to a screeching halt, correct?

If you say that a BST isn't entitled to an EXP camp because no one is entitled to EXP, you must also concede you are not obligated to stay in an EXP PT as no one is entitled to EXP, regardless of job class. To say otherwise is to contradict yourself.

I'll try to find a way to bow out more politely from now on, but I owe nothing to a PT if they aren't going to play to their level. And I think it would be underhanded to ask someone to take my place if I felt that way about a PT.

[Murphie]

Yawn. Nice attempt at distraction there, however. I don't know what I'm talking about because I have too many posts, or something. Well, whatever, BBQ.

[IfritnoItazura]

I'll try to find a way to bow out more politely from now on

That's all I wanted to hear. ^_^

[BurningPanther]

EDIT: Yarg. Why can't you delete your own posts?

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Oh yes, because I'm supposed to spend my day replying to every post in the thread. You may have that kind of time on your hands, but not all of us do.

Was it rude? Yes.

Is it my right to leave when I choose? Yes, unless you are paying for my account and my rent and my bills you can't tell me WTF to do.
From that perspective, there is no difference between staging a d/c because you're frustrated and leaving the pt after a set time because you need to do sky / capped your exp / caught up to your static / etc.