{White Mage} {WTF are they}?!

[hongman]

I dont know if its just Bahamut, or all sever's, but white mages always seem to be in shortage.

Even more noticeable in the 40+ range, and since lvl 50 I have had maybe 30% of parties that have a white mage. And even then, its always the same one!

This can be seen as good for me - as Red Mage I am getting invites left right and centre, asked by the same people every night, even if I am not lfp or not on RDM.

But, frankly, I am getting sick of main healing. Once in a while fine, backup healing fine, but main healing ALL the time is just getting on my nerves now. Plus my only real sub is BLM, and whilst they all know that, i still get "XXX-na plz"

So, where are all the WHM's? I personally hated playing the job, but its growing on me. I have to lvl it up as a fully lvled sub, as I am suffering becuase of it.

Anyways, just a short blurb. :eek:

[fencingkitty]

Yep, know what you mean. On Alexander I'm a 38 WHM w/a semi-static of linkshell members right now and I typically can't spend 5 minutes outside my party or /anon without getting a party invite. On the other hand, leveling all my other jobs gets painful looking for WHM for the party.

I love my linkshell and our static, but sometimes I feel a little bad having to turn down those party invites and wonder if I'm crazy. ^^;;

It just seems to be that WHMs are high demand I guess.

[hongman]

This goes great while Im lvling my WHM as well, of course, as I get invites so quick. But yeah, frustratin when I end up disbanding a PT and pissin everyone off coz I just cant stand it anymore

[BurningPanther]

It's not just on your servers, it's common among the entire player base. I play RDM as well, and am one of the archaic few who still loathes and resists main healing except(and even during the direst circumstances).

WHMs are in high demand simply for the fact that not many like to play them, and so they are low in number. Add to that the fact that it seems like over 75% or the player population is pure melee, and what you get is anyone with a curative ability being thrust into a main healer role.

[Icemage]

Most established players who have the mindset to play WHM have already reached level 75, so it's only newer players you generally see levelling WHM beyond 37 (and only a small minority of new players want to play WHM, just as it was with the rest of us).


Icemage

[Auron517]

White Mage are still around, but like Icemage said, usually people are just taking it to level 37 and quitting. Loads of players are leveling Red Mage because it's a very sought after job in group settings, specifically merit parties. You'll end up being main healer more often as you get closer to level 75, because in the ToAU mindset, Red Mages are preferred.

White Mage is "overkill" on healing magic, and lacks things like Refresh and Convert that makes Red Mage more desireable. I really don't get many invites unless there're no other mages in my range. SE should do something to give WHM/ a boost to Healing, but that's a completely different topic.

[IfritnoItazura]

SE should do something to give WHM/ a boost to Healing, but that's a completely different topic.

Cure V, Regen II/II, Raise II/III, Protectra III/IV, Shellra III/IV, and Flash... On top of all that, also get merit Regen potency upgrade and Cure cast time reduction, Shellra/Protectra V, and more...

How much more boost to WHM's healing/damage mitigation abilities do you need? :rolleyes:

[Auron517]

I never said White Mage was useless, or had nothing to bring to the table, just that later on, Red Mages are preferred to heal in Exp and Merit groups, because of Refresh and Convert, which is the truth. Cure III from a RDM/WHM will heal for the same amount as WHM/XX (considering that the White Mage doesn't have a Noble's Tunic or Templar's Mace). Which doesn't make sense, if i'm subbing BLM I can't come close to nuking effectively at all.

From my observation, Healing Magic skill really doesn't do anything, besides maybe pushing up your cures 2 or 3 points. In merit groups, everyone is /NIN, so Cure V and Higher Tier Regens take a back seat. Red Mage also has access to Protect IV. You gain experience at such quick rates nowadays, plus with the buff to Raise I, having Raise III isn't as essential, but parties would rather invite a Red Mage and /sea the zone to beg a White Mage to come raise.

According to players I speak with, Protect/Shell V is nothing more than a pretty light show... Are White Mages an asset to exp/merit sessions? Yes. But most NA would still rather grab a Red Mage, a Bard and fill the empty slot with another DPS.

[Kirsteena]

Shellra V is godly tbh. Pro V is bleh.

I'm 65 whm atm, and it is on hold till I get myself a new noble's (pride - I won't level into 68 without it). And I know it is going to be hard to get the higher levels, however, my ls drag any whm 70+ along to merit parties, so just gotta hold out till then! Still, I can spend time fishing/farming while lfp!

[Akashimo]

Uhg, RDM/WHM can heal just... if you already taken whm to 75, it is the LAST thing you want to do in a party. Espically considering refresh/haste cycles, pullers not listening to you with mp and convert not ready, ect. Without the enmity down abilities of Cure V or getting Regen II/II, a AoE of the Pro/Shell 3+ it can be very MP draining trying to do your job right with parties not in your normal pace. (hit 65 last night rdm/whm meleeing and curing, mostly curaga II from bomb tosses unless pld used Rampart.) Even as a DD(Thf or mnk) i'd rather have a whm than another DD in the party if we have a rdm and or brd. Problem with enmity is also cause of lack of Cure V and using 4 which takes hate when 3 isn't enough or using Curaga II. Along with RDM af and most mnd/int/mp gear I've looked at doesn't reduce enmity til the Wise set. RDM was made to be versitle(Look at rdm info at ffxiclopedia.org), but not an easy constant healer with hate problems. (Rarely any thfs anymore pre 75 and most /thf isn't enough to set hate. I have stolen from SATA ws tanks >_>;; )

[Celeal]

It seems to me that all the healers jobs are in shortage v.v

[Akashimo]

Its simple, people just 1, already grinded to 75 on a healer job(s), or two just wanna make big numbers so leave being a healer. Or 3, play the tank then turn to war for exp. Peoples logic with TP burns is imho - tank(or another /nin dd) ddx4 rdm(or smn) brd. With many places to camp with little numbers of the supports, the supports are more likely to get to 75 faster than the DDs they partied with the day before. With the supports getting endgame faster, more dds build up lfp in the same level range. More dds means more TP burns and the cycle continues.

Personally, I think just more new support/heal jobs are to be thought up or find some way of making whm extremely favorable so that this wouldn't be the chain of thought for the norm/majority.
Player1>> get the whm
PartyLead>> No rdm
Player2>> zomg convert and refresh we can make infinite chains!
Player3>> lolwhm
Player1>> Ok...
RDM>> /sigh heal again...

[Karinya]

The basic problem is that not enough players *want* to take a back line role, unless it's nuke-crazy BLM; SE can't change this. You want more healers and support jobs added? We just *had* more healers and support jobs added. Players took one potential healer and turned it into a mediocre DD (BLU) and the support job added at the same time (COR) is, I think, the new rarest job in the game - beating the two previous rarest jobs in the game, BRD and SMN.

Adding more jobs won't help if nobody plays them, or plays them only as DDs. (Which, not so coincidentally, is also what some SMNs want to do more of.)

[Raydeus]

You'll end up being main healer more often as you get closer to level 75, because in the ToAU mindset, Red Mages are preferred.

White Mage is "overkill" on healing magic, and lacks things like Refresh and Convert that makes Red Mage more desireable. I really don't get many invites unless there're no other mages in my range. SE should do something to give WHM/ a boost to Healing, but that's a completely different topic.

Don't generalize, only NAs don't invite WHMs at higher levels, most of my merit parties have WHM in them as a default job.

SE doesn't need to do anything to fix WHM because they don't need to be fixed, it isn't SE's fault NAs don't know how to play or make efficient parties.

You say WHM is overkill, when in fact WHM means endless MP (and pulling) with the right party setups.

[Akashimo]

The fact that people don't play back line jobs is because it doesn't appeal to the masses and few that want to do it along with the few that does it for the merrits of their other 75 jobs and/or getting items for not that job in end game. I agree Blu had potentional, but from my limit experiance (mostly solo) of getting to 23, I can see why it is a DD. Stoneskin before rdm and whm, cocoon and pollen makes it self effectiant. Unless they made a DD job that heals party members at the same time heals party members(Highly unlikely due to over powering and put the rest out of the picture), I don't see really any good solutions so far or viable to appeal to people.

[Akashimo]

Don't generalize, only NAs don't invite WHMs at higher levels, most of my merit parties have WHM in them as a default job.

SE doesn't need to do anything to fix WHM because they don't need to be fixed, it isn't SE's fault NAs don't know how to play or make efficient parties.

You say WHM is overkill, when in fact WHM means endless MP (and pulling) with the right party setups.
This is entirely true, but in most cases, there just isn't enough people willing or actually leveling the jobs to make the right party setups.

[Spiritbear]

Plain and simple people in NA don't want to play whm, they want to be in the fray killing the mobs, but at the same time they want to complain when there are no whms or main healers floating around. When I started the game I hated the idea of sitting in the back of a pt curing everyone (as a matter of fact up until 45ish I would ask the pt if they had a problem with me lvling my club skills just so I could fight too). I didn't want to be the fall guy when something went wrong. I wanted to be the guy killing the mob. When I decided that I was wanted bst more then anything I switched from war to whm so I could go bst/whm later on. I ended up liking whm and stayed with it all the way to 50 then switched to bst. If some of the people that are complaining would stop complaining and go lvl whm for awhile maybe we wouldn't have a shortage of whm.

[Armando]

The fact that people don't play back line jobs is because it doesn't appeal to the masses and few that want to do it along with the few that does it for the merrits of their other 75 jobs and/or getting items for not that job in end game. I agree Blu had potentional, but from my limit experiance (mostly solo) of getting to 23, I can see why it is a DD. Stoneskin before rdm and whm, cocoon and pollen makes it self effectiant. Unless they made a DD job that heals party members at the same time heals party members(Highly unlikely due to over powering and put the rest out of the picture), I don't see really any good solutions so far or viable to appeal to people.With the addition of Wild Carrot, BLU/WHM is so much better off than SMN in terms of curing capabilities if you ask me. Healing Breeze when maxed out is far stronger than Curaga and doesn't cost much more. Wild Carrot is available at 37 and is the equivalent of Cure III (slightly stronger, actually, I think) while costing slightly less. SMNs don't get Cure III until 42. BLU can also Dispel, Silence, AoE sleep, and take advantage of Breath spells for decent damage from the backline. Plus, they have Cocoon and better armor than WHM or SMN for when things get iffy.

I highly disagree that BLU is a mediocre DD. BLUs do good damage and bring so many other things to the table that even if they were a bit lacking in the damage department, inviting one would still be justifiable. However, I do agree that it has lots of potential as a healer job that noone wants to take advantage of. People can justify SMN/WHM, then they sure as hell can justify BLU/WHM.

By the way, Metallic Body sucks. It absorbs like 40 HP.

[Renaissance 2K]

BLU/WHM is a phenomenal main healer if they take off the melee gear and put on some mage gear. Right after BLU got Wild Carrot and raided Yhoator Jungle with a party that I had to argue with for ten minutes to convince them I could heal properly. It was a lot of fun. Pump MND and MP, and you'll be getting a lot of mileage out of Wild Carrot, while still being able to throw in a debuff or Magic Burst when applicable.

RDM and BLU are perfectly capable main healers. With a /WHM subjob, they have 99% of all the tools they need to main heal properly. BLM and SMN are healers out of desperation. They can do it, but it's stressful, it's not particularly easy, and party members have a very hard time recognizing their limitations.

I recently became fascinated with Fast Cast, so I took RDM up to 40. Yes, I did happily main heal on a number of occasions because once you've completed the debuff cycle, there isn't much else to do with yourself until the mob throws out a buff or the melee get ready to skillchain. However, I had to take BLM to 32 beforehand so I could ditch a few equipment pieces I was keeping on hand. Invites were rare with both jobs, so it took a while, but I was appalled when I was invited as BLM to one party in particular and asked to main heal. Why did this upset me so much? The leader was a RDM.

I don't know where so many RDMs get off thinking they're free from the "main heal" card until they reach merit levels, in which case they do whatever they can to shoehorn the WHM out of the party as quickly as possible. RDMs are the second most-capable healer in the game because of the speed at which they get their Cure spells and the arsenal available to them. This becomes even more true after Refresh/Convert. BLMs have no native Cure spells, and SMN restorative abilities effectively take 13 seconds to cast with an additional 4 second cooldown. That's not practical. And relying on Cure until 22, Cure II until 42, and having nothing but Cure III and Curaga II at endgame is absurd - especially with the new phase of "I have a fully-leveled /NIN subjob for show, but I don't actually cast Utsusemi" melee.

I've already taken WHM 75 levels. If I level a job like BLM, I expect to be able to nuke.

[Auron517]

Don't generalize, only NAs don't invite WHMs at higher levels, most of my merit parties have WHM in them as a default job.
SE doesn't need to do anything to fix WHM because they don't need to be fixed, it isn't SE's fault NAs don't know how to play or make efficient parties.
You say WHM is overkill, when in fact WHM means endless MP (and pulling) with the right party setups.

Don't misquote me. I didn't say that White Mage are overkill, I was merely expressing what the mentality is for ToA merit settings.

You also don't have to preach to me about the effectiveness of WHM in a group, I'm well aware of them (And If I was not, my main certainly wouldn't be White Mage).

I already stated, I don't think White Mage is broken in any sense, but it's rather Healing Magic that I take issue with. Red Mage (C- Healing skill) shouldn't be able to heal back the same amount of Hit Points as White Mage (A+ Healing skill), just like on White Mage, with my C Enfeebling skill, I can't land status spells on exp mobs to save my life. That certainly makes sense, doesn't it?

[Mouser]

I've main healed several times as a BLU/WHM in the Mire in the upper 60's with a BRD or RDM in support (auto-refresh by itself doesn't quite cut it). In some ways I prefer it over DDing vs Imps since I get frustrated waiting for overworked RDMs or inattentive WHMs to cast Silena or other status cures. With modest +MND gear and a Light Staff, at 70 Wild Carrot cures 198 HP for 37 MP and Magic Fruit cures 407 for 72 MP. I toss in Diamondhide to pre-heal if we fight flies. Sort of like a SMN/WHM with a tiny MP pool and Cure IV :D

[Shadowneko]

It isn't WHMs I'm having trouble with in the 40s on my server...It's tanks! That's right I can't find any Pallys, Ninjas or even a stray Warrior. I can usually find all the makings of a party but I can't ever find a tank!

[Susurrus]

I have WHM, RDM, and SMN to 75.

Summoner is a joke for cures and has been for any levels recently. I don't see why people think its a good idea to put SMN in the main healer role. Cure III is pathetic, especially when coming from a subjob. About 60 and higher, most times I was in a main healer role as SMN, the party was slow and there were deaths quite a bit just due to the fact spamming Cure III is MP unefficient and I couldn't cast it fast enough to keep people alive. I've even had someone complain to me when they died saying I dind't cure them fast enough and I "obviously" wasn't paying attention when I was spamming cure 3s at them. Summoner can be a good job, but not many people utilize them properly in parties, they are support/damage jobs (the latest SMN update made them MUCH more effective, too). The WHM subjob is good for BACKUP healing, and to assist the main healer, not to BE the main healer.

Red Mage is a decent healer. Can do the job well, but the main problem with them is that Cure IV is fairly hate intensive as it is, and Red Mages don't get very much Enmity- gear. This could cause hate to bounce around. It seems to me Red Mage is better utilized more in the way Bards are used, just perhaps in different areas. I've been in a party as a Red Mage, and we had a White Mage, but I ended up pulling trolls much like you usually see Bard doing it (pull, sleep next to party for them to take down after the current enemy is dead), while keeping Refresh on the White Mage (and the Dark Knight which I think we had at the time), as well as help out with cures and Hastes. The pulls would generally be with enfeebles so the enfeebling was taken care of. This party got excellent exp/limit points, and was fun for me.

White Mage is obviously the best healer. People say Red Mage is good in merit parties for downtime due to refresh and convert, but I beg to differ. One big help is 3x auto-refresh from /SMN, Noble, and Sanction (is usually effecient, even if no refresher, but I usually have a BRD in these parties anyway). Also Cure V is nice because it is low hate, and actually MP efficient if you use most/all of its cure potential, especially with 307 Healing Magic (gear gives +30), Noble, and Apollo Staff. The biggest thing though, is Regen III, I save a LOT of MP by mainly using Regen III (double merited atm helps, too) and only using other cures when necessary.

Personally, I only enjoy main healing on White Mage. I can enjoy the other two jobs, just not in a main healing role.

[Olorin401]

I have WHM, RDM, and SMN to 75.
The biggest thing though, is Regen III, I save a LOT of MP by mainly using Regen III (double merited atm helps, too) and only using other cures when necessary.
It's really amazing to me how many people laugh when I tell them that I have four merits into my Regen potency. Tossing out a Regen III for 24/tick (or even in capped areas Regen for 9 or Regen II for 14) is just insane. Add to that the bonus given by a Cleric's Briault (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Cleric%27s_Briault)....

[Shadowneko]

I have WHM, RDM, and SMN to 75.

Summoner is a joke for cures and has been for any levels recently. I don't see why people think its a good idea to put SMN in the main healer role. Cure III is pathetic, especially when coming from a subjob. About 60 and higher, most times I was in a main healer role as SMN, the party was slow and there were deaths quite a bit just due to the fact spamming Cure III is MP unefficient and I couldn't cast it fast enough to keep people alive. I've even had someone complain to me when they died saying I dind't cure them fast enough and I "obviously" wasn't paying attention when I was spamming cure 3s at them. Summoner can be a good job, but not many people utilize them properly in parties, they are support/damage jobs (the latest SMN update made them MUCH more effective, too). The WHM subjob is good for BACKUP healing, and to assist the main healer, not to BE the main healer.

I keep saying stuff like this but no one listens to me. I only cure people under protest as Summoner and if anyone asks I do not really want to main heal but it seems that people have trapped the job in this role...

[Lmnop]

I know it kinda makes me sound like a dick but...

That whole "I leveled WHM to 75 already, I don't want to main heal on X job too" argument... I don't like it. That's like "I already leveled PLD to 75, I didn't level NIN to tank." Maybe someone will say that's not a fair comparison, considering that NIN's main job is tank now. Ok, let's use WAR then. "I've already leveled PLD to 75, I'm not leveling WAR to tank." Which is stupid, because I would trust that WAR tanking more than a RNG-turned-WAR.

The point is, it's a facet of the RDM job to have the capacity of healing when the need arises. The other jobs with MP pools and /whm can cure too. It may not be the best main healer, but you simply cannot make the blanket statement that you won't heal. Because this game was built to utilize subjobs. To deny that facet of your job is to gimp yourself. WHM is the dedicated healing job, but it's not the only healing job.

[Necropolis]

I agree with Lnmop to an extent, I have leveled whm to 75, and when I play another mage job, I feel like playing other facets of that job. Enfeebling or nuking as a smn, blm, or rdm appels to me more than just main healing once again for 75 more levels.

But I have natural Curative spells with rdm, and have cures from /whm on smn or blm, so I tend use them when needed, but while seeking I'll add comments as to what I will or will not do in a pt. If I don't feel like main healing on smn or rdm that day, I'll add that to my search comment, and vice versa.

While I agree that cures are available to smn blm or rdm (whether naturally for from subjob), a player should beable to explore the other facets of a job if they desire, as long as they are honest from the start of a party what they are willing to do. I've been invited as main healer on rdm when I've already added to my search comment that I wouldn't, so I just inform the party leader, and suggest they find someone more willing to fill that role.

Main healing to me requires an added amount on focus on the game, and some days I just don't have that extra bit, so I advertise myself to fill roles I feel like filling.

[Neomage]

Don't generalize

NAs don't invite WHMs at higher levels

You were saying? :rolleyes:

[Shadowneko]

I know it kinda makes me sound like a dick but...

That whole "I leveled WHM to 75 already, I don't want to main heal on X job too" argument... I don't like it. That's like "I already leveled PLD to 75, I didn't level NIN to tank." Maybe someone will say that's not a fair comparison, considering that NIN's main job is tank now. Ok, let's use WAR then. "I've already leveled PLD to 75, I'm not leveling WAR to tank." Which is stupid, because I would trust that WAR tanking more than a RNG-turned-WAR.

The point is, it's a facet of the RDM job to have the capacity of healing when the need arises. The other jobs with MP pools and /whm can cure too. It may not be the best main healer, but you simply cannot make the blanket statement that you won't heal. Because this game was built to utilize subjobs. To deny that facet of your job is to gimp yourself. WHM is the dedicated healing job, but it's not the only healing job.

Not to get into more of a flame war but I just wana put in my thing "I'm not playing Summoner to be a gimp WHM. I'm playing Sumoner to be just that...A Summoner!"

[Akashimo]

I know it kinda makes me sound like a dick but...

That whole "I leveled WHM to 75 already, I don't want to main heal on X job too" argument... I don't like it. That's like "I already leveled PLD to 75, I didn't level NIN to tank." Maybe someone will say that's not a fair comparison, considering that NIN's main job is tank now. Ok, let's use WAR then. "I've already leveled PLD to 75, I'm not leveling WAR to tank." Which is stupid, because I would trust that WAR tanking more than a RNG-turned-WAR.

The point is, it's a facet of the RDM job to have the capacity of healing when the need arises. The other jobs with MP pools and /whm can cure too. It may not be the best main healer, but you simply cannot make the blanket statement that you won't heal. Because this game was built to utilize subjobs. To deny that facet of your job is to gimp yourself. WHM is the dedicated healing job, but it's not the only healing job.

So in the simplest way even a pld/whm can take up the role of main healing? Or maybe drk/whm? I'm sorry, but the sub does not make the absolute role of the job. It help BUILD the role with gear and food, but doesn't automatically MAKE the role. And to the 75 statements. Lets see you try whm then rdm, you'll likely change your tune. Nin, if i had the moeny, I'd lvl nin/blm to tank, honestly I would. Aside the gil draining to be effective, I love every aspect about it. After nin i would lvl pld to straight tank like any other.

[IfritnoItazura]

SE should do something to give WHM/ a boost to Healing

I already stated, I don't think White Mage is broken in any sense

Um... Which is it? WHM is fine, or they still need "a boost"?



BTW, Raydeus didn't misquote you. I think this was what he was responding to:
later on, Red Mages are preferred to heal in Exp and Merit groups, because of Refresh and Convert, which is the truth.

This is a generalization (according to Raydeus) because WHM is a core job in JP parties--the condition you described is localized to non-JP population, not the overall player community.

Think of it this way: there are probably more JP players than NA players, so not wanting a WHM for main heal in exp or merit party is likely the less common mentality. That is why your statement saying RDM is the preferred main healer is a generalization, and probably an incorrect one, at that.

[Akashimo]

Um... Which is it? WHM is fine, or they still need "a boost"?

I think he ment, WHM is perfect on paper, but not in the eyes of the players who apply it that are in his view NA who prefer RDM over WHM.

[Celeal]

In terms of RDM main heal, I would consider the party setup, camp/mob as a whole:

RDM/WHM (main heal) + BRD/WHM + 4x DD/NIN TP-burn weak VT mobs definitely works.

RDM/WHM (main heal) + another RDM (support) + 4x DD/NIN works too, if the party is willing to work togather. Maybe RDM/WHM (main heal) + COR + 4x DD/NIN is doable (at least on paper).

However, those RDM main heal in TP-burn setup has a limited selection of camp site and mob (in my opinion). If the area is packed with parties, either the party wait for the spawn, or mix in some mobs that are not ideal for TP-burns. In this case, I would say the risk of down-time or death is higher.

I would prefer RDM (support) + WHM (main heal) setup. Not only WHM can Haste, and have more efficient cures, the camp/mob selection of the party is wider. When the area is crowded, the RDM+WHM party has the option to pull tougher mobs to keep the exp chain flowing (the risk of downtime is lower). The party's MP recovery when both RDM and WHM have Refresh at the same time is good too.

[Armando]

So in the simplest way even a pld/whm can take up the role of main healing? Or maybe drk/whm? I'm sorry, but the sub does not make the absolute role of the job. It help BUILD the role with gear and food, but doesn't automatically MAKE the role. And to the 75 statements. Lets see you try whm then rdm, you'll likely change your tune. Nin, if i had the moeny, I'd lvl nin/blm to tank, honestly I would. Aside the gil draining to be effective, I love every aspect about it. After nin i would lvl pld to straight tank like any other.Light Staff + Hospitaler's Earring: Healing Potency +15%
Auto Refresh + Parade Gorget: 2 MP/tick Refresh. Anyone can get those two things. If you have money, throw in a Vermillion Cloak, and that's already 3 MP/tick. In Aht Urhgan, 4 MP/tick. Throw in a RDM and you're looking at a permanent 7 MP/tick.

Would I do it if it was necessary and they gave me the chance? You bet.

[Raydeus]

I already stated, I don't think White Mage is broken in any sense, but it's rather Healing Magic that I take issue with. Red Mage (C- Healing skill) shouldn't be able to heal back the same amount of Hit Points as White Mage (A+ Healing skill), just like on White Mage, with my C Enfeebling skill, I can't land status spells on exp mobs to save my life. That certainly makes sense, doesn't it?

I could agree with this, but it's all because of the soft caps placed on Cure spells, if SE removed caps and/or made the amount of HP recovered completely skill dependant I wouldn't have any problem with it at all. RDM already has native healing skill to begin with.

I'd be sorry for all those solo and party /WHM (like SMN) players out there though, specially since SMN is already very inefficient at healing as it is. :cry:


You were saying? :rolleyes:

(I wasn't saying all NA parties are like that, however all the cases of WHM rejection I've seen are from NA parties... so I guess you are kinda right. :rofl: )

Edit>
Think of it this way: there are probably more JP players than NA players, so not wanting a WHM for main heal in exp or merit party is likely the less common mentality. That is why your statement saying RDM is the preferred main healer is a generalization, and probably an incorrect one, at that.

Yep that's pretty much it. :thumbsup:

[Auron517]

Um... Which is it? WHM is fine, or they still need "a boost"?


I don't think White Mage is broken in any sense, but it's rather Healing Magic that I take issue with. Red Mage (C- Healing skill) shouldn't be able to heal back the same amount of Hit Points as White Mage (A+ Healing skill),

It seems that you missed that part of my post that you just quoted. That is where I have a problem, not White Mage. Please understand this.

Also, I claimed Raydeus was misquoting me because he argued that White Mage wasn't "overkill", which I never acknowledged and then preceeded to inform me on the benefits of of my own job...that's why I said it.

Not saying it was done intentionally, I just wanted to be straight with what I was posting.

[Raydeus]

Also, I claimed Raydeus was misquoting me because he argued that White Mage wasn't "overkill", which I never acknowledged and then preceeded to inform me on the benefits of of my own job...that's why I said it.

No, no, I didn't mean that you thought WHM was overkill, what I meant was not to generalize thinking all other players thought WHM was overkill, simply because that isn't true at all.

Only in NA parties you'll see that happening, and contrary to what you may think NA players seem to be a minority, so they don't really reflect the state of the game and/or the player mentality.


So, I still think SE shouldn't adjust jobs just because some NA don't know how to play with a WHM, JP parties are doing great with them. :biggrin:

[Icemage]

Re: Healing Magic
As a WHM main, I have always found Healing Magic to be amazingly useless. You don't get hit if you're doing your job right, and even when you do, all the Healing Magic skill in the world won't save your spell if you're fighting anything above Toughs.

While WHM doesn't really have too much of a design problem at the moment, Healing Magic itself is horrendously broken and pointless. When a BLM/WHM can cast Cure III with a Light Staff for almost as much as I can as WHM75 aside from my Noble's Tunic's +10% cure potency, there's a problem.

Re: Refusal to play healing on non-WHM jobs.
People need to get their snobbishness and stuff it. Deliberately refusing to heal when on a job that can do so effectively hurts party dynamics and reduces your party's potential. If you like earning less XP overall because of just being stubborn, knock yourself out, but if you do so you've lost the right to complain about why your party is sucking.

I've played WHM, RDM, and BRD to 75. I spent 98% of my time on RDM main healing. It works. I spent 98% of my time on Bard doing backup healing in between songs. It works. Parties just work better with more recovery power, and refusing to do so out of laziness is just not acceptable in my book. If you don't want to do these things, do everyone else a favor and don't play the job.

Re: RDM main healing
Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree and say that Red Mages are amazingly good main healers. As good as WHM? Not always. But better in some respects.

Good red mages have little to no need for rest, and thus can react almost instantly to crisis situations. Convert + Refresh provides the RDM not only with a nearly limitless pool of MP to draw from, but also improves the support power of all other spellcaster jobs in the party. In an XP party, Cure IV's enmity is not an issue except for the first few levels after you gain access to it. Anyone who thinks it is needs to learn what Crow/Raven gear, Blink, and Stoneskin are.


Icemage

[Vyuru]

I agree, whm are damn fine healers, once they get their regen merits from what I hear they become ungodly powerful as a main healer. However their Healing Magic skill has little to no point to it. Do they need a tweak? No, they are really good. Should they get a tweak? Maybe.

Alot of the jobs get it really good at 75 with merits and meritable abilities, the problem for some people is getting there in the first place.

However, on the subject of a job with healing abilities and mana, in regards to Renaissance's post, I agree. A blm should not be asked to main heal when a rdm is in the party. Backup heal? Yes when needed. I've read enough of his posts over on Alla to know that he would have been happy to backup heal, so that was not the issue, which some people seem to be implying in their posts.

but you simply cannot make the blanket statement that you won't heal. Because this game was built to utilize subjobs.

I'm agreeing with you more or less up to this point, but he said that he had to take blm to 32. Now I've lvl'd blm up to 30, and I would NOT even consider main healing a party until level 28 when I get Cure II (blm/rdm, dunno if whm get it sooner) Even then I would be hesistant to main heal until I got Regen, that spell just helps wayyy too much.

I put blm with smn in the main healing category, I'll only ask them to do it as a last ditch effort at getting a healer, and even then I'm probably going to come as drg/mage to help keep things smooth unless we have a ninja tank and are fighting VERY ninja friendly mobs.

[Nazo]

I agree completely about healing magic being useless. Giving us auto-regen is a double insult, being worse than useless. If I'm doing a good job I don't get hit, worse it breaks medicine rings latent.
Personally as a whm I'd like to see some kind of ability / trait that gives us better ability to manage our mp (maybe a pray like ability that restores a small amount of mp / hp for the whole party) or some kind of melee useful buff that no-one else has which would give a more 'positive' feel to whm's contribution.
I don't have an issue that people are willing to party without a dedicated healer class, but I do think it sucks that no-one would be willing to party with me without a refresher to back me up, I don't think I should be rendered almost useless because I don't have a 'battery' with me.

[Lmnop]

So in the simplest way even a pld/whm can take up the role of main healing? Or maybe drk/whm? I'm sorry, but the sub does not make the absolute role of the job. It help BUILD the role with gear and food, but doesn't automatically MAKE the role.

hahaha main healer who doesn't give a shit when he gets hate. I'd let it fly. You can play semantics on my post all you want, dude. Should a drk/war be main tank because he has provoke? Maybe the SMN should sub WAR and tank. Maybe if a BLM buys Sniper Rings I'll let him melee and never cast spells just like all those crappy Drks who sit on full mp tanks. While we're at it, I'ma start main healing as war/whm. Sound good?

No. Nins tank because they can /war. Drgs don't typically sub mages for exp parties because they don't need to and because their damage is so much better with a melee sub. So it's obvious that the reason a Blm subs whm is to contribute to the party more than damage. This is made painfully obvious by the fact that the only time I've ever been outparsed by a BLM on all my melee jobs I've taken to 37 was Samurai. And that's because I was waiting on a crappy SC partner and thus limiting myself.

It's funny that I'm picking on BLM in this post, because it was actually the last job in my mind during my last post. Indeed, Vyuru, I never meant to attack Renaissance. When I read his post, I got the idea that it was the RDM being present that ticked him off. Not being asked to main heal. I'm actually thinking mostly of SMNs (even though I agree they're very inefficient at it) and of course, RDMs.

I suppose also, in the back of my mind, I wasn't just attacking main healing. I've long had a beef with non-WHMs never even considering cure spells. My favorite is the nuking Rdm. It never dawns across this character's mind to toss out a cure 3 after a mob WS. Another good one is the BLM that completely forgets that he has -na spells. Seriously, Black mages are stuck doing pretty much nothing for so much of the fight, that they should be the ones with the clearest understanding of the flow of battle and thus, the ones with the greatest knowledge of how to apply their assets. But no, they stand up and cast bignukega III, sit down and go afk.

And to the 75 statements. Lets see you try whm then rdm, you'll likely change your tune. Nin, if i had the moeny, I'd lvl nin/blm to tank, honestly I would. Aside the gil draining to be effective, I love every aspect about it. After nin i would lvl pld to straight tank like any other.

I forgot about this part. I'm not sure I'm making perfect sense of this quote... by "75 statements" I'm going to assume you mean my opinion on leveling whm to 75 and then main healing another job? I'm going to assume so and move onto the next part: "Lets see you try whm then rdm, you'll likely change your tune." ... yeah that means nothing to me. I've leveled 200 levels of DD jobs when the only thing I truely enjoy is tanking. I still need to level Drk and Blu, so I'll be seeing that side of the coin in the future, and i'll play it the best I possibly can. That statement is simply "Ad Hominem." You're attacking me and my experience to disprove my argument. This game isnt' rocket science. I don't need certification and qualification exams to understand how cure macros work.

As for the part about nin/blm and leveling PLD, I guess all I have to tell you is good luck. =) Aside from being expensive, if you're tanking you have to really keep on your toes about not letting shadows drop. It's surprisingly easy to lose your timing because you're casting other spells. But it's pretty kick-ass. I had a nin/blm @61ish doing like 30% more damage than my Warrior. That same party also had a rediculous Ranger who I'm 98% certain was using windower and distance plug-ins as he'd always run to exact spots, and he always knew when to WS to try to land a SC with other people who hadn't even reported their tp. It was a humbling experience to be 3rd place. o.o

[Telera]

As a summoner, I appreciate the people who actually make an effort to let us do something besides be a nurse. Now, lets be clear, I like healing. But there comes a point, especially with certain party/mob set ups that even my Vermy and Light Staff aren't keeping my MP happy enough or keeping the tanks healed enough. I have been in parties with a whm healer and a rdm healer and both do exceptionally better at keeping the party alive than my paltry CureIII spamming. There's been plenty of parties where all I do is cast it back to back until I inevitably pull hate, get nearly gang-raped, then get to do it all over again. There comes a point where that Summoner and that Black Mage cannot and should not be expected to perform healing as efficiently as a job that has *main job* power behind the spell. If only because of access to higher tiers of Regen and Cure that make things more efficient and less hate wobbly in the long run.

However, again, I have no issue with healing. I'll be main if I have to, but it more oft than not past 55 has slowed the party down massively, moreso than if we'd had a whm or rdm. I'd much rather play a support role to a whm, and the parties where I've been able to do that (I spend 2-3 nights w/ the same whm from 57-60) we were both much happier and able to keep the party alive to keep chains flowing. Hastega, Stoneskin, Blink for the party, saves him a ton of MP alone. Free Carby for helping DD when I'm not needed for the previously mentioned spells.

[Renaissance 2K]

I know it kinda makes me sound like a dick but...
That whole "I leveled WHM to 75 already, I don't want to main heal on X job too" argument... I don't like it. That's like "I already leveled PLD to 75, I didn't level NIN to tank." Maybe someone will say that's not a fair comparison, considering that NIN's main job is tank now. Ok, let's use WAR then. "I've already leveled PLD to 75, I'm not leveling WAR to tank." Which is stupid, because I would trust that WAR tanking more than a RNG-turned-WAR.
Actually, it's more like a SAM saying "I already leveled PLD to 75" after being asked to tank. The point is... the job could probably do it reasonably well at certain levels with certain gear, but it's extremely rude of some people that just flat-out expect it.

And to all those people complaining about PLD/WHM in a main healer role, they have Cure IV, Protect IV, and Shell IV; they have access to a lot of MP+ equipment; they're more survivable; and they can semi-easily obtain two pieces of full-time Refresh equipment to stack with native Auto Refresh, Sanction, and whatever other Refresh/Ballad buffs you may be given.

[Raydeus]

PLD doesn't get Shell IV, only III, and doesn't get many of the +hMP gear it would definitely need for the role either. But I would asume a Refresh'd/Ballad'd PLD could do decently well as a main healer.

If I'd like to play the job that way is a different story, but I guess it can be done.


However, without having Convert no one should expect more than Protectra II/Shellra II except for the tank (if any), simply because just getting the MP back from using ProShell IV/III on everyone would be pretty tough to do every 30 minutes.

Even as RDM I try to avoid doing that and I have Convert. :wasted:

[Icemage]

Actually, it's more like a SAM saying "I already leveled PLD to 75" after being asked to tank. The point is... the job could probably do it reasonably well at certain levels with certain gear, but it's extremely rude of some people that just flat-out expect it.
Ninjas weren't designed to tank, but everyone and their brother expects them to.

If the job you are playing is good at a particular role at the level you are at, and you refuse to assume that role when asked to, you are hurting yourself and your party. It's not rude to expect it if it really is an effective use of your job. It's common sense.

And to all those people complaining about PLD/WHM in a main healer role, they have Cure IV, Protect IV, and Shell IV; they have access to a lot of MP+ equipment; they're more survivable; and they can semi-easily obtain two pieces of full-time Refresh equipment to stack with native Auto Refresh, Sanction, and whatever other Refresh/Ballad buffs you may be given.
PLD as a main healer is alright IF you have the MP gear to pull it off. Playing PLD as main healer is akin to playing Galka WHM without Regen spells. Very tricky since you have no access to -enmity gears, but that's not as much of an issue at higher levels when things start dying too fast for enmity to be a concern.


Icemage

[DieselBoy09]

I don't know where to stand on this. I find it hard to locate whms below lvl 35 and then from 35-50 its not to hard.. atleast at the moment. (I know when I level whm, there's always other whm lfp)

[Horus]

Well, I'm a lvl 32 WHM ^.^
Still not sure if I plan to go to 75 with it, I might change to SMN at 37.
Anyway, I still see alot of other WHM's around my lvl and below, but rarely ones above 40 and below 60.

[hongman]

Jesus christ what have I started XD

[IfritnoItazura]

Re: RDM main healing
Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree and say that Red Mages are amazingly good main healers. As good as WHM? Not always. But better in some respects.

Good red mages have little to no need for rest, and thus can react almost instantly to crisis situations. Convert + Refresh provides the RDM not only with a nearly limitless pool of MP to draw from, but also improves the support power of all other spellcaster jobs in the party.

Not sure if you actually mean "no need for rest" instead of "no time for rest" there. >_>

In my experience, RDM works better than WHM as main healer only in very limited circumstances. For example, in BCNM40 "Steamed Sprouts", RDM is better at cure dumping on BRD and staying alive than WHM thanks to Fast Cast and Convert.

Just about everywhere else, though, WHM seems the better healer. The ability to react speedily is predicated more on good player skill than the job itself. (After all, you're the one who alerted me to the fact that a fully merited WHM/RDM with the right gear can toss out cures faster than RDM.) As for MP recovery, while RDM trumps all with Convert, good WHM's in decent exp parties with Refresh, Ballad's, and/or Evoker's Roll simply won't run out of MP that easily--it's just not an issue in the scope of partying.

WHM simply has the better healer tools--as it should be--which make them the better healer, IMO. (I definitely prefer WHM + RDM over RDM x2 in party.)

RDM/WHM is a good enough main healer in many circumstances, of course, with a good backup healer or two. I just wish NA players would be more open minded about leveling WHM and inviting WHM's to exp parties. WHM is an enjoyable job which contributes tremendously to most parties, without the crazy pace of RDM or BRD.

* * *

How does BLU/WHM compare to RDM/WHM for main healing? Who would you folks crown as the "second best"? :biggrin:

* * *

So, healing magic skill is nearly useless. So what? It doesn't get in the way of anything, as far as I can tell, and I certainly hope S-E spends its limited resources on real problems instead.

[Kirsteena]

Well, I'm a lvl 32 WHM ^.^
Still not sure if I plan to go to 75 with it, I might change to SMN at 37.
Anyway, I still see alot of other WHM's around my lvl and below, but rarely ones above 40 and below 60.

Actually I have found there are not a whole lot of people lfp between 40 and 60 anyway. You are often stuck with what you can get at those levels.

[Horus]

Actually I have found there are not a whole lot of people lfp between 40 and 60 anyway. You are often stuck with what you can get at those levels.
I've never been above 40 in FFXI yet so I wouldn't know. I really hope I get a good PT 40-60.

[Akashimo]

To the previous statement with RDM/WHM or any other /whm for main heal, only reason I'm highly against that aside from lvling 75 whm is that 1) i don't ask that of people when I'm a pty leader nor someone to replace me for if i don't expect myself to do it, i won't of others. 2) RDM/WHM is extrememly mp draining with AoE mobs and typically I usually end up as the only mage in these situations with no mp at 4 mins before convert is up inclueding resting as much/whenever possible. 3) For losing -ra/-nas, I can really strech out my mp main healing as rdm/blm or rdm/smn. but still its not enjoyable and sometimes can be hard keeping up the refresh/haste cycle curing to tie in with enfeebling with possibility to use Ramuh's Rolling Thunder and Thunderspark(with lands around 100 dmg considering my smn skill is 94 uncapped subbed). In short, rdm/whm isn't exactly favorable for the mp pool to make up to the purpose of using it. (Conserve MP @.@ {Yes please})

[hongman]

You know, I think I have just been having a big of a crap time with FFXI lately which is why I am moaning so much.

I know Im not the only one, but its hard when I see regular "friends" i see in xp parties at my level out do me again and again, just becuase I cant progress without things like AF and LB, whereas they either alreayd have it or have help readily available.

Whire Mage is growing on me, as for mian healing on RDM...only time can tell, its too early yet to get a good grip of how i feel about that job.

3 weeks in and Im still waiting on ToAU to arrive....once I get that BLU will be leveled as well. Apart from BLM it seems like most Mage jobs are "pushed" into healing just because they "can".

[Mhurron]

The 50's are rough on RDM. I found it did get better after the 60's. Also, things were better when I started to refuse to heal as RDM unless there was a BRD in the party, and stuck to that.

Remember that FFXI is not a race so people leveling past you shouldn't be a big deal. If you can get past the feeling of being left behind because you leveled slower, or chose to do some quest or mission before you leveled past X level or whatnot then you might be less bothered by things.

Also level /WHM since healing as RDM/WHM is much easier.

[hongman]

Thanks Mhurron

I am leveling BLM and WHM to 37 before I start on leveling RDM again now. Its just easier in the long run and after that I can see lots of old gear Iv been hanging onto.

It probably made it worse by me feeling like I couldnt do my job properly in the party, although I DID make it clear /blm was my only available party sub.

Meh, I'm not racing others to Level up to 75, but I am racing myself. I want to be 75 just becuase. ??? Maybe after I have gotten it I will feel much better and relaxed XD

[Aksannyi]

I'm one of those RDMs who will put {Healing Magic} {No thanks.} in my search comment. I loathe main healing. If I get an invite and I'm the only mage, I'll leave. Only ONE TIME did I want to party so badly that I decided main healing would be okay, and I was the party leader. I invited a NIN and BLU friend (Magic Fruit is a nice backup for me!) and three other melees and we owned Colibris all night. Since you can't cast on them anyway without that annoying reflect shit, it worked out well having a melee-burn party and me as RDM/WHM to main heal, and chains were only slightly slowed due to my limited MP.

I even told the NIN that if I get hit because of a curebomb, to let it hit me until he gets his shadows up, because I could take a few hits and I had Auto-Regen as /WHM anyway. I'd rather the NIN didn't voke right away without shadows because that's less MP for me and less hate for him. :) It worked out very well.

[Icemage]

Not sure if you actually mean "no need for rest" instead of "no time for rest" there. >_>

If you're in a situation post-60 when you need to rest on RDM, you either have incorrect party configuration, are overspending MP, or have insufficiently balanced MP/HP for Convert.

In my experience, RDM works better than WHM as main healer only in very limited circumstances. For example, in BCNM40 "Steamed Sprouts", RDM is better at cure dumping on BRD and staying alive than WHM thanks to Fast Cast and Convert.

Just about everywhere else, though, WHM seems the better healer. The ability to react speedily is predicated more on good player skill than the job itself. (After all, you're the one who alerted me to the fact that a fully merited WHM/RDM with the right gear can toss out cures faster than RDM.) As for MP recovery, while RDM trumps all with Convert, good WHM's in decent exp parties with Refresh, Ballad's, and/or Evoker's Roll simply won't run out of MP that easily--it's just not an issue in the scope of partying.

In XP parties 55+, RDM's vastly superior MP recovery trumps WHM's more efficient spellcasting. Without some additional help with cures and one solid source of MP recovery (Balladx2, Refresh, or Evoker's Roll), it's pretty hard to stay afloat on WHM.

At end-game obviously WHM takes the prime healer spot, but there are still times when RDM outperforms, such as in duos. Again, superior MP recovery and better survivability are key factors in some situations.

WHM simply has the better healer tools--as it should be--which make them the better healer, IMO. (I definitely prefer WHM + RDM over RDM x2 in party.)
RDM/WHM is a good enough main healer in many circumstances, of course, with a good backup healer or two. I just wish NA players would be more open minded about leveling WHM and inviting WHM's to exp parties. WHM is an enjoyable job which contributes tremendously to most parties, without the crazy pace of RDM or BRD.

Even in fast parties WHM can contribute by reducing downtime. It's vital to have solid MP support to make such configurations work, however.


How does BLU/WHM compare to RDM/WHM for main healing? Who would you folks crown as the "second best"? :biggrin:

RDM/WHM is better than BLU/WHM in most cases. BLU wins on damage and Diamondhide, but RDM MP flow + Refresh for other members + enfeebling are usually preferable.

So, healing magic skill is nearly useless. So what? It doesn't get in the way of anything, as far as I can tell, and I certainly hope S-E spends its limited resources on real problems instead.
Doesn't get in the way in the least. It's just the most useless skill in the game. I'm not saying it ought to be a priority, but call a spade a spade.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

White Mage is one of those jobs that needs a buff in regards to making it more attractive to play rather than getting a major job-department boost. There isn't really a problem with the job itself... its just BORING.

I say give 'em bows and arrows, be like Rosa >.>b

[Spiritbear]

Like I said before everyone wants to be the one to kill the mob. So why not give whm the ability to attack while healing if they want to. Something along the lines of they don't give the mob tp for the damage they inflict as long as it is done by a staff or club.

I don't know what to do to make it more appealing for everyone else. I personally like playing as whm, but I had to take a break so I could go and kill the mobs as my bst. I'm thinking about taking a break from bst to lvl pld again. Just because I like to tank and I like the job. I would rather a pld for a tank over a nin anyday.

Sorry I went a bit off topic. I just think that if SE would make whm a little more active in the killing of the mobs more people would play as whm. Just my .02 though.

[Clever Ninja]

Just make Divine Magic worth casting in parties as an alternative, cause god only knows people don't take that seriously. If WHM had more of a DD role to do on top of healing then people wouldn't find it AS boring. Just give WHM a level 40+ Job Trait that greatly lowers threat caused by Divine Magic so they don't grab larger amounts of aggro on top of healing aggro and, IMO, it'd be abit better.

[Theyaden]

Like I said before everyone wants to be the one to kill the mob. So why not give whm the ability to attack while healing if they want to. Something along the lines of they don't give the mob tp for the damage they inflict as long as it is done by a staff or club.

I don't know what to do to make it more appealing for everyone else. I personally like playing as whm, but I had to take a break so I could go and kill the mobs as my bst. I'm thinking about taking a break from bst to lvl pld again. Just because I like to tank and I like the job. I would rather a pld for a tank over a nin anyday.

Sorry I went a bit off topic. I just think that if SE would make whm a little more active in the killing of the mobs more people would play as whm. Just my .02 though.

Personally as a whm I'm perfectly happy keeping the party hasted, regened, erased, poisonaed, paralynaed, barelementraed, exc without tempting me into AOE knockout range, but I enjoy the role of keeping everyone else functional. Personally I wish whm's got a mp refresh instead of regen or better yet a conserve mp trait (like the blm's) that procs for healing magic to make the mana stretch longer. Also I shudder to think of the additional whm's that won't /heal because they want to wack the mob even with multiple pt members asking them to stop meleing. (whm knows being the only healer around they won't get kicked so ignores the others.)
Fighting melee can be fun, but it's a role best left to melee character. (I work on thief when I wish to inflict damage and whm when I wish to repair it).

[IfritnoItazura]

In XP parties 55+, RDM's vastly superior MP recovery trumps WHM's more efficient spellcasting. Without some additional help with cures and one solid source of MP recovery (Balladx2, Refresh, or Evoker's Roll), it's pretty hard to stay afloat on WHM.

Err... I haven't seen a single exp party post 45 without a refresher of some sort? My understanding is that even merit parties have refreshers, NA or JP alike.

If the comparison must be made between RDM/WHM with self-refresh and WHM w/out any refresh, sure, RDM wins. Not sure why you want to compare one healer with refresh and one without, though.

[Murphie]

I think his point was that a RDM comes with built-in refresh, whereas a WHM obviously doesn't. So a RDM/WHM can do what a WHM can do but without having to have another person there for refresh-y goodness.

[IfritnoItazura]

I understand that, but it's still unsatisfying to take WHM out of its usual environment (i.e. with refresh), then compare its ability to heal with that a RDM.

[Karinya]

If you're looking at it from the point of view of a party that doesn't have any healer yet, then taking the RDM and not the WHM is better than taking the WHM and not the RDM, and I think that was his point.

However, taking both is almost always even better.

[Darkages]

im a level 50 whm...even tho ive been playing for about 3 years but the thing is i can be in partys with my whm and i still get party invites its kinda werid tho..and reallly annoying.....
ps.the reason ive been playing for 3 years and dont have it to 75 is bc i have whm blm smn and drg all around 45-50 area its quiet fun in balista with all those jobs too

[Spiritbear]

Personally as a whm I'm perfectly happy keeping the party hasted, regened, erased, poisonaed, paralynaed, barelementraed, exc without tempting me into AOE knockout range, but I enjoy the role of keeping everyone else functional. Personally I wish whm's got a mp refresh instead of regen or better yet a conserve mp trait (like the blm's) that procs for healing magic to make the mana stretch longer. Also I shudder to think of the additional whm's that won't /heal because they want to wack the mob even with multiple pt members asking them to stop meleing. (whm knows being the only healer around they won't get kicked so ignores the others.)
Fighting melee can be fun, but it's a role best left to melee character. (I work on thief when I wish to inflict damage and whm when I wish to repair it).

You are more of a well rounded player when it comes to jobs like alot of the older players are and very few of the newer ones. Most of the new players try FFXI out on their way to play WoW. They are the ones that want the exp to come rolling in easily and to kill everything themselves. That is why I say that everyone wants to be the one to kill the mob. Not because I want to all the time but because that is why most of the newbs on the game end up picking dd jobs over support jobs. I would say 90-95% of the new players would rather play dd jobs over tank and healer.

[Karinya]

It's not just the new players, it's always been that way. That's why we had a DD excess in the first place. I don't think the number of DD-only players entering the game has changed much - but some of the old DD-only players have left out of frustration with the constant excess of DDs (that they themselves collectively created), so a higher percentage of old players *that are still around* are players willing to play some non-DD roles.

And then a lot of times the players who level one DD job to 75 decide to start their second job and... it's another DD job. BLM + WAR or MNK, RNG + WAR, etc. (Don't get me started on DD-only WARs...) Occasionally someone who started as DD will take NIN for their second job - hardly ever a mage (except DDBLU) or support. So if someone who has already been a healer and a tank decides to try DD, then they just contribute further to the DD excess, because the people who went DD first aren't usually going to reciprocate.

[Akashimo]

Only thing about WHM DDing is that it isn't exactly viable or effect til the mid 60's when they can get Hexa Strike then 70's for Black Halo to open/close a Light SC. Even then, only a few maces/clubs are good for hexa and main healing, such as Reserv Captian's Mace and the Bastok equialant, both offering hMP+7, only 3 less than dark, but able to keep some TP when they need to heal. Aside, Moonlight/Starlight doesn't return enough mp to be a viable option pre Hexa. <_< >_>; And if anyone remembers an old thread I had started *coughwhmscythecough* we could toss that into the possibilities. Or just give whm a new weapon class all their own like Great Hammers, early levels ws provides MP/HP recovery to pty greater than moonlight/starlight, higher lvls, SC able for Distortion and Light to work with the popular DD jobs. But comes the issue with healing/tp maybe provide that class of weapons a greater hMP than Dark Staff, with some Store TP traits on it. Who knows.

[Kholdstare]

It's not just the new players, it's always been that way. That's why we had a DD excess in the first place. I don't think the number of DD-only players entering the game has changed much - but some of the old DD-only players have left out of frustration with the constant excess of DDs (that they themselves collectively created), so a higher percentage of old players *that are still around* are players willing to play some non-DD roles.

And then a lot of times the players who level one DD job to 75 decide to start their second job and... it's another DD job. BLM + WAR or MNK, RNG + WAR, etc. (Don't get me started on DD-only WARs...) Occasionally someone who started as DD will take NIN for their second job - hardly ever a mage (except DDBLU) or support. So if someone who has already been a healer and a tank decides to try DD, then they just contribute further to the DD excess, because the people who went DD first aren't usually going to reciprocate.

This pretty much sums it up, which is why it made me so glad to see two RL friends start out as an RDM and WHM.

Although, there is the one group of people you forgot to mention: The people who take an in-demand job to 75 as fast as possible to get both financial and merit-based backing for less liked jobs (i.e. someone taking BRD to 75 for merits on DRK) So these people not only take a potential buffer/healer/tank off the market, but do it so they can add another DD.

Personally, I can't see why people blame those wanting to DD. DDing is fun. It's perfectly normal to want to watch yourself kill the mob and bust off visually awesome spells as opposed to watching HP bars, Shadows or "Soandso's Refresh/Haste/Ballad/Etc. wears off" lines. Don't blame WoW for people wanting to kill things in this game, blame Tanking, Healing, and support for being boring as sin. You need to focus on something very uninteresting (I.e. lines of text) for long periods of time. You need the patience of a saint or the self-torturing of a masochist to play some of those jobs.

[Auron517]

Don't blame WoW for people wanting to kill things in this game, blame Tanking, Healing, and support for being boring as sin. You need to focus on something very uninteresting (I.e. lines of text) for long periods of time. You need the patience of a saint or the self-torturing of a masochist to play some of those jobs.

I dunno Khold...I really think the "boredom" of a job is in the eyes of the player. Many people claim to hate White Mage becaue it's dull and monotonous, but I LOVE it. Squinting at HP Bars, keeping up with Haste and Regen cycles, watching those pretty lights go off when I toss out a Cure, then resting while roaming the chat log looking for more reasons to cast additional Cures is just what I enjoy.

On the contrary, I find popular DPS jobs known for their ability to put out numbers (i.e. Black Mage, and Monk) to be extremely boring, but many people would disagree with me, and that's okay...we all have different preferences. That being said, I don't think there's anything SE could do to make back line jobs more interesting for the players that just want to be doing damage in the front...they'll still find reasons to complain about them.

[Akashimo]

...we all have different preferences. That being said, I don't think there's anything SE could do to make back line jobs more interesting for the players that just want to be doing damage in the front...they'll still find reasons to complain about them.
Which I believe was the case in different views from previous nerfs and "nerfs". People and perception on jobs are very very feckle, so what might attract them with any new changes to make people wanna play whm could not meet expectations and they'll just go back to DDing.

[Karinya]

If you often find DD jobs boring, I suggest trying DRG/SAM. You have a lot to play with, especially after 60, and oh yeah, you also outparse pretty much everyone without Ridill.

Then again, maybe I shouldn't make that suggestion, because if you take it I'll be contributing even more to the excess of DDs on your server.

But I think it can be fun to be a DD, as long as it isn't one of those "engage, go get a drink, come back when it's time to WS" jobs.

[Akashimo]

But I think it can be fun to be a DD, as long as it isn't one of those "engage, go get a drink, come back when it's time to WS" jobs.
Which is why I just love jobs that depend on JA ^^; Go Go Thief power! Can't be lazy with that job, gotta be active =3

[Vyuru]

Well you know, as rdm I really loved healing, buffing, nuking, and enfeebling. What just totally burned me out was when people just spammed me nonstop for refresh, despite my impeccable refresh cycle, or spammed me for spells I did not have access to, I played rdm/blm, so no ~na spells, and no, for the thousandth time I do NOT have access to summon buffs, and for the love of god, if you want Erase ask the whm and not the lvl 42 rdm/blm.

I really liked rdm, I casts the spells that make the mobs go D'oh! :P But my other 5 party members just bugged me too much and sucked the enjoyment out of it for me.

So I guess I'm one of those people who enjoy playing pretty much any job. I like the magic bursting, enfeebling, and all the other stuff mages do, and I like the skillchaining, being a SATA partner, and all the other stuff melee do.

What I don't like are boring jobs with little to do, such as bard in the early levels. I sing two songs for the party, maybe I get to use a threnody or requiem, maybe I get to heal with a paltry mp pool, but not much. Now that I have bard up to 27 I'm enjoying it, +mnd/int songs help rdm, whm, and blm, ballad helps me do more curing, I have the full threnody elemental range now so I can help the mages land spells a little bit better, a whole heckuva lotta fun now.

And for some reason I don't get bugged for songs I don't have or that the party has, it's pretty nice right now at least.

[Murphie]

So I guess I'm one of those people who enjoy playing pretty much any job. I like the magic bursting, enfeebling, and all the other stuff mages do, and I like the skillchaining, being a SATA partner, and all the other stuff melee do.Same. I just get a kick out of doing well at whatever job I happen to be playing, and whatever role I happen to be filling in the party at that time.

[Kholdstare]

I don't think there's anything SE could do to make back line jobs more interesting for the players that just want to be doing damage in the front...they'll still find reasons to complain about them.

One thing I can think of right now that would be make things a bit less monotonous: How about a visual effect when a shadow disappears? Makes Blink Tanking a bit easier to look at, and probably easier to do. Might make NIN tanking just interesting enough to get more people into it.

As for Healers and buffers? Well, I'd suggest an HP bar over their head, but that'd be difficult to implement. Though I don't see why we can't see something like buffs for other players. If I could see an icon on the side that presents someone's buff status (I.e, a small box that shows who has what buffs, or the status of buffs that have been casted by you.) It'd be a lot less taxing than squinting at the text box for those magic words: "So and so's Refresh Effect wears off."

[Akashimo]

One thing I can think of right now that would be make things a bit less monotonous: How about a visual effect when a shadow disappears? Makes Blink Tanking a bit easier to look at, and probably easier to do. Might make NIN tanking just interesting enough to get more people into it.

As for Healers and buffers? Well, I'd suggest an HP bar over their head, but that'd be difficult to implement. Though I don't see why we can't see something like buffs for other players. If I could see an icon on the side that presents someone's buff status (I.e, a small box that shows who has what buffs, or the status of buffs that have been casted by you.) It'd be a lot less taxing than squinting at the text box for those magic words: "So and so's Refresh Effect wears off."
I like, I like the sound of that /clap

[Murphie]

If you filter your chat correctly, there isn't any reason why you should have trouble seeing what buffs wear off and when.

[Vyuru]

It'd be a lot less taxing than squinting at the text box for those magic words: "So and so's Refresh Effect wears off."

Actually, I think I'd favor more chat filter color options. I've got it setup so that it shows green when someone receives a buff/enfeeblement, I'd like to set it so that the text appears in purple or something else just as striking when a buff or enfeeblement wears off.

That way it get's my attention, and I can look just for certain colors of text and ignore everything else.

[Murphie]

More chat filter options would be nice. But the ones we have so far aren't terrible.

[Kholdstare]

If you filter your chat correctly, there isn't any reason why you should have trouble seeing what buffs wear off and when.

My problem isn't seeing it, it's that looking at it is monotonous. It's even MORE monotonous when there's all this action happening RIGHT above it. All these monster getting slaughtered and massive spells being cast, and you CAN'T look at any of it because you're watching HP bars and chat logs? Ick.

[Murphie]

You don't have to stare at the chat log. As I said, if you filter things correctly, there's no reason why you can't easily see when things are wearing, and when spells need to be cast.

[Karinya]

Being able to watch the log and the fight at the same time is something you get used to with experience. Anyway, what's so exciting about watching a monster get hit for 1% of its HP? There's only a few seconds in most fights where something interesting is actually happening on the main screen. Once you've seen all the possible swing animations for every DD in the party, there's really not much more to look at most of the time.

Refresh, though, is easy. Just watch their MP bar for a few seconds and compare the change to what it should be with and without refresh (taking into account auto-refresh and refresh gear, but most people have less than 3 so it shouldn't confuse you).

[Lmnop]

and what if you refuse to filter your chat? >.>

I like knowing what my party is doing. And I like saying "wow, nice Viper Bite." I'm not so selfish that I only care about my damage. Hell, when I SC I care more about the damage of the SC itself than my WS: "aww it got half resisted." Because I'm a geek like that.

I would like some option to "hide" chat. Like... a filter setting that you could toggle off, and when it turns off it'd expose all the other things that happened in the fight in their rightful places. Though honestly, from talking to my WoW friends, their HUD is vastly superior. My friend has a tab for his stuff (i.e. super filtered FFXI) and he has another tab he clicks on to see full battle details.

Oh yeah, white mages... yeah they're cool.

[Aksannyi]

I don't filter out the damage that my party members do, just the damage that they take. I can see that easily enough with their HP/MP bars as it is. The little yellow/orange/red numbers help a bit, too. :)

I also filter out anything that has to do with alliance, NPC, or others. I don't need to see what's going on with the other twelve in the alliance, especially during besieged, and I definitely don't care that Randomnoobhittingabunnyinronfaure hit the Bunny for 12 points of damage. Ever.

It's also sometimes useful to filter /say and /shout while in a party ... 9/10 shouting is just obnoxious people being ... obnoxious.

[Akashimo]

I do admit, I like how WoW has its chat boxes set up, a tab for chatting and another for combat damage. And the fact that the chat logs don't take up your entire bottom portion of the screen, espically with the PS2's resolution x.x
But it is easy to catch what to see without filtering the chat or changing color. Just look for lines that are shorter ^^; easy to spot or lines that end with "wears off" or "no longer *insert status effect*" =3

[Murphie]

and what if you refuse to filter your chat? >.>

I like knowing what my party is doing. And I like saying "wow, nice Viper Bite." I'm not so selfish that I only care about my damage. Hell, when I SC I care more about the damage of the SC itself than my WS: "aww it got half resisted." Because I'm a geek like that.

I would like some option to "hide" chat. Like... a filter setting that you could toggle off, and when it turns off it'd expose all the other things that happened in the fight in their rightful places. Though honestly, from talking to my WoW friends, their HUD is vastly superior. My friend has a tab for his stuff (i.e. super filtered FFXI) and he has another tab he clicks on to see full battle details.

Oh yeah, white mages... yeah they're cool.Then you have no one to blame but yourself if you miss something. But if you don't, then you have no reason to complain in the first place.

[Icemage]

The real problem with WHM has nothing to do with game mechanics or interface. It's player desires. There just aren't a whole lot of people who like to play a job that can't do much of anything offensively.

Unlike Spiritbear, I don't think "every" player is interested in being able to dish out damage. I'm certainly not (see my job levels), but it would be foolish to say that I belong to anything but a small minority of players.

The real problem is that the game mechanics virtually mandate that at least one person in any group of 6 have some support abilities in most instances. For a "standard" XP party consisting of tank, DD x 2, nuker, support, healer, the ratio of people who want to play that healer role is much, much lower than 1 in 6.


Icemage

[Murphie]

The only time I'm worried about how much damage I'm doing is when that's a primary function of my job. As a RDM, WHM or BRD I'm more concerned with buffing everyone else, removing statuses, curing, etc. That's what gets me all fired up.

[Celeal]

For chat filter, I don't filter out much stuff. I am interested to see all the action of my party members and the mob in my log. I only filter out alliance or action done by others outside of party. Even when main tanking as NIN/WAR, I don't have much problem with the log. Actually, it is helpful for me to see the detail of what the party is doing, and I learn a lot from it.

[Murphie]

Of course if you can do your job with no problems without filtering, then by all means. But I brought up filtering because people were mentioning how tough it is to see what's going on in the log.

So, logically YES, filter if you can't always see what's going on, and NO, don't filter if you have no problems with it.

Not really that difficult to figure out.

[Lmnop]

Then you have no one to blame but yourself if you miss something. But if you don't, then you have no reason to complain in the first place.

Now I know that you're not trying to be mean but that looks like you just blamed me for a short coming of the game's design. The fact is, I like to notice things like "that Ranger hasn't actually shot an arrow this entire fight" but it's often hard. Is it so hard to want to know everything? >.>;

[Aksannyi]

things like "that Ranger hasn't actually shot an arrow this entire fight"

I lol'ed so hard that I almost choked on my food. :rofl:

[Murphie]

Now I know that you're not trying to be mean but that looks like you just blamed me for a short coming of the game's design. The fact is, I like to notice things like "that Ranger hasn't actually shot an arrow this entire fight" but it's often hard. Is it so hard to want to know everything? >.>;Of course I'm not blaming you for the shortcomings in the games design. But with the way the game is set up, you can't have it all. You can either easily see what's going on while missing unimportant details, or you can see everything, and have to pay more attention to see the things you need to see. It's a trade off.

[Aksannyi]

Slightly off the "off topic" here, but to answer the OP's question:

They are all on Hades, competing in Lower Jeuno for teleports. I swear there were at least ten WHMs at a time trying to make money taxi-ing today. We were like wolves, salivating at the thought of a shouter wishing to be transported, and when one would shout, we would pounce on him!

Never have I had that much competition for taxis as I did today, and I was not in the mood for much else, so I got even better at speed typing today. :)

*Ahem*

Continue on with what you were discussing.

[Clever Ninja]

Slightly off the "off topic" here, but to answer the OP's question:

They are all on Hades, competing in Lower Jeuno for teleports. I swear there were at least ten WHMs at a time trying to make money taxi-ing today. We were like wolves, salivating at the thought of a shouter wishing to be transported, and when one would shout, we would pounce on him!

Never have I had that much competition for taxis as I did today, and I was not in the mood for much else, so I got even better at speed typing today. :)

*Ahem*

Continue on with what you were discussing.

This is true. Hades has an unimaginable number of WHM's selling tele's in Jueno. I don't think there's EVER been a time that I've gone there and haven't been able to get one. Seriously, even in the morning I get one. You guys need to stop oversaturating the teleportation market >_>.

[Aksannyi]

Lol, just for the record, I don't teleport very often. This is the first time in about a month that I've seriously tried to make money teleporting. But it is getting ridiculous.

[Raydeus]

They are all on Hades, competing in Lower Jeuno for teleports. I swear there were at least ten WHMs at a time trying to make money taxi-ing today. We were like wolves, salivating at the thought of a shouter wishing to be transported, and when one would shout, we would pounce on him!

As long as people doesn't get teles denied to them for carrying Yagudo drinks and stuff...

[hongman]

This is true. Hades has an unimaginable number of WHM's selling tele's in Jueno. I don't think there's EVER been a time that I've gone there and haven't been able to get one. Seriously, even in the morning I get one. You guys need to stop oversaturating the teleportation market >_>.

I think you are right!

the last 3 nights, i have had to shout and shout before getting a tele.

sometimes people not doing taxi-ing offer just becuase they see me shouting for so long!!

[Susurrus]

I think you are right!
the last 3 nights, i have had to shout and shout before getting a tele.
sometimes people not doing taxi-ing offer just becuase they see me shouting for so long!!

If you want it bad enough, increase how much you're willing to pay for it (put it in the shout, if you don't, no wonder you aren't getting teleported). If the price is right, someone will always teleport you.

[Kirsteena]

If you want it bad enough, increase how much you're willing to pay for it (put it in the shout, if you don't, no wonder you aren't getting teleported). If the price is right, someone will always teleport you.

I'll change and teleport if someone is offering 10k...

[hongman]

Thats what I am saying. Normally I can shout for a tele and within 10 seconds someone has sent an invite. My shout is always the same - Tele-XXX Please Assist xK - I normally offer 2-3k for the main 3, and 4-5k for the rest.

During those scarce times, I even offered 5k for Mea/Dem/Holla. Nothing.

But now Iv taken up residence in Garliage Citadel for the foreseeable future so it doesnt matter. ;)