THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

So yeah, on this rampage of leveling lowbie jobs and their respective subs this past week. Originally I decided I wanted to play RNG to 75 and use WAR sub for the most part and NIN for when its needed. However, when I level WAR to 37, I want to use a G.Axe and Sneak Attack at 30 because it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling, so I need to level THF sub up to 20 or something.

Well.... I abhor the dps of daggers and I've played with swords on my RDM til my eyes bleed, literally, and I wanted to do something different and off the wall. SO, I remembed once long ago when I partied in Crawler's Nest at 53 and doing Soldier's in Awl Goggie's room and seeing a THF/MNK in there spamming Raging Fists or something in a TP-Spam party. I took filters off because I normally filter out anyone else's "z0mgzorz i'm keel tha mOnstur wiff mai BEEG DAMAJ!!!!" and found that he was doing at that level like 6-700 when all hits would connect. Sometimes, it would do 4-500 too.

Anyway, I was really impressed by this and thought, "maybe the dps on h2h would be greater than THF's daggers and make it worth it to play." The dmg from ws's looks pretty wicked and it just seems fun to play THF that way instead of the reg THF/NIN "happy-safe-candy land-utsusemi blink puller" version.

Anyway, I checked out THF h2h and then suddenly became dismayed because they have an E rating in it, but I would switch to WAR & NIN at LV60 anyway. But, do you think it would be ok to play THF/MNK and it work out just was well if not better til 60?

I mean, this guy was doing Raging Fists and not missing, but I don't remember checking out his equipment. Anyway, what saith the almighty chorus of roguedom?

[Murphie]

THF/MNK is kickass at least prior to Viper Bite levels. It's actually pretty typical these days. While I'm sure it can work to a certain degree later on, the E rating will become more noticeable.

[Omni]

yea the difference between a Thf's A+ in daggers and its E in h2h is 276 vs 200 (76 skill points) at lv. 75

at 60 the difference is 203 vs 171 (32 skill points).

and at 30, 93 vs 76 (17 skill points)

[Icemage]

THF/MNK is really nice pre-Viper Bite if you've got good gear to make up for the loss of ACC and ATK from somewhat lower skill. The payoff is that Combo just completely dominates all dagger WS until Viper Bite, plus you get the attack speed increase from level 1 Martial Arts. I'm planning on using it to push THF above 30 before switching to /NIN or /WAR and using daggers.


Icemage

[IfritnoItazura]

Hand-to-Hand (E rating) pretty much sucks for THF by late 20's. At level 28, you're looking at a difference between 71 for Hand-to-Hand vs. 87 for dagger, meaning a 16 accuracy differential.

IMO, off-hand dagger and main-hand sword (D; or 76 at Lv.28) on THF/NIN is better after Lv.25, representing a decent compromise between TP gain and powerful SA+WS.

[Zempten]

Not to mention, doesn't hurt to skill up your H2h for Salvage ^ ^

[Omni]

THF/MNK is really nice pre-Viper Bite if you've got good gear to make up for the loss of ACC and ATK from somewhat lower skill. The payoff is that Combo just completely dominates all dagger WS until Viper Bite, plus you get the attack speed increase from level 1 Martial Arts. I'm planning on using it to push THF above 30 before switching to /NIN or /WAR and using daggers.
Icemage

yes, combo alone is definitely better than any dagger ws however, let's not discount the sata-wasp sting and sata-shadowstich. both can do some pretty nice damage when you get to 30 with /ta. however, before 30, i find that sa-combo to be a lot more effective than just an sa-waspsting.

personally i used a combination of dagger, sword and h2h when leveling my thf sub.
ive been leveling my sam sub and recently took it from 27-32. ive had quite a few thfs inthe parties ive been getting and sata waspsting was causing 200-250 dmg on mandys in yhoator. sata-shadowstich was doing anywhere from 150-300 on dhamels in east altep.

h2h might have better numbers when tp'ing though.

[Murphie]

Hand-to-Hand (E rating) pretty much sucks for THF by late 20's. At level 28, you're looking at a difference between 71 for Hand-to-Hand vs. 87 for dagger, meaning a 16 accuracy differential.

IMO, off-hand dagger and main-hand sword (D; or 76 at Lv.28) on THF/NIN is better after Lv.25, representing a decent compromise between TP gain and powerful SA+WS.76 to 71 isn't a big enough skill difference to bother, to be honest. The only reason I'd off hand a dagger at that point is if my dagger skill wasn't up to speed.

You can easily make up the ACC lost from using a lower graded weapon while still putting out excellent damage in that level range.

[Malacite]

Not to discourage you from your fun (this sounds like an awsome idea) but from about 16-20 on, you might want to try /RNG too.

THF has a C rating I believe in Marksmanship and acid bolts are ever so handy. Also, you can still get away with H2H on /RNG. You'll be slower because of the lack of martial arts, but I believe you'll gain more TP per hit too. Oh, and that Acc/Racc +10 is just killer when paired up with the king of lowbie food (Rice Dumplings)

[Cometgreen]

RNG doesn't get the acc bonus until 10, so you'd need to be 20+ to get it when subbed.

[IfritnoItazura]

76 to 71 isn't a big enough skill difference to bother, to be honest. The only reason I'd off hand a dagger at that point is if my dagger skill wasn't up to speed.

You can easily make up the ACC lost from using a lower graded weapon while still putting out excellent damage in that level range.

The idea isn't that one-handed sword is much more accurate than than hand-to-hand; the idea is that to balance the bad accuracy of sword (main-hand) with good accuracy of dagger (off-hand)--especially dagger with accuracy boost like Federation Knife--to reduce the TP gain problem from using a D rating weapon.

BTW, I don't make the suggestion of sword+dagger out of some uninformed bias against Hand-to-Hand Thief--THF/MNK was my first job/support job for a long time, and I SA+Combo'ed my way to late 20's.

I didn't know about sushi or vision ring (or even weapon ranking) when I was leveling my clueless THF/MNK in that range--not even sure if they existed back then. All I knew was that I did great damage with Sneak Attack + Combo--but getting the TP to bust one out was getting harder and harder even though I was loaded with DEX. So, ended up switching to dagger out of sheer frustration with the TP gain on H2H. (I had no idea back then that SA + Fast Blade was as good as Combo, so didn't try that.)

With sushi/Jack-o'-Lantern, Battle Gloves (which I did have), Vision Rings, and whatever else accuracy gear, it may be possible to get a H2H THF/MNK's accuracy high enough to gain TP at a reasonable rate. The question then becomes why bother, when THF/NIN with the same gears and food will do even better with one-handed sword and dagger.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Thanks so much for the responses guys. Ur great.

So, I got THF/MNK to 18 last night in da Dunes. Considering the parties I've gotten have been pretty broken, its hard to tell if I'm getting good, consistent TP on a regular basis. However, it "feels" like I am doing just fine, for instance, when my pt would fight any IT or IT+ Gobs and Pugs, I was able to build up enough tp within, about, I would say a minute and a half. I would get to 100%ish and throw out a ws. At any rate, on those IT or IT+ mobs, I am doing between 100-150 dmg w/SA Combo, so I am rather pleased.

It was kind of funny though, because there was this really arrogant mithra that set up one of my parties named Chest (no idea where the name comes from, but ok). This is on the Gilgamesh server. She kept bullying me for playing THF/MNK at this level and kept trying to tell me to go change my subjob to WAR and get a dagger and that my TP gain was gonna suck and I was not contributing to the party, etc. etc. We butted heads and I refused to change my sub because I was having so much fun watching my Galka kick the crap out of stuff w/combo lol and she then proceeded to start telling me things like "you'd be doing about 152 dmg w/your sa fast blade if you got a sword and war sub." Granted, I hadn't done a WS yet in the pt, it had just started. So, pulled some crabs, built up TP and I had learned Shoulder Tackle at this point. Pulled an IT fly, busted out SA+Shoulder Tackle, and hit it for 101 dmg. Really, I just think its kick ass to see this huge galka shoulder tackling stuff, I wasn't so concerned with the damage. lol Anyway, I hadn't said anything at this point and was really starting to ignore her when she commented that the damage was "ok." Alright, fine, no problem. So, pulled another crab, built up TP, pulled another fly, and this time switched to SA+Combo. I had roughly120%ish tp at this point. War w/a sword/shield pulled of a Burning Blade, then I pulled of Sa+Combo, seeing the opportunity. Well, hit the fly for 154 damage and Fusion for 56. Fly dead. After that, she pretty much left me alone the rest of the night. www

I think its neat when you can play alternate subjobs in this game and do things out of the norm and it make sense. But, the general populace is so scared and confused when it comes to job playing and I think the whole fear about having to wait hours upon hours for a pt scares people into getting into these uniform jobs and subjobs so people can combat against the idea of never getting xp or getting into terrible parties.

Granted, that's why servers are so littered with RDMs NINs and BRDs, which parties that include those jobs are usually legendary. But, as a general rule of thumb and just being kind, people shouldn't berate others for their choices. If those choices are misguided, as in maybe a WHM/DRK joining up to melee in xp, people should politely inform others that its not acceptable. I have no problem with things that are unacceptable to play. But things that can be viable if played right and equipped correctly, regardless if its not a normal job or subjob, should not be given attrocious, opinionated banter. Especially when you end up eating your words, as in the case of my friend Chest.

I've played this game since NA Launch October 2003 and this is my 2nd character. I played a Galka this 2nd time around specifically because I wanted to play Mage characters primarily and enjoy the challenge of playing it with less than impeccable stats. So far, I've loved it and have alot of goals to accomplish alot of things w/the char in game. Its just a shame that more people don't have a willing, light hearted approach to this game. It seems people gravitate towards drama and "what can you do for me?"

[Celeal]

in terms of damage per hit, the gap between Dagger and Sword/H2H is shorten starts at level 28~29 in the Jungles. By the time at level 30, a normal SATA with dagger alone without any WS can do about 200 ~ 300 dmg on those mandies. In those level, there are RSE with STR+, DEX+ and AGI+, better selection of dagger type weapon, higher base skill, etc.

However, in Dunes and Qufim, dagger sux ~(*.*)~

[Murphie]

The idea isn't that one-handed sword is much more accurate than than hand-to-hand; the idea is that to balance the bad accuracy of sword (main-hand) with good accuracy of dagger (off-hand)--especially dagger with accuracy boost like Federation Knife--to reduce the TP gain problem from using a D rating weapon.

Will it really make that much of a difference in the 20s? Because that's what I'm suggesting here. I personally didn't see the appeal to dual wielding during that level range, but you may have had a different experience.

BTW, I don't make the suggestion of sword+dagger out of some uninformed bias against Hand-to-Hand Thief--THF/MNK was my first job/support job for a long time, and I SA+Combo'ed my way to late 20's.I've leveled THF/MNK a few times now (that's the problem with having started over so many times) and I've seriously never had ACC problems. Certainly not enough that I saw the need to sub NIN (especially when I couldn't).

I didn't know about sushi or vision ring (or even weapon ranking) when I was leveling my clueless THF/MNK in that range--not even sure if they existed back then. All I knew was that I did great damage with Sneak Attack + Combo--but getting the TP to bust one out was getting harder and harder even though I was loaded with DEX. So, ended up switching to dagger out of sheer frustration with the TP gain on H2H. (I had no idea back then that SA + Fast Blade was as good as Combo, so didn't try that.)

With sushi/Jack-o'-Lantern, Battle Gloves (which I did have), Vision Rings, and whatever else accuracy gear, it may be possible to get a H2H THF/MNK's accuracy high enough to gain TP at a reasonable rate. The question then becomes why bother, when THF/NIN with the same gears and food will do even better with one-handed sword and dagger.I doubt you'd even need Sushi at that level range. Stick with Rice Dumplings or Jack-O-Lanterns, a Vision/Mighty combo and Battle Gloves, and you really shouldn't have any problems whatsoever.

Again, this is just pre 30ish. Once you reach VB levels, I don't want to see any more Cesti.

[Armando]

Warning: Long-ass post. In the time it took me to look everything up and crunch the numbers, one or two people probably posted ahead of me. Anyways, here's my take on it...

The problem with daggers (at this level) is that their DMG/sec is abysmally low. I know I've said it before, but weapons are about DMG/sec first and foremost; everything else is secondary and is weighted against that. When comparing two weapons, you should compare the percentage difference between their DMG/secs, then try to judge whether the "lesser" weapon's stats can make up for such a difference in damage over time on normal hits.

Let's see, at Level 18 your options, within reasonable availability, are...

Baselard:
DMG: 08 | Delay: 186 | DMG/sec: 2.58
HQ version not considered due to rarity.

Flame Sword:
DMG: 16 | Delay: 218 | DMG/sec: 4.40
Attack -8, Accuracy -8 compared to daggers.

H2H base DMG (@46 skill): 8
H2H Delay @MA1: 400
Republic Knuckles:
DMG: 14 | Delay: 476 | DMG/sec (per hand): 3.53
Attack -8, Accuracy -9 compared to daggers (+stats already taken into account.)

The winner is Flame Sword. -8 Acc/Atk can be painful, but not only does it boast stronger WS than daggers, it has 171% the Baselard's DMG/sec. There's just no way that +8 Acc/Attack can make up for 71% more damage over time on the Flame Sword. H2H wins in WS damage, but the fact that Flame Sword has 125% more DMG/sec makes me question its ability to come out on top for overall damage. Still, if you need Fusion, it's an option. Without Martial Arts, your Delay shoots up to 480+76, rendering your DMG/sec ridiculously low.

You won't see a new, better, purchasable sword 'til Gladius/Gladiator at 27, which only has 4.47/4.58 DMG/sec. On the other hand (no pun intended...ok, just a bit) H2H doesn't see too much improvement during that level stretch, either. Daggers are still seriously trailing behind in DMG/sec 'til 24, but then pick up significantly at 25 with Federation Knife (DMG/sec 4.22, Acc+2, Attack+5.) Add on +25% damage from hitting piercing-weak mandies, and you're golden.

Personally, I'd say THF/WAR or /MNK with a Flame Sword would be best from 18-19, THF/RNG or THF/NIN with Flame Swords from 20-24, and THF/RNG or THF/NIN with Federation Knives from 25-29. At 30, as you all know, Berserk becomes available on /WAR.

[Murphie]

I'm glad you folks take the time to do the math, because I just can't be bothered. Interesting info about the swords, Armando, and definitely food for thought.

[Armando]

No problem. It's what I do, lol.

[Malacite]

Or if you want to spend some money you can invest in acid bolts and sub RNG when you hit 20. Before that, yeah I'd have to say /MNK is best too. Boost + SA Fast Blade ftw ^^b

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Thanks Armando.

I have a question about /nin pre 50 and dual wielding I've never been able to get answered it seems.

Is it true that dual wielding pre-50 is actually a worse choice than another sub when trying to consider tp gain or speed of attacks? I've always been told by friends "whatever you do, don't sub nin pre-50." I don't know what that means really.

So, if you say THF/NIN with 2 Flame swords from 20-24 is an excellent option, wouldn't DW gimp you as a /NIN at that level?

[Malacite]

Eh, it depends. DWI is only a -10% reduction in delay. THF is one of the few jobs that can really get away with subbing NIN early on since it's one of your best sub job options. (if not THE best)

I'd actually recommend main handing a Sword and off-handing a dagger to keep dagger skilled up, since you don't want to hit lv 33 and not be able to switch over for viper bite. NIN sub is mainly to survive pulling pre-50 via shadows. The benefits of DW are mimimal until at least the 40's when you can DW your AF knife and Calvey's Dagger (sp? It's something like +5 DEX and +2 AGI altogether).

In all seriousness I highly recommend subbing RNG if you can. At level 20 you'll get the +10 accuracy bonus (this applies to melee and ranged attacks), ranged weapon skills, and sharp shot. This is all very helpful for landing acid bolts, which are a huge help in EXP, and in the jungles and garlaige you'll be fighting enemies that are weak to piercing.

Take into account that ranged attacks also scale in damage at half the rate melee does, and you can do some nice damage and gain fast TP if you want to cough up the gil. Besides, THF has an A+ evasion rating. Just swap in some AGI/Evasion gear when pulling and you really shouldn't take much of a beating on your way back to camp.

[Icemage]

When using certain weaponskills, such as Fast Blade, Dual Wield also tacks on an additional hit, so that's an additional perk. THF/NIN is totally viable at 20+, and becomes more so at 24 (Utsusemi).


Icemage

[Armando]

What they said. It's not so much that it's bad, just that the loss of Berserk can be staggering, and before Dual Wield I is 10% less Delay (doesn't increase TP gain.) But we're talking pre-30, so it's not bad from 20 to 30. I'd prefer /RNG if anything simply because landing Acid Bolts is one of the biggest favors you can do to the party as a whole, and /RNG facilitates that while also improving your melee damage, but if you /NIN levelled already and not /RNG, don't sweat it. Also, like Icemage said, DW does add an extra hit to WS (with your offhanded weapon) so having that second sword in the offhand means bigger SA Fast Blades.

Even post-50 /NIN isn't as good as /WAR in terms of damage. Sure, Dual Wield II means 15% less Delay as opposed to just 10%, but at 50 /WAR gets Double Attack which means 10% more attacks and can proc on WS, on top of all the perks of having Berserk.

[Vyuru]

in terms of damage per hit, the gap between Dagger and Sword/H2H is shorten starts at level 28~29 in the Jungles.

Well, you tend to fight mainly mandies in that level range right? Aren't they resistant to blunt damage? I'm wondering if you might see better damage on say, a goblin or something.

[Armando]

They're not resistant to blunt. Actually, I can't think of any mobs off the top of my head resistant to blunt damage. The effectiveness of daggers on mandies should be due to a big stat difference (skill + stats on the Federation Daggers) , decent DMG/sec, plus a 25% damage bonus to everything you do because they're piercing-weak.

[Malacite]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Crabs are resistant to blunt, along with a few other mob families.

[Armando]

95% sure that's a myth, but I could test it.

[Vyuru]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Crabs are resistant to blunt, along with a few other mob families.

I've only heard that plant type mobs were weak to H2H, I think Crabs just have insane amounts of +def/vit.

As far as other mobs though, I dunno, I've never noticed a monk's damage being reduced on any particular type of mob.

[Icemage]

Crabs aren't weak or strong to anything. They're just Paladin-type enemies, with high DEF and VIT (and with MP you can Aspir). That high VIT is why H2H doesn't seem to work so well on them, since the damage calculation from H2H is a comparison of attacker STR vs. defender VIT.


Icemage

[Omni]

they need to make a show called Mythbusters: FFXI edition.

[Vyuru]

Heh, I can see it now...

Today on Mythbusters: FFXI,

Do Mithra really have fur? Our specialists had to travel far and wide to conduct extensive research on the subject. *scene flashes to Purogonogo Isle and a bunch of bikini clad Mithra*

Find out the conclusion at the end of the show after we debunk the age old question, who is the best dancer, subligar clad Galka dancers or Tarutaru dancers.

[Omni]

who is the best dancer, subligar clad Galka dancers or Tarutaru dancers.

this is not a myth. it is taru taru w/o a doubt.

i was more thinking of stuff like...

Does CHR affect provoke?

or even a funnier one, i heard some guy in my ls ranting about some crap he read on allakashitter... some thing like if you have dark energy + millionaries desk it gives you th.

i almost couldnt contain myself. then he said there were tests done on this on alla.

i almost couldnt contain myself again.

dont know why he's in my ls though... >.> /glares at officers.

where do people come up with this stuff?:wtf:

[Armando]

I remember when BLU came out and everyone was saying CHR definetely affected physical blue magic accuracy.

Have you ever wondered how Mithra reproduce? Supposedly there's male Mithra, just exceedingly rare; however, the game lore also states they're not allowed to leave Kazham. Yet the Mithra population is plentiful, and there are Mithra kittens in every nature. If they're getting laid by other races, wouldn't the children look at least slightly different? And then there's the fact that a surprisingly high ammount of FFXI h-doujins feature Mithra dickgirls. Makes you wonder.

[Lmnop]

And then there's the fact that a surprisingly high ammount of FFXI h-doujins feature Mithra dickgirls. Makes you wonder.

You just had to say it, didn't you? Nothing ruins a perfect lesbian sequence better. Ick.

Moving on... Boost + WS is a half-powered Berserk (+12.5% attack according to FFXIclopedia).

Thf/nin with sword main/dagger offhand is very nice. It may not be ideal DPS, but it certainly gives you some consistency. Through the 20s, there's a plethora of dagger/knife choices with great stat boosts. Of course, the bastok ones suck. Sword main (I used Small Sword since I thought I'd get the same SA damage with slightly higher accuracy -- I had spent a million and didn't want to waste another cent on the HQ flame sword thingy that never existed when I wanted it) with the Federation Knife offhand is wonderful. The accuracy and attack is of course great for the dagger DoT, but it also helps fill the hole left by your D rank sword. The other great thing about this combo was that it made me able to solo ~40% of a Goblin Smithy when i was 25 or 26. :D After my SA Fast blade, I blink tanked him 'til bad luck came and I had to zone. I used Thf/nin mostly through Qufim levels (though I beat the shit out of beetles in Saur[tab key] first 'cuz that camp rocks). and 1-2 kazham before falling back into thf/mnk.

Baghnakhs +1 were great. Armando's prolly right and I prolly woulda been better off single-wielding Sword but... Gosh SA Combo is nice.

Some random things that I couldn't find a place for in that big paragraph above:
I didn't replace that level 25 Federation Knife 'til Federation Kukri @34. Though I did use an Archer's knife offhand levels 30-33. The moment I learned VB, I was /war.

I never ate sushi 'til 30, though I experimented with a lot of food. My acc was mostly unchanging.

I shot Acid bolts a lot w/out /rng. The acc sucks but 2-3 tries/mob with ~40% acc means many wouldn't have defense down for opening SA(TA), but they would usually get tagged before the mob was so weak that it wasn't worth it.

[Malacite]

ou just had to say it, didn't you? Nothing ruins a perfect lesbian sequence better. Ick.

So true, what the hell is up with that @ . @;;;


As for the issue of fur, there's at least one NPC in windurst that confirms this, they do indeed have fur <(^-^)> /hurray

[W.o.t.W.]

Perhaps mithra genes are evolutionarilly(??) dominant. That is to say, to allow Mithra to cross breed, the genes that create a Mithra-F supercede those of, say, an Elvaan-M in a Punett Square. This developement evolved as the mithra ventured into Windurst and whatnot.

...Or that's an excuse, and Mithra REALLY reproduce in some hot lesbian fashion. Excellent! (air-guitar sounds)

[Armando]

You just had to say it, didn't you? Nothing ruins a perfect lesbian sequence better. Ick.So true, what the hell is up with that @ . @;;;We'll have to agree to disagree on this one :3 As for the fur thing, yeah, I think I read something like that.Perhaps mithra genes are evolutionarilly(??) dominant. That is to say, to allow Mithra to cross breed, the genes that create a Mithra-F supercede those of, say, an Elvaan-M in a Punett Square. This developement evolved as the mithra ventured into Windurst and whatnot.

...Or that's an excuse, and Mithra REALLY reproduce in some hot lesbian fashion. Excellent! (air-guitar sounds)Both theories are interesting, but I think I prefer the lesbian sex one. I mean, if lizards can do it, so can catwomen, right? Right?I shot Acid bolts a lot w/out /rng. The acc sucks but 2-3 tries/mob with ~40% acc means many wouldn't have defense down for opening SA(TA), but they would usually get tagged before the mob was so weak that it wasn't worth it.Oh and this is quoted for truth. I don't care if it takes me four shots to do it, sticking that Acid Bolt is soooooooo worth it. -12.5% Defense down just makes me go "<3 <3 <3 <3 <3."

Also. In the freak chance your party is fighting Wendigoes in Qufim, THF/MNK is really awesome. I mean, it used to be a stupid idea, but now that Blue Mage exists, with Bludgeon and Healing Breeze, it doesn't seem that stupid anymore. BLU/WAR BLU/NIN THF/MNK could probably rip them apart faster than a Kenyan mangrove crab rips tanks apart. Throw in some Red Lotus Blade -> SA Combo + Fusion with Fire and Banish (double damage on Undead, hurray!) MBs and you're looking at some really nice killing power.

Damn. I never thought I'd see the day where fighting bones in a standard-ish party would seem fun. Someone hold me; everything I believed in was wrong D:

[Malacite]

Someone hold me; everything I believed in was wrong D:


Weird Al Yankovic? X3

[Lmnop]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one :3

Dude, the only appeal to a lesbian scene is that there aren't any Penii of any sort. This "dickgirl" creation completely nullifies any satisfaction garnered from such a sequence. Not that I care about anything involving sexuality >.>;; I'm just a cold Elvaan Warrior who only thinks of battle or... something.

And bones take double damage from banish/fire? I knew they kicked their asses, but I didn't know that much. I'ma have to try this layout when I level BLU (though i'll prolly just grab a Mnk instead of a thf/mnk). Indeed, the greatest part of the advent of Blue mage was that there was finally another Fusion opener for MNK. This has long been the problem with HtH - the only jobs that could SC with them were Paladins who were resting their mp back and RNGs who'd rather not be using dulling/ flaming arrow. Of course, no one SCs anymore so go figure...

And they're not Wendigos in Qufim :3 they're Wights.

I did make incredible Fusions on Goblins in my days as thf/mnk though. Incredible!

[Armando]

Dude, the only appeal to a lesbian scene is that there aren't any Penii of any sort. This "dickgirl" creation completely nullifies any satisfaction garnered from such a sequence. Not that I care about anything involving sexuality >.>;; I'm just a cold Elvaan Warrior who only thinks of battle or... something.There's still boobs involved. Symmetrical docking ftw.

Oh, that's right, Wights. But, no, they don't take double damage from Fire. It's just that Banish does double damage to all undead (aside from temporarily stripping them of their physical damage resistances.) And yeah, starting Fusion isn't so easy without a BLU or a smart low-level melee RDM D:

[IfritnoItazura]

And yeah, starting Fusion isn't so easy without a BLU or a smart low-level melee RDM D:

Well, Hot Shot/Flaming Arrow, Punch, and Tachi: Kagero can also open Fusion.

In my static party, the PLD (me) starts off Fusion with Red Lotus Blade and let the Red Mage do his weapon-switch-blink routine of spelling casting. Many low level NIN's use the Sword + Katana combination, so they can open Fusion as well.

There are plenty of options for opening Fusion. >_>

[Theyaden]

Have you ever wondered how Mithra reproduce? Supposedly there's male Mithra, just exceedingly rare; however, the game lore also states they're not allowed to leave Kazham. Yet the Mithra population is plentiful, and there are Mithra kittens in every nature. If they're getting laid by other races, wouldn't the children look at least slightly different?

Yearly pilgramage to get laid in Kazam. ^..^

Dude, the only appeal to a lesbian scene is that there aren't any Penii of any sort. This "dickgirl" creation completely nullifies any satisfaction garnered from such a sequence. Not that I care about anything involving sexuality >.>;; I'm just a cold Elvaan Warrior who only thinks of battle or... something.

And bones take double damage from banish/fire? I knew they kicked their asses, but I didn't know that much. I'ma have to try this layout when I level BLU (though i'll prolly just grab a Mnk instead of a thf/mnk).

I've never noticed undead taking extra damage from fire beyond what everything else gets from it but banish works nicely on them. after using banish or Flash my club damage seems to increase for a little bit also. (From leveling club and devine in Seaserpent Grotto).

BTW any information on thief damage with /war vs /nin in the 40+ range?

[Vyuru]

Fighting Wendigoes has always been possible in standard exp parties hasn't it? Or maybe I was just in a few more crazy parties than other people. As drg I'd use Raiden Thrust to close Fusion on 'em, it never seemed to get the damage reduction that Double Thrust gets, plus it almost never misses which is pretty damn nice.


Have you ever wondered how Mithra reproduce? Supposedly there's male Mithra, just exceedingly rare; however, the game lore also states they're not allowed to leave Kazham. Yet the Mithra population is plentiful, and there are Mithra kittens in every nature.

I thought the males couldn't leave the homeland to the south, Kazham is just an outpost of the mithran empire to my understanding.


Symmetrical docking ftw.


After being told what a circle jerk was awhile ago, dare I ask what you mean by symmetrical docking? >.>

And I dunno, I've never been that into porn like some of the other guys I know, and at best a steamy hot lesbian scene get's a, "hmmm, nice" response from me.

I prefer the pics that aren't really porn/hentai, but aren't really, well innocent shall we say, and showing a bit of leg ;)

Most of the pics in the 4chan anime/cute section and a few from the ecchi section fall under that category.

And yes, I do rather favor the Drg AF pants, Feral pants, and the like on Mithra :P

[Armando]

Well, Hot Shot/Flaming Arrow, Punch, and Tachi: Kagero can also open Fusion.RNGs suck on bones though ; ; And getting a SMN to skillchain isn't so easy...but you're right, Hot Shot/Flaming Arrow and Kagero flew right over my head. I don't know why.Yearly pilgramage to get laid in Kazam. ^..^Wouldn't work, the dudes would die before impregnating the whole Vana'diel population of Mithra.Fighting Wendigoes has always been possible in standard exp parties hasn't it?It is, but it kinda sucks. Anyone that's not a blunt weapon user takes a damage penalty, and they have AoE damage + blind, AoE drain, Slow, Hell Slash...no matter which TP move they use, it kinda screws you over. Unless the party is designed specifically for bone-killing, they tend to be way more trouble than they're worth.As drg I'd use Raiden Thrust to close Fusion on 'em, it never seemed to get the damage reduction that Double Thrust gets, plus it almost never misses which is pretty damn nice.It's 'cuz it's a magic WS. It can't miss at all.I thought the males couldn't leave the homeland to the south, Kazham is just an outpost of the mithran empire to my understanding.Oh. Now that makes a lot of sense now.After being told what a circle jerk was awhile ago, dare I ask what you mean by symmetrical docking? >.>Yes, you want to know. This (http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/view/33698) is a prime example of symmetrical docking. I consider it the second hottest thing two girls can do (with the first being tribadism.)And yes, I do rather favor the Drg AF pants, Feral pants, and the like on Mithra Damn...I have this one picture of a Mithra Dragoon in AF, but it's hentai.

[Malacite]

Wouldn't work, the dudes would die before impregnating the whole Vana'diel population of Mithra.

DEATH BY SNOO SNOO! Ah, to be the Mithran Cabin Boy on a long voyage >.>b

EDIT: What in the hell is a Circle Jerk? Or Tribadism for that matter >.>

[IfritnoItazura]

DEATH BY SNOO SNOO! Ah, to be the Mithran Cabin Boy on a long voyage >.>b

EDIT: What in the hell is a Circle Jerk? Or Tribadism for that matter >.>

This thread has derailed enough from what was originally a thoughtful discussion of THF using hand-to-hand weapons. Please look up the irrelevant vocabulary via Wiki or Google on your own.

[Lmnop]

Well, Hot Shot/Flaming Arrow, Punch, and Tachi: Kagero can also open Fusion.
In my static party, the PLD (me) starts off Fusion with Red Lotus Blade and let the Red Mage do his weapon-switch-blink routine of spelling casting. Many low level NIN's use the Sword + Katana combination, so they can open Fusion as well.
There are plenty of options for opening Fusion. >_>


Tachi: Kagero: skill level 100 (learned at 33 Samurai). Summoners: dead. Rangers: near dead. When they were alive, you could never convince one to consider SCing with a MNK. Not to mention that the mobs favored by mnk and those favored by rng will always differ. Kagero is in prime time to make Fusion in Garlaige Citadel, but I'd rather be doing Enpi. However, I actually made a GC party in this level range just so I could do Kagero -> Combo Fusion and used my meditate WS to unleash Enpi when I could.

That time when I was the one who made a concious effort to sac my own Enpi for Fusion is the only time in over 3 years of this game that I've ever seen a MNK close Fusion. Nin really has no reason to use sword after the dunes, as far as I can tell. plus, NINs get slow tp. Blade: Teki (or is it :To?) opens Fragmentation but I had a Nin who refused to open it for my SA Sturmwind back in the day because she was only doing like 9 dmg with it. Which meant less hate for her and more hate for me. >.<

And Ewww I can't believe you just suggested poor Malacite Google Circle Jerk. Whatever you do please don't type that into google.

And hey - symmetrical docking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetrical_Docking). don't worry it's work safe.


Thf/war and thf/nin post 40: I'd rather not get too much into it since thf/nins don't like being told they're weak but... honestly if you want to DD, you want Berserk. There is no offhand dagger that can compete with it. Note that I think end-game when you can get 20% delay reduction via Dual Wield, that it's worth looking into. But even then, it's shit if you're just another burst damage THF. If you're not paying attention to your per-swing damage, you're not playing to your fullest.

As of 40+, I think that a thf/mnk with Raging Fists could be exciting (you said it was like 4-700 damage?) but I also think the low acc could really hurt. VB should land 250-500 in those levels (mob pending, of course) which is close enough that the consistency of the attacks is nice. I never really thought about it though... I suppose even loaded up on acc gear HtH, you could still hit as decently as a THF does with a dagger. I keep wanting to say "your standard melee will suffer" but that's kinda part of the thf job description (especially fighting beetles and antica as everyone does through the 40s).


P.S. haha I accidentally put /docking in my tag instead of /url.

[Vyuru]

Thf/war and thf/nin post 40: I'd rather not get too much into it since thf/nins don't like being told they're weak but... honestly if you want to DD, you want Berserk.

Agreed, /nin let's you grab some nice +stat daggers/swords, but 99% of the time a thf will be eating sushi, and against some mobs I'll see thiefs hitting for alot of 0s, beetles for instance, either in Garliage or Altepa, and the thf's TP gain will suffer for it. /war on the other hand at least nets you Berserk, which with your sushi eating should be a very nice combination.

I have a thfy friend who tried out various ways to play thf, and his opinion was that you should only /mnk or use H2H when fighting skeletons, and then I think it was mainly for SATA+WS damage.

[Murphie]

I have to say, this thread has been really informative for me. I'm going to be leveling THF soon (likely just to 37, but you never know), and all of this information is going to be really helpful. Thanks!

edit: Except all that mithra lesbian stuff. That's not helpful at all.

[Lmnop]

Except all that mithra lesbian stuff. That's not helpful at all.

mysteries of the universe need solved some time, dude.

[Malacite]

edit: Except all that mithra lesbian stuff. That's not helpful at all.

Matter of opinion >:P

Have fun with THF ^^b

[IfritnoItazura]

Summoners: dead. Rangers: near dead. When they were alive, you could never convince one to consider SCing with a MNK.
What on earth are you talking about? RNG's and SMN's can SC, and low level ones usually would gladly do so for the asking.

I leveled SAM to 32 a few months ago, and I've SC'ed with RNG's and SMN's. Sure, I had to teach one of the SMN how to SC, but it worked after a few tries, and the SMN, BLM, and myself ended up liking it quite well.

If you didn't think to ask them to SC, don't just assume they would not.

Not to mention that the mobs favored by mnk and those favored by rng will always differ. Kagero is in prime time to make Fusion in Garlaige Citadel, but I'd rather be doing Enpi. However, I actually made a GC party in this level range just so I could do Kagero -> Combo Fusion and used my meditate WS to unleash Enpi when I could.

Low level SAM's aren't meant to dish out sky high numbers on SC; they are there to add additional utility to other melee's SC's by forming renkei with them, and enable the mages to MB. Personally, my WS choice was dictated by whether or not there's a BLM to MB--if there's one (or more), I choose SC.

It may be that MNK's and RNG's prefer different critters, but most parties fight at the same places and exp on the same monsters. Their target preference is hardly a deciding factor.


And Ewww I can't believe you just suggested poor Malacite Google Circle Jerk. Whatever you do please don't type that into google.

He asked. And, it's far better he go find out what they are on his own instead of people acting "helpful" and continue the off topic/off color discussion in this thread, like posting link to symmetrical docking and whatnot.

[Malacite]

He asked. And, it's far better he go find out what they are on his own instead of people acting "helpful" and continue the off topic/off color discussion in this thread, like posting link to symmetrical docking and whatnot.

How's the view on that high horse of yours? Take a chill pill k?


Speaking of SAM and SMN SCing at the lower levels though, it does seem like an awful lot of people don't know what they're doing. SCing on SMN is actually the best way to deal damage early on. The only hard part is trying to remember what blood pacts chain with what weapon skills >.>

Well, that and SMN can also MB as opposed to SCing, depending on the situation ^^b


I just wish every SAM and their cousin would stop using Meditate just to get off an extra WS for the sake of WS. Please, learn to use Mediate as it was intended; a skill chaining tool.

Yet more derailment I know, but it seems like the OP's questions have been answered.


Actually, on the notion of THF/NIN vs THF/WAR:

I levelled my THF up to 45 not too long ago for TH2 and tried out both subs. WAR sub greatly improves your per swing damage, but strangely enough I didn't find it helped all that much for viper bite, which doubles your attack rating... weird.

I actually found I did higher WS damage eating squid sushi and dual-wielding DEX/AGI daggers for SATA. The difference was as high as 100 dmg some times, which was just staggering compared to the increase in DPS from meat and /war.

I dunno, my vote still goes to Squid Sushi for SATA mods and help with landing Acid bolts though. As for sub job choice, it all depends: Can you evade enough that you don't need shadows? Or do you want the added TP gain (50+) and the safety blanket of the almighty paper shield? ^^b

[Lmnop]

I'm sensing some enmity towards me...

What on earth are you talking about? RNG's and SMN's can SC, and low level ones usually would gladly do so for the asking.
I leveled SAM to 32 a few months ago, and I've SC'ed with RNG's and SMN's. Sure, I had to teach one of the SMN how to SC, but it worked after a few tries, and the SMN, BLM, and myself ended up liking it quite well.
If you didn't think to ask them to SC, don't just assume they would not.

Rngs and Smns aren't exactly common, is what I meant. However, in my time as mnk and as thf/mnk I've pulled many-a-tooth trying to get Fusion openers (all pre-BLU, of course). Please do not assume you know everything about me and my experiences.

If you'd ever partied with me (you haven't, btw), you'd know that I talk a lot. I'm obnoxious (you figured that part out) about making sure my parties are well-informed. I make sure they realize that we have a perfectly functional Distortion with nothing but Carbuncle and a dagger. However, filters and retards drown out the fun fast. It's simple: The DD waits too long to tell the smn to go, and has like 150 tp by the time the (usually slow) smn gets around to summoning whatever's needed. That's great and all, but it's just an excuse. Now we have to look at filters. The DD always filters pets and well, everyone's everything except for themselves. Bla bla, i'm giving semantics, right? well, to cut to the chase I've had extreme difficulty trying to get SMNs to SC. Believe you me, as a person who wishes to find purpose for underloved jobs, I'm perpetually amazed at their unwillingness to pay attention!

Still one of my favorite parties ever was pld war brd smn blmx2. smn was main healer but he also opened distortion for me (Fenrir... thing to Rampage). I've prolly gotten better exp in AU, but that was my favorite party ever. Great chemistry, the Paladin refused to lose hate and our positioning was perfect for the BRD time and again. 5 incredible party members and a crappy WAR puller. I just thought I'd toss that out - I know what SMN can do.

Low level SAM's aren't meant to dish out sky high numbers on SC; they are there to add additional utility to other melee's SC's by forming renkei with them, and enable the mages to MB. Personally, my WS choice was dictated by whether or not there's a BLM to MB--if there's one (or more), I choose SC.

Killing is priority #1. Blms often don't realize this of their melee. A skillchain isn't worth it if you a) don't have an MB b) have a mage always missing the MB (sad - they seem afk more than MNKs) or c) have a weak MB. Basically, if you're looking at 200 Enpi or 50 Kagero + 50 Fusion +50 extra damage on MB, then the solo Enpi is worth more. Luckily, on Bats and beetles in GC (that seldom resist Fusion more than a half), just the SC damage is enough to make SCing worthwhile. At least... with a good closer. Sam are only damage enablers when it puts total damage potential above their own.

As for using Med for SCing with 2nd melee - most of my samurai parties lacked more than one melee to SC with. I also found it very difficult to get my fellow DD to understand that I would have TP. Especially when (what seems to be) 60% of the population is running Tparty, they assume my tp is too low to SC with them in time. Very obnoxious. I admit incompetence on my part here though - I had 2 tp macros: one for meditate O and one for Meditate X but I hit the wrong one half the time so I reverted to simply <tp> (it's been ctrl 2 for 3 years so it's out of habit to hit a diff button).

It may be that MNK's and RNG's prefer different critters, but most parties fight at the same places and exp on the same monsters. Their target preference is hardly a deciding factor.

Supporting evidence x.x Yeah, you're right.

He asked. And, it's far better he go find out what they are on his own instead of people acting "helpful" and continue the off topic/off color discussion in this thread, like posting link to symmetrical docking and whatnot.

If you actually bothered to hover over the link, then you know that it was a link to Wikipedia of all things. Hardly worth getting worked up over.

This post came off much more bitter than I intended. You'll have to forgive me this -- I'll use the excuse that I've been snowed in for 4 days now (with my brother and his girlfriend at that >.<).

[IfritnoItazura]

Lmnop:

My experiences partying with SMN's differs from yours, that's all; never found it hard to have them in SC. In any case, this side discussion over who to open Fusion for THF/MNK should have ended already--PLD, BLU, RNG, SMN, and SAM (at Lv.33 or so?) can do so, if you have one in the party, and if the person is willing.

Also, I've no specific objection toward where you link to, but if you do not see why these speculations and discussions about Mithra sex and etc. do not belong in the Thief forum, much less in a thread about THF/MNK and Hand-to-Hand--I just don't know what to say.

Enmity? Or frustration? Either way, certainly not toward you alone. -_-

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Continuing the post and getting right back on topic.... I had another question about THF/MNK in later levels.

So assuming we realize that THF/MNK is certainly viable, its pretty much at its best until LV20 and thereafter, you can pick other subs for damage tweaking and they can prove better.

But, what about LV40+?

Just from random conversation and banter, I've been told that THFs lose their edge on SATA VB after a certain level. Usually LV40+ is what I've heard. Now, while I can't really confirm this or whatever, I remember seeing THFs do pretty darn well playing THF/NIN and hitting 3-500 dmg sc's w/SATA VB at this level.

But, then I remember also that THF/NIN hits for alot of 0's on certain mobs w/their daggers too. It was mentioned before that this happens on beetles and stuff, so yeah, that makes sense because in the 40's you could fight alot of beetles.

Anyway, what would be the benefit of using THF/MNK at the level it could obtain Raging Fists. Heck, when do they even get it? I guess I could go check the skill charts. But really, just trying some way to get the conversation flowing again and back on-topic. What would be the best equipment for THF/MNK to use in comparsion to another sub? Would THF/MNK w/Raging Fists rule out something else as far as a sub and equipment goes at the level it gets it. I think it comes around at LV48 for THF but I'm not sure.

[Vyuru]

Thfs get Raging Fists at level 50 according to the skillcap chart I have. From what I have seen, Raging Fists for a monk main, will do around 400 damage against Soldier Crawlers. So I think that we could expect around that much, or perhaps more damage due to SATA, from a thief.

Viper Bite should do around 300-500 damage at this level. If the thief knows what he is doing he can maybe push the 600 mark. Some thfs just don't have the optimal gear for it and some do.

Which reminds me, I don't know what the stat modifiers on Raging Fists is, but to get the most out of SATA you need alot of dex and agility, dex for SA and agi for TA, I don't know if having more +str for Raging Fists (assuming it's a modifier) or if having more +dex/agi for SATA would be better.

There are alot of other considerations at this level too, for instance I used to play with alot of drks, so stack Abs Vit, Dia II, Acid Bolts, and blm enfeebles, that mob will have little to no defense and makes for easy pickings.

I don't know what to think about thf/mnk at about level 40, it looks like they would have a 25 level difference between their dagger and H2H skill ratings, that is alot. From my recent samurai in garliage experiance, 6-9 levels of Gkatana skill made all the difference in the world from whiffing constantly to being able to hit for pretty good damage.

Which is something to think about, you can use sushi and all of your +dex gear to help with your accuracy problems, but I suspect that unless you are fighting something weak to blunt, your damage will be low, you may be forced to spam bolts for TP gain, at which point it seems to me that either thf/war or thf/nin would be better for higher per hit damage, and possibly faster TP gain due to higher skill caps/more damage/more accuracy.

[Armando]

Yeah, it wouldn't work. You lose a ton of attack and accuracy, TP gain will be slower, and Viper Bite really does make the most out of SATA since it doubles your Attack when the damage is being calculated. It also forces you into /MNK sub, and then you lose out far too much from not using /WAR as well.From my recent samurai in garliage experiance, 6-9 levels of Gkatana skill made all the difference in the world from whiffing constantly to being able to hit for pretty good damage.If by that you mean that you levelled, then that was what made all the difference. Don't mean to say 6-9 Acc and Attack don't count, but the level penalties are pretty severe. But, you're right, -25 Attack and Accuracy is ridiculous and it WILL hurt you.
By the way, a good THF shouldn't hit for 0 on a normal mob unless they're overhunting or it's a Crawler that used Cocoon (or it has Stoneskin, but that one's kind of a moot point.) And any mob that can make a THF hit for 0 can make others hit for 0 as well.

[Malacite]

I personally found VB to die out by the late 30's/early 40's.

WAR sub really shines from 30+ (especially in Garlaige if you're fighting bats) for your per swing damage and WS. And by 50 (the point where you'd finally have Raging Fists) you'd also be getting Double Attack.

IMO, /MNK is really only great pre-30. Yes, boost + SATA Combo is nice, but at 30 I'd much rather have berserk and main a sword for SATA Fast Blade until 33.

[Vyuru]

If by that you mean that you levelled, then that was what made all the difference.

Yes, I gained a few levels, went in at lvl 30 with Gkatana capped at 90, and came out at 32 with Gkatana capped at 99, those 9 skill levels made a huge difference in my abilities.

At level 40, a thf will have 123 Dagger skill and 101 H2H skill, to put that into perspective, a lvl 33 thf has a cap of 102 Dagger skill. So at best, a lvl 40 thf/mnk using H2H can expect to have the accuracy and possibly damage output of a lvl 33 thf using daggers. This may not be a 100% accurate estimation, but I think it is a reasonable guess.

To me, swapping between two weapons of different ranks is almost like leveling or deleveling, what really matters to me is what you can do with that weapon. If it's a weapon the mob is weak against, that's a nice bonus, I've seen some warriors put up impressive numbers in King Ranperre's Tomb using a lance. If the WS are something special, like many of the Break WS that Gaxe has, that's another thing to take into consideration.

I think that a thf using H2H is a perfectly viable option in some instances, a bones party, maybe some ENMs/BCNMs/missions or other things I am not aware of. However I do not think that it would be a good idea to be a thf/mnk using H2H in a standard exp party.

Especially when you think of puppet masters, who have a what, C+ rank in H2H? I'm not putting down puppet masters or anything, but how many of them do you see in parties? I've heard alot of uproar about how weak puppet masters are, and they have a better H2H skill than thiefs do, so what are your party members going to think when you show up with a H2H weapon? It might be workable, but your parties may not give you the opportunity to find out.


I might be a very strong advocate that warriors should use crossbows to help increase their damage output and TP gain, but that is not their primary weapon. And with a thf/mnk you'd be giving up your primary weapon for what seems to me a substandard one.

[Vyuru]

I personally found VB to die out by the late 30's/early 40's.


By, "die out", just what do you mean? I almost always party with a thief, and their Viper Bite damage is for the most part pretty consistant, I got into a static party in my late 40s and by my mid 50s, I'd see plenty of high 500+ Viper Bites from our thief, I want to say that I saw some 600+ Viper Bites from him but this was awhile ago so my memory might be a bit fuzzy. SATA + VB from my experiance is not something to sneeze at, I was under the impression that there is little better.

[IfritnoItazura]

But, then I remember also that THF/NIN hits for alot of 0's on certain mobs w/their daggers too. It was mentioned before that this happens on beetles and stuff, so yeah, that makes sense because in the 40's you could fight alot of beetles.

Or crabs. The low skill from Hand-to-Hand would only exacerbates the problem, I think, and THF/MNK can't use Berserk to increase attack like a THF/WAR can.

Edit:
Well, you won't really see crabs in 40's unless you level in Misareaux Coast. >_>;

[Armando]

Yes, I gained a few levels, went in at lvl 30 with Gkatana capped at 90, and came out at 32 with Gkatana capped at 99, those 9 skill levels made a huge difference in my abilities.I think you missed my point ^^; Your hitting rate and Attack/Defense ratio get penalized for each level that the mob is higher than you. It's not that those 9 skill levels made an incredible difference (though they did contribute to that); the fact that you were 3 levels higher is what made most of the difference. A Level 36 player with 93 skill would perform better than a level 33 player with 102 skill if they're both going up against higher level mobs.By, "die out", just what do you mean? I almost always party with a thief, and their Viper Bite damage is for the most part pretty consistant, I got into a static party in my late 40s and by my mid 50s, I'd see plenty of high 500+ Viper Bites from our thief, I want to say that I saw some 600+ Viper Bites from him but this was awhile ago so my memory might be a bit fuzzy. SATA + VB from my experiance is not something to sneeze at, I was under the impression that there is little better.Same here. I've never seen SATA VB pull out low numbers. Its very nature (doubles your Attack) backed up by all your DEX and AGI converted into DMG makes for big numbers no matter what you're up against.

Also, Beetles have never given me much problem damage-wise (but Rhino Guard can be a real bitch accuracy-wise).

[Vyuru]

I think you missed my point Your hitting rate and Attack/Defense ratio get penalized for each level that the mob is higher than you.

So you get penalized for fighting monsters higher than you? How so? I can kind of understand the vit/str/att/acc aspects of it, but I don't think I'd call that penalized, so I'm a little confused.

A Level 36 player with 93 skill would perform better than a level 33 player with 102 skill if they're both going up against higher level mobs.

Is it just that the level 36 player has more dex and other stats than the lvl 33 player, or are there hidden factors that I'm not away of?

[Armando]

For every level the mob is higher than you, your Attack/Defense ratio gets -0.05. So if you have an Attack/Defense ratio of 1, and you're fighting an IT mob 8 levels higher than you, your Attack/Defense ratio turns into 0.60. Your accuracy and magic accuracy get penalized as well; while we don't know the exact numbers (just like nobody's managed to figure out a hit rate or resist rate formula yet) the penalties are still pretty severe.

Have you ever wondered why a Lv.60 PLD/RDM can land enfeebles on an EP Lv.50 mob but a Lv.30 RDM will never land anything on a level 50 mob? It's not my INT, because an Elvaan PLD has horrible INT no matter the level. It's because the Lv.30 RDM has 20 levels' worth of penalties working against him/her. Granted, I do get resists on PLD/RDM but I can still land Paralyze in 1-3 tries, and Sleep whatever I need to (lol Dark Staff.)

Basically, gaining one level increases your overall performance more than gaining a level's worth of +skill. We can have all the +stats and gear in the world, but if your party overhunts your performance WILL suck.

EDIT: The level difference penalties are also the main reason why any T mob that's not exactly 1 level higher than you has a tendency to own you in the early levels.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Old thread I know but just wanted a mini-update:

So took the advice of using Fire Sword in the low 20's.........

decided to go THF/NIN since the 2nd weapon's hit will factor into the damage...

avrg 140-150 in Qufim vs crabs and pugils.... so very nice damage.

Didn't do THF/MNK, will check it out next at this LV range from 20-25..... however...

had a BRD in part from 22-23 and was hitting 200-250 SA Fast Blade 3/4's of the time :3

oh and by the way... didn't run a parser so don't know how close the accuracy was but..... was hitting on avg it seems about 40 dmg per hit w/both swords ..... a sam in same party was hitting 46 with his katana and us attacking around the same time......... so that made me feel good lol this was w/o the bard

bard included was hitting for 60ish while sam hit for 70ish

[fantom69]

I thought the males couldn't leave the homeland to the south, Kazham is just an outpost of the mithran empire to my understanding.


actually Kazham is the Mithra homeland not an outpost, take a walk around and talk to all the Mithra there you will know, their main Chieftainess is there

[Armando]

Nope. The Mithran homeland is called the Island of Tsahya. (http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=102025) Mithra live in tribes, so it's only logical that there would be many tribes, each with its own chieftainess. Besides, don't you think Kazhaam is stupidly small?