Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

[Eiyoko]

Hello, sorry for the rant. But I need to get this out sooner or later.

Whenever I have a party, things tend to go like this:

Me: Who should I summon?
Party Member: diab
Me: I don't have Diabolos....
*Five minutes later*
Me: Who would you like me to MB with?
Party Member: can u smn diab
Me: I don't have Diabolos, I told you that....
*less than five minutes later*
Party Member: can u plz summon diab!
Me: ...I...don't...have...Diabolos....

Thankfully it doesn't often repeat more than that.

I'm tired of people making assumptions about summoners having every single avatar from day one. I tend to lose invites because of it; it's just stupid. Getting the avatars is really recommended, but it's not like Fenrir and Diabolos are mandatory or anything...; ;

Before I had Fenrir I had to use other blood pacts to make my way. To be honest, when I use Fenrir now that I have him he tends to slow down th party when the moon is low, but it's slower either way for me. I miss being able to summon a variety of avatars for buffs...Hastega...Party Enthunder...Party Stoneskin (as long as they're not having me spam it)...even Ice Spikes when we have a Paladin tanking is alot of fun. But no, the only thing my parties ever want is Fenrir. Sometimes I have to explain that the current moonphase won't give them much of an accuracy bonus but they insist.

Though in my opinion Fenrir is really useful during the New Moon with Lunar Cry (whichever one lowers the enemy's accuracy and evasion, I keep getting them mixed up but I'll get it right sometime! :3)...if you can get that to land who needs an accuracy bonus?

Maybe the melee guy over there who doesn't have much accuracy in the first place...but that's besides the point. O.o

[Galaxia]

Hiya,
I don't know the big hype about Diab partys I get in much preer Fenrir, I am still doing missions for Diab but after talking to alot of Summoners they regret wasteing the time getting him.....
I reccomend getting all avatars but it's not demnaded or needed.

[Mhurron]

If you don't have all the avatars, don't ask the open question "What should I summon." Without qualifying the question it sounds like you have all your avatars. Besides, you're the summoner, shouldn't you know what to summon?

Oh, and ya, getting your avatars really is 'mandatory or anything.' Summoners have to be able to, I don't know, summon stuff.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I think Mhurron is right, you do ask your PTs what to summon. Its kinda like a leader forming a PT then asking everyone where they should EXP... you mean you don't know? You invited me to play 20 Questions?

I've never been in a PT that asked a SMN to summon a particular avatar above all others, I don't think there's really a hard preference. No one's going to say no to Aerial Armor or Earthen Ward, at least, I can't think of a good reason why they wouldn't want it unless all were subbing /NIN, even then Earthen Ward would be nice.

As far as Fenrir goes, he and the other avatars with good physical attacks are preferred for mobs like colibri. I saw a colibri swallow a Diamond Dust without flinching, so no dice there. Thank god they can't reflect avatar two hours.

And that's somewhat of a problem everywhere in the game. People have become so used to fighting weak mobs at 50+ that now all they want is big melee/physical damage numbers than magic damage. Since SMN and BLU are the mages that can get around reflect with physical magic, they haven't suffered against the new FFXI Crab, the Colibri.

And I'd let people slide for not having Diabolos. Fenrir, on the other hand, isn't impossible to obtain if you have a job at 60+. Just requires getting the six whispers again and the bauble afterward. There are other jobs that actively want some of the avatar gear and it can't hurt to ask friends or members of your LS to persue these runs.

[Sabaron]

Call me crazy....but I think I've seen this exact same thread in a previous incarnation.

Was it here?

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/general-ffxi-discussion/63801-about-elitists-5.html

[Eohmer]

Call me crazy....but I think I've seen this exact same thread in a previous incarnation.

Was it here?

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/general-ffxi-discussion/63801-about-elitists-5.html

I knew I wasn't going crazy... :D

[Vyuru]

Yeah, but when you're a summoner for life I'm sure you deal with these nitwits alot of times.

[Sabaron]

Diabolos is hard to get. Diabolos basically requires you to have another 75 job. Personally, I'm not levelling summoner until I have Diabolos, Fenrir, an Evoker's Ring and Carby Mitts. I suppose, though, if you giddy for SMN, then go for it without, but you can't complain too much when people want something good and you don't have it.

SMN without Diabolos is gimp. He's not a piece of gear, he's a spell and an incredibly useful one at that. Not everyone has him, and it really doesn't bother me, but it would bother me if I was a SMN which is why I stopped levelling SMN when I was set up for Promyvion. Fenrir is just fine in most instances, but all of Diabolos's abilities are good. I believe Camisado has a Knockback effect iirc which can be used to interrupt spellcasting if that works on monsters...I'm not sure as I don't actually have Diabolos and thus have never tried to use it for this purpose. Perhaps a Diabolos-wielding summoner can expound.

[Gobo]

Diabolos is hard to get. Diabolos basically requires you to have another 75 job. Personally, I'm not levelling summoner until I have Diabolos, Fenrir, an Evoker's Ring and Carby Mitts. I suppose, though, if you giddy for SMN, then go for it without, but you can't complain too much when people want something good and you don't have it.
SMN without Diabolos is gimp. He's not a piece of gear, he's a spell and an incredibly useful one at that. Not everyone has him, and it really doesn't bother me, but it would bother me if I was a SMN which is why I stopped levelling SMN when I was set up for Promyvion. Fenrir is just fine in most instances, but all of Diabolos's abilities are good. I believe Camisado has a Knockback effect iirc which can be used to interrupt spellcasting if that works on monsters...I'm not sure as I don't actually have Diabolos and thus have never tried to use it for this purpose. Perhaps a Diabolos-wielding summoner can expound.

I'm going to have to completely disagree with that. A SMN without Diabolos is hardly gimp at all. Diabolos is, imo, the most useless of all the avatars released. His perpetuation is the same as the Celestial Avatars. Until the 2nd merit category update and the SMN skill update, he was pretty good. But after those 2 updates, he's become a trophy more or less.

Camisado: no knockback for players and Carby/Fenrir can do the same damage with less perpet.

Somnolence: Ok damage for cost and ok Gravity, and its a Ward oddly enough. Nothing stellar.

Nightmare: Before the skill update, best SMN sleep. After the update, Shiva>Diabolos (it lasts longer)

Ultimate Terror: Its gimmicky and a waste of MP.

Noctoshield: Pre-Phalanx II, it was a godsend. Post Phalanx II its a piece of crap.

Dream Shroud: Maybe the best ability, though not great. Its a small boost to both, though nothing to write home about. I wouldn't rely on it for tanking JoL or Bahamut

Nether Blast: Its good consistent damage, but since the Merit BPs and the skill update, I haven't used it that much. If the mob is physically resistant, I'm more prone to use Geocrush now for ~650 damage and stun. (All merit BPs have the same range as Nether Blast and have pretty good magic acc with +skill). Others may be different, its just my play style.

So really, Diabolos is hardly the avatar he was when he was released at the end of CoP. Unlike Fenrir, who has more practical uses in both Soloing, PTs and even partly endgame, Diabolos's uses have been replaced by other and pretty much better things.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

The design of SMN itself is quirky and conflicts with the player base's elitest opinion that you should have them all before you take the job up. That certainly was not the case for Rydia, Garnet, Eiko or Yuna.

SMN has always had to go on a pilgrimage of sorts and challenge the summons in combat to prove their worth. But FFXI originally rigged it in hopes you had taken another job to high level first. That's fine for the people that played it from 2002, but hell on anyone who started after FFXI and Zilart. Fenrir wasn't even available until shortly after the 2004 PS2 launch. Diabolos wasn't until mid-2005 and it was long after his original mission was unvieled.

SE has tried to fix it has best they could with the original avatars, but its hard to do it with any that have followed because its somewhat of a slight to other players to dumb down each and every avatar battle when they did the harder ones.

[Sabaron]

I'm going to have to completely disagree with that. A SMN without Diabolos is hardly gimp at all. Diabolos is, imo, the most useless of all the avatars released. His perpetuation is the same as the Celestial Avatars. Until the 2nd merit category update and the SMN skill update, he was pretty good. But after those 2 updates, he's become a trophy more or less.

Camisado: no knockback for players and Carby/Fenrir can do the same damage with less perpet.

Somnolence: Ok damage for cost and ok Gravity, and its a Ward oddly enough. Nothing stellar.

Nightmare: Before the skill update, best SMN sleep. After the update, Shiva>Diabolos (it lasts longer)

Ultimate Terror: Its gimmicky and a waste of MP.

Noctoshield: Pre-Phalanx II, it was a godsend. Post Phalanx II its a piece of crap.

Dream Shroud: Maybe the best ability, though not great. Its a small boost to both, though nothing to write home about. I wouldn't rely on it for tanking JoL or Bahamut

Nether Blast: Its good consistent damage, but since the Merit BPs and the skill update, I haven't used it that much. If the mob is physically resistant, I'm more prone to use Geocrush now for ~650 damage and stun. (All merit BPs have the same range as Nether Blast and have pretty good magic acc with +skill). Others may be different, its just my play style.

So really, Diabolos is hardly the avatar he was when he was released at the end of CoP. Unlike Fenrir, who has more practical uses in both Soloing, PTs and even partly endgame, Diabolos's uses have been replaced by other and pretty much better things.

I'll have to amend my thinking then:

If Camisado has no knockback, then it's practically useless.

If Somnolence is a Ward pact, that makes it valuable since it costs only 6 more mp (plus perpetuation) than Gravity, has the same effect, and does damage as well.

Nightmare: Can a Sleep spell that does damage really be that bad? What does over-cap Summoning skill do to this spell?

Ultimate Terror: meh, I suppose I shouldn'tve said all of his abilities are good. Not worth a 60-second downtime on your Rage pact, but at least it's cheap.

Noctoshield: RDM doesn't get Phalanx II until 75th level plus merits. Not all Red Mages have it and it's not area of effect. This one is still very good. For the price of just over two Phalanx II's you can have 6 (more likely 3-4 depending on party setup). What is the damage resistance benefit on this, btw?

Dream Shroud: Kind of expensive, but good for mage-heavy DD parties. Do you know the relative effect?

Nether Blast: Pre-75 this is your only ranged Blood Pact. It has value for XP PT. It deals Darkness damage (a rare thing), and it costs 73 MP less than a merit Blood Pact. I'm sure Merit BPs are more efficient at dealing
damage. What are the effects of +Skill on this?

Like I said, I consider it gimp to be down an ability. That point still stands regardless of the relative usability of the avatar at 75th level. I wouldn't level SMN without him, but I don't complain if a SMN doesn't have him. He is by no means necessary. Fenrir, I get a little upset, but I generally don't mention it as, depending on moon phase, he's more or less useful except in attack modes.

[Gobo]

I'll have to amend my thinking then:
If Camisado has no knockback, then it's practically useless.
If Somnolence is a Ward pact, that makes it valuable since it costs only 6 more mp (plus perpetuation) than Gravity, has the same effect, and does damage as well.
Nightmare: Can a Sleep spell that does damage really be that bad? What does over-cap Summoning skill do to this spell?
Ultimate Terror: meh, I suppose I shouldn'tve said all of his abilities are good. Not worth a 60-second downtime on your Rage pact, but at least it's cheap.
Noctoshield: RDM doesn't get Phalanx II until 75th level plus merits. Not all Red Mages have it and it's not area of effect. This one is still very good. For the price of just over two Phalanx II's you can have 6 (more likely 3-4 depending on party setup). What is the damage resistance benefit on this, btw?
Dream Shroud: Kind of expensive, but good for mage-heavy DD parties. Do you know the relative effect?
Nether Blast: Pre-75 this is your only ranged Blood Pact. It has value for XP PT. It deals Darkness damage (a rare thing), and it costs 73 MP less than a merit Blood Pact. I'm sure Merit BPs are more efficient at dealing
damage. What are the effects of +Skill on this?
Like I said, I consider it gimp to be down an ability. That point still stands regardless of the relative usability of the avatar at 75th level. I wouldn't level SMN without him, but I don't complain if a SMN doesn't have him. He is by no means necessary. Fenrir, I get a little upset, but I generally don't mention it as, depending on moon phase, he's more or less useful except in attack modes.

Nightmare: Over skill cap makes the sleep more accurate. Shiva still wins out due to longer duration. The slip from players Nightmare is really low, very gimped vs what Diabolos uses in BCs. I was screwing around with friends and helping with Memento Mori and used Nightmare to sleep them (pre-skill update), it was like Bio I type slip.

Nether Blast: Over skill does nothing. At 65 it does 480ish damage, at 75 its 508. Meteorite and Eclipse Bite do more damage than it. Its only benefit was that is was nearly unresistable (not a word, oh well) and had good range, but the high acc of the Merit BPs now over shadows this at 75.

Somnolence's Gravity is not something to rely on at all. It lasts for <30 sec (vs a VT+ Earth mob). If you are gonna use it to run, might as well throw Carby at the mob and book it.

Noctoshield is a flat 13 damage. Phalanx II is 21 fully merited (with +Enhancing Gear to hit cap). For PTs with PLDs its good, but for other jobs, Earthen Ward is better for its flat 200 damage absorption+15 min duration. Endgame though, most LSs will have a RDM with Phalanx II merited, and they will rarely have to cast on more than 2-3 people.

Dream Shroud: Hmm, I want to say it fluctuates between 5-10% for both, depending on the time of day (the whole dream thing), but I can't be concrete. I've seen a +10% boost with Nether Blast, but BLMs have shown <5% from DS. So many things are killed with Melee now a days (see all of ToAU and much of RoZ) that its not as needed anymore. And for things where tanks are in +MBD and +resist gear, SMNs are almost always DDs and using lvl70 BPs.

[Grandsummoner_Kairos]

For Diabolos all i have to say is he's at the bottom of my list as far as avatars used goes. only thing i use less than him is the dark spirit.

I have 333 smn skill and i can sleep things with nightmare that redmages and blm's have a hard time sleeping, but that's more because of my smn skill, not because nightmare is so accurate.

I like ultimate terror because i use it in dynamis to weaken large crowds for quick killing.

Somnolence is a very accurate gravity effect as it is, not to mention skill above cap, but the best thing about this pact is that it can be used with a rage because its a ward.

By the time fenrir was released i was already a 72 smn so knowing how I leveled smn at that time, the only necessary avatars all the way up are the 6 celestial ones and spirits if you know how to use them. Fenrir was nice when he came along but he hardly makes or breaks the job. Diabolos is a useful tool to have but if he was gone tomorrow i wouldn't miss him much. They didn't make lower level terrestrial avatar battles for a reason i think, they don't consider those two that were added as a basic tool needed for the job to function. You have to know how to use multiple avatar effects. I think personally that dream shroud is pointless to use defensively unless its stacked with shell and shining ruby.

[Sabaron]

So Diabolos is basically "meh" then? That's disappointing. I want to see if they release a new avatar for ToAU, but that's a whole new can of worms. You seriously use, say, Water Spirit more often than Diabolos?

[Canitoch]

Like I said, I consider it gimp to be down an ability. That point still stands regardless of the relative usability of the avatar at 75th level.He is by no means necessary.

If he isn't necessary, then you really wouldn't be gimped if you didn't have him right?

I never got diabolos, I retired at 71 smn..I tried though. I don't care if summoners don't have him, I think you should try at least to get him. But I don't think people are gimped if they don't have Diabolos.

I'm just confused that you say, you are gimped without Diabolos, but he isn't nesecsary at all, you're just gimped, even if he isn't very useful.

[Omni]

where's the OP?:biggrin:

[SharMarali]

OK, here's the problem.

FFXI has been out for quite a long time now. Over 3 years in America and a bit longer in Japan. There is a HUGE player base with multiple high-level jobs. It has gotten to a point where the players who are raising their 3rd or 4th job OUTNUMBER the players who are raising their first job.

Unfortunately, the majority of the players raising their 3rd or 4th job have forgotten how difficult it was when they were "growing" their character. They don't remember what a pain it was to find help with things like genkai and AF and various missions. They solo things now that required an alliance of level 50's to accomplish. Making gil is easier for them now than it was then, because they have access to solo higher-level monsters for drops and/or they've raised a craft to a high level or have some other form of gil making. They've forgotten that lower level players generally don't have the ability to amass huge sums of gil.

So they take it for granted that everybody they PT with has at least one level 75 job. I'm guilty of this myself. I was in a PT in the basement of Garlaige last week and we had a THF who was asking a lot of questions about stuff that we all took for granted, and eventually we learned that she hadn't yet cleared genkai 1. The funny part was, the THF was really quite good. So we completely took it for granted that she probably had a couple of level 75 jobs up her sleeve and we weren't making a serious attempt to answer her honest questions until AFTER we found out she was raising her first job.

Such is the problem of the summoner. It's been my observation that there is a disproportionate number of SMNs who are also level 75 WHMs. Doesn't hold true for all of them. Doesn't hold true for me, personally. But people see a SMN and tend to assume that they're a 75 WHM. Completely wrong for them to do it, but that's the way of things. And even if they find out the SMN does NOT have a level 75 job, let alone WHM, they tend to assume that the SMN can easily afford to pay a bunch of high level players to kill Fenrir and Diabolos for them. Well, I'm a bit out of touch with things, and I don't really know what the going rate is for these fights now, but I'd guess it'd cost at least a million gil to hire enough people to finish both. Personally, when I was level 40, if you had told me to come up with a million gil, I would have laughed so hard I would have eventually passed out from lack of oxygen.

Also, we high levels tend to take it for granted that the up-and-coming players already have all the stuff they need or at least have a means to get it, because we tend to raise jobs that allow us to get the most out of what we have invested into our gear. That is to say, a high level DRK with an adaman hauberk would tend to want to raise WAR in order to get the most mileage out of that piece of equipment. Most of the people we see raising SMN already own a full set of elemental staves because they have some other mage job that requires them. The person leveling SMN as their first job though, has to come up with the gil to MAKE these purchases using the limited methods of gilmaking at their disposal. Yet another hinderance to their acquisition of Fenrir and Diabolos.

Anyway, I think most PTs would give SMNs that don't have these avatars a bit more leeway if they were up front about the fact that SMN is their highest-level job and they haven't been able to obtain these two elusive fellows yet. Yeah, you'll still encounter the occassional jerk who will call you a noob and want to kick you from the PT. On the whole though, people can be pretty understanding if they know what it is that they're supposed to be understanding about.

[Telera]

Anyway, I think most PTs would give SMNs that don't have these avatars a bit more leeway if they were up front about the fact that SMN is their highest-level job and they haven't been able to obtain these two elusive fellows yet. Yeah, you'll still encounter the occassional jerk who will call you a noob and want to kick you from the PT. On the whole though, people can be pretty understanding if they know what it is that they're supposed to be understanding about.

Agree completely with your entire post, but I've selected the end here to add my own experience to. In general, I think I have only been asked once or twice if I had Fenrir. Diabolos has actually never come up. When asked about Fenrir I simply was honest with the group, told them Summoner was my first job up, the highest I had, and that I was earnestly working on it, but no I didn't have it yet. They were all understanding and the leader said, "Use whatever you want then. You're a one woman army, pick what you want."

And that was the end of that. No one degraded me about it, it wasn't even mentioned again. Most parties don't even care to ask; I get the impression that most of them don't really care. If you have it, you do, if you don't, you don't. But like you said, you do get the occasional jerk whose memories have been clouded by too many days at 75. Though I think they were likely always jerks, it's rare that 75 magically transforms people, though I have seen it happen to some old friends.

[Altae]

I don't think it really matters if you're someone who possess a Lv60-75 job, or not. Whether if you can easily get help for avatars, or not.

Diabolos is not a very 'easy to get' avatar. You need to do a series of CoP missions which rarely happens at a public angle. Then you've got to beat him twice. Once for the missions and once more for the pact. And he's really vicious from what I've heard so far. So, your PT shouldn't even be bothering to ask you for Diabolos uses. From the sounds of it, that inquisitive guy just wants to fight side by side with Diabolos. Or, if he's the tank, maybe he wants periodic phalanx buffs.

Whatever the reason, you're directing your angst in the wrong direction here. Your angst should be more towards the fact that there are delinquents in your party making assumptions like that. The assumptions are natural occurrences for SMNs. Almost everyone will think you've got all the avatars since you've decided to play SMN (or at least the basic 7 including Carbuncle). Because almost everyone has that need to feel "complete" when playing SMN. "Oh, I have to have those avatars before I touch the SMN job." I'm not saying you're a poor player for not being like all these others. This is how the assumption is. Yes, it's silly.

It's just like with any other job. Mage-like jobs especially. "Do you have dispel? Do you have dispel? Do you have dispel?" Back then, most red mages couldn't afford dispel very easily. It costed some 69,000-ish gil I believe, if you purchase it from a vendor. But today, even the newest player can have heaps of gil at their expense. From a short while of farming or buying gil.

So, don't fret if you run into more of these juveniles. Keep playing SMN how ever much you want or like. You may not be a complete SMN yet, but you have what is needed to play the job class. A desire. And that'll eventually get you the help you need for the rest of your avatars. Whether it be a party of SMNs using carbuncle, a soloing RDM, or even a actual party itself, it'll come and you're bound to get your chances.

[Rakshaka]

Ultimate Terror can be fun. I pulled about 7 crabs in kuftal tunnel, then used ultimate terror on them. Instantly, you see a massive string of "Crab misses Diabolos" (I'm guessing all of the absorbed AGI and DEX created that fun little effect). Then I managed to whip out a 700 dmg camisado. The more mobs you have, the better the ability is. The only bad part is that it only lasts for a minute, and the stat boosts/drains gradually decrease in potency.

Edit: Response to previous posts mentioning usefulness of BPs.

[Sevv]

Ok imo

a first job smn
@32 Avatars (but fenrir and diabolos
@65-70 Fenrir
@74 diabolos

if you have a 75 or even 70+ job you should have them all by smn 20 lol. Now yes diabolos can be a pain to get, but there is a main thing here you are a smn and smn get asked and paid to do cop missions so you have no problem getting to diabolos mission wise now the prime is the only reason i give some slack on the level. Its more or less on average harder to find ppl to help on diabolos then it is to actaully fight him. And people who say why bother he isnt all that good, your just gimping ur self you need to be versitile. Take some pride in your job, suck it up and get your avatars or dont bitch that ppl want you to have them. Telera wouldnt level past 30 w/o her last two avatars because she has pride in being a smn, she busts her ass and is a better smn for it. Im an ass and elitest for saying it but i have respect and pride for my jobs =P

[Altae]

Refusing to level SMN past 30 isn't something I'd consider prideful. If you have a 75 job other than that 30SMN, couldn't you have refused to touch SMN at all until you've got all those avatars? Wouldn't that then be even MORE prideful?

You're forgetting one main important factor of FFXI here. You're paying to play. Not everyone who plays SMN can afford to throw 13 dollars away each month without worry. Don't tell me to senselessly throw your money away for pride in-game is also a kind of pride. Either go level SMN or don't. "Do or do not." -Yoda.

Someone wants to level their SMN to 30, fine. That's their choice. But to brag about pride and such, that's got nothing to do with job progression. Something like pride would only have effect in how a job is played. How you've equipped your character, how you use abilities and spells, how you use strategy against opponents. That's where pride should be.

Remember, EXP parties can also use SMNs as main healers rather than as a summoner. So, pride in terms of how a job is played well or poorly couldn't stop a summoner from leveling up.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

I can agree with the fact that not having all of your spells and skills available to you, and still playing the game anyway, is gimp and I don't agree with it one bit.

However, people do it anyway, that I'm fine with that.

But I draw the line at Fenrir. Acc/Evd is a strong buff to be missing out on in the 50's. And his BP at 65 is not to be ignored either. These items are strong stuff. They can help make or break xp / hour. If you're job starts to interfere w/xp/hour, then you're gimping the party. I don't care what kind of arguement, point of supposed validity, or opinion one may have. If you are bringing down xp / hour, then ..... I hate to be the one to tell you, but you're not being a team player.

That being said, alot of times, you hurt for a support role job and if a SMN w/o Fenrir is all you got available to you, then you gotta make it work.

It's all situational, but don't expect me to make nicey w/you if you're not coming to party with all your tools available to you.

It's similar to a DRG coming to party and never summoning his wyvern, or a DRK never using absorbs, or a WAR nevering casting Utsu, or a MNK never using his JA's cuz "he's lazy and his keyboard if 5 feet away." (Yes, I've heard that excuse.) Or a BLM never casting elemental debuffs, or a WHM never using SS+Blink+Flash, or a RDM never hasting -anyone- in party....... need I go on? lol

At any rate, Diabolos' abilities are ok. I won't berate a summoner for not having him in pt. I do not like it if the SMN doesn't at least have Fenrir. But eh... what do you do? Usually, you just gotta go on with it anyway...... optimal situations would, well, be quite optimal for performance.... but on average, most ppl just don't play "optimally." lol

[Telera]

Altae, I think you missed Boss' point. I don't have another 70+ job, so no, I did not want to level past 30 without finishing off my 'main' avatars. Yes, it was my pride, but it was a by and large lack of will to gimp a party by having only around half of even the basic set. Just because I picked a tentative point at which I wanted to obtain them the basic set, but not everything under the sun is not a bad thing. No, I'm not going to play this game by levelling something else to 75 to obtain it all. I was, however, going to put my advancement on hold until I felt satisfied that I could be more than a glorified heal tank. I'm not going to go into a party with less than even half what I should have. And I think all summoners would be better off if they at least had the decency to do the same. I *am* a first-job to 75 summoner, so no, I don't expect Fenrir or Diabolos. But there's mini-fights and if all else fails, friends who can do your primes for the rest.

I *chose* to stop levelling for a while, willingly and of my own volition. I have wanted to be a summoner since FF: Tactics and I *refuse* to half-ass the job. This is the only job I'm passionate about, the only one I even really care for. If you're saying that's a bad thing, well then I can say I truly don't give a damn about your opinion. I'm not asking it of any other summoner, and I really don't think that's what Boss meant by it. But yes, I think it does show that someone has pride in their job, not only summoner but any class, if they realize that at a certain point, they could be more and stop to obtain whatever does that for them. Plenty of DD classes stop to farm the money for Haubys, O kotes, and similar things. Why? They have pride in their job and they want to perform at the top of their game with that gear. Most of them are not going to ask the same of another, but to say it isn't pride, but just stubborness is wrong as well. If the person is working hard at obtaining something that will improve them, I think they should be praised for it, not torn down by others as you now seem intent upon doing.

I play just fine; I do also take pride in my gear and how I perform in the party. But performing in a party includes making an effort to get the things you're expected to have. They all fall hand in hand. I want to have what my party needs when they need it. If others don't do that, that's their choice. Yes, I think I'm a more dedicated summoner for stopping myself and forcing myself to finish something. Am I going to say everyone has to? Hell no. Am I going to say they have less pride in the job? No. Do I even give a damn? No. Would it have been more dedicated to take another job up to 70, first? Perhaps, but I would have quit the game. There's nothing else on it I can endure for the length of time spent. I don't get to level much, or quickly, and if I had done that, I wouldn't be a summoner even today.


Shin seems to have gotten the point that Boss was making: I was gimp. I was aware of the fact and I refused to continue on gimped. So I told myself "No farther, we're finishing this now." Once I obtained the rest of the Celestials, I carried on. Yes, there is more to your pride in your job than your spell list, but if a party needs something of me and I can't deliver *I* have failed them. And it's a waste of the time they are paying $13 a month for, as you pointed out, not everyone has the time to be wasting. I don't want to be the source of that waste.

I stopped at 60 until I obtained Fenrir. I worked hard at it, slowly getting my whispers together, and found a small group of summoners that would accompany me, and now I have it. Diabolos is harder to get, and I doubt I will 'stop' for him, but I have turned my attention now on getting to him so that if he's needed, he'll be there.

I think that's part of respecting yourself, your job, and the others around you. If its not, then I really don't want to see respect. And yes, I deeply respect my job. Alot of people aren't willing to stop to fix a gimp aspect, and you're saying it wasn't a good thing to have enough respect for myself to do that? I can't say I agree with you. I didn't 'try' to level summoner. Levelling isn't just EXP parties. It's preparing yourself for the road, and yes, I think that anyone who makes effort at their job *can* have a little bit of real life pride in themselves. Its better than the idiots our servers are filled with who do a job just for a HNM slot and don't bother to even show a remote bit of heart for what they are doing.

I swear, attitudes like this make me wonder why I even keep coming back to the game. No one can try to give themselves a sense of achievement without someone pointing out they could've done it this way, or that way, and they don't deserve to feel good about themselves. Good God, people.

RE: Post below. :p Probably worth clarification, I didn't 'pay' the summoners for Fenrir. They were all friends or acquaintences willing to help me out.

[Ruz]

It's all situational, but don't expect me to make nicey w/you if you're not coming to party with all your tools available to you.

It's similar to a DRG coming to party and never summoning his wyvern, or a DRK never using absorbs, or a WAR nevering casting Utsu, or a MNK never using his JA's cuz "he's lazy and his keyboard if 5 feet away." (Yes, I've heard that excuse.) Or a BLM never casting elemental debuffs, or a WHM never using SS+Blink+Flash, or a RDM never hasting -anyone- in party....... need I go on? lol

At any rate, Diabolos' abilities are ok. I won't berate a summoner for not having him in pt. I do not like it if the SMN doesn't at least have Fenrir. But eh... what do you do? Usually, you just gotta go on with it anyway...... optimal situations would, well, be quite optimal for performance.... but on average, most ppl just don't play "optimally." lol

This isn't the same thing as what you are talking about for many reasons, one word TANKS.

I will assume from your avatar that you know of this. NIN and PLD tank differently and honestly I can only do 1 ward BP per min. Now with a Nin that is SS, with a PLD I chose Shining Ruby. I am never invited to a party to just use BP, I will always heal either back up or main and even if I am not main i will remove status.

Fenrir is nice to have at lower levels but if you want to throw a word like pride around then you will have to recognize that some of us have pride to not just pay for the battles. That is leeching and it just shows that you have money, its not even as if you just asked a group of friends for help you instead ended up paying total strangers for a fight that you didnt need to do right away.

I do not have Diabolos yet, just finished Three Paths last night in CoP, SMN is my highest job at 69, and I am not short of money or good friends to take. The only reason I am putting it off is to participate in the fight myself.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

This isn't the same thing as what you are talking about for many reasons, one word TANKS.

I will assume from your avatar that you know of this. NIN and PLD tank differently and honestly I can only do 1 ward BP per min. Now with a Nin that is SS, with a PLD I chose Shining Ruby. I am never invited to a party to just use BP, I will always heal either back up or main and even if I am not main i will remove status.

Fenrir is nice to have at lower levels but if you want to throw a word like pride around then you will have to recognize that some of us have pride to not just pay for the battles. That is leeching and it just shows that you have money, its not even as if you just asked a group of friends for help you instead ended up paying total strangers for a fight that you didnt need to do right away.

I do not have Diabolos yet, just finished Three Paths last night in CoP, SMN is my highest job at 69, and I am not short of money or good friends to take. The only reason I am putting it off is to participate in the fight myself.

Oh my bad. You may not have understood what I meant. Here...

My point was this.

If you do not have all of your skills/spells/abilities/appropriate equipment with you when you play this game at the time of your level and job, then, I'm sorry, I deeply apologize, I wish you no ill-intentions, but your gimp. If you don't bring everything w/you to the table, then you're gimp. It doesn't mean your a bad person, it just means your job will sub-par. Now, that may or may not be your fault. You also may be able to situationally overcome your faults. Some ppl just play jobs, like SMN, from the gitgo and never get the high end pets. Fine. Just don't expect me to be all buddy-buddy w/you after I worked my butt off to get where I should be lol.

That's it.

So, if you are in a pt somewhere and someone asks if you have all your tools w/you and you say "^^;;; no i'm sorry i don't have HL friends," don't expect ppl to be nicey/nicey w/you. lol You're gonna get some backdraft. It's just nature. No one's wrong. The situation is just as it is, that's all.

Now, IMO, I -do not- like to party with -any- job, period, that is gimp. That is to say, that does not "bring all the tools available to the job to battle to use" to help the -team- get the highest xp / hour possible. Because, more often than not, everyone else ends up suffering needlessly. (or doing someone else's job) Again, I said I dislike this. It didn't mean I won't work with the situation.

Even further, I stated that its all "situational." So, for example, if a SMN is asked to main heal in pt, sure, fine, by all means go for it. I think its a really jacked up request to ask a SMN to main heal and I don't do it by practice, but a lot of ppl do. I think SMN is geared more for support healing than main healing. Therefore, I think SMN mainhealing can be gimp. Just my opinion, feel free to disagree.

At any rate, not having Fenrir after 54 really makes you less of a player. I mean, what if a BRD came to pt without Madrigal? I bet you can imagine "no one" would complain right? *leer* That acc boost is very helpful. I've never heard or seen it not be. When I played NIN, that evasion boost was sexy. You can't be a SMN in my pt and not give Evade up while I'm tanking and expect me to be hunky dory with it lol. That's not very nice. I liked to have it anytime a SMN was present in pt. It was incredibly helpful. Fenrir's Eclipse Bite is a 3 hit attack. It's strong at 65. What, does like 4-600 dmg range? For a BP at that level isn't that substantial? If you bring damage to a party and help kill a mob faster..... faster killing equates to more xp and over time.... a high xp / hour ratio. I mean.... who -doesn't- want that. -shrugs-

That's my point basically.

Now, onto some jargon:

SMN have excellent support abilities and can fire off nukes on a burst. If they spend all their time main-healing, they sacrifice alot of time doing their -real- job. This is an age old debate which I do not wish to pursue further, but let it be known, when I start pts, I ask RDMs or WHMs to main heal. If there are none around, I tend not to "try to throw some job crap together and see if it sticks."

Again, I feel SMN is geared for -ga support + bps. That's their strength. It should be optimized in a party, not minimized. If you play your SMN as a fulltime healer w/support abilites, yes, fine, it will work, you can manage, you can get by. Kinda degrades the SMN job if you ask me but that's the players business. Also, how many times have you seen a pld shoot from yellow to red hp in under a second and the SMN is in the middle of summoning Garuda for Hastega? lol Well whose gonna save the tank? SMN just get alot of strain put on themselves at this point. I don't feel its optimal. Plus, how many pts have you been in where the SMN just does nothing but spam Cure 3 all over the place and doesn't do anything else? They have their reasons, but I tend to feel mostly its because, "they can't effectively main heal and summon at the same time." Alot of times, SMNs get stuck in cure cycles, much like WHMs and RDMs do. Where then is the Hasetga? Where's the E.Howl?

Its obvious that the classes we play in the game are called "jobs," because, that's exactly what it is; a job. You have a pre-determined, set role you are expected to accomplish and that's it. There's basically no hidden agenda when it comes to this. Sure, alot of people play around with the subs to try to increase their potential, but the premise is the same. I like to play optimally. Sometimes, I like to micromanage. That's just me. Some people like to play like that fat, lazy, nerd dude on that Southpark WoW episode that sits back in his chair and spills doritos down his shirt and wears a wrist brace. More power to ya.....................

[Armando]

There is a BIG difference between a BRD not having Madrigal and a SMN not having Fenrir.

[Ruz]

Oh my bad. You may not have understood what I meant. Here...

...feel free to disagree.

I do disagree, I get it that you have to have everything perfect, some people are just naturally like that(I like to have some things perfect myself.) I just disagree with the notion of perfection.

I just do not understand that when I pointed out that SMN isn't just used for BP's and voiced my own oppinion that you decided to go off on a rant (it is a rant, you don't post something that long dissagreeing with a disagreement for it to not be a rant.) Is there something your trying to prove?

Back to the OP and topic of this thread Diabolos seems like an interesting avatar, I have yet to meet someone who asked me in an exp party if I have him (I don't.) Just don't worry about what others think when it comes to what you have yet, you have useful skills that a party would be happy to have, whatever your missing can be negated by party set-up and if you really have a huge problem then just make sure you have in your search comment that you do not have (Insert whatever here) avatar.

Players who want you to have everything maynot invite you but you won't have to worry about a missconception in your abilities.

[Shirai]

I'll just give my 2 gil as well.

As Shar said earlier, the majority of player in ffxi is currently leveling a second, third, fourth, whatever job/character having forgotten what a hard time they had getting their first job of the ground.

Now don't say you had an easy time and leveled the first job fast with topnotch gear all spells best food with incredible ease because then your either a big liar or a gilbuyer.

WHM was my first job I leveled and I had a very hard time keeping up with the demand.
I had Erase at level 51, I fished for more then 2 months straight without leveling just to get my light and dark staff.
I didn't have the best gear, I leveled in Artifact until level 72, switched to Errant and got the Blessed attire when I could afford it.
I didn't even have all the spells until I reached mid 60's, just the essentials.
Just getting the essentials took me weeks or even months of farming/fishing/teleporting.

Now let's take a deeper look at essentials summoner wise:
To get every single avatar in the game you need another job at 75 or be very lucky to leech the fights.
The essential Avatars are the 6 Celestial avatars, for those SE had implemented the level 20 solo battles.
These also provide you with the most useful and used Blood pacts.
At level 30 up to 65>70 and up you should at least have these, but I think everyone would agree to that.

Fenrir:
One of the trophies, by far not one of the essential avatars to have.
Fight: pretty tough he can easily rip apart even the most prepared party in an unsuspected moment.
Even the highest merited parties in the best gear can fall to him.
Usefulness: Decent,
Fenrir's buffs and debuffs are highly dependant on moon phase for their potency, but do have their uses at times.
Eclipse Bite is a very potent DD move but needs a lot of accuracy to land decently on VT+ monsters.
Need: not high, but handy to have in your 60's/70's which are the levels you can fight him.

Diabolos:
The other Trophy, I wouldn't even dare calling him a must have.
Fight: Incredibly hard even with a good setup.
Diabolos himself isn't too hard to get down but has 2 moves which can be very dangerous if they get through.
Nightmare: Sleeps the party and puts a powerful DoT on them. (Bio II and Poison II strength on players.)
When he gets that through he'll either rip you apart one at a time or the DoT slowly eats you to 0 HP.
Ruinous Omen: His 2 hour ability won't kill you but brings your party's health down to 75%, 50% or 25%, he can use this followed by a nightmare right away.
All his moves can be stunned, but if you miss even one stun or he resists, the fight can be considered over unless you are extremely lucky.
Usefulness: Less then decent.
A lot of his abilities will be hardly used, others have been replaced by job's meritable abilities.

Nightmare can be useful for crowd control as you get it sooner then Shiva's sleepga.
But Shiva's Sleepga is far more potent and useful when you get that.
Nether Blast is useful on kited monsters if you don't have any of the meritable Blood pacts yet, but most but a few endgame mobs resist it making it quite sucky damage/MP wise.

Ruinous omen is just plain pathetic.
Unlike the Astral Flow from other avatars Ruinous Omen is hardly as powerful as the others.
Unlike the Demi effect it has on players taking off a portion of their HP (25,50 or 75%) it just does magical darkness based damage on foes that also resist it most of the time.

I didn't get Diabolos until I was 73 summoner myself, nobody ever complained apart from that they'd want to see him in action.
Woohoo, even that is hardly worth to write home about.
These days, I hardly even bring out Diabolos anymore apart from buffing the BLMs or buffing the PLDs when fighting something big.

Need: not really, handy to have on kited monsters or monsters with extremely high defense.
But most kited mobs are also spellcaster, with practice you can time physical Blood pacts and even interupt casts if you're lucky.
And mobs with a real extreme high defense are very rare.

Don't be discouraged by those few elitist dogs that expect you to have everything.
Most people will be satisfied if you have the essentials and won't ask for more.

[Nazo]

I think summoner is distinct from all the other jobs in two very important ways:
Firstly it's the only 'advanced' job that really deserves the moniker; before the introduction of the trial-size fights it was a job that could only really be played by players who had already achieved high levels in another job. I think a lot of people still see it this way.

The other important distinction is that there with the avatars there isn't a pre-determined 'upgrade path' in the same way there is for other jobs, ie. you get spell x at level y and are pretty much expected to have that spell as early as you can. With avatars you can have them all at level 1 and I suspect a lot of people will want to get them all before they start seriously playing summoner, I for one certainly do.

So really you've got a clash of two different mindsets, one that says you oughtn't take up summoner unless you have another high level job that gets you all the avatars from the get-go and one that doesn't want to play another job to 75 just to be able to play the job they really want to play. Yes, those in the 2nd group pay their monthly fee and are entitled to play the job however they see fit, but then so do those in the first group and they are equally entitled to not want to play with those they deem will 'gimp' their party and xp.

I guess you've just got to accept that if you're a summoner without all the avatars some people are going to look down on you and you'll either have to suck it up or play with someone else. Neither group is likely to persuade the other group that their way is 'correct' because in a way they are both right and they are both wrong.

[SharMarali]

I guess I don't get this whole "Diabolos is necessary" thing. As Shirai pointed out, his usefulness is incredibly limited, in all reality. I was a 75 SMN when the Diabolos pact was released. I have to say, after getting him, I didn't feel the least bit cheated by not having had him throughout the levels. Because of the specific PT setups my Limbus/Sea linkshell uses for Proto-Ultima, I do wind up using Noctoshield a fair amount. That is because the linkshell has chosen to use two PLD/NIN tanks, two BRDs, a WHM, and a SMN in the tank PT. So I put Noctoshield on them every few minutes when it wears off, and I keep Stoneskin on them as much as I can in the meantime. If the linkshell had felt that it would be more beneficial to put a RDM in place of one of the BRDs, then obviously the RDM would be using Phalanx II and I'd just be spamming Earthen Ward. That's not the game plan right now, so I use Diabolos.

I actually use Diabolos for sky gods too. A lot of people have said that the meritable blood pacts deal stronger damage. That hasn't been my experience at all, so I'm curious, did you guys merit the same blood pact multiple times? Do you have the luxury of allowing the avatar to stay out and gain 100% TP before you use the pact? There has got to be something different that you guys are doing, because mine always get resisted rather nastily and I wind up just sticking with Nether Blast.

Except for these two situations, I don't really use Diabolos at all. And I'd hardly expect a level 40ish SMN to be thinking ahead to sky and Proto-Ultima when determining whether to play the job or not, because that's a LONG way off.

Fenrir IS very useful and I AM very glad I had him from level 37 onward. When I first picked up the SMN job, I took it from 1 to 37 as an alternate SJ for my RDM (which I used a couple of times situationally and haven't used since), and Fenrir had *just* been released as a pact, so nobody was really willing to go with me to fight him. I leveled from 1-37 in a static PT of people who had high-level jobs already, and they said that if they really cared that much about me having Fenrir, we'd go fight him. They didn't, so we didn't. At that time, I didn't have any intention of leveling SMN any further. But, about a year later, I ended up getting Fenrir anyway because a friend of mine roped me into helping out with the fight. Once I had him, I thought "well, it'd be a waste to have the pact and never use it.." so I decided to level SMN for a couple of levels.

The funny thing is, a lot of people requested for me to use Fenrir... But he didn't have any useful pacts for about 10 levels after I picked up SMN again. So basically, they were requesting him just to see him and go "Look, our SMN has Fenrir! Ha-ha!" At that time, it was still fairly rare for a low level SMN to have Fenrir, and people were only requesting for me to summon him just to show off a trophy, that they were in a PT with a level 37 SMN who *did* have him. It annoyed me, to be honest, because I was there to do my job to the best of my abilities, not to show off a dog that was useless at that level.

Fenrir doesn't become terribly useful until the late 40's, and even then, he's not REALLY useful until 55. I wouldn't fault a SMN for not worrying about him at all until 55, because it's just not that critical. It'd be like expecting a PLD to have staff skill leveled for tanking at level 25. OK, I guess you could make an argument for completeness, but come on, staff tanking doesn't even come in to play until 51 when the Earth staff is equippable, and it's much, much later before PLD gets Spirit Taker to make staff tanking REALLY useful.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

I do disagree, I get it that you have to have everything perfect, some people are just naturally like that(I like to have some things perfect myself.) I just disagree with the notion of perfection.

I just do not understand that when I pointed out that SMN isn't just used for BP's and voiced my own oppinion that you decided to go off on a rant (it is a rant, you don't post something that long dissagreeing with a disagreement for it to not be a rant.) Is there something your trying to prove?

Back to the OP and topic of this thread Diabolos seems like an interesting avatar, I have yet to meet someone who asked me in an exp party if I have him (I don't.) Just don't worry about what others think when it comes to what you have yet, you have useful skills that a party would be happy to have, whatever your missing can be negated by party set-up and if you really have a huge problem then just make sure you have in your search comment that you do not have (Insert whatever here) avatar.

Players who want you to have everything maynot invite you but you won't have to worry about a missconception in your abilities.

You continue to misconstrue my words and my meaning. So, I apologize if you feel any certain way about my post. However, be that as it may, let's end that part of the discussion because its like unto silk; the fabric is eye-catching, but easily slips within one's grasp.

I don't portend, rather yet, do I even asseverate the notion of elitist-ism (which isn't even a word, but you know how slang works.) By definition, elitist-ism, per popular culture that I am aware of, is the belief of a group of individuals that feels superior in all ways and portrays an attitude of hierarchical expertise, while displaying aversive attitudes towards those of the "defunct in skill." Such individuals rarely associate themselves with the ideas of teamwork and cammaraderie that's necessary in, what I would call, an ideal party experience. Elitists are quite adept at rattling the cages of the others and spreading a bogus sense of community.

Now, I will admit, I have been playing for over 3 years. That's neither here nor there, however. When I play, I play for fun, with kindness, and usually with little time. I do -not- play with an elitist attitude. So crash your reservations and assertations of such upon the rocky shores of -that- conversation and leave them there.

I'll repeat myself.

I don't like the idea of people coming to party without all of the tools necessary to accomplish the task at hand. However, I end up working with the situation and it turns out to be fun, usually. However, there are times when someone missing a particular tool has cost the party to pay for it. So my idea is, why be a part of a group and lack in your skills? Is that really cool to other ppl?

I played WHM as my first job. When I hit level 32, I needed to get Erase. At that time, it cost 300k on the AH. It may as well been 10mil, because I couldn't afford it. Well, I tried to play whm for a few levels until 36 when I got teleports and realized, "I really need this spell." There were times when ppl needed to get rid of evasion down and bio and stuff.

SO...

... I got with friends in my LS and farmed. I also participated in some bcnms. It took me about 2 weeks to get enough gil up to buy erase. The funny thing about it was, my friends ended up offering to take me and help me get Erase since we all played alot together, so I ended up getting it for free from my friends. That rocked.

So why can't ppl work their way up a job? What makes someone else so special that they don't need to bring all their tools to the table? This is a normal, general, valid question. Why not just play another job until you can get HL to get Fenrir and Diabolos. I mean, you're missing out on some of the fun of enjoying the two avatars. Now granted, I'll accept the fact ppl feel they are trophies. I just disagree. They have valid uses and can make a difference in party. Yes I'm fully aware the accuracy of E.howl is not congruent w/blade madrigal. That's not in question. What's in question is, if your skill has the ability to make or break a party, why come to party -without it?- lol

I just don't think its cool to play in a team atmosphere and come to it with half of your abilities and expecting everyone to be hunky dory with it. I mean, when a time comes that you need something from someone else's job and they can't provide it "simply because they haven't gotten it yet," I mean, the idea is simplistic, it's not very friendly. FF11 is a game of being forced to network with others. If you aren't making yourself a team player, then you're liable to get trademarked quickly as "one of those players that does whatever they want at the expense of others." I've seen it too many times. And its a valid situation.

There is another mmorpg most ppl will be familiar with called "WoW." Now, in that game, its more cartoony, geared toward a younger audience, and requires less than impeccable amounts of time and work to accomplish a goal or foster any skill. The mindset on that game is quite lacking, because I've played it. I much rather prefer FF11 because #1.) its more conservative, 2.) more mature in storyline (but debatable in articulate content) and 3.) move invovling and deeply rooted, starting out to finish.

I don't like the approach of copious amounts of sophomoric attitudes when it comes to things. But, the general player base of mmo's these days are geared towards that it seems. It sucks, I deal with it, life goes on, right? So, when I get a chance to express, someone may feel the same. If not, no problemo..... if you just play the game to log on, get xp, and log off, and not care about any other situations other than that, more power to ya. Just don't expect everyone to be hunky dory w/your playstyle.

Anyway, taking a microsopic look at the 2 avatars at hand, Fenrir and Diabolos, one can form several opinions. The one that sticks out in my mind is this: I've been in several parties where the evasion boost was a godsend for IT+ monsters on my nin. It -really- made my job alot easier and helped save me a few times in casting a bunch of utsu. I've been in parties where a very under equipped war, who war was his first job, had horrid gear and questionable accuracy. Fenrir made those situations smoother w/the E.howl thing. I mean, sure the acc was still lacking for the war, but that didn't mean e.howl was worthless towards him. However, I'm willing to back up on E.howl. Going by my feelings, I've just never seen it to -not- work effectively in party.

Now then, do NINs these days usually gear up w/a sheet load of evasion to help them in their job. Sure. Do wars usually equip sushi and att gear to get by in their situation? Sure. But, the undeniable fact remains, that.... Fenrir's E.Howl still has the ability to help in situations where warranted and needed. So, to come to a party without it, when, let's say, you have underequipped jobs that could benefit from it, is gimp. Now... again, repeating myself, do ppl still get by with it. Sure. Do ppl just go on with it and live and let live? Yes. That doesn't mean it still doesn't suxx0rz because you're forced to put up with it.

So the original statement was about not wanting ppl to backlash oneself for not having an ability. Well, that's a ridiculous notion. Wouldn't you think? I couldn't think of being more on topic than discussing the original intent.

I guess I just take my game playing serious. I dunno, sorry? If I wanted to go play a frivilous, high-energy game, I'd go play Super Mario Kart. Anyway, its fine that people still party and do what they want and get by. There's nothing wrong with a get-by attitude, until it causes a mishap. Then that sux. But, eh.... peoples is peoples. They'll do whatever they want regardless of logical or illogical thinking.

I hate it when words are taken out of context, btw lol.

[Shirai]

I guess I don't get this whole "Diabolos is necessary" thing. As Shirai pointed out, his usefulness is incredibly limited, in all reality. I was a 75 SMN when the Diabolos pact was released. I have to say, after getting him, I didn't feel the least bit cheated by not having had him throughout the levels. Because of the specific PT setups my Limbus/Sea linkshell uses for Proto-Ultima, I do wind up using Noctoshield a fair amount. That is because the linkshell has chosen to use two PLD/NIN tanks, two BRDs, a WHM, and a SMN in the tank PT. So I put Noctoshield on them every few minutes when it wears off, and I keep Stoneskin on them as much as I can in the meantime. If the linkshell had felt that it would be more beneficial to put a RDM in place of one of the BRDs, then obviously the RDM would be using Phalanx II and I'd just be spamming Earthen Ward. That's not the game plan right now, so I use Diabolos.

Oh Diabolos definately has it's uses, but as a whole I'm kind of disapointed in his usefulness.

I actually use Diabolos for sky gods too. A lot of people have said that the meritable blood pacts deal stronger damage. That hasn't been my experience at all, so I'm curious, did you guys merit the same blood pact multiple times? Do you have the luxury of allowing the avatar to stay out and gain 100% TP before you use the pact? There has got to be something different that you guys are doing, because mine always get resisted rather nastily and I wind up just sticking with Nether Blast.

Depends on which you use on what god, I just merited them all and have a considereble amount of skill over cap.
As you have noticed perhaps, Nether blast gets resisted by the lesser gods.
On Genbu Thunderstorm does considerably more damage then Nether Blast does.
About 100/150 more.

On the other gods I use physical Blood pacts, on Kirin also.
My Predator Claws has a 90% landing rate on him and most of the time outdamages Nether Blast.
It's a gamble as Kirin can move during the command or the chance of missing entirely.
But I'm willing to take it.

[SharMarali]

Anyway, taking a microsopic look at the 2 avatars at hand, Fenrir and Diabolos, one can form several opinions. The one that sticks out in my mind is this: I've been in several parties where the evasion boost was a godsend for IT+ monsters on my nin. It -really- made my job alot easier and helped save me a few times in casting a bunch of utsu. I've been in parties where a very under equipped war, who war was his first job, had horrid gear and questionable accuracy. Fenrir made those situations smoother w/the E.howl thing. I mean, sure the acc was still lacking for the war, but that didn't mean e.howl was worthless towards him. However, I'm willing to back up on E.howl. Going by my feelings, I've just never seen it to -not- work effectively in party.


OK, I want to zero in on this one point of your post, because it's the one I really don't understand at all. Yes, I read the entire thing, and yes, I know that you said that MOST WARs come to the table with a decent amount of +ACC gear and sushi and whatnot, and what you're speaking of in the above paragraph is the exception.

So the question I pose to you is, if you were in a PT with a WAR who was wearing incredibly crappy equipment (for the sake of argument, let's just say full AF, tiger rings, you know, total junk) and a SMN who did not have Fenrir... Who exactly would be at fault for the WAR's lousy accuracy? I don't think it's the SMN.

Fenrir's stat boosts, both howl AND growl, are meant to enhance a player's existing stats, assuming that the player gave enough of a flying crap to put some thought and effort into their equipment. He's NOT meant to be used to give DDs a free pass to wear a bunch of garbage equipment because hey, that SMN should be able to give me accuracy.

The argument that a SMN should have avatars that are extremely difficult to get at lower levels in order to compensate for DDs who are just plain too lazy to farm the necessary gil to obtain accuracy equipment seems silly to me. That's like saying a WHM absolutely MUST own a Vermillion cloak the minute he or she reaches level 59, just in case he finds himself in a PT with a RDM who doesn't feel like casting refresh. While a v.cloak is an extremely helpful piece of equipment for a WHM to have from 59 through 67, it is, by no means, NECESSARY. Which is my argument about Fenrir and Diabolos as well. They (okay, mostly Fenrir) are extremely useful to have, certainly. But NECESSARY? Not really.

There's a big, big, big difference between, say, a NIN that doesn't have Utsusemi: Ni and a SMN who doesn't have Diabolos. One cannot do their job at all. The other can, but maybe not exactly the way you, personally, want them to.

[Telera]

So why can't ppl work their way up a job? What makes someone else so special that they don't need to bring all their tools to the table? This is a normal, general, valid question. Why not just play another job until you can get HL to get Fenrir and Diabolos. I mean, you're missing out on some of the fun of enjoying the two avatars.

Well, as one of the people who didn't work up to a HL on another job, let me give you my reason for not doing so:

I simply don't have the time. If you look at my profile, you will see I am level 60 summoner. As anyone who knows me or has seen me post regularly will attest to, I have been 60 since before last Halloween. Part of this was wanting to get Fenrir before continuing, but the majority of it was a massive burn out on the game and community, coupled with the massive schedule shake up that comes with working Retail during the holiday season. My static partner (my b/f) and I couldn't find times that worked for both of us, and we were both just sort of sick of the entire deal.

To be honest with you, aside from Summoner there is probably only one job I would take to 75 and enjoy it. That would be Dragoon. Dragoons, however, are useless in a conventional pt against Fenrir, so I would still be up against a similar situation I was placed in as a 60 Summoner: inability to really fight the thing. I would still have had to find either a group of summoners, or struggle through consistent failures with a 'regular' party.

And in continuing my blunt honesty, if I had been forced into levelling another job before summoner all the way to 70+, not only would I still not have achieved that goal, but I would have gotten very disheartened and bored and would have quit the game long ago. And when I say I will quit a game, I do. I left SWG the day the NGE nerf came down. I don't blow smoke when I say things like that; if I say it, I mean it.

There simply isn't enough of a passion in me for any of the other jobs. Definitely not enough of one to do it to 70 and do it well.

To those who do level another job first, I salute them. But it just wouldn't have fit my time constraints. I have Fenrir at 60, which is a general area in which he starts to become what I would deem 'necessary.' Diabolos, however, as other more knowledgable Summoners have attested to, is only useful in distinct circumstances. Not to say I won't get him, but I'm definitely in no rush.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

OK, I want to zero in on this one point of your post, because it's the one I really don't understand at all. Yes, I read the entire thing, and yes, I know that you said that MOST WARs come to the table with a decent amount of +ACC gear and sushi and whatnot, and what you're speaking of in the above paragraph is the exception.

So the question I pose to you is, if you were in a PT with a WAR who was wearing incredibly crappy equipment (for the sake of argument, let's just say full AF, tiger rings, you know, total junk) and a SMN who did not have Fenrir... Who exactly would be at fault for the WAR's lousy accuracy? I don't think it's the SMN.

Fenrir's stat boosts, both howl AND growl, are meant to enhance a player's existing stats, assuming that the player gave enough of a flying crap to put some thought and effort into their equipment. He's NOT meant to be used to give DDs a free pass to wear a bunch of garbage equipment because hey, that SMN should be able to give me accuracy.

The argument that a SMN should have avatars that are extremely difficult to get at lower levels in order to compensate for DDs who are just plain too lazy to farm the necessary gil to obtain accuracy equipment seems silly to me. That's like saying a WHM absolutely MUST own a Vermillion cloak the minute he or she reaches level 59, just in case he finds himself in a PT with a RDM who doesn't feel like casting refresh. While a v.cloak is an extremely helpful piece of equipment for a WHM to have from 59 through 67, it is, by no means, NECESSARY. Which is my argument about Fenrir and Diabolos as well. They (okay, mostly Fenrir) are extremely useful to have, certainly. But NECESSARY? Not really.

There's a big, big, big difference between, say, a NIN that doesn't have Utsusemi: Ni and a SMN who doesn't have Diabolos. One cannot do their job at all. The other can, but maybe not exactly the way you, personally, want them to.

Their both at fault. That's blantantly obvious. There wasn't an assimiliation of such as what you are referring to. I just simply won't sway my opinion. I think if you're going to play SMN for 75 levels w/o Fenrir or Diabolos, you're gimp and potentially going to come across times where you could have used Fenrir most of all and his buffs could assist the party. Diablos not so much, but whose to really say Phalanx can't help dot mitigation over time for a tank?

The thing about Vermillion Cloak, while builds an interesting point, is not a spell or ability. It's a piece of equipment and is not on the same platform as what two avatars w/a range of abilities provides.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Well, as one of the people who didn't work up to a HL on another job, let me give you my reason for not doing so:

I simply don't have the time. If you look at my profile, you will see I am level 60 summoner. As anyone who knows me or has seen me post regularly will attest to, I have been 60 since before last Halloween. Part of this was wanting to get Fenrir before continuing, but the majority of it was a massive burn out on the game and community, coupled with the massive schedule shake up that comes with working Retail during the holiday season. My static partner (my b/f) and I couldn't find times that worked for both of us, and we were both just sort of sick of the entire deal.

To be honest with you, aside from Summoner there is probably only one job I would take to 75 and enjoy it. That would be Dragoon. Dragoons, however, are useless in a conventional pt against Fenrir, so I would still be up against a similar situation I was placed in as a 60 Summoner: inability to really fight the thing. I would still have had to find either a group of summoners, or struggle through consistent failures with a 'regular' party.

And in continuing my blunt honesty, if I had been forced into levelling another job before summoner all the way to 70+, not only would I still not have achieved that goal, but I would have gotten very disheartened and bored and would have quit the game long ago. And when I say I will quit a game, I do. I left SWG the day the NGE nerf came down. I don't blow smoke when I say things like that; if I say it, I mean it.

There simply isn't enough of a passion in me for any of the other jobs. Definitely not enough of one to do it to 70 and do it well.

To those who do level another job first, I salute them. But it just wouldn't have fit my time constraints. I have Fenrir at 60, which is a general area in which he starts to become what I would deem 'necessary.' Diabolos, however, as other more knowledgable Summoners have attested to, is only useful in distinct circumstances. Not to say I won't get him, but I'm definitely in no rush.

That's cool. I can feel you on this.

However, you're not complaining when people think that you are gimp for not having the avatars. I respect this.

It's the ppl that want their "cake and eat it to" that I dissapprove of. lol

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Per FFxicylopedia.com:

Blade Madrigal

Stacks with other Madrigal effects.
+27 Accuracy at combined skill 454-471.
+28 Accuracy at combined skill 472-488.
Traversiere +1 adds +4 Accuracy

Sword Madrigal

Stacks with other Madrigal effects.
Caps at +15 Accuracy.
+12 at 225 skill (w/o instrument).
+13 at 239 skill (w/o instrument).
Traversiere +1 adds +4 Accuracy

Concerning Ecliptic Howl:

Total increase in accuracy and evasion are equal to +26, but the exact amounts vary by moon phase.
Full Moon indicates greatest increase in accuracy. New Moon indicates largest increase in evasion.


Someone made note that there was a significant difference between the two abilities.

Difference, yes. Significant, no. It's apparent the ability can be quite useful.

[SharMarali]

Their both at fault. That's blantantly obvious. There wasn't an assimiliation of such as what you are referring to. I just simply won't sway my opinion. I think if you're going to play SMN for 75 levels w/o Fenrir or Diabolos, you're gimp and potentially going to come across times where you could have used Fenrir most of all and his buffs could assist the party. Diablos not so much, but whose to really say Phalanx can't help dot mitigation over time for a tank?
The thing about Vermillion Cloak, while builds an interesting point, is not a spell or ability. It's a piece of equipment and is not on the same platform as what two avatars w/a range of abilities provides.

I hope you don't think this is some kind of attack or whatever. I think it's interesting to have a real debate with somebody with a completely differing opinion from my own and who actually put intelligent thought behind what they said, so I want to take advantage of it while I can have a conversation that doesn't degenerate into "You're a noob! No, you are!"

I disagree that the summoner is at fault for the hypothetical warrior's lousy accuracy. What is the warrior going to do if he's in a PT where the backline is WHM RDM BLM? None of them can boost his accuracy. Everybody is responsible for bringing their own game to the table. If you feel that the summoner failed by not having Fenrir, then you must at least agree that the warrior failed twice as hard by wearing garbage when his ONLY responsibility is to play the damage dealer role. The summoner can, at least, give hastega and earthen ward and various other buffs, as well as dealing some damage as needed. What is the warrior going to do? Stand there and go "You guys kill it, I'm gonna go smoke."

I leveled summoner to 75 without Diabolos. Why? He didn't exist yet. The Diabolos pact was released after I was already a 75 summoner. Does that mean I was gimp and didn't even know it? Should everybody put raising summoner on hold until they're SURE that SE has released all the avatars they're ever going to release? Lots of rumors lately about Phoenix and Odin, you know.

As for the vermillion cloak argument... Yeah, I agree, it is a piece of equipment and not a spell or ability. But equipment is important to. Take that hypothetical warrior as an example. WARs automatically get all their non-meritable JAs as their level increases. They don't have spells. Their job is to buy decent equipment. I'm not saying they HAVE to have the A#1, top-of-the line stuff. But they should put effort and thought into their gear. There's plenty of equipment that does +acc and +atk without costing an arm and a leg, and they should save up for some of the nicer pieces when it's reasonable for them to do so. I think most people would agree.

So why, then, does the summoner have an expectation to get the A#1, top of the line spell list, even when most people are in agreement that Diabolos isn't entirely necessary? To me, that's akin to telling a WAR that they *have* to have a haubergeon. Most WARs choose to get one ANYWAY, but I've PTed with a few who use that level 55 body piece (sorry I have no idea what it's called) and do reasonably well. I'm not talking about endgame WARs, mind you, but ones in the 60's.

As far as spells go... Do you feel that a BRD, in order to be effective, needs to have Scop's Operetta, Fowl Aubade, Goblin Gavotte, Gold Capriccio, and Shining Fantasia? Have you EVER seen a BRD cast one of those songs? Most BRDs have them, just because they're relatively inexpensive, but would you be angry if you were in a PT with a BRD that DIDN'T? Does a RDM need to have all of the self-target bar- spells, and if they're missing some, would you feel that they have no right to be PTing? Do BLUs need to get *every* *single* *one* of their spells to PT, even though a lot of them require more effort to obtain than the spell is even worth? A lot of BLUs go out at 75 and pick up all the spells they missed in the 50's and 60's now that their soloing abilities are up for it. Were they gimp?

Further, does a WHM need to have BLM, RDM, SMN, and BRD all leveled as SJs in order to seek a PT? Situationally, all of these SJs can prove useful. I think most WHMs who have only BLM or only SMN leveled do just fine. Should a WAR be required to raise MNK and SAM as potential SJs, even though they're unlikely to ever be called upon to use them?

I could go on and on, but really, the point is, there is a difference between a necessary tool to bring to a PT and one that is mostly just for show and "completeness." Is a SMN without Fenrir and Diabolos complete? Nah. Neither is one without all 8 spirits. Should they be told that they're not allowed to play SMN without them? I don't think so.

[Nazo]

Slightly off topic but my LS had a crack at getting Diabolos Prime last night for one of our budding smns. WHM, RDM, BLM, NIN, THF, SAM (all 75 except sam who is 70ish). We wiped 3 times, though we came close on the last try. I feel your pain having to get this guy.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

I hope you don't think this is some kind of attack or whatever. I think it's interesting to have a real debate with somebody with a completely differing opinion from my own and who actually put intelligent thought behind what they said, so I want to take advantage of it while I can have a conversation that doesn't degenerate into "You're a noob! No, you are!"

I apologize. The internet is vastly inferior when it comes to delegating inflection of tone. No, I thought of none such as what you speak of, irrevocably.

I disagree that the summoner is at fault for the hypothetical warrior's lousy accuracy. What is the warrior going to do if he's in a PT where the backline is WHM RDM BLM? None of them can boost his accuracy. Everybody is responsible for bringing their own game to the table. If you feel that the summoner failed by not having Fenrir, then you must at least agree that the warrior failed twice as hard by wearing garbage when his ONLY responsibility is to play the damage dealer role. The summoner can, at least, give hastega and earthen ward and various other buffs, as well as dealing some damage as needed. What is the warrior going to do? Stand there and go "You guys kill it, I'm gonna go smoke."

I meant that, I blame both individuals for not bringing their A-game. Now the term A-game apparently is vastly differing in alot of peoples opinions as to what it encompases. For me, I derive such as bringing all the tools/equipment necessary to get the highest xp / hour and compensate for when there is a party member with illegitimate tools/equipment him/herself. This a team atmosphere. Yes, you're forced to team with strangers. So why not make the most of it? I don't see a reason why its ok for someone to come to this kind of situation without everything they can potentially have AND when it proves those things can make or break a situation. The idea that not having said tools/equipment just because of some inconveniences in obtaining them, I mean no offense to the world, is just an excuse, to me. But, eh, ppl play the game the way they want regardless and then someone else has to pick up the slack. That's called bringing your B-game. Do ppl get by in life w/playing a B-game. Of course. I just abhor B-game. lol

I leveled summoner to 75 without Diabolos. Why? He didn't exist yet. The Diabolos pact was released after I was already a 75 summoner. Does that mean I was gimp and didn't even know it? Should everybody put raising summoner on hold until they're SURE that SE has released all the avatars they're ever going to release? Lots of rumors lately about Phoenix and Odin, you know.

No, that was never in question. The idea should not be brought up. But to answer your question, no absolutely not. That does not factor into "this" conversation. I mean, to think otherwise is silly. But again, that was not in question.

As for the vermillion cloak argument... Yeah, I agree, it is a piece of equipment and not a spell or ability. But equipment is important to. Take that hypothetical warrior as an example. WARs automatically get all their non-meritable JAs as their level increases. They don't have spells. Their job is to buy decent equipment. I'm not saying they HAVE to have the A#1, top-of-the line stuff. But they should put effort and thought into their gear. There's plenty of equipment that does +acc and +atk without costing an arm and a leg, and they should save up for some of the nicer pieces when it's reasonable for them to do so. I think most people would agree.

Well on this line of thinking, if equipment is important to bring and keep top of the line, why wouldn't BPs be important. I think SMN's should work on getting all the avatars, especially if the avatar proves useful. I just guess ppl have a different opinion on how useful Fenrir and Diabolos are. I just have been in situations where, when a SMN had them, it recovered a partys xp / hour situation. But, that's my logic. Not everyone wants the most out of their xp / hour. I just hate to waste my time in parties.

So why, then, does the summoner have an expectation to get the A#1, top of the line spell list, even when most people are in agreement that Diabolos isn't entirely necessary? To me, that's akin to telling a WAR that they *have* to have a haubergeon. Most WARs choose to get one ANYWAY, but I've PTed with a few who use that level 55 body piece (sorry I have no idea what it's called) and do reasonably well. I'm not talking about endgame WARs, mind you, but ones in the 60's.

Ok, so you're making the correltion of the effectiveness of Haubergeon vs things like E.Howl and Phalanxga. You cannot do such. Haubergeon does not immediately affect 6 people. It affects one. That's immediately apparent. Haubergeon can't make five other ppl suddenly hit better. It will one. That's not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is: Fenrir and Diabolos abilites can increase party effectiveness. IMO, its significant. IMOPO, it is not significant. I've seen too many situations where a SMN not having Fenrir made the party gimp. That's the logic I'm pulling from. Are there a myriad of multiple situations where a SMN not having Fenrir is not gimp? Yes of course. Is there an excuse for a SMN not having Fenrir "because its HL and I don't want to be HL first before I get it?" No, I don't feel so. While I appreciate your idea, there's simply no basis for comparison on that logic.

As far as spells go... Do you feel that a BRD, in order to be effective, needs to have Scop's Operetta, Fowl Aubade, Goblin Gavotte, Gold Capriccio, and Shining Fantasia? Have you EVER seen a BRD cast one of those songs? Most BRDs have them, just because they're relatively inexpensive, but would you be angry if you were in a PT with a BRD that DIDN'T? Does a RDM need to have all of the self-target bar- spells, and if they're missing some, would you feel that they have no right to be PTing? Do BLUs need to get *every* *single* *one* of their spells to PT, even though a lot of them require more effort to obtain than the spell is even worth? A lot of BLUs go out at 75 and pick up all the spells they missed in the 50's and 60's now that their soloing abilities are up for it. Were they gimp?

See again, this is where we get into the perception of "is Fenrir and Diabolos THAT effective?" I think they are. Some ppl don't and think they're trophies. I say bollocks to those individuals, and I've stated my reasons.

Otherwise, I see what you are trying to say, but again, this doesn't work either. The effectiveness of a buff that prevents silence vs a buff that increases accuracy is not on the same level.

I'll go further though to say, in Caedarva Mire, I was in a PT a week ago where the bard was using the silence buff to keep an Imps Silencega off the party. It worked pretty effectively in that situation. Had the BRD not had it, sure we could have gotten by..... but we would have been a little more gimper for the wiser.

Further, does a WHM need to have BLM, RDM, SMN, and BRD all leveled as SJs in order to seek a PT? Situationally, all of these SJs can prove useful. I think most WHMs who have only BLM or only SMN leveled do just fine. Should a WAR be required to raise MNK and SAM as potential SJs, even though they're unlikely to ever be called upon to use them?

I'll use your term "situationally." Situationally, YES, you're sub and/or lack-there-of, can be either devastating or blessing to a party and its situation and its XP / HOUR. But, again, we get into gravity and weight of ideas. The gravity between a WAR not having SAM as a SJ is quite less than that of having MNK or NIN. I like you're correlations, but you keep missing the key word and that is gravity. It's not such a big deal if a WAR doesn't have SAM subbed, versus having NIN or MNK. It's not such a big deal if a WHM has BLM only subbed and leveld, and not RDM or BRD. SMN is quite more beneficial to WHM sub IMO, and as long as you have BLM subbed, sure np, you're good to go. I just smiply disagree with what you're saying here about these ideas.

I could go on and on, but really, the point is, there is a difference between a necessary tool to bring to a PT and one that is mostly just for show and "completeness." Is a SMN without Fenrir and Diabolos complete? Nah. Neither is one without all 8 spirits. Should they be told that they're not allowed to play SMN without them? I don't think so.

I don't subscribe to any ideas or notions of "prettyness, cuteness, completeness, and trophyness." I subscrbie to the fact that, I've been in parties where Fenrir and Diabolos made a big difference and I'm sticking to it. I will use the term gimp if you do not have these. But again, I want to stress this important fact: do I work w/these situations? yes. do I outright call ppl gimp because of it? no..... Do I detest someone saying "I don't have Fenrir or Diabolos plz don't call me gimp and let me join your party so I can potentially be as sub-par and second rate and bring my b-game like the rest of the ppl that play ff11 while the ppl that bring their a-game get to carry the slack?" .... what do you think?

[Telera]

That's cool. I can feel you on this.

However, you're not complaining when people think that you are gimp for not having the avatars. I respect this.

It's the ppl that want their "cake and eat it to" that I dissapprove of. lol

Oh, I agree. And as Shar said, I hope you didn't think I was ranting at you. Cuz as she also said, it's rare to find someone to debate this that doesn't devolve it into 'omgnub!!!!eleventy'. That was just my honest explanation for my path. I find most people can respect that, especially if you're calm and rational about it.

Also, yes, I called myself gimp for lacking Fenny. XD And while no one said it personally to my face, I would have agreed with them had they said so. At least around level 55, or had I continued past 60 without Fenrir.

People who want their cake and eat it too (I love that line, lol), on any job, make a bad reputation for it in general. I know there are exceptions, first time summoner needs time to get Fenrir, but it can be done by 55/60, where I think one really should have it. Other jobs might have some exceptions, too. Back when Erase was super expensive, I never expected it of the WHMs until the later 30s. Especially if that was their first job. Myself, I farmed for it before I dinged 32 and had it ready. But it was only 300k when I bought it, not the half a mil+ some poor WHMs had to pay. I'm sure there are lots more 'exception' abilities, I just have little knowledge of jobs outside of WHM, SMN, WAR, and DRG. But no, I don't think a first job SMN should reasonably be expected to have Fenny until 55 or 60 range. Second job SMN, well... that's a whole other kettle. And Diabolos I know little about, save that he seems to be very situational. And again, I salute those who choose to take another job to 70+ first, that way they can start SMN with at least Fenrir, if not Diabolos, too. It just isn't for everyone.

As for spirits, Light dropped when I got my Mitts, but the THF that a friend had brought to help us said he 'needed' it, so I felt it would be a good way to repay him. My friend told me later, the guy only sold it and I should have taken it irregardless. So I still don't own Light or Dark.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Oh, I agree. And as Shar said, I hope you didn't think I was ranting at you. Cuz as she also said, it's rare to find someone to debate this that doesn't devolve it into 'omgnub!!!!eleventy'. That was just my honest explanation for my path. I find most people can respect that, especially if you're calm and rational about it.

Also, yes, I called myself gimp for lacking Fenny. XD And while no one said it personally to my face, I would have agreed with them had they said so. At least around level 55, or had I continued past 60 without Fenrir.

People who want their cake and eat it too (I love that line, lol), on any job, make a bad reputation for it in general. I know there are exceptions, first time summoner needs time to get Fenrir, but it can be done by 55/60, where I think one really should have it. Other jobs might have some exceptions, too. Back when Erase was super expensive, I never expected it of the WHMs until the later 30s. Especially if that was their first job. Myself, I farmed for it before I dinged 32 and had it ready. But it was only 300k when I bought it, not the half a mil+ some poor WHMs had to pay. I'm sure there are lots more 'exception' abilities, I just have little knowledge of jobs outside of WHM, SMN, WAR, and DRG. But no, I don't think a first job SMN should reasonably be expected to have Fenny until 55 or 60 range. Second job SMN, well... that's a whole other kettle. And Diabolos I know little about, save that he seems to be very situational. And again, I salute those who choose to take another job to 70+ first, that way they can start SMN with at least Fenrir, if not Diabolos, too. It just isn't for everyone.

As for spirits, Light dropped when I got my Mitts, but the THF that a friend had brought to help us said he 'needed' it, so I felt it would be a good way to repay him. My friend told me later, the guy only sold it and I should have taken it irregardless. So I still don't own Light or Dark.

Yes, please, I do not mean any disrespect whatsoever. I really don't like to mention the term gimp either. I'm not into finding faults constantly with others and accenuating them to a flamatory degree. No, no, no.

I just have been in situations w/very arrogant ppl that don't have everything they should when they play this game and then say "don't flame me for not playing my job right, but please, by all means, since you're the whm, make sure you play yours right."

I know its a game. I keep it strictly in that context, and delve not any further outside of that realm. But, I played WHM to 75 levels on a previous character, and it was always -me- that had to bring my a-game while everyone else slacked around. Everyone could bring their gimpy equipment and their one carby summon to party, while I had erase and worked weeks to get my whm up to par.... because, if I didn't cure everyone on time and someone died, then they had a conniption (sp?) It's like, for 75 levels I was -expected- by the general public to not fault in my playstyle because... if I did, I let a cure slip and someone died and lost 2k xp or someone missed a whm because I overcured and got mob aggro and that person missed their ws and wasted their tp....... or if I failed to silena a nin in time so he could recast utsu and either died or lost hate........... I got berated for this by ppl.

Now, while I took none of it to heart.... in the game context, it was pretty demoralizing lol. So I figured, to shut ppl the h-e-doublehockey sticks up, I will just play w/my a-game. So I did.

I guess I'm jaded. I don't know lol.

[Eiyoko]

(Edit: I'll take this elsewhere)

[Sevv]

tele you dont have light or dark spirits??? get ur smn butt in game they will be in ur dbox tonight!!! And as for Shins ideas about this im going to have to agree, im sorry but unless your first job is smn im not going to cut you slack. And i stop cutting smns slack at 70 regardless, but then again i dont have smns main heal so your primarly a support class you dont have all your support abilites you can go be a gimped main healer for someone else.

[Eiyoko]

You apparently don't get it. Summoners can do just fine without every single avatar available. People are just greedy selfish and elitist and put people down for not being up to par. Think about it. Summoner isn't my first job, but do you think anyone will want to help a 66DRG get Fenrir, much less Diabolos?

...nope, didn't think so.

I can rant on and on about this but I have better things to do with my time than deal with fools. Relying on assets...ugh....

If you're so bent on reprimanding SMN for not having everything, I have a challenge for you. Play Summoner yourself. THEN tell us how we can't do our job without Fenrir.

[Shirai]

And i stop cutting smns slack at 70 regardless, but then again i dont have smns main heal so your primarly a support class you dont have all your support abilites you can go be a gimped main healer for someone else.

Alas, not everyone thinks like you do, however a lot of parties these days do treat me more like support then healer.
More also because the RDM takes over the healing duties while I Hastega/Ecliptic Howl/Earthen Ward the party.
Those 3 are from avatars each summoner should have at level 65 and up, I agree to that.
However the primary focus of the thread starter was Diabolos, of which I have to say a even level 75 summoner would not miss him unless they do endgame activities which involve kited mobs.

[Telera]

tele you dont have light or dark spirits??? get ur smn butt in game they will be in ur dbox tonight!!! And as for Shins ideas about this im going to have to agree, im sorry but unless your first job is smn im not going to cut you slack. And i stop cutting smns slack at 70 regardless, but then again i dont have smns main heal so your primarly a support class you dont have all your support abilites you can go be a gimped main healer for someone else.

No, Boss, as I said, I gave Light Spirit in good faith that that THF was telling the truth, only to have Sho tell me later that he saw the guy pawn it on the AH. Sho was upset, and so was I, thinking I'd actually helped someone out and returned a favor. No, him gaining 500k off my generosity isn't exactly the kind of 'helping' I'd had in mind. He had told me he had a low lvl smn that needed the spell.

Dark I meant to buy, but when I finally got Enke bracelets and sold them (thanks to Jinxer and Enchantedwhale), I ended up finishing my Ele Stave collection, getting a decent belt, and getting all but one GB done. o.o;

[SharMarali]

You apparently don't get it. Summoners can do just fine without every single avatar available. People are just greedy selfish and elitist and put people down for not being up to par. Think about it. Summoner isn't my first job, but do you think anyone will want to help a 66DRG get Fenrir, much less Diabolos?
...nope, didn't think so.
I can rant on and on about this but I have better things to do with my time than deal with fools. Relying on assets...ugh....
If you're so bent on reprimanding SMN for not having everything, I have a challenge for you. Play Summoner yourself. THEN tell us how we can't do our job without Fenrir.

Hrmm... I agree with you that SMN doesn't *need* Fenrir and Diabolos. However, I'm tired of the argument that someone must have job x at 75 to understand the mechanics of it.

Just because a person doesn't have all jobs at 75 doesn't mean they can't have a basic understanding of all of them. I personally disagree with the opinion that a SMN has to have these two avatars at low-to-mid levels, and I even think a SMN can LIVE without Diabolos forever, and without Fenrir until about 60. It's better for the SMN to have Fenrir sooner, but if they don't, it's not going to singlehandedly kill a PT.

But I don't think anyone is any less entitled to their opinion just because they personally chose to level a different job.

[Eiyoko]

Hrmm... I agree with you that SMN doesn't *need* Fenrir and Diabolos. However, I'm tired of the argument that someone must have job x at 75 to understand the mechanics of it.
Just because a person doesn't have all jobs at 75 doesn't mean they can't have a basic understanding of all of them. I personally disagree with the opinion that a SMN has to have these two avatars at low-to-mid levels, and I even think a SMN can LIVE without Diabolos forever, and without Fenrir until about 60. It's better for the SMN to have Fenrir sooner, but if they don't, it's not going to singlehandedly kill a PT.
But I don't think anyone is any less entitled to their opinion just because they personally chose to level a different job.

Sorry if I worded it wrong. Personally I'm just tired of people bugging me 'cause I don't have Diabolos so I find it a bit hard to think straight. Some idiot in the 40's told me to "go get him" in the middle of a party. As if it were to take like what, 2 minutes. When I said "go level SMN yourself" I didn't mean to come across quite like that.

Honestly, I'm not exaggerating.

I never -quite- meant to say you have to be leveled in the job to understand it. Some people just don't seem to see that there's more that summoners can do besides spam Fenrir at the levels you have those certain abilities from him.

I never was able to get Fenrir until my SMN was level 66. Until then I spent alot of my time main healing (which I have no problem doing, by the way, so long as the party doesn't mistake me for an actual WHM) and supporting in other ways.

Again my appologies if I was mistaken.

[SharMarali]

I had Fenrir at level 37. I still main healed most of the way to 75. As I've mentioned before, Diabolos as a pact wasn't released until I'd been 75 for quite awhile, so obviously I didn't have him.

The SMN-as-a-main-healer argument is a side issue and there are plenty of threads where we've hashed that one out. I just don't want you to think that SMNs who have Fenrir at lower levels somehow have a completely different experience than SMNs who didn't get him til later in the game. We were still asked for basically the same buffs and invited to main heal. The only difference is that we had Ecliptical Howl, Ecliptical Growl, and Lunar Cry backing us up too. Lunar Cry, by the way, is pretty freaking inaccurate in my experience. >_<;;