BLU vs RDM

[hongman]

Ok, so my friend started BLU and was raving about how much of a DD it is. Then came the line "Blu would kill Rdm in a PVP battle"

Now, most of you know Im Rdm main. I dont claim to know a lot, and i certianly know bugger all about Blu. So I am here to ask a few questions.

We have decided upon a Brenner match at 55, with no Silence. Whoever wins, wins. Then a match again at 75 (apparently) when we both have full use of our Job's skills.

Now, dont get me wrong, I respect every job. But I am (yes I am biased) thinking that I will win. Strategy follows (please point out any obvious flaws). I am certain that the key is to not let him near me too soon as as out and out DD goes, he will probably win. Both as /NIN

1. Gravity + Bind {Run Away!}
2. Diaga to wipe shadows
3. Enfeeble (Slow/Para/Dia/Bio/Poison)
4. Buff (SS, Phalanx, Refresh, Proc/Shell, Utsu)
5. Nuke Nuke Nuke
6. ES + Sleep II
7. Convert -> Heal
8. Nuke Nuke Nuke
9. If he's still alive, Melee

Obviously as long as everything sticks (with all my gear stat boosts and Gob Mushpot for +10MND and Elemental Seal for Sleep II) I think its a done deal.

Then again...like I said I dont know what kinda abilities BLU have so...

Comments?

[Mhurron]

Why restrict the use of Silence?

[Raydeus]

Blu's abilities will depend on what spells he has equipped when he fights you, but you don't have to worry much about melee damage, Phalanx, Stoneskin and Icespikes will take care of that.

That would leave Blue magic as his main source of damage, so unless you get Shell and Protect dispeled I don't see that being much of a problem either. :thumbsup:

[Murphie]

Silence is one of a RDM's key spells. Restricting it's use is essentially admitting that RDM needs to be handicapped so that BLU can compete.

Personally, I'd say either go all out on both sides or don't bother.

[hongman]

I dunno, the No Silence rule was added by another ls member, so I thought hey, maybe that would make it unfair. I know it is an official legitimate spell....

Also presume he has all BLU Spells for this - i know he hasnt, but then again I dont know what he has and hasnt got. So presume he has them all.

My main fear is Bludgeon and Headbut spam so thats why with gravity and bind I am planning on him not even being able to get near me.

2hrs havent been decided on yet, but of they are allowed, I thought I might go in as /blm and just do the same but CS and Nuke + Aspir so even if I dont kill him he has no MP left XD

Can anyone see a flaw in my plans? Am I underestimating BLU?

[hongman]

Silence is one of a RDM's key spells. Restricting it's use is essentially admitting that RDM needs to be handicapped so that BLU can compete.

Personally, I'd say either go all out on both sides or don't bother.

True. Will discuss tonight/tomorrow.

[Haggai]

Silence is one of a RDM's key spells. Restricting it's use is essentially admitting that RDM needs to be handicapped so that BLU can compete.

Personally, I'd say either go all out on both sides or don't bother.
I agree. Why are you restricting silence? He has Chaotic Eye. It's like telling a Black Mage that he can't use sleep.

[hongman]

Fair play I will bring this up when I next speak to him. Its a friendly fight, but on a more serious note, he is trying to prove BLU is the "best job" (no such thing but try telling him that) and Im merely saying RDM can outlive most if not all jobs. Not saying RDM is "best" (well it is to me but to others its different).

Its so funny winding him up though, cracks the whole LS up :)

[hongman]

Hehehe

Thanks all got some really good tips

Iv not yet seen one person yet say "It will be an even match/difficult/etc" So is the general concensus that all other things being equal, RDM will always triumph over Blu? Coz that really strokes my ego XD

[Ameroth]

Fair play I will bring this up when I next speak to him. Its a friendly fight, but on a more serious note, he is trying to prove BLU is the "best job" (no such thing but try telling him that) and Im merely saying RDM can outlive most if not all jobs. Not saying RDM is "best" (well it is to me but to others its different).

Its so funny winding him up though, cracks the whole LS up :)

If he feels that BLU is the "best job", then he wont mind allowing the use of Silence. After all, BLU is so unbelievably awesome that it won't matter if he's silenced.:rolleyes:

[BurningPanther]

Yeah, no point in trying to decide a "best job" if you can't use all the tools at your disposal. The fact that someone even had to suggest handicapping RDM and Silence speaks volumes for your odds in the fight.

What it really comes down to, as is with facing any casting job, is whether or not you can successfully fire off Silence. Everything after that sort of falls into place.

[Ghostraven]

Silence and 2hours being restricted tip the odds in the BLU's favor...

Also Bio overwrites dia, don't try to put them both on him at the same time.

[Sabaron]

If you're talking PvP, you should also find a similarly qualified DRK to throw down as well. They're very good in PvP.

I agree that Silence needs to be in play. If it's out of play, then BLU cannot use Chaotic Eye and Silence is better than Chaotic Eye, so they're basically stripping you of one of your advantages which is not very cool.

Remember that if he's /NIN when you throw Gravity/Bind it's going to get eaten by shadows. Diaga has to go first.

Red Mage's biggest advantage in PvP is the Paralyze spell. Since he will be Even Match, there's probably like a 1-5% chance of a resist on it, so stack +MND as high as possible to get hideous effectiveness. He can cancel your Slow spell with Refueling, so you might just leave that one off.

Buff before enfeeble. Stoneskin should be your first priority, followed by Utsusemi then Phalanx and Shell/Protect.

If you're going to be nuking him, I might suggest the radical alternative of going /BLM so that you can use Sleepga to Sleep him through shadows. Of course, this provided you can use Sleepga at your level. Blink isn't as good as Utsusemi, but Elemental Seal and -ga spells are horrible especially when you have a basically unresistable Gravity spell and Bind as well. With /BLM you have 3 sleeps, one that cancels Shadows. This method however precludes DoT spells.

You could also try DoT kiting him like an HNM. Recasting only Diaga, Silence, Bio II, and Poison II. Off /BLM sub you add a triad of Elemental enfeebles. I would suggest Drown, Rasp, Frost.

With RDM/NIN don't forget that you have other Ninjutsu besides Utsusemi which you can use to cause good damage (better than a NIN/WAR or WAR/NIN) because of your Elemental skill. Tools cost 0mp.

I have never done PvP myself, but will hopefully be trying it soon (probably Brenner). I'm basically thinking out loud.

If you wanted, you could try subbing /BLU just to shake things up ;). I have never used BLU Sleepgas (Sheep Song, Soporific, Pinecone Bomb) versus ninjas that I'm aware of, so I'm not sure if they're shadow-cancelling.

You could also consider using a Hornetneedle and Dia II as opposed to Bio II (make sure you Dispel his Cocoon) and use Energy Drain to steal his MP. Remember that Bludgeon is a threefold attack, so your Phalanx is triple strength versus it. My bludgeons hit for around 100 damage at my level so if his are say 150 and your Phalanx blocks around 20/hit that drops it to 90 per spell and he'll only ever get one off before you resilence him. If he tries Chaotic Eye, just move behind him while he's casting (you have 3 seconds) and it will miss--just unlock and run right past him. Chaotic Eye is a front-conal gaze attack. Throw Silence back up and continue. As long as he's Blind and Paralyzed and preferably Slow (if he didn't get a Refueling off before you silenced him), you should have no trouble meleeing him since your armor is similar, your accuracy is similar and you do more damage with Enspell than he can with Sword. Phalanx will ensure that his damage sucks compared to yours even when your mitigation spells are down. What weapon you use (dagger v. sword) depends on your current level and how much your Enspell does. I would mix it up though and use nukes as well. Probably take your pre-convert mana and spend it on nukes, then Sleep him, Convert, Refresh, Full-hp, and then engage ensuring all debuffs are up before you throw down. If you hit him with an Energy Steal at 200% TP, you may be able to drain 60ish MP from him which will really hurt. This is why I suggest the dagger over the sword if you can get similar damage. Enspell damage is also unaffected by his defense which gives it trumps over physical damage.

Also, if you're meleeing him and you feel that you might be dangerously close to needing a bit of uninterrupted time, do unlock target, turn away, Bind, run, cast, cast, cast, reengage.

Be liberal with the Phalanx--recast it before it goes down and remember that you can click off Stoneskin while you're recasting it just like overwriting Ni with Ichi but much easier.

When doing Red Mage Invincible Tank here's the procedure:

1. Phalanx [this reduces damage and curbs interruption which allows you to take a couple hits while casting SS]
2. Stoneskin
3. Utsusemi
4. Utsusemi down? Recast!
5. Cast Stoneskin [Cancelling your current one mid-cast at like 30-40%]
6. Repeat 4/5 and reapply Phalanx as necessary.

This procedure integrates Ni/Ichi cycle into it when you get to 74/75, and is hideously powerful. It is the essential force for RDM soloing.

[hongman]

lol just to prove a point he got beat by a blu 5 lvls lower than him tongiht whilst i was pting.

Was a good sport about it, still...made him realise a thing or 2 i think.

[BurningPanther]

That seems to be attributed to his own play ability, not the attributes of the job. The guy who beat him may just know how to work BLU better than he does. THAT might be the guy to challenge.

[Jei]

BLU 2 hour will double/triple his spell damage. If he get a hit in without you having stoneskin, you're done. At least that's how BLU 1 shot people in level 75 matches. No silence just ensures he keeps his deadliest weapon (which is not likely to hit you easily anyway)

[Sabaron]

RDM Two-hour allows you to unload two full bars of mana worth of spells in under a minute. If we're talking 2-hr vs. 2-hr, the BLU is done for since RDM can perma-stoneskin, recast Utsusemi in the blink of an eye, and unload hideous amounts of nukage. BLU still has to wait for his recast timers to reset and RDM can cast Silence in rapid succession. I don't think this is a 75 battle, so we won't be seeing any one-shotting, but you can always try feinting and bait him into expending his two-hour or you can just Chainspell flood him at the beginning--that should toast his sesame seeds.

Chainspell
Silence
Sleep
Buff + Refresh
Bind
Nuke, nuke, nuke
Sleep
Convert
Cure IV x 2 or Cure IV + Cure III (whichever is fastest and most efficient for you)
Nuke?, Nuke?
Enspell, Haste
Silence, Paralyze, Blind, Slow, Gravity
Engage
Use the remainder of your mana sparingly, but try to make the best of Chainspell.

If you estimate you can waste him with the remainder of your MP, just dump it on him instead of engaging. It would be unwise of him to try to counter your two-hour with his as you have Silence with zero recast time and 0.5ish second casting time (nearly uninterruptible). His best bet would be to try and ride out the storm or put you to sleep which you should be easily able to avoid by staying out of range and/or keeping him silenced. The best spell vs. BLU for RDM is Silence. That's why it cannot be taken away from you--it is an essential tool for a RDM facing a BLU and that's why they want to strip you of it.

If you must fight without Silence, then you have to use ranged techniques and DoT kiting which is spectacularly boring and precludes melee.

[hongman]

lol @ Sabaron

Yeah, he hasnt got a chance. Im not being big headed or nothing but after the BLU vs BLU fight he had already stated the following:

He thinks BLU 2hr is "crap" and worthless
He admmitted he is completely unorganized and has no macros
Is missing half his BLU spells.

I asked him what his strat against me was, and he said Sound Blaster.

Im not a "good" RDM. I would say I'm mediocre at best, but I think even that is enough to ensure a win.

The 1st thing I would do is land Gravity for short cast time and to be able to get some distance. After that, whether I sub NIN or BLM, there are a plethora of ways for me to take him down. Bottom line is, as long as he is bound and silenced, theres not much he can do.

At EM my Para should pretty much cripple him. +10MND from Gob Mushpot gives me 79MND. I could even chuck in a handful of Aspir's so I know that even if he does become unsilenced using Drops, he wont have MP to cast anything.

I spoke about this to a party and one guy was like "If he gets off the first spell your done for". I dont think thats the case. His first spell would be Sound Blaster. If it landed, 1 quick echo drop and then Gravity would bring me back up to full speed.

And even then, Gravity is a very fast cast, coupled with Fast Cast III...

We are trying to make it an LS event, I believe other people can eneter Brenner without fighting?

[Armando]

With RDM/NIN don't forget that you have other Ninjutsu besides Utsusemi which you can use to cause good damage (better than a NIN/WAR or WAR/NIN) because of your Elemental skill. Tools cost 0mp.You sure about that? Ninjutsu skill exists for a reason.

[BurningPanther]

You sure about that? Ninjutsu skill exists for a reason.
What he said. It's based off Ninjutsu skill, but has modifiers in INT and M. Atk. Elemental skill doesn't factor in.

[Karinya]

I wouldn't bother with /NIN in the level 55 matchup. You both have shadow wipers and who has time to recast Ichi? Go /BLM and get ES, Drain and Aspir. You also get a shadow wiper that doesn't prevent you from sleeping him, which is nice. If you do /NIN, don't dual wield; use a shield. You might block some of his blue magic, but more importantly, you attack more often giving you more chances to interrupt a spell.

If you're both playing without Silence, then it comes down to an endurance match; run him out of MP and he's done. He will probably have a smaller manapool (definitely if you're /mage and he's not) and spamming attack spells is a huge mana hog (which you can easily stay ahead of by curing yourself and recasting Stoneskin, if you're not interrupted - btw, keep up Aquaveil if you can). Also, you have Refresh and Convert and he doesn't. That means you want to stall him, kite, recast Stoneskin as much as possible and Aspir as much as you can - the longer the fight lasts, the more of an advantage you have. And paralyze. Very annoying and unremovable by a blu/nin, it stops both melee attacks and spells.

Convert helps a lot here, but be sure to ES Sleep/Sleep2 him first. That means no DoTs in the early part of the fight.

If you're *not* playing without Silence, remember that his Silence requires eye contact and yours doesn't. Face away from him. This is probably why he insists on the no silence provision - RDM's is better and everyone knows it. XD


Above all don't melee unless the odds are in your favor - paralyze, slow, stoneskin etc. Dispel Refueling, and if you plan to melee, Cocoon as well. If he tries to dispel you, a couple cheap barspells have a decent chance of soaking up his dispel for a lot less time and MP than it cost him to cast it; aquaveil is also cheap, but will take you some time to recast.

It may be better not to melee at all, but just run him out of MP and then start DoT kiting with occasional nuking. His melee isn't much of a threat to you (especially if he dual wields, which makes it much easier to time a spell between swings) and once he runs out of MP he can't get it back.


Oh, and one more thing: several blue magic spells have both a long casting time, and a short range. If you see him casting one of those, run away. Or cast a long spell of your own - he can't hit and interrupt you while he's casting. (The spell itself can interrupt you if it's physical, but with Fast Cast you will often finish before he does anyway.) You may also be able to stop some long spells with Sleep I - and *then* run away and cast a long spell of your own, or several.

A lot of common BLU tactics are based on the fact that monsters are stupid, and in party play, usually attacking someone else. Those things aren't true of you, and if he hasn't thought about the implications of that, you can really screw up his plans.


As far as gear and food is concerned: defense. Either he wins quickly or he doesn't win, and physical defense greatly reduces the effectiveness and MP efficiency of his physical damage spells (especially combined with Phalanx). You can't do much about Frightful Roar, since it only takes 2 seconds to cast, but you can get your defense as high as you can to make up for it. Make him pay for every point of damage he deals - and then cure it. RDM are the kings of endurance battles.

[Sabaron]

BLM/NIN does more damage with ichis than I see off NIN/WAR. I had thought it was affected by the Elemental Skill but perhaps it's just the MAB? RDM gets that too although not as much.

[hongman]

I'll update tomorrow when we duel, though it all depends on how quickly he lvls. Im going to stay at 55 for a bit now while I lvl my BLM and WHM subs...

He wanted to battle as 55rdm vs 34 BLU (i declined obviously) so we have decided on a fair even lvl battle XD Ill update when this happens.

[Sabaron]

I had to look it up. It is in fact the MAB that does it, but both RDM and BLM have it and it does affect ninjutsu off sub. I have used it on my 30-36 BLM and it's excellent even with gimped Ninjutsu skill in XP party. It's not the elemental skill, it is in fact the Magic Attack Bonus. The effect is substantial even on gimped tools especially if you follow-up with a nuke. Obviously NIN/RDM & NIN/BLM are going to be better, but flipping it works too.

MAB II on a 55RDM is 24%.

Off sub (on NIN), you can get 20% max for RDM or 24% max for BLM.



http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=12;mid=1131999085263982367;num=65;p age=1

[hongman]

Ok now you lost me on the whole Ninjitsu skill thing XD

EDIT:

I just looked up Sound Blaster (which is the spell he was going to use to Silence me) but it just lowers INT. I think he got his spells mixed up XD

[Armando]

Yeah, it's the MAB. MAB affects virtually every form of magic damage save for HP% attacks (Breaths,) and probably Drain. It even affects pure magic WS. Either way Elemental Skill doesn't affect damage potency...

And BLU's Silence is called Chaotic Eye. He has to make eye contact for it to land, by the way.

EDIT: Well, I *think* he has to be making eye contact. At the very least you have to be looking his way; I don't know if it'll work if he's facing away from you while you face him, but I doubt it.

[Vyuru]

I'd go with Karinya's advice, go rdm/blm, and maybe chainspell aspir/drain/stoneskin/blink, keep your hp up with drain and take out his mp with aspir at the same time. He'll be forced to try to heal and deal damage, hopefully he'd get a little flustered and indecisive giving you the edge.

[Sabaron]

The continual Sleeping even through shadows (Sleepga shadow-wipe pwns) will also annoy and confound him. Aspir won't wake him up, so cast it while he's asleep for maximum annoyance.

[hongman]

LOL I love the support RDM gets ^^

Still havent seen him online yet, since he got beat by that lvl 29 BLU.

Oh well, will try and get this done as soon as he is online next. Plus if I go NIN and melee, I have now got my WWA and Ryl Fleuret (think thats what its called), and Fencers Ring for + EnSpell dmg.

[WishMaster3K]

I always Ballista as RDM/WAR, stack enhancing primarily and then MND secondarily.

I usually eat Tav Tacos, throw up Protect, Shell and Defender and I stand there are Ice Spikes, Bio2 and Poison2 kill my opponents.

Nothing can beat RDM, not even WS spamming MNKs and SAMs. Tachi: Gekko is annoying cause of silence, and Guillotine is the same way, but against EMs, if we stack DEF, you'll see many angry DRKs who'll be itching to unload their WS only to have it do 200 damage w/o Stoneskin.

I wouldn't bother with Aquaveil, because if you cap enhancing, you can pretty much cast in between melee swings.

NINs and THFs don't hit us hard enough beyond our Defense, DRKs swing too slow.

DRGs, MNKs and WARs are variables, but to this date, the only time a melee has beaten me was after I owned them 5+ times in a row and I was either running out of MP or in my buff cycle/without buffs when they ran up on me.

Oh, and MNK/DRK is lol.

RDMs are the fortresses of the battle field. RDM/WAR is the fortress with ballistic missiles.

BLU are jokes. All jobs are jokes. Everytime there is a PvP discussion in my LS and I jump into the argument, everyone suddenly becomes busy. The RDM's worst enemy is a stronger and faster RDM, but that's a post for another time.

ProTips:
Wait for a WS before you convert.
DoT is your best friend
EnSpell racks up during the times you're meleeing and not in a need of a buff
BarSilence + Baraero goes a looooong way in survivability.

[hongman]

Well, still havent seen him online yet....I wonder whats happened. He's been on everyday since I have known him...

[Shamanking]

It's more than obvious that the two jobs are equal enough (in 1v1, without restrictions) that SJ and skill is the main variable, which affects the outcome drastically. I've got both RDM and BLU 75, and ballista with both, and I've gotta say, an RDM/BLU with def gear is a tough nut to crack, but BLU/RDM with wind resist gear is extremely difficult to consistently silence. If it does stick with baraero/barsilence, it'll wear off soon, and the more you try to stick a debuff in one game, the more resistant the victim becomes.

Just remember that BLU is a sultan of spike damage in PVP, it has its powerful short range attacks, and one key high range, being the big 3 (more than that if you use them), disseverment, hysteric barrage, frenetic rip, and then cannonball. Shield BLUs with /rdm are to look out for, as they'll usually try to get the finishing hit with cannonball. With this in mind, you want to block yourself from damage instantly, as opposed to the long run, as if your fight is too long, you're more likely to lose.

As an RDM, I'd try to silence the blu, perhaps dispelling once or twice to try kill a barspell, then when silenced, kill asap with nukes. This tactic works well with /pld, as any job can use it to convert spike damage to 10% of what it'd usually do with sentinel.

As a BLU, I'd worry more about silence, and as a result, enhance resistance to it. DEF is also key, RDM hits aren't too much of a problem melee wise, but cutting down nukes if you get silenced helps, wait till it wears, and use your head butts and spike damage to turn the tables. Like with pld/rdm fights (though pld/rdm cant silence), its also helpful to dispel buffs and drain MP for longer fights, for example, if the said RDM tries to sleep and dispel you until you wake up. Promises to annoy.

P.S You can win a fight with no silence as RDM, it just takes /pld and good timing, flash for the multihit spells, and when that wears keep sentinel ready. You'll need to rely mostly on flash > SS, followed by cures as, if a blu is only paralyzed, you're going to get hit sooner or later.

Both jobs have an equal chance at winning, depending on skill and rulings. BLUs and RDMs should be thankful for this, as other jobs aren't so lucky.

More in the way of advise to the OP, I would try to avoid /nin, as blu, as with almost every job, has some means of quickly wiping shadows to the point where they dont even mitigate spell interruption. You'll want to either /blu /war or /pld, to add defense or damage down to your annoying arsenal of defenses - remember to have fun, and good luck!

[Losrase]

More in the way of advise to the OP, I would try to avoid /nin, as blu, as with almost every job, has some means of quickly wiping shadows to the point where they dont even mitigate spell interruption.

{True Strike}

I had one PvP match against a 74RDM/BLM. I was a level 70BLU/NIN and I thought I had the advantage. The fight went as follows:

Me> Full sprint to the RDM because I think he isnt paying attention.
RDM> casts sleepga.
Me> Oh $h!t! Wait I could make it in time. I hit him twice then head butt. (First hit is asorbed by Stoneskin, second hit is asorbed by his stoneskin, the head butt is asorbed by his blink). Sleepga sticks and now I am sleep without shadows...
RDM> Rebuffs(Blink Refresh Stoneskin Phalanx Aguaveil), ES + Bind, Silence (2x because I resist the first one), moves out of melee range, Slow, Paralyze, and Gravity. Cast Aero 2.
Me> I get hit for 78 dmg (thank you metallic body). Equip all my +Dark elemental gear and hope.
RDM> Sleep(resisted), Sleepga (BAH! it stuck).
Me> I realize that I would need to have +earth/wind/dark gear and swap gear as he is casting a spell to get out of this horrible situation. All I had on me was a dark staff...

Long story short, I had different combinations of bind, silenced, gravity, and sleep the entire fight as he nuked me to death. I was able to get one Frost Breath in there for 148 dmg + Paralyze but as I said above he just kept casting bind, silence, gravity, or sleep/sleepga until his paralyze wore. He moved out of breath range. Convert and he was back in action. After a few minutes...dirt nap.