oh my god

[Kiryn]

What am I freaking cursed or something. I always die constantly as a WAR but never died as a MNK with /WAR. :(

What is up with it. I died 5 times today

[Mog]

You take too much hate? What you need to do is unlock ninja sub for warrior, then you won't die as much.

[IfritnoItazura]

Er...

Don't you want to at least ask questions like "How did you die?" and "What were you doing at the time?" and "Were you tanking?" and "Did the mages cast cure on you?" before prescribing /NIN?

How about an equipment check?

If OP's character info is correct, he's only WAR25, and /NIN wouldn't help him tank or do damage much.

[Minimee]

kiryn step away from the keyboard..... oh wait just look closely, your a taru playing a melee type job. if you get hate and get hit you die. a hume whm probaly has more hp and def than you at same level. really if your tanking as a war you need def gear and def foods. if your damage then back off if tank cant hold hate. level 25 you should be in the jungle no reason you cant tank mandys. gobbies on the other hand will slice you up before the whm can get up. if they get off a bomb toss its time for dirt nap. this is the life of a taru DD. /nin can take some of the edge off and make pulling easier, but your still going to have a high death rate. in the 30s spiders will 1 shot you, sickle slash on taru is bad. avoid them lol. it gets better some later on but not much. you will die alot just the way it is. i was in a beetle party in crawlers nest in my early 50's and someone in party everytime before weapon skill would /party use last resort souleater. well since i was only dark this must have been for me. i knew better but did it just to show him i knew how. needless to say i did so much damage to mob i got hate that no one could get off. well i died quickly. know your limits and your partys and deaths will be fewer. tarutaru (melee) impossible to guage!!!!!

[Auron517]

You take too much hate? What you need to do is unlock ninja sub for warrior, then you won't die as much.

PLEASE do not tell him this. There's already enough Warriors in the game going /NIN at his level when /MNK is superior for both tanking and damage. The fact that he's a Tarutaru might be part of the problem.

If he's tanking, better gears and party support and if doing damage, hate management are the resolutions to his problem...not shadows.

[Jarre]

Make sure you equipment is up to date. A simple economic equipment setup at that level should be chain mail (lvl 24 gear) for body, legs. Have Turtle sheild (vit +3, Def 6), fang or spike necklass (depending on financial situation) for +str and Dex. Power sandles for +3 VIT, warriors belt +1 for HP boost and Vit boost, Republican cap Hp+3, Def 7 and for hands use republican mittens for HP+ and Attack +. All these meant my LS mate could tank good as a war taru. as a taru you need to consentrate on 3 lacking properties. Str, Vitality and HP.

[IfritnoItazura]

Make sure you equipment is up to date. A simple economic equipment setup at that level should be chain mail (lvl 24 gear) for body, legs. Have Turtle sheild (vit +3, Def 6), fang or spike necklass (depending on financial situation) for +str and Dex. Power sandles for +3 VIT, warriors belt +1 for HP boost and Vit boost, Republican cap Hp+3, Def 7 and for hands use republican mittens for HP+ and Attack +. All these meant my LS mate could tank good as a war taru.

Turtle Shield (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Turtle_Shield) isn't a great idea in my book, due to the AGI-6 on it. Given that a WAR's defensive skills are not very impressive to begin with, lowering AGI by that much can't be good.

On WAR/MNK, I say go with Great Axe and just forget any shield. Not sure if there are enough easily obtained HP+ equipment available at low levels to make a significant difference to a Tarutaru WAR tanking; the better bet is keep up the defense and get a good healer and a backup healer.

Tarutaru or otherwise, a well geared WAR/MNK tank with a Great Axe and eating the right food (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/food.php) can hold the monster in place while the mages are pouring on the cures, and mantain output decent damage at the same time.

While Power Sandals (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Power_Sandals) is nice, it's rather hard to get without help from high level player. Also, if I'm guessing correctly, the OP is a relatively new player, and many not have the resources to get all HQ gears like Republic Cap/Mittens.

HQ items he should splurge on, though are equipment like Spike Necklace (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Spike_Necklace)--a very nice investment, which lasts many, many levels. Sadly, with the ever shortening tanking careers for WAR's, I cannot recommend OP purchase a Warrior's Belt +1, given that Brave Belt (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Brave_Belt) (Def:3 STR+2 VIT+1 DEX-1 AGI-1) is better for DD and still usable for tanking.

Also, a pair of Stamina Ring (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Stamina_Ring)s will last a WAR/MNK until the end of expected tanking days (Lv.36, or sooner). When not tanking, Vision Ring (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Vision_Ring) seems to be the latest trend for under Lv.30 physical damage dealers. (Stamina Ring is about 10k each on my server, while Vision Ring is about 15k. If money is tight, I'd get Stamina Rings first as a low level WAR/MNK.)

[Slip]

Also, don't forget food! It does more for your performance than almost any gear you can buy.

At level 24 Boiled Crab (Vit +2, Def +27% /Cap 50@185 base def) is your friend for tanking.

If you're really strapped for gil at least use Boiled Crayfish (Def+30%/cap 25@83 base def).

If you've got gil to spare go for Tavnazian Tacos (too many bonuses to list and they're becoming a lot cheaper these days).

Also, as a War, you'll want to bring along some melee food too. Meat Mithkabob's never go out of style and if you need to level up a weapon that's fallen behind a bit Squid Sushi can be good to make up for your missing Accuracy.

----

In general you want to look at why you're dying too.

Are you tanking? If so are you taking too much damage per hit (aka not enough Def/Vit) or is your primary healer asleep at the switch / not up to the task (aka get a better healer).

If you're not tanking then why are you pulling hate?
Constant boosting? If so don't do it unless you tank proves they can hold hate against it.
Berserk + WS when the mob arrives? If so wait till the tank has hate secured.
Tank just sucks? If so either get a better tank or switch to def/vit gear and food and be the better tank yourself.

[Ghostraven]

ummm he said he died as a mnk/war

[Auron517]

I always die constantly as a WAR but never died as a MNK with /WAR.

He says he never died as a Monk subbing Warrior, but always dies when he plays Warrior.

[Mog]

PLEASE do not tell him this. There's already enough Warriors in the game going /NIN at his level when /MNK is superior for both tanking and damage. The fact that he's a Tarutaru might be part of the problem.

If he's tanking, better gears and party support and if doing damage, hate management are the resolutions to his problem...not shadows.

{Um...}

Warrior/ninja is the norm combination when it comes to leveling warrior. Monk is only good up to a certain level, but past that he's going to want to sub ninja.

[Celeal]

war/nin can die just as much too; /nin does not automatically solve the problem. Ever try to main tank as war/nin at low ~ mid levels without proper support? It is just as ugly as any tank in a subpar party.

[Icemage]

MNK/WAR isn't generally expected to main tank at any level. WAR/MNK is often expected to main tank in the 20-30 range.

As a tarutaru with lower max HP and somewhat lower VIT than average, tanking is somewhat more dangerous than other races. This more than anything is the problem. Obviously good gear, food, and competent healers affects this as well, but all other things being equal, it's the shift in roles that's probably causing the difference.


Icemage

[Auron517]

{Um...}
Warrior/ninja is the norm combination when it comes to leveling warrior. Monk is only good up to a certain level, but past that he's going to want to sub ninja.

Er, according to the OP's profile, he's only level 25. If the thread was him inquiring about subjobs for Warrior down the road, I could understand you recommending that he gets Ninja sub.

Despite the fact that numerous people are WAR/NIN from level 1 to 75, does not change that /MNK is the way for him to go at his present levels.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

{Um...}

Warrior/ninja is the norm combination when it comes to leveling warrior. Monk is only good up to a certain level, but past that he's going to want to sub ninja.
"Up to a certain level". And what level is that? Sure, /NIN is the norm... at end game. But at what level does /NIN start being a better option than /MNK?

Auron's advice is spot on. For the level of the OP (25), MNK sub is still more valuable to a party then NIN sub. At that level, NIN sub is still situational.

To the OP: if you find that you are pulling hate too often as WAR/MNK when you are just a damage dealer, try laying off Boosts during battle. Boost generates a lot of hate, and the attack bonus it gives for just one swing isn't worth it.

If, however, you are tanking, and still dying, then it's an issue of either upgrading your gear or simply finding better parties to support you as main tank. Here's a hint: don't be main tank if you're two levels below the highest party member.

Edit: as far as food goes, you can use Meat Mithkabob for tanking. Just keep Defender up, and you effectively transfer the Kabob's attack bonus into a defense bonus. This will let you carry one stack of food in your inventory, and be able to switch between Tank and DD at a moments notice, without needing food effect to wear off.

[eticket109]

I personally think /nin isn't all that useful until 50 when Dual Wield II is available. I'd probably go /mnk to 30, /mnk or /thf to 50 and /nin from 50 on.

[Kiryn]

I meant WAR/MNK. I don't have any advanced jobs. I have no gil. I'm have good gear that was recommanded by others a few spots lacking cause of funds. But i'm taking WAR to 30 so I can do the Samurai quest. And once I hit 30 I will go farming in Windy for Yagudo necklaces for atleast a week and level up Clothcraft for money to support my Samurai job when I get it and WAR for up to 37.

I'm WAR24/MNK12. I had 25 cause I was close to getting it til the party disband so i'm at 24. We was partying in Batallia Downs(sp?) and fighting in the undeground place to Necropolis I think. And we was fighting Sabertooth Tigers. (never died by them). I died 2/4 times with Goblin Furrier. I died in Qufim 2 times by a freaking Pugil cause PL ran out of MP >.>. Then I died by a frigging Giant Sentry in the tower. so I lost about a good 1500-2000 exp ;_;.

Equipment:
--------------
Gear Slots:
MAIN: Moth Axe
SUB: No Item
RANGE: Self Bow (Don't ask, Money issues again)
AMMO: Bone arrows(^^)
HEAD: Iron Mask
NECK: Spike Necklace
EAR1: Shield Earring
EAR2: Shield Earring
BODY: Chainmail
HANDS: Lizard Gloves
RING1: Empress Band
RING2: Courage Ring +1
BACK: Dhalmel Mantle
WAIST: Barbarian's Belt
LEGS: Lizard Trousers
FEET: Scale Greaves

[bikkebakke]

Funny... I have had 0 deaths leveling my WAR from 1 - 31 as a Tarutaru... main tanking or not. Don't blame it on the fact that he's a Taru, blame probably lies with his support.

[Jei]

At your level, you can't really do anything really.... No matter how good you are, no matter what sub you use, if

1) you fight monsters too high for your level
or
2) the members in the PT doesn't know what they're doing

then you'll die. Plain and simple.

At your level, your survivability replies mainly on the healer, and some on the other provoker to help share your hate. There's not much you can do on your own.

22-24 ideally I like to fight fish. But without a good healer, screwdriver can and will kill you if you're the main tank.

24+ I like to go straight to Kazam. I hate giants in the tower.

[IfritnoItazura]

To OP, sounds like the five death thing was that you had a bad day. I wouldn't worry too much about it.


Equipment:
--------------
Gear Slots:
MAIN: Moth Axe
SUB: No Item
RANGE: Self Bow (Don't ask, Money issues again)
AMMO: Bone arrows(^^)
HEAD: Iron Mask
NECK: Spike Necklace
EAR1: Shield Earring
EAR2: Shield Earring
BODY: Chainmail
HANDS: Lizard Gloves
RING1: Empress Band
RING2: Courage Ring +1
BACK: Dhalmel Mantle
WAIST: Barbarian's Belt
LEGS: Lizard Trousers
FEET: Scale Greaves

Even for Tarutaru, I'd change from Shield Earring to Beetle Earring +1 when not tanking. I would sell the Courage Ring +1, and get two regular Courage Rings instead for playing as DD, as well as two Stamina Rings for playing as tank. (You can use the Empress Band before starting, then switch to Courage or Stamina Ring after you use it.)

You should either upgrade legs to Chain Hose now, or wait until next level and upgrade to Republic Subligar. There isn't anything too terrible interesting for the feet slot at the moment, but try to quest the Lv.29 Wonder Clomps (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Wonder_Clomps) as soon as you can.

[Icemage]

Gear looks fine to me. The slots that are deficient don't matter much at this level anyway. The only note I'd make is that you don't need to keep the Empress Band equipped after you activate it - the EXP+ Dedication effect stays with you even if you unequip the ring, so definitely take IfritnoItazura's advice about the Courage+1 ring above.


Icemage

[Kiryn]

Thank you for the helper guys. I'm surprised you didn't laugh at the equipment I had :P.

I tried selling everything I had to make money off of but none of my items sell, even below price ;_;

[Slip]

Items not selling below price? Say thanks to the RMTs for that one possibly.

If you need a decent way to make money though there are a couple of things you can try:

1.) Fish for Moat Carp. They're usually a quick seller for a few thousand gil and they're dead easy to catch regardless of your fishing skill.

2.) Farm Saplings for Grain Seeds. Grain Seeds used to be a crud item. Then SE introduced Sushi and Grain Seeds can grow an essential part of it so now they sell pretty decently (17k a stack on Pandy). They drop reasonably often off low level saplings that you can kill quick and easy as a Warrior. For added fun kill the bees that are usually around too for Honey and Beehive chips which also sell well.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Self bow / bone arrows are fine for the ranged attack slots. As a WAR, you can't rely on ranged attacks for consistent damage anyways (it will only slow down your normal melee swings, which will be efficient).

The only reason you'll need ranged attacks at all is for pulling. And for that, I recommend getting the cheapest boomerang you can find. You can use the same boomerang over and over again (you'll never lose it). It'll end up taking up less space in your inventory, and you'll save gil over time.

[Celeal]

Your gear is okay. You have the options to upgrade better gear if you can afford it, but at this moment your gear can handle basic tanking or DD. My advice is start battle with Shield Break, and safe TP for next battle (Shield Break again). The purpose for Shield Break is to improve your accuracy (and your party's DDs accuracy).

When DD, use attack food for DD and Shield Break.

When tanking, Shield Break + attack food + Defender for tanking. Provoke -> Boost -> Boost -> Provoke -> Boost -> Boost -> ... (until the mob dies)

With Shield Break covers your accuracy, attack food covers your damage output, basically you are good to go :D

[Raydeus]

Since gil is an issue then maybe using an Almogavar Bow (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Almogavar_Bow) wont be easy, but Bloody bolts would help the situation a bit (the bow itself is cheap, but bolts can potentially eat too much gil for a new player).

You'd have to work on your marksmanship skill and all that, but if you had it close to cap just using Bloody (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Bloody_Bolt) and Acid (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Acid_Bolt) Bolts would make things a lot easier.

Also, you wouldn't really need any special food since WAR's skill is good enough to land hits on xp mobs up to crawlers nest.

That being said, for practical purposes you may be better off waiting to attempt this till after you are lvl 30 and farmed some gil to take your war to 37. :thumbsup:

[IfritnoItazura]

>_> 'D' ranked Marksmanship, firing expensive bolts at IT monsters...

I think it'll be much more cost effective to hound the WHM or RDM in party for Regen instead...

[Altae]

From the sounds of it Kiryn, your race as a Tarutaru, the type of monsters your party fights, what your job can do, and what healers you end up with are the prime factors to why you die. Most of these you've already heard about in this topic.

But I'd like to know what it is you normally do in a regular EXP party. Are you provoking often just because? Do you WS at the start of a pull? Stuff like that.

Perhaps even entail details of one particular fight where you ended up dying in.

Now, I don't know how you play as a WAR, but if you're often provoking just for the heck of it, you probably should stop. Leave it to the tank to provoke as often as possible and keep it so your healers have only one person to mainly worry about. But always be ready to lend a helping hand when that tank is in trouble. If you're tanking, you'll want to stop using berserk and keep on buffing up with defender.

Defender is an ugly ability as it severly cripples your attack power. But it adds defense and lasts as long as it's recast time ticks on for. So it'll be ready for use just as it's about to wear off.

And as everyone else has stated, your race as a tarutaru is a major problem vs Giants, Pugils, Goblins, and Damselflies. These monsters/foes each have horrible area effect abilities. Getting hit by them certainly is a pain in the butt. But some actions can be taken to spoil their fun in using these abilities on you.

I believe you can get Smash Axe as a WS for Axe weapons. This stuns targets for a temporary moment. It is useful on the giants and goblins as some of their area effect abilities take time to initiate. So be on the look out for the red stink lines that indicate a monster ability is being prepared for use and stun'em so their preparation fails. The only problem in attaining this desired action is if your party requests that you participate in a skillchain.

However, vs flies and pugils, those are most likely unpreventable if you tried.

Also, Giants have a directional area effect ability. I think it's called Lightning Roar, but you can avoid taking damage from that simply by not being in the Giant's front view. Take up a side or rear position and whack away!

And as for dying so much even if you aren't tanking. You are either hitting more often than the other DDs, throwing on berserk followed by a WS, or have incompetent healers. It's no surprise there would be many incompetent healers at your level range. I tend to feel most of them are too elitist for the job's role as a healer. "Oh, gotta raise divine magic skill. Need more enhancing skill ups!" Such skill-ups or tasks may have their uses, but they're getting side-tracked from the main idea. "Heal me or you're next."

I hope some of this helps you and I wish you good luck in finding better parties. Or, at least better healers. I don't mean to sound as if I'm treating you like a newbie. But you ought to list what it is that happens before you die.

[TehTyr]

I figured I might throw my two cents in:

I'm levelling my WAR in a 3 person static which consists of:
WAR/MNK Hume (me)
RDM/WHM Elvaan
RDM/DRK Mithra
All level 53 atm.

There are three major concerns for me, as a tanking WAR:
1) Keep the hate.
2) Deal maximum damage.
3) Reduce damage taken.

To solve all three of these concerns, NIN never even comes close to being useful. It's true that Shadows do help reduce damage, however as the solo tank it is almost impossible to get consistent shadows off, and we all love wasting all that time casting only to be interrupted right near the end, eh?

Setup for me consists of as much VIT gear I can get my hands on (I.M body/Head, unyielding ring, Verve +1, earth mantle, medievil collar), some HP earrings, and a Great Axe. Using gax really helps to keep the hate, and if I want to show off (>.>) I can hold the hate from our RDM/WHM without voke'ing.
(/range <t>, /ja "Warcry" <me>, /ja "Dodge" <me>, /ja "Focus" <me>, /ja "Boost" <me>, /ja "Aggressor" <me>, /ja "Boost" <me> /wait 2 /weaponskill "Sturmwind" <t>)

Food consists of Meat Mithkabobs.

IMO, /NIN should be kept for LS's and special occasions, where your PT is full and you have people competent enough to hate share. But even then, it's only useful at 50+ when you get a Dual Wield II if your a DD.

[Slip]

But even then, it's only useful at 50+ when you get a Dual Wield II if your a DD.

This comes up a lot but I find it a confusing. The bonus from DW2 is only 15% vs DW1's 10%. So DW1 is a much greater difference from single wielding than DW2 is from DW1.

I switched over to /Nin in the early 40s because it was too easy to draw hate with /Mnk. True I could lay off using the Mnk JAs but then what's the point to having it as a sub? With /Nin I've got 6 hits I can take after pulling hate which is tons of time for the tank to get it back *and* I've got a 10% dmg bonus in form of 10% faster swings from DW1.

Waiting till level 50 so that 10% bonus becomes a 15% bonus just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Now if you want to argue that Wars should be single wielding Great Axes, that's fine, but I find it even easier to pull hate with a G Axe and /Mnk than with a single Axe so there again 6x shadows is a handy thing to have.

The extra cherry on top of /Nin sub is access to Tonko for getting to sight aggro camps.

So, am I missing something here or in a thread where someone's complaining about dying a lot wouldn't /Nin at any level past 24 make a lot of sense to recommend?

[TehTyr]

This comes up a lot but I find it a confusing. The bonus from DW2 is only 15% vs DW1's 10%. So DW1 is a much greater difference from single wielding than DW2 is from DW1.

I switched over to /Nin in the early 40s because it was too easy to draw hate with /Mnk. True I could lay off using the Mnk JAs but then what's the point to having it as a sub? With /Nin I've got 6 hits I can take after pulling hate which is tons of time for the tank to get it back *and* I've got a 10% dmg bonus in form of 10% faster swings from DW1.

Waiting till level 50 so that 10% bonus becomes a 15% bonus just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Now if you want to argue that Wars should be single wielding Great Axes, that's fine, but I find it even easier to pull hate with a G Axe and /Mnk than with a single Axe so there again 6x shadows is a handy thing to have.

The extra cherry on top of /Nin sub is access to Tonko for getting to sight aggro camps.

So, am I missing something here or in a thread where someone's complaining about dying a lot wouldn't /Nin at any level past 24 make a lot of sense to recommend?

With DWI, a /nin doesn't put anything on the table that a Gax can't match or better. DWII closes the gap, and having Shadows to help the WHM (no need to heal DD's after AoE) also puts forward a stronger argument.

If you find your self pulling hate off your tank too much, get a better one.

He has far more important reasons for dying then his sub job. To simply say "Sub /nin" without first addressing the other issues is not only irresponsible, but it's also stupid. Subbing NIN also makes an already weak race (TaruTaru) even more of a push over for mobs if he doesn't have shadows up.

[IfritnoItazura]

So, am I missing something here or in a thread where someone's complaining about dying a lot wouldn't /Nin at any level past 24 make a lot of sense to recommend?


1. OP didn't have NIN.
2. OP's multi-death day apparently was due mostly out to bad luck.
3. /NIN doesn't help enough with (solo) tanking compared to /MNK, and at those levels WAR's are expected to tank frequently.

Before Lv.30, WAR/NIN is terrific for dual tanking, and is probably a slightly better DD than WAR/MNK if using one-handed axe. However, WAR/MNK is still the preferred solo tank, and WAR/NIN doesn't measure up to WAR/DRG for DD, especially when using two-handed axe.

If survivability while acting the DD is the only concern, then, yes, of course /NIN is the best for a WAR--next to having a good tank and healer(s).

[Mhurron]

Thank you for the helper guys. I'm surprised you didn't laugh at the equipment I had
I'll laugh if it makes you feel better.

[Slip]

With DWI, a /nin doesn't put anything on the table that a Gax can't match or better. DWII closes the gap, and having Shadows to help the WHM (no need to heal DD's after AoE) also puts forward a stronger argument.
Having shadows so the Whm doesn't need to heal a DD starts at 24, and as for G Axe, there's no reason you can't use G Axe as a War/Nin either, the 2 aren't mutually exclusive.

The real trade off you're looking at is G Axe + Shadows vs G Axe + a tiny amount of Str, HP and Boost. From what I've seen the difference is minimal at best at levels 20-30.

If you find your self pulling hate off your tank too much, get a better one.
My tank's fine. As a War I can pull hate off *any* tank for a brief while if I let loose. So my choice is a.) be a gimp DD and hold back so that the tank can keep hate or b.) find a way to mitigate the effect of occasionally getting hit. If Monk's Dodge JA was worth a damn that'd be a great answer too but sadly the SE Devs have decided that it's ok for /Nin to offer a broken level of damage mitigation but not for any other job to as well.

He has far more important reasons for dying then his sub job. To simply say "Sub /nin" without first addressing the other issues is not only irresponsible, but it's also stupid. Subbing NIN also makes an already weak race (TaruTaru) even more of a push over for mobs if he doesn't have shadows up.
Yeah, advice shouldn't end with "just sub /Nin, you'll be fine". That's completely different however from saying "never sub Nin, except maybe at 50". Before 50 /Nin has plenty to offer. What I'm objecting to is the idea that somehow DW2 is magically so much more wonderful than DW1 that it suddenly makes /Nin a useful sub at 50. An extra 5% delay reduction is not that staggering a deal.

What matters a lot more than DW2, is getting 2 Viking Axes with their insane +Acc at 48. That's what makes War/Nin's really shine at that level.

As for the original poster not having /Nin, that's fine. There's no reason that among the advice offered to him the idea of using /Nin for DDing once he hits 30 and can unlock it needs to be ruled out though.

The "No /Nin before 50" mantra that gets spit out so much makes it seem like that would be actively wrong, when in reality /Nin is a useful tool in a War's arsenal at many levels. /Mnk is too, and so is /Drg, each for different uses.

[Celeal]

Subjob choice goes with party setup and tactics. Choose the one that make sense. WAR/MNK can be great, so do WAR/NIN.

If the party setup is NIN/WAR, mage x 2, DD/NIN, DD/NIN, and WAR, it make a lot of sense for the WAR/NIN as DD + backup tank.

If the WAR is a tank and the party as a lot of healing power, debuffing and mp recovery, WAR/MNK tank works.

WAR/NIN can solo tank too if the mob is slow hitting and tank friendly (like Carb) and there is a BRD for Elergy + mage for Slow/Paralyze/Stun.

When partying as a WAR, please do not play it in auto-pilot mode. Even WAR/THF or WAR/SAM can be great.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

I'm levelling my WAR in a 3 person static which consists of:
WAR/MNK Hume (me)
RDM/WHM Elvaan
RDM/DRK Mithra
All level 53 atm.

... as the solo tank it is almost impossible to get consistent shadows off, and we all love wasting all that time casting only to be interrupted right near the end, eh?
When I solo tank, whether or not I can consistently get shadows back up depended largely on my support. Are your two RDM buddies making sure key debuffs stick and stay? By key, I mean stuff like Slow and Para. If you still can't get Ichi timing down with Slow and Para on the mob... well, maybe you should hold off /NIN tanking until BRDs have elegy.

[TehTyr]

Having shadows so the Whm doesn't need to heal a DD starts at 24, and as for G Axe, there's no reason you can't use G Axe as a War/Nin either, the 2 aren't mutually exclusive.

The real trade off you're looking at is G Axe + Shadows vs G Axe + a tiny amount of Str, HP and Boost. From what I've seen the difference is minimal at best at levels 20-30.

Not so minimal for a Taru-Taru. ;)

And yes, you can still use Gax with /nin, but what's the point? If you're going Gax, you can sub better jobs to up your damage out put.

My tank's fine. As a War I can pull hate off *any* tank for a brief while if I let loose. So my choice is a.) be a gimp DD and hold back so that the tank can keep hate or b.) find a way to mitigate the effect of occasionally getting hit. If Monk's Dodge JA was worth a damn that'd be a great answer too but sadly the SE Devs have decided that it's ok for /Nin to offer a broken level of damage mitigation but not for any other job to as well.

Tanks can "Go all out" too, you know.

Personally, I've never had a problem with Dodge. Sure it isn't a "OMG PERFECT DODGE IN A JA!", but it's a nice enough bonus to take a little of the heat off the healers. Focus is awesome though.

Yeah, advice shouldn't end with "just sub /Nin, you'll be fine". That's completely different however from saying "never sub Nin, except maybe at 50". Before 50 /Nin has plenty to offer. What I'm objecting to is the idea that somehow DW2 is magically so much more wonderful than DW1 that it suddenly makes /Nin a useful sub at 50. An extra 5% delay reduction is not that staggering a deal.

What matters a lot more than DW2, is getting 2 Viking Axes with their insane +Acc at 48. That's what makes War/Nin's really shine at that level.

I was never saying "Never sub /nin before", so please don't try and alter the perception of my posts.

In a party where you can bring everything a ninja has to offer to the table, like a LS party (see first post *cough*), it's a great sub and everything is happy with the world. However, if you'll be levelling in pub parties all the way, IMO, you'd be safer as /mnk. There are also situations where a /mnk is vastly more useful then /nin.

Also, the idea of two viking axes was kind of assumed... this -is- a warrior forum, right?

As for the original poster not having /Nin, that's fine. There's no reason that among the advice offered to him the idea of using /Nin for DDing once he hits 30 and can unlock it needs to be ruled out though.

It never was.

The "No /Nin before 50" mantra that gets spit out so much makes it seem like that would be actively wrong, when in reality /Nin is a useful tool in a War's arsenal at many levels. /Mnk is too, and so is /Drg, each for different uses.

It's a mantra that pales in comparison to the "You should sub nin". 90% of the time, the people offering the /nin advise are doing so -only- because every one else has -told- them that it's the proper way to go.

IMO, I see no advantage to subbing nin until 50, for many reasons, including DWII. Sure, the shadows are nice, but there aren't many mobs that it'll come in -real- handy. It's pretty safe to say that after the first level break, things start hitting harder, your tanks start getting their AF gear, and the gap between DD and tank widens.

You also summed it up pretty well; /nin is a tool. A single tool in a very large tool box that is the WAR job. Over stating it's importance is what gets people to start rejecting WAR invites just because they aren't /nin.

When I solo tank, whether or not I can consistently get shadows back up depended largely on my support. Are your two RDM buddies making sure key debuffs stick and stay? By key, I mean stuff like Slow and Para. If you still can't get Ichi timing down with Slow and Para on the mob... well, maybe you should hold off /NIN tanking until BRDs have elegy.

All the mobs are enfeebled at all times. Like I said, consistency is the big thing. Drives me crazy getting the timing down pat, only to get some ant using Sand Trap, or a gobbie to use goblin rush, etc. Last time I subbed /nin though, I went through some 600 tools in a few levels and no one died, so I don't think my timing needs -that- much work.
(Mind you, in the last 3 levels as /mnk, no one has died either, so...)

To be quite honest, since the RDM/WHM is staying out of battle and has Refresh/Dark Staff/Tranquil Mind/Ginger Cookies/Convert, MP is less of an issue then it use to be. So much so, that the second RDM usually has near full MP by the end of the battle. The problem lies with the fact that if I sub a /nin, the amount of dmg I take goes up, so I am forced to Shadow my self, if I am constantly shadowing my self, then suddenly our party only has a RDM and half of a WAR doing dmg. /mnk allows me to take acceptable dmg, while also allowing me to focus on putting out as much dmg as I can.
(Counter with Gax, Double Attack with Gax, nothing beats sturmwind till at least 55, meat instead of fish, etc.)

Also, I'm not quite sure what you're talking about BRD wise... by static, I mean it's the three of us, and no one else. The reason for this is simple; the RDM/WHM is my Sister, and the RDM/DRK is my Mum. So keeping them alive is a very risky business indeed.
(And you lot think you have it hard when a LS member dies, HA!)

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Also, I'm not quite sure what you're talking about BRD wise... by static, I mean it's the three of us, and no one else. The reason for this is simple; the RDM/WHM is my Sister, and the RDM/DRK is my Mum. So keeping them alive is a very risky business indeed.
(And you lot think you have it hard when a LS member dies, HA!)
Ah. When I read "static with 3", I thought you meant you 3 always start the party and fill up with 3 pick-up members. For what you're doing, I'm more used to hearing "Trio" than "static". Or perhaps "static trio" would be more precise.

[Celeal]

I had a few parties between level 50 ~ 60 as DD using WAR/MNK. Alternate between Aggressor and Focus with attack food is awesome for low IT mob ^o^! It works well when Focus or Aggressor yields enough acc+ to hit the exp mob, works well with both G.Axe or Shield + Axe.

I had tanked in one party as WAR/MNK at level 58. Unfortunately, it does not work well for me. Maybe it is the pickup party setup, or me/party members did not prepared for WAR/MNK tank style, i don't know. However, to me WAR/MNK is a solid tank:
1. Attack food + Defender all time + Defensive gear = decent damage migration with decent damage output.
2. Alternate between Focus and Aggressor/Dodge = accuracy buff at all time. Focus 2 minutes out of 5 minutes, while Aggressor 3 minutes out of 5 minutes, and Dodge covers the Aggressor's evasion lost.
3. Good old Provoke -> Boost -> Boost -> Provoke... counter.
4. WAR AF for tanking.

However, for sushi build, i would use war/nin (Axe) or war/sam (G.Axe)

[Sevv]

PLEASE do not tell him this. There's already enough Warriors in the game going /NIN at his level when /MNK is superior for both tanking and damage. The fact that he's a Tarutaru might be part of the problem.
If he's tanking, better gears and party support and if doing damage, hate management are the resolutions to his problem...not shadows.

your gonna outdamage me with an axe war/mnk to war/nin? lol /nin is for those who want to use one handed weapons as well as those who pull alot of hate.

hell when i solo rng nms as drg i sub /nin due to eagle shot and i am still able to use healing breath.

now if he wants to use great axe or other 2handed weapons /thf @ 30 and /sam @60 are the way to go.

[IfritnoItazura]

your gonna outdamage me with an axe war/mnk to war/nin? lol /nin is for those who want to use one handed weapons as well as those who pull alot of hate.

OP uses two-handed axe, BTW. ^_^;

now if he wants to use great axe or other 2handed weapons /thf @ 30 and /sam @60 are the way to go.

It's easy to become an MP sponge with WAR/THF at Lv.30+; SA + Sturmwind is very difficult to resist, and the average tank players simply won't be able to hold the monsters if the second hit is a critical hit as well or if Double Attack proc'ed when Berserk is up.

With /DRG (and that latent earring), it's 4% haste, which means 4% more DoT and 4% more TP over time, while Jump + big axe = nice TP and damage. This is easier to walk the hate line with, I think, without losing ground on damage.

WAR/SAM actually looks like a decent combination, even at Lv.30. Zanshin and Store TP are helpful on the damage front, while Third Eye just before Sturmwind or Warcry will lessen the risks.

Of course, all the above were about DD'ing; WAR/MNK for solo tanking and WAR/NIN for duo tanking are the way to go if not DD'ing.

Edit:
I had tanked in one party as WAR/MNK at level 58. Unfortunately, it does not work well for me. Maybe it is the pickup party setup, or me/party members did not prepared for WAR/MNK tank style, i don't know.

Hmm. What was the level difference between the party and the monsters? I'm going to guess that WAR/MNK is actually a better tank for VT than IT monsters, especially using the attack food + defender style.

Even on PLD, fighting IT monsters comfortably requires Defender at times, and my PLD is always on defense food during exp parties. I can't imagine a WAR/MNK after Lv.40 to be having an easy time tanking IT's alone.

[Celeal]

Edit:
Hmm. What was the level difference between the party and the monsters? I'm going to guess that WAR/MNK is actually a better tank for VT than IT monsters, especially using the attack food + defender style.

Even on PLD, fighting IT monsters comfortably requires Defender at times, and my PLD is always on defense food during exp parties. I can't imagine a WAR/MNK after Lv.40 to be having an easy time tanking IT's alone.

It has been a while since that party, I could not remember what was the party setup. We were at the Gusval Tunnel (spelling*) exp-ing on Carbs (and Goblin, if it is in the way and could not avoided).

In theory it can be done, that is why I tried WAR/MNK tank at that party. However, I guess the entire party (including myself) was not prepared: I feel very awkward to main tank as WAR/MNK since I have not do it for 20+ levels. From the support I seen in that party, I bet that the rest of the party had never work with WAR/MNK tank since the Dunes.

My conclusion is practice is required. If the player does not party with WAR/MNK tank for many levels (lvl 30+), when situation is need for the player to support a WAR/MNK, the player would not have the experience or skill to work with the WAR/MNK in those levels.

P.S.
For MP sponge with WAR/THF at Lv.30+, I would also say practice is required. For the first few try in parties as WAR/THF at lvl 30+, it is the MP sponge very easily. The more WAR/THF to practice, the more experience and knowledge for WAR/THF to ride the hate. I had use WAR/THF exclusively from level 42 to 48. It is true that I pull hate with SA + Sturmwind, however, it does not matter if you make sure the mob dies within 10 or 20 seconds afterwards.

[Lmnop]

Hmm what do you know? This thread became a SJ debate.

I solo tanked as war/nin @38 with a great party. I duo tanked as war/nin 40-41 with a great party. War/nin has its uses pre-50. But War/mnk is reliable. I solo tanked as war/mnk umm.... all over the place. And every time I had a party that would let me, I vastly preferred it to my time as war/nin.

the "no war/nin to 50" is a statement of averages. 48, 50, and 55 are the big levels. I don't think I have to spell out what comes at those 3 levels anymore, but the idea is that it won't be great (for DD) until some, if not all, of those conditions are met.

No blanket statements, guys. War/nin is just a tool. Don't be a tool, 'cuz then you're just a KI snob. Be a Warrior instead and be ready for anything.

[Slip]

I was never saying "Never sub /nin before", so please don't try and alter the perception of my posts.

IMO, I see no advantage to subbing nin until 50, for many reasons, including DWII.
And I'm altering perceptions of your post how again?

I think on the overall topic of /nin vs /mnk vs /sam vs /thf we're going to have to agree to disagree. I see all of them being useful depending on the role you need to play, LS party or not, over a wider range of levels than you seem to.

[Sevv]

i had nin unlocked when i dinged 30 so i made the switch i still tank on my war at 64 with /nin lol aht urghan mobs rock =P

[Clever Ninja]

And I'm altering perceptions of your post how again?

I think on the overall topic of /nin vs /mnk vs /sam vs /thf we're going to have to agree to disagree. I see all of them being useful depending on the role you need to play, LS party or not, over a wider range of levels than you seem to.

Um, see no advantage to Nin till 50 =/= never sub /NIN before 50. If you actually think they both mean the same thing then you should stop posting and brush up on reading comprehension.

And frankly, WAR/MNK is superior IMO. Great Axes are WAY superior to Axes before Rampage, Boost increases attack power of your attacks every 15 seconds and if your tanking makes holding hate incredibly easy. Dodge helps tanking, or is good if you get aggro and need to avoid some hits. And even if you do get hit, the extra Vit and HP from MNK at that level help lessen the damage. And frankly, even if you do use G. Axe as a WAR/NIN(which I've had to do in little mini TP burns in Altepa and Crawlers), it'd be stronger on MNK than on NIN.

So unless the party situation like mentioned above demands subbing NIN, or if your party needs a second voke for a Pre-37 NIN tank, subbing MNK is more effective. Hell, subbing DRG would be more effective.

[Sodo_Leviathan]

Well Since you need help with war ima give you some and not join the fight with what sub is better......... Try to get a pt with a mnk/war or War in it so when you drop to low hp they can voke off you trust me it works also try to keep the best gear for Def not Att but try to keep Att up so you dont lose hate also make a great provoke Macro..... that should be best for you while your learning ...... btw stick to mnk sub If you can't lvl War atm nin is not going to be any easier plus ots cost alot of gil! >.>

[TehTyr]

And I'm altering perceptions of your post how again?

I think on the overall topic of /nin vs /mnk vs /sam vs /thf we're going to have to agree to disagree. I see all of them being useful depending on the role you need to play, LS party or not, over a wider range of levels than you seem to.

Clever Ninja pretty much said what I was about to.

[Raydeus]

Heheh, this really turned into a subjob thread. :rofl:


About /NIN before 50.

I don't think it's about "You should sub NIN since 24" VS "You shouldn't sub NIN till 50", but more like:

Even though /NIN's usefulness is best after 50 (I'd say 56), that doesn't mean there arent situations where /NIN before 50 is what works best.

There simply isn't a rule about subs because it all depends on the situation.

Depending on what you are doing, the party setup, the party player's skill, and everything else NIN, MNK, SAM, THF, etc. subs will be the best for the specific situation. Only lazy/unskilled players pick only one sub and stick to it no matter what, without even considering what's actually going on in the party.

[Armando]

Aside from dual blink tanking, /NIN is useful starting at 24 if and only if this condition is met: You're using your shadows, and in turn saving the healers MP. If you're not using your shadows frequently then the sub job is pointless. If you ARE putting those shadows to good use, then /NIN's overall usefulness will depend on how much MP you're saving the healers and how strapped for MP the party is overall. Parties where healing power is low benefit greatly from it.

I'm pro-/MNK, don't get me wrong. But /NIN is useful as soon as Utsusemi: Ichi becomes available. There's a time and place to use it - as long as the player understands that (rather than using it on everything and for everything) then it's no problem. But even so, notice that the advantage to /NIN is not the Dual Wield but rather the damage mitigation. Like the others said, it's around 50 that /NIN becomes good for DD'ing.

But, yeah. Solo tank = /MNK. Just don't overhunt. Oh, and Shield Break everything in the face. Seriously.

And yeah, that whole bit about sub jobs being situational is so true.

[Jei]

To shield break mandies in the face you'll need to be a taru obviously.

Taru > all

[Mhurron]

Taru > all
You could have saved yourself some typing and just said that.