How do we know ToS is being up held?

[Akashimo]

Ok, I'm just gonna cut to the point here. One of my HNMLS leaders was banned from a false claim of using POS at ulli. While 1) She doesn't use these hacks 2) GMs and Customer Service been giving BS on to why and how this happened and 3) What insurances do we have that they won't ban us normal players on a whem while RMT that get away with stuff?

Its total BS on what happened and why....

[Murphie]

We don't know. We can only assume. I've never known anyone who didn't actually bot or cheat in some way to be banned, but that's me. Other people may know folks who are 100% innocent without any doubt who still got banned. But I don't know those people.

[Wise Donkey]

In all of recorded history there has never been a "perfect" system of justice. Innocents do get caught in the crossfire, though I do believe these occurances to be few and far between. On the same token, as Murphie said, we don't know we can only assume. Unless you physically watched said person play FFXI you don't know what hack/bot/cheat they may or may not be using, despite what they say. I'm not saying your friend is guilty, but I am not saying they are innocent either.

[Akashimo]

After more talking, we came up with a plausable reason, kind of far off but far off.

--Not my views, but it does seem to hold plausablitiy to it
***SE is working hand-in-hand with the RMT and server costs make them claim honest users as rmt seeing how RMT brings in higher profits and that ppl getting new accounts and then possibliy buy gil to power level back to 75. With server consolodations coming in the futures from these bannings.

[Murphie]

Conspiracy theories ftw.

[Akashimo]

But, haven't you noticed any MAJOR changes with rmt around the areas that you normally see them? Yea... most I've seen around throught out playing FFXI very, very, very few are banned. Kind of suspesious with the numbers SE is saying.

[Murphie]

I don't spend my days tracking the RMT on my server. Besides, these bannings aren't just of RMT. They are of regular players, because guess what? Players cheat too.

[Jethreal]

I personally have severe doubts that SE would couple with RMT activites. Whether the account belongs to Joe, Bill or Dope that sells gil, the account still generated it's 12.95 per month. If anything you'd want more normal players playing so that you have fewer people on at a time to reduce server load, as oppossed to gs'ers who man a system 24/7. Also consider that 6100 accounts over 32 servers is still only 190/server and well a /sea all typically shows around 4000 ppl on at any time I log in.

[eticket109]

Cliffs: Your friend got banned so SE is in league with RMT?

Am I right in interpreting that as your stance here?

[Taskmage]

RMT probably paid SE to develop FFXI in the first place to create a new venue for them to do business. Don't even get me started on their ties with the church. :P

[Anaki]

in terms of tos not being upheld. it itself is upheld if you break tos you get banned :P there are always mistakes theres no such thing as perfect. althought the GM policy im pretty sure is not 100% upheld for i have seen GMs to me state laws that prevent them from investigating gil seller even though the actualy laws have nothing to do with that. unless i was a GM which im not


edit: really taskmage just wait for the bannings to start with the reason entitled "heretic"

[Neomage]

After more talking, we came up with a plausable reason, kind of far off but far off.

--Not my views, but it does seem to hold plausablitiy to it
***SE is working hand-in-hand with the RMT and server costs make them claim honest users as rmt seeing how RMT brings in higher profits and that ppl getting new accounts and then possibliy buy gil to power level back to 75. With server consolodations coming in the futures from these bannings.

I'm all for conspiracy theories, but this is just retarded.

1) SE can genrate gil out of midair, so why do they need fishbots and vokebots?
2) SE can reduce droprate of in-demand items to 0.0001% then sell them for real money.
3) If SE DID use bots, they would insta-level them to 75 insted of having 6-man burn parties of ajsafh, fhrdsjg, fjvhdrtgbf, thsduh, sodfhrsg, and the infamous dfjurrr.

EDIT: For clarification:

1) Selling botted items gives supply and reduces demand, lowering price and cost of gil.
2) Instead of using RMT to stop players from gainign drops.
3) Instead of having to level to 75 over and over again.

[Illuen]

I've always found, when people were banned, and their friends proclaim innocence, it has always been either

A) The friend believing the exploit/tool their friend used isn't a "big deal" or

B) Their friend is lieing to them. SE examines all claims seriously, hence why even if a person looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, they're not banned for being RMT without absolute proof. If they're this serious when examining people who are probable RMT, do you not think they'd be just as serious while examining normal, "Non-RMT" cheaters?

[Mhurron]

RMT probably paid SE to develop FFXI in the first place to create a new venue for them to do business. Don't even get me started on their ties with the church. :P SE couldn't have done it alone, there had to be a Second Developer.

[Anaki]

yknow what how about a micrsoft pays for the gil sellers accounts and ps2s because its bad publicity for sony :P

[Wise Donkey]

After more talking, we came up with a plausable reason, kind of far off but far off.

--Not my views, but it does seem to hold plausablitiy to it
***SE is working hand-in-hand with the RMT and server costs make them claim honest users as rmt seeing how RMT brings in higher profits and that ppl getting new accounts and then possibliy buy gil to power level back to 75. With server consolodations coming in the futures from these bannings.

*X-Files music*

I tend to agree with Illuen.

[Akashimo]

I know some of these are now after being able to calm a bit down with spamming hexa strike. But still, would you stand back and take or watch someone take a false claim/mistake of one of the banns? I mean, would you if it was someone you heard in vent crying and not even being sure she wants to come back is it is in the end a temp or considers the option of starting all over again, even with help from hnmls members? And repeatedly stated she doesn't used what the report said when its the very thing she doesn't stand against? Something is fishy to me and how these numbers can be added up one way or another is too tipsy to say nothing about either side.
Edit: And I wonder, where can we see the evidence to support their actions?
double edit:
You have been connected to SEL Agent Gurinder.
SEL Agent Gurinder: Hello Leela, One moment please, while I read your question. Thank You!
Leela : good evening
SEL Agent Gurinder: I have just checked your account. It's a US acocunt. you need to contact the US customer service.
Leela : oke
SEL Agent Gurinder: I don't have access to your account.
Leela : one question, on the screen it reads that i have to contact the PoL information center, I can not find that
SEL Agent Gurinder: We don't have access to your account. You need to contact them. Thank you for your time.
Leela : I understand that u dont have access, could you plz. just tell me where to find the PoL information center?
Leela : Is it located on the website or in PoL?
SEL Agent Gurinder: Well, arguing won't help you here. I don't have access to your account. Please contact the US customer service. You may now close this window.
Your session has ended. You may now close this window.
Now is that rude to 1, asking for some simple help and 2, very very odd.....espically after 5 years of service, you'd think they improve their customer relations.......

[Wise Donkey]

Edit: And I wonder, where can we see the evidence to support their actions?

You can't. FFXI is SE's world and they grant you the right to play in FFXI for a monthly fee. They do not need a reason to cancel your service, it is theirs to cancel whenever they choose for whatever reason they choose, and they are under no obligation, other than courtesy, to tell you why.

It is not a legal matter, players have no rights in this situation, you agree to SE's ability to do this every time you click that "Accept" button and play. If you seriously believe that SE is unjust in their methods then stop paying their monthly fee.

If someone I knew contacted me, crying over their banned FFXI account, the first thing I would do is tell them that maybe it is a good thing, because they are obviously a little too attached to a virtual world.

If it were a case of their personal freedom and human rights I would cry with them and fight with them every inch of the way against the evil that is SE. Alas, it is not their personal freedom. It is not an issue of human rights. IT'S A FRICKIN' VIDEO GAME! GET OVER IT AND MOVE ON!

[Akashimo]

I mean how often does the thought of loosing your account comes to your mind while playing if these things never happen? Not likely aye? And your argument of being "attached to a virtual world", you're playing it, you've taken time and effort into getting far as you have right? If it were a question of starting all over again if the same thing happened to me, I'd really wouldn't know what I'd pick....

[Murphie]

It all seems like much ado over nothing to me. Your friend lost their account, which is too bad, but SE does have the right to do that at any time. No matter how upset someone may be, that doesn't change that fundamental fact. It may be unfortunate, but that's just the way things go.

Your friend now has a choice. Either A.) Stop Playing FFXI, or B.) Buy another copy of the game and start over.

[eticket109]

Its in the TOS that they can ban anyone at any time for any reason they see fit. So even if it is true that they banned her for 'nothing', which I doubt, then they're still upholding the TOS.

If it isn't a legitimate ban then I guess it sucks for her.

Everyone always bitches about SE. Have you played any other games? FFXI is one of the only MMOs that even cares about or fights RMT.
I understand everytime there's a ban people see gilsellers out and about and think SE isn't doing anything. Well, what are most of them doing? Camping Ulli 24/7? Camping shit in SSG all day? Sorry, but that isn't against the TOS. Yes, they're moving the money over to bank accounts and selling the gil... but that's what SE is banning. Those are the accounts you'll probably never see, unless of course you buy gil. They aren't going to ban the 'field agents' until they hack or bot... and a lot of them don't.

[Murphie]

Every time there is a mass banning, people immediately start checking the known RMT. And then they see a lot of them there, and get all angry. What about all the regular players who cheat? They are all over the place.

[little ninja]

After more talking, we came up with a plausable reason, kind of far off but far off.
--Not my views, but it does seem to hold plausablitiy to it
***SE is working hand-in-hand with the RMT and server costs make them claim honest users as rmt seeing how RMT brings in higher profits and that ppl getting new accounts and then possibliy buy gil to power level back to 75. With server consolodations coming in the futures from these bannings.

Ive been saying this for as long as RMT have been in the game. An trust me i was treated like Fox all these years too..

They dont inforce ToS. Its just there to be a legal binding contract for them to do with there actions whatever they want. Ive been griefed by the same guys over an over. Been /telled spammed, Harrassed. AN so on. Nothing ever happened. Im told to us /blist. Yeah right like im gonna do that after i spent 4+ hours in a zone waiting for somethign to pop. Or they say to turn it off in the features. Thats fine but how am i suppose to catch /tells from shell members, Or friends..

They need to do away with the GMs in game. An go to the WoW approuch an homepoint stones. Seriously i have yet to meet a helpful one. No matter how nice or Aholish i am. Same robotic response..

[Murphie]

What do GMs and Homepoint stones have to do with each other?

[Minimee]

if your friend is innocent why dont they contact Se customer service and find out what happened? if innocent means they used windowers and no plug ins they arent innocent. if they changed .dat files maybe not so innocent either. if they only used windowers on occasion they arent innocent. im not saying they are guilty, im saying maybe they arent as innocent as they say. i have known people to use windowers many of them friends. i have not known any of them to get caught or banned. i have been in partys with people and see them weapon skill just as i hit 100% tp. wild guess they had windowers and plug ins.
now if your friend is 100% innocent they need to contact someone and get it taken care of. i also would be ready to commit suicide if this happened to me and i lost everything i have accomplished in the 5 years ive been playing. yes i would quit for good, no need to start over. this is the reason i have never even looked for windowers or would have considered buying gil (right or wrong). the fear of losing my account is greater than all things. i wont even let my brother have my account info for this same reason.
really hope your friend is innocent and gets everythign fixed.

[Murphie]

if your friend is innocent why dont they contact Se customer service and find out what happened? if innocent means they used windowers and no plug ins they arent innocent. if they changed .dat files maybe not so innocent either. if they only used windowers on occasion they arent innocent. im not saying they are guilty, im saying maybe they arent as innocent as they say. i have known people to use windowers many of them friends. i have not known any of them to get caught or banned. i have been in partys with people and see them weapon skill just as i hit 100% tp. wild guess they had windowers and plug ins.
now if your friend is 100% innocent they need to contact someone and get it taken care of. i also would be ready to commit suicide if this happened to me and i lost everything i have accomplished in the 5 years ive been playing. yes i would quit for good, no need to start over. this is the reason i have never even looked for windowers or would have considered buying gil (right or wrong). the fear of losing my account is greater than all things. i wont even let my brother have my account info for this same reason.
really hope your friend is innocent and gets everythign fixed.I would certainly hope not. It IS just a game. Five years or not.

[JennifARGH]

This whole thread is hilarious XD

Oh! And SE is in cahoots with all the child murderers and seal clubbers, which are getting their funds from RMT! And they all hate kittens and Jesus!

AND ALL OF SQUENIX DID YOUR MOTHERS. WHILE THEY WERE PREGNANT WITH YOU! :O

Conspiracy!

[Murphie]

I don't see what's so ridiculous. Doesn't everyone hate kittens and Jesus?

[Akashimo]

Weeeee, off track. Anyways, I do agree with Little Ninja on GMs. One of the formor FFXI player that is a friend of my friend found a new artictle or blog post, (not sure which gotta check when he gets on vent) by a Formor GM said that GMs who wants to help the players the way we wanted them to either get yelled at or get fired. @.@ And on a note about WoW... >_>; 10 day trial and i kind of like how I haven't seen an AH yet so far... lol

[Illuen]

Ninja, your logic seems to confuse me a bit. This person is harassing you in /tells, and you won't blist them, and then whine when the tells go away? At some point, you have to take personal responsibility, and look to see where you could of defused the situation yourself before going to the GMs.

Murphie, that same quote stuck out to me as particularly weird. I've been a member of games online that would go on for three/four years and then just poof on you one day, without any warning, because the site runner was bored, or didn't want to pay for BW, and you just have to learn to see what a game is in of itself.

[Omni]

SE couldn't have done it alone, there had to be a Second Developer.

yea, those were my sentiments exactly.

second developer on the grassy workstation.

[Murphie]

So now the GMs aren't allowed to help us. It's like a conspiracy theory within a conspiracy theory. SE wants their GMs to provide terrible service! Of course!

[Ziero]

Ive been saying this for as long as RMT have been in the game. An trust me i was treated like Fox all these years too..

They dont inforce ToS. Its just there to be a legal binding contract for them to do with there actions whatever they want. Ive been griefed by the same guys over an over. Been /telled spammed, Harrassed. AN so on. Nothing ever happened. Im told to us /blist. Yeah right like im gonna do that after i spent 4+ hours in a zone waiting for somethign to pop. Or they say to turn it off in the features. Thats fine but how am i suppose to catch /tells from shell members, Or friends..


If someone is harassing you by /tells, you should use the blist function. That's what it's there for. Unless you liked arguing with them, in that case it's your problem. If they're just competing for the same mob that you want then that's not against the rules at all either, no matter how long you were there.

Weeeee, off track. Anyways, I do agree with Little Ninja on GMs. One of the formor FFXI player that is a friend of my friend found a new artictle or blog post, (not sure which gotta check when he gets on vent) by a Formor GM said that GMs who wants to help the players the way we wanted them to either get yelled at or get fired. @.@ And on a note about WoW... >_>; 10 day trial and i kind of like how I haven't seen an AH yet so far... lol

Sadly even GMs have a set of rules to follow, in fact that was highlighted not too long ago in an announcement by SE themselves. They have to act within those rules set by SE, that includes following the proper procedures and guidelines. I'm sure there are lots of GMs who would love to drop the ban hammer on all sorts of players, but unless that player actually breaks the set rules then there is nothing *they* can or should do. But when a GM does do something outside of their own guidelines, whether it makes us happy or not, they would have to face the consequences of breaking their own rules. As cool as a vigilante GM who bans the 'bad people' on a whim sounds, in the end it would hurt people far more then it would help.

As for this entire conspiricy theory about SE and GSers, that is *THE* dumbest thing I have heard in a long time. You people seem to ignore the fact that the developers *LIKE* this game. They like making it, they like running it and they like the fact that we as players enjoy it. It's their world and their dreams and we're sharing in it and that, regardless of money, makes them happy. They're trying to bring their vision to life and give us something enjoyable at the same time, you really think they would do everything they do just to throw it all away to so some random RMT companies?

[little ninja]

So wait a minute you want me to do the job of a GM now? I mean its clearly harrassment. Not only is it harrassment, But the ToS clearly states spamming /tells is a very big no no . JUST PROOF That ToS isnt inforced, Just a scape goat for when S.E does ban ya, Or you have thoughts of sueing.. As for why not just black list him to begin with. All you have to do is go sit in a pop window for a few hours, An then ask yourself why wont you /blist.

I got stuck twice. The first time was in Oldtown, An the GM gave me a long lecture on the importance of carring a warp scroll with me. I kindly stated im a nin i dont need warp scrolls. The second time was in Dyn windy, I fell off the bridge an the Gm told me to drop my glass, or just stick it out in the water So when i complained he managed to find a spot near the area with the most mobs to drop me down. Not in all the empty space we had just cleared.

[Murphie]

If you don't need warp scrolls, then why were you calling a GM? He was just going to send you to your HP anyway.

[Aeolus]

Because he can blow himself up when he wants to warp? He cant do that when hes stuck somewhere with no mobs. Whether its his pc's fault or the servers lags fault it doesnt really matter, the GMs are there to assist with problems like this and most are very willing anyway. He seems to just have got an asshole to help him. They dont send you to HP either, they can warp you to anywhere they want which is usually just where you are supposed to be and not in the middle of aggro mobs.

[DakAttack]

I knew a lot of people on Seraph that were into shady business, and they all lied about it. I'm not going to say you're lieing to us about anything, but somebody may be lieing to you.

[eticket109]

for future reference though... if you ever get stuck in the water in dynamis-windy, you can actually climb out. there are a couple of spots where the path hits the water and they work like one way gates. you can get out of the water but not back in. the problem arises with anything that's repopped there.

[Murphie]

Fair enough. I forgot that you have to be in-combat.

Regardless, Little Ninja's experience seems like the exception, and not the norm. In all my years of playing, I've never known a GM to lecture someone for getting stuck without a warp ability. If I was a betting man, I'd put money on the fact that LN was probably snippy with the GM, and the GM responded in kind.

[little ninja]

Fair enough. I forgot that you have to be in-combat.
Regardless, Little Ninja's experience seems like the exception, and not the norm. In all my years of playing, I've never known a GM to lecture someone for getting stuck without a warp ability. If I was a betting man, I'd put money on the fact that LN was probably snippy with the GM, and the GM responded in kind.

Actually i talk to a GM just below the level of brown noser. His actual first response was " well why dont you just use a warp scroll." my response was "Well i would if i had one on me but i fogot to grab one, An figured ohh well im a Ninja, I can go boom." I then gave this expression =). He then said to hold on for a moment. Then came back with the warp scroll lecture.

E ticket, I tried to make my way thru the waterways but ran into view of some mobs, An figured i was SOL. Thats when i ran back to where i was an called a gm. I told the GM why do i want to miss out on my currency for a paid run, An the potential lot of a Monster Helm.. Which i seen drop once in 100 runs.. This was only after he said i could break my glass. or warp out an comeback..

[Murphie]

Without screen caps of your convo, we have no way of knowing if that's true or not. Regardless, it's still not the average experience with GMs that I've seen or heard of over the past few years.

[eticket109]

E ticket, I tried to make my way thru the waterways but ran into view of some mobs, An figured i was SOL.

I'm pretty sure they can't aggro in the water. I ran under a couple mobs when I was down there I think. I can't remember for sure. It was funny though because my wyvern was stuck on the paths and would keep disappearing and reappearing on the nearest path. We had already cleared and were near the end, so I just ran around taking pictures.

[little ninja]

Without screen caps of your convo, we have no way of knowing if that's true or not. Regardless, it's still not the average experience with GMs that I've seen or heard of over the past few years.

Yeah this happened a few months after the release of CoP, As for screenies, Sadly i lost all pics i took over the years when my hard drive just crashed one day. Stupid western digital, why ive gone thru 3 of them is beyond me...

I'm pretty sure they can't aggro in the water. I ran under a couple mobs when I was down there I think. I can't remember for sure. It was funny though because my wyvern was stuck on the paths and would keep disappearing and reappearing on the nearest path. We had already cleared and were near the end, so I just ran around taking pictures.

Just my luck they would have aggroed me an popped a zillion mobs.. I wasnt gonna risk it, not with so much time left in Dyn windy..

[Macht]

Yeah this happened a few months after the release of CoP, As for screenies, Sadly i lost all pics i took over the years when my hard drive just crashed one day. Stupid western digital, why ive gone thru 3 of them is beyond me...

What the? Gone through 3 Western Digitial HDs????

That sounds highely... unlikely. WD HDs are among the best harddrives, they just don't seem to produce them in the same mass quantity that Maxtor and Seagate does. Both of those HDs have been horrible for me.

For the OP and the rest here, a similar situation like this had already happened. You've got the GMs that just do a bad job, much like when you run into a bad cop who had a bad day. Just contact then directly by phone and be polite (No. 1 reason that a person doesn't get a positive return is they were not polite), ask about the account and if you have to request to speak to someone of higher authority.

The person that had this happen to them got their account back and everything was just fine. The GM to help him even appologized for the previous GMs actions. The thing that makes me wonder about this situation though is that the person got so emotional before ever even trying more to get their account back.

That emotion outburst is a common action to get sympathy, if the person was not at fault they wouldn't need sympathy or to get a group in uproar so quickly. I have to admit that I'm suspicious about the behavior. If I know I wasn't at fault for something I seek higher authority to overwrite the other, and intentionally do it through as much of a face-to-face method as I can (This means phone or visit the appropriate location in person). Above all else though you must and I mean must always be polite, and yes I'm saying Leela's conversation was not upto to par for a polite conversation.

Quite simply the message "I understand that u dont have access, could you plz. just tell me where to find the PoL information center?" could be viewed as an inpolite response. Especially when the person is likely to have a note on their account that they have to contend with.

As for evidence of SE actually banning RMT, though it isn't obvious to most I'd say that I'm fairly sure SE is banning on most part the right people with the PMs I've seen. To put is simply some people have mistaken our website to be SQUARE-ENIX's website, and we've seen actuall gilsellers trying to get their account back through us.

Just surprised that they would think noone will notice all those accounts having the exact same credit card #.

[little ninja]

[QUOTE=Macht;666810]What the? Gone through 3 Western Digitial HDs????
That sounds highely... unlikely. WD HDs are among the best harddrives, they just don't seem to produce them in the same mass quantity that Maxtor and Seagate does. Both of those HDs have been horrible for me.
QUOTE]

Actually im on my third one, This last time i thought id have goofed something up so i took it to a professional. He tested it an said it was fryed. I asked if it was something with how it was built of if something was going bad. He told me that i was still pretty much up to date with all my parts. An they were fine. An he wouldnt recommend getting anything new..

But it does sound odd since i went with WD since its always had rave reviews. But with my last 2 it made some loud clicks. a day or 2 later. it sounded like it was running above its max rpms. Then it shut down.. =/ 10 months an my system is running like a lean mean oiled machine. Knocks on wood...