Party without RDM or BRD or COR, what to do?

[Celeal]

I have a fair amount of pick up parties without rdm or brd or cor (none LFG). I understand/expect that the xp won't be as good, I am okay with less xp (better than no xp) and as long as it is fun.

At least each time I learn something new and gain some improvement under these kind of parties (stress).

I am just wondering what methods/tactics would our fellow PLD use in this situation?

Usually I try to ask party to stay in ToAU for Sanction Refresh. I also have Dark Staff swap in between pulls (if the puller is smart enough to give me one tick of /heal ....). Is there any camp/mob okay with this condition?

I don't have Parade Gorget yet, don't have cooking for making juice in the field. I am wondering how effective is Parade Gorget (latent HP > 85% Refresh), or making juice in between battles compare to Dark Staff + /heal? The pullers usually tries to beat the clock for exp chain (cannot blame them, it is their job), and how often my HP is above 85% varies from one healer to another.

Without RDM or BRD or COR, who is going to take over Dispel or Sleep?

If there is a BLU in party then there is some form of "Dispel." Maybe RNG can use Acid Bolt too, I am not sure (very rare to have RNG in my party after the range weapon adjustment).

Is Sleep Bolt effective for crowd/link control? How many crossbow users try it in xp parties? I am wondering how many BLM or WHM/BLM or BLU or DRK out there have their Sleep spell functional in xp parties?

I have party with BLU prepared for "Dispel" duty. I have partied with WHM/BRD for Ballad, which is pushing the limit, but it works in a certain extend.

Recently, I have rarely partied with any BLM or WHM/BLM that can promptly sleep the mob. Most seems to forgot Elemental Seal + Sleep? I am wondering how effective is BLU's 2hr + Blue magic form of Sleep? Never seen any BLU do that during emengency (actually, for all BLU that I partied, I only see one and only one BLU use his 2hr once for WS). I don't expect DRK to try to land Sleep. I am not sure if Sleep Bolt is practical of not, never seen it used for link control in xp parties.

Any opinion? Or is it not worthed to bother (just decline any party wihout RDM or BRD or COR)?

[Murphie]

Well, it's not ideal, and it won't be very good exp/hour, but it's certainly still doable. That said, having juice available will help a lot with MP issues. If you can level cooking a bit, you can certainly get to the point where you can make yourself Melon Juice at least.

What mobs are you fighting that BLMs can't sleep?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Acid Bolts do wonders for Defense Boost mobs. Sleep Bolts are OK on IT, but not quite as good as Lullaby, Light Shot or Sleep II. VT and lower sleep bolt effects are considerably better. Any good THF or RNG would have either at the ready in macro as those two bolt types, in addition to bloody bolts, are essential to any soloing they do.

A PLD without a Parade Gorget is like a RNG who doesn't camp Wyvernpoacher for O-Bow - they're passing up on an essential item. With Sanction Refresh you can have 2 MP a tick.

You can make orange juice with level 1 cooking. Juices (along with the occastional BST jug pet) can pretty much take you all the way to level 50 cooking. Very, very easy to level on Juice. I skilled it alongside my BLM until 40. And keep in mind that Juice effects WILL stack with Ballad and Evoker's Roll, but not RDM Refresh.

There shouldn't be a question of Dark Staff + /heal vs. any refresh or juice, you can use a combination of them all if you want to really be MP efficient.

Its funny that the best PLDs I PT with happen to be Taru. They don't forget their mage roots, they keep that dark staff, make the juice and do anything to keep that MP up, even working with a BRD or COR instead of against them.

PLD can do just fine without a refresh job to back them, its all a matter of you playing it to do so rather than relying on the ability of any of those jobs to cover you. And when you do have BRD or COR, it is important to work with him, not against them. I had a great Hume PLD recently in the new thickets camp. Never once did he move his back from the WHM, I got Evoker's Roll on him every time. Had a P Gorget too. It was beautiful.

[IfritnoItazura]

(Disclaimer: I'm a spoiled PLD with BRD and RDM in static party; everything I write here is from observation on other jobs watching MP-addicted PLD's or just pure guesses.)

MP recovery:
Given that PLD were able to function before the Auto-Refresh update, today's PLD with Parade Gorget + Sanction Refresh should do OK on MP, especially with Dark Staff ready to use between battles.

Your priority should be a Parade Gorget--it shouldn't be not that hard with a few friends to help out.

If I were to have no refresher but have a Parade Gorget, I would let my HP drop until just around second Provoke--then put in a big cure or two to secure the monster in place, and maintain my HP above 85% until 1/3 of the way into the battle. Then, leave most of the healing to the WHM and backup healers for the rest of the battle, and save MP outside of Flash. Make sure the WHM knows when and how much he is supposed to cure.

Damage Mitigation:
You need a WHM.

Most important is to make sure the WHM keeps up using Regen II or III. (Yes, it's obvious. No, not all WHM use their highest Regen on PLD--or even use any regen. Why? I've no idea.)

Next, is to set up a Flash order with the WHM; put a /tell <WHM> in your Flash macro, so your WHM knows when you've used it. Train him to follow it up 10-15 seconds later with another.

Keep an eye on the enfeebs as well; if you don't see something which should be used, send /tell's. Also, you probably have to resign to full-time Defender.

Shorten Battles:
Get good DD's. Targeting birds or other flying critters? Try to grab DRG's and THF's--even the ones not seeking. Know someone has gimped gear--don't invite out of pity. Don't have anything particularly strong against the mob? Set up skillchain, get BLM for MB. Every single BLM I've meet after Lv.40 loved to MB, and even most melees enjoy SC after they get used to it--you'll kill fast and have happy people.

You're an experienced player; put all that knowledge to use and set up a party which can kill stuff fast for you. ^_-

[Icemage]

Things you can do:

(1) Have a mage sub /BRD if at level 50/25+ for Mage's Ballad.

(2) Have any player who does not have a critical subjob to use /COR for Healer's Roll (+hMP).

(3) If you have a DRG in your party, ask if they have a /RDM subjob available as emergency backup healing. Yes, it hurts their damage output, but damage output doesn't mean anything if you're dead.

(4) If there is a Dark Knight in your party at a level high enough to use Parade Gorget, ask them if they have a /WHM subjob available. Again, a loss in damage, but healing is your absolute number one priority in a traditional party.


Icemage

[IfritnoItazura]

healing is your absolute number one priority in a traditional party.

Healer's bias. >_>

Making sure the party's healing potential is greater than the party's damage liability is essential, but you can achieve that either by increasing the healing potential, or by reducing the damage liablity--or both.

In my last PLD party in Boyada Tree against some very hard hitting Robber Crabs (yes, slight over-hunting), I managed to parry (far from capped) and evade (capped) in total 29% of all crabby attacks, thanks in large part to the liberal use of Flash between me and the WHM.

Imagine if we actually managed to stick Blind, Slow and Paralyze consistently...

Adding damage mitigation is equivalent to adding healing power, once you have enough base healing.


* * *

I left out the most important tip: Don't over-hunt!

[Icemage]

Healer bias has to be priority number one when you are lacking in support jobs. You can deal all the damage you want, but without the ability to maintain HP levels all the kill speed in the world won't save your XP chains when you don't have the HP left to continue fighting, and it won't save you when a monster decides to do WS + double attack + critical hit or other short burst high-damage scenario. Downtime from not killing things fast is infinitely preferable to downtime because someone got KO'd.


Icemage

[Murphie]

Agreed. Not that you shouldn't focus on your damage output as well, but honestly, you need to make the best of your back line, especially since you're missing a key job.

[Celeal]

Thanks for your input everyone ^^

I have a few question after reading the replies:

1. Parade Gorget. If there is Refresh/Ballard/Evoker's Roll, I have no issue with MP management, unless the DD is very gimp and the battle drags on for a long time. Can you imagine after I use a Defender at the beginning of the battle, and the same mob still alive after Defender wears off?

If there is no Refresh/Ballard/Evoker's Roll, eventually the healer need to Dark Staff + /heal in the middle of battle. From my observation/experience, since healer need to /heal and stop Curing during the battle for a length of time, my HP only remains above 85% for a very short period of time.

I like the idea of Parade Gorget + Flash cycle between PLD and WHM (if WHM is available in party). I never think about that before. However, is Hate going to be an issue? Does the WHM have time to /heal during the battle while keeping up Flash cycle, on top of curing, status removal (Erase, etc), buffs (Barspell, Haste)?

Note: Remember, party without RDM or BRD or COR.

I would like to know the details of timing, casting sequence, casting priority, tactic, etc, so that I can inform my WHM about Flash Cycle in the future. Or maybe we can post the detail on WHM forum too ^^

I will give Parade Gorget a try =)

2. Juice. Since it involves cooking, I would like to know the cost and its result for making juice in battle at my party level, like how often I need to pop juice, and how much inventory space is needed for material in 2 hours party? 3 hours party? How much time is involved for making a bottle of juice? Would the time of making juice in the field break the exp. chain?

Sorry for asking so much question for making juice in the field. I only seen one and only one PLD make juice in xp party at level 40 long time ago (before Auto-Refresh, before Shield adjustment...). Compare to the Tool Bags for Ninja Tools, errr... to me it is just not practical.

If making juice for my PLD cannot achieve the same or above the performance of my NIN tank (my NIN is at same level as my PLD at this moment), I would not skill up cooking.

P.S: How about Staff + Spirit Taker? If there is any successful stories for PLD using Staff + Spirit Taker as a remedy of party without RDM/BRD/COR, I would like to know the detail too ^^

[Sabaron]

Orange Juice is space-consumptive and not that useful for high-level PLD. If you're going to use a juice there are 3 that are good at that level:

Pineapple [3 slots per 12 pack, 48 minutes per 12-pack, 1mp/tick, 960mp]
Melon [3 slots per 12 pack, 27 minutes per 12-pack, 2mp/tick, 1080mp]
Yagudo [5 slots per 12 pack, 36 minutes per 12-pack, 2mp/tick, 1440mp]

Pineapple is 320mp/slot, Melon is 360mp/slot, Yagudo is only 120, so the king of conservation as far as inventory/mp is Melon. The only problem with it is that you'll be making a lot of them whereas your synthing with pineapple or yagudo is significantly less. I'm pretty firm on my stance that the best field-synthed juice is Pineapple. It's cheap, long-lasting, and is a good source of extra mp. It is not fast though, unfortunately. The Yagudo, if you have the space for it, will be significantly less of a headache than melon and it's also cheap depending on Dark crystal prices on your server. Of course, it requires Cooking 60 to make. Pineapple only requires 30, and Melon 40. I'll mention Grape [50] briefly because I have found it useful. If you have around 50-60mp (which a BRD of 15-24 will have going /WHM, you can refill your entire mp bar really cheap using grape juice without wasting any. I don't recall ever thinking of a use for Tomato Juice and Orange is a waste unless you're really low-level. You'll spend so much time making it that could've otherwise been spent sitting to get a tick of mp. Apple is ok if your skill is only 20, with a duration of 2.25 minutes it's just shy of a Yagudo with half the freshness. If you take cooking to 30 though, you'll seriously enjoy Pineapple Juice at just about any level. One synth every 4 minutes for 80mp is soo worth it.

[Slip]

For a 2 - 2.5 hr party I've found around 14-20 Yag drinks is enough to keep from getting into serious mp trouble. Usually I'll only need to pop 1 or 2 per chain.

I opt for Yag drinks because I pre-synth them. Synthing in the field just takes forever and with Gobbie Bag 6 done it's possible, though occasionally painful, to keep 20+ spaces free for them.

For synthing costs you're looking at:

Pineapple Juice:
Kazham Pineapple x 2 @ 51-66gil/ = 102-132
Water crystal x1 @ 100 gil
Total: 232 gil per juice x 20 = 4,640 gil per session (worst case synthed)
AH: 800-1,000 (on Pandy Jeuno AH today) x20 = 20k/session (worst case AH)

Melon Juice:
Watermelon x1 @ 180-220
Thundermelon x1 @ 292-357
Water crystal x 1 @ 100
Total: 657 gil per juice x 20 = 13,140 gil per session (worse case synthed)
AH: 990-1,000 (on Pandy Jeuno AH today) x20 = 20k/session (worst case AH)

Yagudo Drink
Yagudo Cherry x1 @ 39-48
Buburimu Grape x3 @ 180-220 each / 660
Dark crystal @ 200
Total: 908 gil per juice x 20 = 18,160 gil per session (worse case synthed)
AH: 2,000 (on Pandy Jeuno AH today) x20 = 40k/session

It seems like a lot of gil to be tossing away but consider how much 5x Tavnazian Tacos will run you for the same time.

[Celeal]

Thanks for your respond Sabaron ^^

I have a question with what time to make juice in exp. parties. At the process of making Juice, I am not going to /heal at that time. During the time for /heal, I cannot make juice at the same time. The only time I can /heal or make juice is between battles, but I cannot do both at the same time, or I don't have time to make one bottle of juice, then /heal afterwards (because timer for exp. chain is an issue).

It looks like Pineapple Juice (4 minutes per bottle) is very good. It gives me a chance to /heal + Dark Staff + a few hMP from tanking food when Juice effect is active. Just craft after the battle is over when Juice wears off.

How often does the synth break for Pineapple Juice at cooking skill 30? Does outdoor/weather have any effect?

Edit: Sorry to miss your post Slip, we post about the same time ^^; Is 14-20 Yag drinks enough for 2 - 2.5 hr party without any RDM/COR/BRD? I never have 14 ~ 20 free space in my inventory (w/ all Gobbie bags), unless I leave a lot of stuff behind in Mog House and place lot of stuff to Locker ^^;

[Armando]

Hate isn't an issue with Flash for WHMs. They shouldn't pull hate with it, and even if they do, 1) the mob will most likely miss, and 2) it'll most likely last more than enough for you to do something about it without having to panic or blow resources (JAs or MP) excessively.

As for the timing, Flash lasts somewhere between 12 and 13 seconds unresisted. Just tell them WHM to cast his/her Flash around 15 secs later, or if he prefers three (mob) attack rounds later. You could also set up a macro that sends him/her a short /tell along the lines of "Flash wore" in case he/she forgets about it, or it wears early. Although I don't speak from experience, I'd say the WHM should get enough time to rest, considering a two-Flash rotation is totally bad-ass as far as damage mitigation goes and you shouldn't need as much healing. (I've always wanted to be in a three-Flash rotation, It'd practically be blink tanking.)

Parade Gorget is kinda iffy at times but with a two-man Flash rotation and liberal use of Sentinel it should be working often enough. Make sure your healer knows that it triggers at HP>85%, though - it's not like it's critical, but it's still something that's useful to be aware of. In any case it's still something you should definetely have, and it's pretty easy to obtain. (Ah, if only all lesser NMs were popped and with 15-minutes-on-the-dot timers.)

On the matter of juices, I also consider Pineapple to be the most well-rounded juice - it may be slower than Melon but it's still more time-efficient/inventory-efficient and also costs less (you can buy 'em at Lower Jeuno for 400 G each if you have a lot of inventory space to start with.) How juices stack up against Dark Staff and resting depends a lot on whether or not you can use juices 24/7 and how much time the puller gives you to rest, but it's sort of a moot point; without a real Refresher, you can never have too much MP, so you should aim to take advantage of both things as much as possible.

It may be helpful to tell the puller to give you about 2 ticks of rest (30 secs) after the first mob, and 1 tick of rest after the second. It's been a while since I do a standard no-Refresh party but I believe you can also afford to squeeze in one tick of rest after the third mob (Chain 2, going for 3.) My numbers may be a little off, but basically the point is that there's plenty of room for making the chain on Chains 0, 1, and 2, so if your puller is keeping up a constantly quick pace it wouldn't hurt to politely ask him/her to give you some leeway in the early chains.

Finally, overhunting - this is, by far, your biggest enemy. Nothing else will screw you over as much. Every time you head out take a quick look at the EXP tables and the levels of the mobs you're fighting. Be very mindful of the difference between the party and mobs' average levels and be outspoken if you feel you need to aim for something slightly lower. You're really hard-pressed for MP (at least when compared to having a Refresher in the party), so you need to be proactive about this aspect; like I said, it's practically THE factor to take into account.

[Chveya]

How often does the synth break for Pineapple Juice at cooking skill 30? Does outdoor/weather have any effect?


In taking my PLD from 10-25, I've probably synthed a half-dozen or so stacks of Pineapple Juice. I started at cooking skill 29 (now at 30), and I would guess I had one synth break per stack of juice made, maybe less. I crafted the juice without regard to weather or direction I was facing- speed is what matters here.

I'm aware that exping 10-25 is much different than the lvls you are talking about (post-Refresh at the very least it seems). For what it's worth, though, I tried to make sure that I always had at least one juice synthed and ready in my inventory. I'd craft two juices if the puller was on a long pull, and if my MP was at a reasonable lvl to forgo resting.

[Lmnop]

First, I seem to remember lots of Paladins-of-old swapping to high dmg staves for Spirit Taker. I think the ideal method is probably something like using Staff on chain #0 or #1 (after having already done past chains, not the start of a party), then use Spirit Taker on chain #1 or #2 and swap to sword/shield. Earth Staff can keep up with Shield for Damage Reduction, but you're gonna want a lot of damage on that SW so... who knows.

About the juice comparisons...

Am I missing something? It looks like you guys are saying that Pineapple juice is better because it lasts longer, even though it actually gives less mp/juice. It seems to me that you could use Melon, get more mp in the long-run, and just be refresh-less more often. In 27 minutes, Melon recovers more mp than 48 minutes of Pineapple so... that's 21 minutes that you're not refreshed but you're not gonna be full on MP anyway.

Auto-Refresh + Sanction Refresh + Parade Gorget = oldschool 3/tic. I think if you had a stack of very cheap juice to pop every 3 chains or so, it'd make up the difference lost by not having PG active all the time. And I don't understand why every party doesn't line up flash orders. It's so incredible.

Too bad Parade Gorget's not WAR equipable... war/pld hitting 3/tic would power my Rune Chopper very nicely. :O Dark Knights could do it though.

[Sabaron]

Thanks for your respond Sabaron ^^

I have a question with what time to make juice in exp. parties.
How often does the synth break for Pineapple Juice at cooking skill 30? Does outdoor/weather have any effect?

I usually reserve about 10-15 slots of inventory for juicing at lower level. I haven't juiced at higher level as I am primarily a RDM and Juice/RDM Refresh are mutually exclusive (you may however use juice with BRD and COR refreshes). If you have say 3 slots reserved for reagents and 2 for juice, you can craft-ahead one juice and adjust speed. I try to have a few more slots than that and hope for someone to need a {Bio} or something at some point. The two rest ticks you lose making an 80mp juice is generally worth it. It becomes more valuable when the juice you make restores more MP (ex. Yagudo). For the break rate, I found I broke less than one per stack of crystals at cap level with most breaks occuring on Darksday and Lightningsday. Water weather is good for this synthesis, but lightning weather is bad. You can't really do anything about the moon so I don't mind it during field-synthesis--for that matter, you can't really do much about the weather or day either since they can last quite a while. Just ignore it and level your cooking to 60. Cooking to 60 costs nothing if done properly (and you can make a profit). It's also very quick and, by the end, you'll end up with several stacks of Mulsum to sell/use and some Yagudo Drinks as well. When you're doing Yagudo Drinks to 60 from Mulsum, you can just sit at the Jeuno AH and make them--they sell so fast on a weekend you'll have AH slots open by the time you finish the next batch. Cooking 60 is probably the most worthwhile craft in the game--here is a list of the best synth-yourself products from the list:

Fishing Baits
Juices (except Vampire)
Ginger Cookies
Jack-o'-Lantern
Boiled Crab
Mithkabobs
Coeurl Subs
Baked Apples
Carbonara & Vongole Rosso (Noodle Kneading required)
Pet Foods: Alpha, Gamma, Delta, Zeta

You can even try to make your own Snoll Gelato if it's too expensive on your server. I wouldn't go for Raw Fish as you can only make Tentacle Sushi with it, which while not bad, is really not optimal in most cases.

[EDIT: Add]
Yagudo Drinks are made with Dark Crystals which can be more pricey than Water crystals. On Asura, they frequently get to the same 1k per stack price and I buy them when they're really cheap and hold on a mule until I need them. Dark crystal synths are less fussy than Water crystal synths since they're only bad on Lightsday or during the hideously infrequent Light Weather--you would really only encounter this if you were XPing in Sky or the exceedingly rare Aurora Borealis on Qufim.

[Icemage]

At level 30, your break rate freezes at 5% for Pineapple Juice (the lowest it will ever be no matter how high your cooking skill gets - I still get a 5% break on low level cooking synths even on my level 98 cooking mule).


Icemage

[Slip]

Edit: Sorry to miss your post Slip, we post about the same time ^^; Is 14-20 Yag drinks enough for 2 - 2.5 hr party without any RDM/COR/BRD? I never have 14 ~ 20 free space in my inventory (w/ all Gobbie bags), unless I leave a lot of stuff behind in Mog House and place lot of stuff to Locker ^^;
14-20 is what I count on with no outside refresher (usually leaning more towards 20 or a bit higher to be on the safe side). I do have a Bard in my static though and the rare times when he gives me Ballad helps to reduce that number a bit. If your party is taking breaks at the end of the chain to let the mages rest that can be a good time to synth up some juices. In that case holding 4-6 drinks at a time should be fine, with replacement synthing each chain to make up for ones that are used.

Armando's point is an *excellent* one too - if you're overhunting you'll burn through mp much much faster than usual. If you dial it back a few notches in mob level you'll find you can get away with a much lower burn rate and still hold solid hate / not die horribly.

[IfritnoItazura]

I disagree with the idea that Pineapple juice is better than Melon Juice.

With Melon Juice, you simply use it at lower MP than Pineapple--if you're relying on full-time juice, it won't work out anyway. Yagudo drink may be better for PLD with high MP pool--basically, pop one only you're very low on MP.

So far, I like my idea of not over-hunting (which Armando explained better ^_^; ) and Icemage's idea of making people in the party using /BRD and /COR the best. They are simple and easy, and hard to screw up. No stress worrying about using time to craft or rest, either.

I still think that a party without BRD, COR, or RDM means the WHM becomes indispensables for the PLD tank--no one else can bring to the table the combination of buffs, debuffs, and curing efficiency. (Well, ... DRG/mage actually has top cure efficiency, but then you don't get the benefit of Parade Gorget.)

If you don't see BRD, COR, RDM, or WHM seeking, just go to bed instead of trying to force together a party.

[Murphie]

I know that I also preferred melon juice, but to be fair, I don't spend too much time thinking about the mathematics of these things. It seemed to give me the most bang for my buck, so I went with it. At that level, I'd probably make Yagudo drink though, since I have cooking more than high enough to do it.

[Armando]

It's not that Pineapple Juice is better than Melon Juice (note that I said "well-rounded.") Melon Juice gives the same total MP in less time. Given the fact that we cannot realistically carry enough juices to use non-stop in a normal EXP session (we can all agree on two hours nonstop being a pretty common length, right?) you will eventually have to make juices on the spot to keep going. Because Melon Juice gives the same quantity of MP in a smaller ammount of time, then you'd either have to: 1) use them less often to make them last as long as Pineapple juices, which implies going certain lengths of time without using one, which is annoying and distracting, or 2) use them twice as often, which means also making them twice as often and bringing twice as many materials. If Sabaron's numbers are right (too lazy to check but they certainly look right) then you'd need 6 inventory slots for every hour of partying you plan on doing when chugging Melon Juices nonstop. Pineapple Juice is cheaper and requires 3 slots per hour.

If you don't mind that stuff and can chug Melon Juices - or even better, Yagudo Drinks - nonstop, by all means, do so! Also, Itazura makes a very good point in that you can reach a good compromise by simply saving your Melon Juices for when your MP is low.

[IfritnoItazura]

Hmm. According to http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/food.php :

Pineapple Juice: 1 MP/tick, 80 MP total.
Melon Juice: 2 MP/tick, 90 MP total.
Yagudo Drink: 2 MP/tick, 120 MP total.

Besides the better total MP recovery, Melon and Yagudo drink beat out Pineapple for safety, with the higher rate of refresh.

Speaking of safety, can we make Celeal carry a stack or two of Mulsum (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Mulsum)? I don't think we've yet stressed his inventory space enough with all the juice bottles, ingredients, and extra gear...

[Celeal]

LOL, no wonder it is rare for PLD to carry juice or make juice in xp parties, so much trouble X_X.

I guess I will try to get Parade Gorget first and see how is it ^^;

(But hopefully in my future parties would have RDM or COR or BRD.... hehehe XD)

[Karinya]

Why not a hi-ether tank? They drop pretty often in Assault...

Seriously, though: the main thing I would suggest aside from not overhunting is that there should be at least two people in the party, other than you, who can heal when necessary. The secondary healer could be a SMN/WHM, a BLU, a BLM/WHM or even a DRK/WHM or another PLD (don't think of them as taking up a DD slot, think of them as taking up the slot the rdm/brd would normally take), but they need to
1. have some curing ability
2. be able to recognize when they need to take over from/help out the main healer
3. be willing to do so.

If it's just you, a WHM and four 0-mp damage dealers, it's going to be very difficult to make it work no matter what gear you have and whether or not you use juice.


Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like the second PLD idea, especially 50+. Two PLD get twice as much Auto-Refresh. If only one of you has a parade gorget, the one without it should be the main tank so the other gets his 2/tick all the time; in addition to alternating flashes (and Shield Bash if fighting goblins, mages, etc.) they can also voke or cover you if the situation gets hairy. The backup PLD doesn't need defense food because they can just activate Defender (or even Sentinel) when they have to tank, so they can use either a damage-boosting food, or use cookies and rest for the first few seconds of fights in addition to between fights, depending on how much damage you're taking. And you still have 3 dedicated DDs, like a normal party, in addition to the PLD's damage.

Theoretically, PLD/BRD with Vermilion Cloak+Parade Gorget gets 4 MP/tick without juice (assuming they keep themselves healed up), 5 with Sanction, while also giving you and the main healer 1 extra MP/tick, but I don't know if that would be worth giving up the emergency voke and some of their damage for (even assuming you can find a PLD with BRD sub leveled and a VC).

[Armando]

Now that you mention it, PLD + PLD + WHM would be really, really awesome. If you coordinate well enough you can keep Flash up practically 24/7 (Hasted Flash recast: 37 seconds; Flash duration: 12-13; three Flashes back-to-back = 36-39 seconds). You'd get hit so little it wouldn't be funny, and you'd have yet another person that can Cure and even take over tanking in emergencies. And a PLD equipped for DD'ing is nothing to laugh at, either (not stellar, but respectable.) Hell, if you could get a consistent three-man Flash cycle you'd probably be able to eat sushi and go DD yourself as well.

PLD/BRD sounds good, but I don't think you'd need to go that far; I assume that with three Flashers, one main healer, and a backup healer that can get a permanent 3 MP/tick in ToAU areas without even using juices you'd have enough damage avoidance/healing power to just go for the extra damage /WAR brings. If anything, maybe WHM/BRD so you don't lose out on so much?

As for Mulsum, how much do those go for these days?

[Sabaron]

I use all three depending upon my mana needs. Most of the time Pineapple or Melon is just fine, but Melon is significantly more expensive.

[Slip]

A stack of Mulsum is going for 15k on the Jeuno Ah on Pandy. That's a decent price given that synthing it would run you at least half that if not more and take 24 synths (which takes a while).

With the popularity of mono-job Burn parties for a while, has anyone tried out a "Flash Burn" party? 6x Pld or 5x Pld + Brd? It'd be so easy to overlap Flashes that way it'd be sad and who need shadows when the mobs can't hit in the first place? Each Pld might not be as good a DD as a War or Mnk but the party would have 6 decent DDs rather than 4 DDs + 2 support jobs.

[Armando]

Hm...I don't know, 15k for 120 MP...a bit expensive, don't you think? ^^; They're pretty good for being instant recovery but I think it's too expensive for long-term use. As for Flash Burns, I've been thinking about that for like two years now but I've yet to see someone bother to try D:

[Icemage]

At low levels, I prefer Pineapple Juice to Melon Juice. It's less messy, since if I do 2 partial breaks with Pineapple Juice (i.e. lose 1 pineapple each time) I still have enough materials to make another juice if I have a replacement water crystal. I only have a 50% chance of that happening with Melon Juice.

The faster refresh rate with Melon Juice is nice, but the logstics when you break a synth annoy me.


Icemage

[Slip]

Hm...I don't know, 15k for 120 MP...a bit expensive, don't you think? ^^; They're pretty good for being instant recovery but I think it's too expensive for long-term use. As for Flash Burns, I've been thinking about that for like two years now but I've yet to see someone bother to try D:
For regular party use? Oh hell yeah that's too expensive! Sorry got stuck in crafter mode there which goes "How much is it selling for and can I make a profit on it or not?" :biggrin:

[Celeal]

A stack of Mulsum is going for 15k on the Jeuno Ah on Pandy. That's a decent price given that synthing it would run you at least half that if not more and take 24 synths (which takes a while).

With the popularity of mono-job Burn parties for a while, has anyone tried out a "Flash Burn" party? 6x Pld or 5x Pld + Brd? It'd be so easy to overlap Flashes that way it'd be sad and who need shadows when the mobs can't hit in the first place? Each Pld might not be as good a DD as a War or Mnk but the party would have 6 decent DDs rather than 4 DDs + 2 support jobs.

/off topic

5 x PLD means:
Invincible x 5
Sentinel x 5
Rampart x 5
Cover x 5
Flash x 5
Shield Bash x 5
5 people can Cure's
5 people has Auto-Refresh

I imagine this party setup is safest XD

I am thinking about PLDx4 + BRDx2 and everyone in the party take out their sword and wack the mobs is cool too =P

I am also wondering would PLD/RDM as DD/support works? A+ sword skill + decent Enchaning magic with Enspell? Let say the sword deal around 40 dmg, and Enspell deals additional 8 dmg, which is 1/5 of the sword dmg already O.o;

[IfritnoItazura]

>_>; I want to see this... PLD x5 or x4 hacking away at mobs... heh.

It would be neat if at least a few people different support job, though.

/WHM = Curaga, Bar-ra spells. (Curaga is especially efficient if damage can be spread around.)
/WAR = Emergency provoke. Just in case... (What a party... no one minds being hit... o_O )
/BRD = More MP is good.
/RDM = At least one person should get to play with En-spell, right?
/THF = SATA on to PLD/RDM to actually make use of Phalanx and Stoneskin.

With the kind of Flash power this team provides, probably a periodic Curaga I will take care of 95% of the healing... People will be casting Banish for fun and use Holy to pull...

* * *

Come to think of it, why not just PLD/WAR x5 + someone/WHM? Everyone can be on Berserk full time, eat sushi or attack food, and keep the monsters on full-time Flash?

[Armando]

PLD/RDM could probably be really ridiculous with a Joyeuse. I mean, my en-spells are at 14 damage right now if I remember correctly and I'm 61 using a bastard-type weapon. And yeah, PLD/WAR x5 would be pretty bad-ass. Can you imagine PLD/NIN x5? How do you hit that? Hell, you could even have a Rampart cycle for AoEs.

Edit: Lol PLD/SAM x5 with Mercurial Swords. That'd be hillarious.

[Slip]

Tying this back to the main topic: I suppose recruiting 5x other Paladins *is* one answer to "what to do if no Rdm, Brd or Cor is available". Now with that off my conscience....

The Pld/Rdm seems like a dazzling idea. Survivability isn't an issue with 6x pld party. Anything that can TPK that group *deserves* it's paladin snackies.

No, the issue is can 6x Pld's output enough damage to sweep in xps at a good rate. My instinct says "yeah, that should totally be doable"...but...I've never been in one of the ZOMG level TP burn parties where they hit 20k/hr, so the definition of "good xp rate" may be open to discussion. As is what the xp/hr limits for a Pld party would be. 3k/hr? Hell yeah, very easy. 5k? 8k? 10k? 20k? No idea where the limit is (probably not 20k as a guess though).

If Enspells can add 14/swing at 61 though that should amp damage up nicely, not to mention the greater flexibility for things like dealing with links (6x sleep anyone?) or general debuffing.

Now to go get 37 levels on my Red Mage ^^

[Icemage]

I mean, my en-spells are at 14 damage right now if I remember correctly and I'm 61 using a bastard-type weapon.

Unfortunately, your Enspell damage will not improve much more.

Damage = 5 + (Enhancing Magic / 20)

At level 61, your Enhancing Magic caps at 184 as a Paladin (rank D Enhancing Magic). Since a level 75 Paladin has an Enhancing Magic cap of 210, you would expect the damage to be 15.5 (probably rounded down to 15, though I'm not sure about the rounding behavior of Enspell damage). At most you'll see an improvement of 2 points between 61 and 75, and very possible only one more point of damage per hit.


Icemage

[Celeal]

Consider endgame sword base damage range from 35 ~ 47 dmg, 15 additional damage from Enspell is really kick-butt. I am not into the math of FFXI, but I would guess than it take around STR+30 to add damage +15 per swing?

However, Enspell damage does not apply to WS.

Maybe a deck out PLD/RDM with DD gear is more useful than PLD/WAR or PLD/NIN in merit parties, for DD + support healing role.

[IfritnoItazura]

Would en-spell really beat out Double Attack, Berserk, Warcry, and Attack Bonus added together? I guess Magic Attack Bonus will help with some WS damages, but not the WS's most high level sword users would prefer.

Using /NIN would enable dual wielding Joyeuse off hand for fast TP building, and allow higher base damage sword in the main hand for better WS damage. Add to that the delay reduction from Dual Wield II, and it's likely even PLD/NIN can beat PLD/RDM.

I'd guess where PLD/RDM should shine would be against monsters which spam physical AoE attacks (like Weapons, maybe?). Stoneskine and Phalanx will make a PLD/RDM DD completely self sufficient, and allow him to assist the party's RDM/WHM with backup curing.

[Lmnop]

OT: Hercule's Ring? Isn't it's latent refresh triggered from being in orange? Having a macro to put it on would be extremely bothersome, but that provides you with another means of Refresh with the Parade. Big problem being that 50-80% range where most tanks realistically hover. I suppose it's prolly not worth it unless you happen to have a drg/mage for your healer and you're fighting Puks or something that lacks damage output.

I've heard many theories for PLD burn layouts, but there simply aren't enough non-turtling paladins out there (or so it'd seem). I'd like to see this start small. Say... brd rdm pld pld pld war. But even then, you're not likely to get a bard and a red mage to join your merit party with only one WAR. maybe brd whm pld pld war war. I think that's prolly the most balanced layout. Both PLDs would need at least a decent DD build, relying on your naturally high VIT and Defense as well as your Shield -- or Paladin-usemi as I like to call it. Of course, if you're all smart (GL getting 2 other people to cooperate) and can keep up the Flash rotation, that's obviously more Utsusemi-esque than neigh-constant shield block-age. At any rate, Damage output is key. Honestly, if you're going for a fast-killing party, do you really have time for tank food?

[Icemage]

Tank food is, from all observation, totally unnecessary in many burn parties. Since you usually aren't fighting anything over VT, it's easy for Paladins to hit the point of diminishing returns.

Still, there's no reason for multiple Paladins in an XP party. One is fine, though, even in TP burn setups.


Icemage

[Hankthetank]

A intelligently built DD paladin is an asset to any party. Especially the standard TP burns the FFXI community is so found of now.

The standard TP burn at this point is 2 mages and 4 melee. Due primarily to:

Shortage of Mages. At any given point there are at least 3xs as many Melee as mages.
Melee quality. Given the quality of the average melee seeking people mostly want 4 in order to kill fast enough to maintain a endless chain.
In this setup, the Mages are generally over taxed between hastes, cures, and pulling. Adding a Paladin as the fourth Melee is ideal since he can:

Deal respectable damage.
Has a self refreshable mana pool that can cover a good portion of the healing.
Flash to assist others in recasting shadows.
Cover people if stuff goes south.
Paladins actually makes a fantastic TP burn puller. Flash casts in well… a flash and between flash and shadows a paladin can easily pull mobs back to the party where a mage can sleep it without taking any damage and even if he does he can just cure himself. By you pulling to them to sleep they can get an extra tic or two of MP in every fight which is a huge help MP wise. (Invite a BLM. No one invites them anymore and I have yet to meet one who doesn’t want to party. Every BLM I know gets stuck soloing the majority of their merits)
Getting back on topic, note that neither of the two mages needs to be a refresher. I have had numerous combination of SMNs, BLMs, and WHMs as the two mages for my party. With any combination you can make solid XP. The only difference is without a BLM you may want to avoid pulling/fighting multiple mobs since you lack a dedicated sleeper. (A Smn can hold a extra mob if you pull two or pull before the party has finished killing the first mob. I had one party where I would pull when the current mob was at 40%, the SMN would then sic his avatar on the mob I pulled and hold it until we finished the first mob we where fighting. This is alternative to the sleep method for keeping a mob at camp at all times to keep the chains going.)

Drg/Whms are also an option. If you know a AFv2 helm Drg or two they can act as a main healer or in conjunction with a White Mage with only sanction refresh. In many XP camps like Mire, where Drgs can take advantage of their piercing bonus, this means even with /whm which hurts their overall damage DRGs are still excellent damage dealers. DD+Healer = Win.

Thfs, Drgs, Rangers all rip it up Lu Meadows. Even without refresh you can kill birds so fast it won’t matter. Just need to avoid Rams like the plague. HP down is a MP killer.

If you lack refresh, spread the healing over more people. Hybrid jobs that can heal AND DD are full of win. A Nobles Tunic Whm/Smn, Pld, Drg all getting sanction refresh = 8 MP a tic. The standard Rdm + Whm/Blm = 9 MP a tic. If people are willing to work together you don’t need refresh.

I assume everyone knows of Monk KTR parties right? Pld/Thf can refill his MP bar every 1 minute there with SA Spirit Taker. As a hume with 450 base MP that’s a lot of MP to throw around. Refresh is only 60MP a minute. As an added bonus Pld puts out excellent damage on Bones too.

Pots in Sky. Paladin has A- Staff skill. Capped Staff skill with a Kinkobo on Mobs weak to blunt = Fun. Spirit Taker will fill your MP entirely at 100TP meaning near limitless MP. Save TP to 300, unload a Full Swing and giggle like a school girl. My current record is 2600 damage. Aura Pots (that drop Ro Mo Water) con as T-VT. 2-3 Plds or 2 Plds and a WHM can chain these pots to 5 very easily closing chain with a T for 200+XP easily. I have done 4-5K an hour as Pld/Pld/Whm here farming water for the LS.

Refresh is awesome, but there is plenty you can do without refresh and without having to load your inventory with juice.

In regards to all Paladin parties or Paladin as a DD. Paladin can be a Top Tier damage dealer, there are just very few that put in that effort. 5 well geared Paladins and a bard can kill anything any other XP party can kill and they can do it just as quickly.

I personally adore my lolDDPld build and really think all career Paladins should start making one as soon as they can afford to. It makes recapping XP and meriting a joy instead of a chore, and as active Paladins I think we all tend to lose a lot of XP. I lose on average 10-15K in XP a week on my Paladin. If it wasn’t for the ability to recover those losses quickly and easily I think I would have quit using my Paladin by now.

Someone asked what the limit was on an all Pld party, I have done a number of 15K+ an hour parties as my Paladin where I was the top Damage Dealer so I don’t think there is any limit to what an all Paladin party is capable of. Once you reach the 10K+ an hour party level, its less about the DDs as it is about the pulling. To hit 10K an hour you are already killing at an adequate pace, to exceed that, it becomes a matter of getting mobs to your party fast enough. 9/10 times pulling is what is going to make or break your high XP/Chain party.

Pld/Rdm is excellent in a support role, but enspells are not enough to overcome the added damage output of /nin and /war. On T-VT sharks in sea my enspell does from 0-15 damage usually falling in the 8/9 range while my average hit is 40-60 damage. It can’t compare with Berserk and the 10% Double attack rate of /war (which is a 10% increase in TP gain and over all damage), nor the 15% delay reduction of /nin (which is 15% increase in overall damage) especially if you have a multi hit weapon or two.

Taken to an extreme a DD Paladin can out damage all but the pimpest of Damage dealers in a merit party situation. My parses have all been very encouraging and truth be told I love embarrassing bandwagon wars who think just by virtue of being warriors they are S/E’s gift to merit parties.

Does anyone who expressed interest in an all Paladin party happen to be from Titan Server?

Sincerely,
Hank

Off Topic is this Icemage the same Icemage from Marissa’s fishing forum?

[Lmnop]

Nice write-up. The only thing missing is how to convince people that your party will work. Indeed, the short commings of every troubled job lies more in the players than the devs.

I saw someone's Bazaar comment the other day. Aside from all the jp stuff that I couldn't understand, I saw something like "6x Paladin Merit Party Bhaflau Thickets Chain #16." Which I thought was pretty funny.

[Mouser]

The other thing to do is remember that Spirit Taker isn't a PLD-only skill. As long as you're fighting something without nasty AOE stuff (at merit levels, Trolls or Greater Colbri/Bugards come to mind), a job decently geared for DD can get back quite a bit of MP with Spirit Taker. I've support healed in both cases as DRG/mage (WHM or BLU usually and using a Kinkobo) in parties where we had no refresher, to carry the load when the WHM had to rest (and toss the occasional Divine Seal Curaga II + Super Jump, or use Retribution if I don't need to Spirit Taker). If you're daring and have a WHM geared for DD, they can do something similar. I've also seen a PLD with a Kraken club spam Moonlight and act as a mini-refresher.

For Dispel and crowd control, a BLU works fine, if the actually have INT gear. Blank Gaze is a single target light-based Dispel (mob must be facing the BLU) and very reliable. Geist Wall is an AOE dark-based Dispel centered on the BLU and seems to get resisted a bit. Frightening Roar is an AOE DEF down that overwrites DEF boosts, so is good vs Crawlers and Crabs. BLU also has 4 Sleep spells. Infrasonics can be used to counter an Evasion boost, buthas a long recast time. Pinecone Bomb (single target physical attack + sleep effect) is ok, but not very long duration. Sheep Song, Soporific, and Yawn are all AOE sleeps centered on the BLU, so dangerous to use in crowded areas, but can work. If the BLU goes BLU/BLM, they can ES their magical BLU spells. In a pinch, a WHM/RDM can Sleep and Dispel as well. Even a DRG/RDM can Dispel most mobs (Imps being a notable exception). DRKs can also Sleep of course, and can go DRK/RDM for Dispel.

Obviously if you have people than can Aspir, fighting mobs that that have MP can help (particularly DRK/mage). BLU gets MP Drainkiss which is not terribly reliable (unless magic bursting), but has the advantage of not being reflected by Colbri.