Low level parties and their reliance on PL's and lack of job knowledge

[Jarre]

Got a request from a Ls member to assist in korro tunnel after their PL had logged. Hes a veteran player whos recently started blu. Now granted I'm not your everyday Pl'er being a lvl 37 Galka pld, but suffice to say when i logged their had been no deaths.

I found it tough going, not becuase of a lower mp pool than a Pl'er is used to, i managed it quite well, it was the difficulty in being able to keep tabs on who to cure.

The party consisted of blm (no subjob), blm/rdm, blu/war (my Ls mate), war/mnk, cor/war and mnk/war. Notice no whm but thats not a problem. Party was lvl 17-19.

Firstly who was tank? I asked that question only to be told by a disgruntled blu/war that the elvan war/mnk was, says he is only to run away all the time if he gets hit hard, meaning emnity passed to the next person who hit it. Well he could have done a good job except he was lvl 18 wearing scale mail i.e. lvl 10 gear)
right lets go through the problems...

Blm- nukomatic, burns all his mp on offensive spells and wonders why he gets rasped and tageted.

blm/rdm- Nukomatic a few times, when he actually pays attention, has rdm sub with cure. refuses to use a couple of cures to help becuase "red mages don't cure!" (yeah right)

war/mnk - Provoke? not a chance don't even think he knew what it was. he also decided that while everyone (including the pler i.e. me) were resting he can take on a IT worm single handedly especially when there was a second next to it. I quickly stopped gaining mp, silenced the 2nd worm and started curing with what i had while my ls mate dashed in to help this trigger happy war kill the worm and take hate (he had to use healing breeze multiple times) The war then had the cheek to complain i silenced the other worm and when they kiled it exp was lame. I pointed out he was still alive and would be dead if i didn't. I was glad of my sentinel effect taking hate off him to keep him alive.

cor/war- asleep most of the time, didn't join in fights till enar the end, a total waste of space.

Not being biased by my vetren ls mate was the only person I knew I'd just have to check a few times and knew how a party worked.

On discussing this after he got lvl 20 and we both left the tunnels it was apparent that the 5 members were the same ls and had partied together from the strat with you guessed it a PL from 1-18. the cor/war bothered me as he should know the game as cor is a difficult job to get and it looks like he was just getting exp the easy way.

I have noticed a trend of these PL parties of people looking for the easy way to get exp quick, but in doing so it means they do not learn they jobs properly or how to bounce hate efficently and keep emnity off mages etc. these people will be people you wil end up partying with and will cause problems. The gunhoe lets attack (when people arn't ready) are getting on my nerves as wipped party = no exp, just cause a wars bored while the whm is getting well needed mp doesn't mean he should jeopodise the whole party.

This is my experience and i will certainly think again about PL'ing a low level party.

It seems more and more people in the game know nothing about their jobs and i have noticed this trend becoming more and more popular.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Murphie]

My thoughts are that this is nothing new. If you have a problem with folks who want to be power leveled, then you know, don't power level.

[Jarre]

It may be nothing new but i have noticed that people expect to be pl'd during early stages these days as if being in a party without one was wrong.

[Murphie]

Yes, that's the part that's nothing new. It's been like that for years.

[Aeolus]

If pl wernt a common thing in the dunes I dont think anyone would lv new jobs. The amount of complete morons outweighs the good players hugely in the dunes and tbh I just cant be bothered dealing with/trying to teach them about the game anymore because most are fucking wankers. So PL ftw in my opinion. Just dont end up in a LS with them. Guy in my dynamis shell, 75Mnk with purple belt and Str+1 ring from lv14.

[Raydeus]

Not to mention how silly it is for people to blame PLing for the inability of players who are new to a job to perform like a lvl 60 player in full AF.

It doesn't matter if people gets PL or not, you wont start seeing signs of job skill until at least lvl 30 or so.

There's a diference between people who needs to be babysitted by a PL and people who don't know how to do their jobs. Many players are guilty of the 1st even if their parties can do good without a PL they just feel safer with one.

And it also depends on the type of PL you are giving them.

But yeah this has been around since I started playing and way before that too.

[Ziero]

Plvls are never needed in this game. I always say that, always felt that(even when I was a newb) and always refuse to ask for one. New players *can* show skill at lower lvls if they're *taught* skill by higher ones. I learned how to play in the dunes cause higher lvl players taught me what to do, when to do it and why it's done. And I make sure to pass that knowledge on to other new players I meet.

The other day I was in a pt in qufim, Drk/war(me), Nin/war, Mnk/war, Mnk/war, Thf/Mnk, Rdm/whm. Notice a problem? Cause I didn't. I suggested we stick to T and VT mobs and chain the hell out of them and that's what we did, everyone gained 2 lvls and there were no deaths. Though towards the end of the pt we started getting to high fo crabs and had to move to more dangerous(i.e. Banshee infested) areas, so that took a chunk out of ou EXP. But without a Plvl we had no deaths and about 12000 exp gain total in under 2 hours with constant chains. And it's not the first time I've done that during low lvl pts without plvls.

I always felt Plvls hurt more then they help and will stand by that belief. If you can't take it with the 6 in your group, then it's not good exp. Find a different area and go to work. That seems to be something most people never learn.

[Auron517]

Not to mention how silly it is for people to blame PLing for the inability of players who are new to a job to perform like a lvl 60 player in full AF.
It doesn't matter if people gets PL or not, you wont start seeing signs of job skill until at least lvl 30 or so.


I disagree. I don't think it's a fact that people who object to powerlevelers want newer players to perform like a veteran, it's more of an issue of them doing their jobs correctly. I've seen PLs on my server extend from Valkurm Dunes all the way to Crawler's Nest. I wouldn't think any of us would want to group with a new player who had been rushed through the first 40 levels.

They've gained enough virtual experience to reach that high, but they haven't actually learned anything about the game. A great example of this, while leveling up a subjob in Garlaige and met some one who didn't even know what Signet was. Now you may not have that many job abilities or spells available at say, level 25, but there are still many skills to bring to the table.

A White Mage who has been powerleveled will not know how to heal, conserve their MP, use regen, or perform properly at all. Tanks won't know how to grab and maintain hate, DDs and Black Mages won't know a thing about hate management, and not to mention how to pull without linking or waiting for the mages MP.

Granted, these are just hypotheticals, but they are very practical situations. Powerleveling isn't going anywhere, but they can be harmful.

[Jei]

PL is such a common thing now especially with end game people having 3-4 accounts from quit friends or mule. Like myself, my main is 75 rdm, my GF is 75 blm and I have a new ninja mule. I 2 box when I play my low level jobs all the time using either my main or my gf's to be my personal PL.

When PTing with my LS or my known friends, we even build our PT with PL in mind. 4DD, 1tank, 1brd, something like that works really well and can get you through level 1 to 25 in a single day.

I avoid giving new players PL tho, but I still keep my other chars around just for raise.

[eticket109]

No offense Jarre, but by staying with the party, all you did is encourage the poor performance. I would have just told the ls mate to disband and solo. A blu/war can be a decent soloer in the early levels, especially with a pl.

[Jarre]

None taken, only reason he stayed and I stayed was the party exp on IT's was quicker than VT's solo (due to my mp pool) and we did try and teach some order, but unfortunately being told anything seemed to be resisted. We have noted their names down on a list I have of people not to party with. In speaking with my LS collegue he got into a good qufim party and the other 2 left and 2 went seeking in qufim after 2 hours leveling in qufim and 2 levels gained he saw them at the entrance still seeking.

[Icemage]

I think the whole job levelling system is coming apart at the seams now that many of the players have hit level 75 in the jobs they're most interested in. Used to be, there weren't many people who could PL because they were themselves still looking for XP. Now almost everyone has a level 75 job and at least a few levels in WHM, RDM, or PLD.

I will only do PLs for friends and LS members, and even then only if they are in truly desperate straits (i.e. stuck at level 30 DRK in the Jungles), and only as long as necessary.

---

Here's a quick tip from a dedicated WHM main. Learn it, love it, use it (I use this in complex HNM battles where it is vitally important that I know which person an enemy is currently aggressive towards):

/target <stnpc>
/assist <t>

This let's you target an enemy and automatically lock onto who ever it currently has hate on. No need to bounce around your targetting arrow. I use it for a lot of end-game activities, but I imagine it will work well if for some reason you are doing a PL.


Icemage

[eticket109]

Wow, in all this time I never thought about using /assist from the mob's perspective. Then again, I don't do the healing thing much.

[Jarre]

Thanks icemage a new macro to add to my list, never knew that one

[Skylar]

Last night l was passing through the Dunes when l noticed a /shout ''Please help , raises needed, bla ,bla ,bla x5. Yah.. x5. After raising them l asked what happen. Here it comes.... PL D/C Ftw!! l knew it..

They had 1 WHM and a back-up RDM/WHM and all were 17-19. The tank was a NIN/WAR. They were fighting Pugs.... and 5 of the 6 died because why?

Lesson?
Dont spoil the low level players to the point where they cannot perform w/o a PL help.

People who buy a 60$ game who want to rush through it as fats as possible just to be able to say ''Look mommy l got a lvl 75'' = :wtf:

[eticket109]

A 17-19 pt with a NIN tank shouldn't have any problem with pugs as long as they all aren't wearing level 10 gear.

[Skylar]

My point exactly....

Typo fix **fast

Yah l said fats* , what of it? :evil:

[Jarre]

Its just the sure mentality of people these days, yes you may say its nothing new, but is it on the increase? I think so.

When i was lvling pld through dunes about 3 months ago I told one of the guys to set HP at entrance. I was asked why, I pointed out death means a long walk if he doesn't (we wern't being pl'd), to which he relied "You use white magic, you can raise me" I pointed out to him I don't get that spell till lvl 50. He set HP. He was a war and the other people in the party were a mnk/war, a good whm/sum, thf/nin and Blm/whm with me as main tank, war wouldn't pull hate when we got a link, luckily thf/nin and mnk/war did and we bounced hate between the 3 of us and the party survived. I got 3 levels that night.

The following day I got invite into a party, it was a shambles I ended up doing auto disconect... i.e. pull out cable from router. I soloed till 15 and then headed to the tunnels.

[Murphie]

I don't honestly think it's any worse than it was a year or more ago. The days of not seeing a PL in Valkurm are long since gone.

[Necropolis]

Well when I level in the dunes I don't set my HP thier either. When i was new, sure I set it there, I didn't want to have to walk all the way form windy again to get back to the party.

But now I only level jobs when I don't have LS event's going on (Dynamis, Assaults, Salvage, HNMs etc). I find it a bigger inconvience to have to take my low level job from the dunes to Sandy or Bastock (can't even blood warp if set hp in selbina) change jobs to whm, teleport to mea, and ride the boat to aht urghan. I find it much easier to HP, get a tele-dem and walk to the dunes as opposed to going through all the hassle of getting back to where I want to be.

As far as power-leveling goes, I don't care about it. If I find someone that can't play (PLed or not) I don't play with them. If I don't enjoy the party, I inform them of so and try to find a replacement that would benifit thier setup. I now just power level myself with a friends account as opposed to stressing over crumy dunes parties. Depending on the job it may be faster or slower than a party set up, but I enjoy it more this way. I spend 0 hours looking for a party, no downtime for MP, and I get to keep everything that drops of value (Beastmen Seals and the such that I may use).

As a 75 whm do I PL? Rarely. If I'm bored I may sit in the dunes and help out a party from time to time, but I don't full time heal, I usually just handle links and cure if they are in dire staits. But I make it clear to them that I am not there to help them or anything like that, just bored out my mind and don't want to waste time looking for something I don't feel like doing anyway, and any benefit they receive from me being there is just a by-product of me amusing myself when I want to play but not do anything that requires much effort on my part.

Things I won't do as a whm.
1) get paid to PL - I won't waste my time in game to increase you standing in the game

2) be pressured into PLing you wether you are my friend or not. There is little difference between me being in a party exping on whm and me pling. If I'm going to be a cure-bot I would rather be earning exp/merits for my work.

3) be yelled at for death in a party. You chose not to have a dedicated healer for your pt. I can not be as efficient as I am in a party because I can't see your hp bars and must manuely target you, I can't cast regen, erase etc as these are party only spells. I can cast Raise, so don't worry as I can raise you from the dead and you all get a 5 minute breather.

4) be requested for certain spells. Okay you somehow made me PL you, no I wont haste your tank, or cast protect/shell 4 on you, or other things like that. It for one requires too much effort on my part, and secondly doesn't last long enough on lower level players to be of a benefit.

[dspeed]

Wow some of the stuff you guys said remind me of the party I was @ last night. Level 20 War/Mnk wearing lvl 10 equipment and a Moth Axe. Stayed in the party for about 20 minutes and the war lvl and he said he's going back to MH to get equipment. I just said to them that I had to go and left party. Chocobo back to Windy to do see what I needed to trade for more guild point instead.

I really don't understand some people. You're lvl 20 and you're wearing lvl 10 equipment. And he was supposed to back me up when my shadow are gone. How's he going to take a few hit in lvl 10 equipment. The equipment for the others weren't as great too.

I guess that's the only reason I solo my thief to 25 solo. And when I tell people that they say I'm BSing them.

[Satori]

I believe that power leveling is by far quick and helps alot if you really know what you are doing, but as from my own experience in the dunes, As a Whm myself your job is alot harder because the pler interferes with your cures. Whm players have to learn to analyze the party and what is going on and after a few rounds have set cycles in what we cast to ensure we know our mp and prepare for any emergencies. This skill as i see it gets handicapped as the Whm isnt experiencing the mechanics of the battle.

I myself only started to feel like a Whm in Quiffum, where there is less reliance on power levelling and i was able to do my job and learnt what my character is capable of.

[Skylar]

I agree 100% Satori. Happened to me. I hate playing Whm and having a PL. At one point l actually sat my char down... Honestly , I do not believe any of the other memebers even noticed.

[Mikihisa]

:huh: I was in that party killed in the Dunes...

Skylar, you helped us, thanks. But how would you know what killed us? ;)
You weren't there, so you can't say that. We were a bunch of newbies, indeed,
but we were doing fine.

We didn'r even asked you to PL us. So, in the end, i see the "kindfulness" (does that
word exist?) of that Veteran tarutaru.

If you have something to complain... then teach us. :wtf:

[DR2D2]

I have a little different take on the party concept. I soloed my rdm to lvl 30(so i feel i know somewhat how to perform in combat). My problem lies in the fact that too many pullers need better communications skills. I do not consider myself a great RDM, but im not a noob either(i know that my job is more to heal than to take hate). What ive seen since i started partying around a month ago is that 1 person will all of a sudden pull a vt or it, and not let anyone know they are doing this.-by the time the party can get ready to fight-we are either asleep or enfeebled to the point we are defensive in our fighting. Im not the best puller but will at least wait till everyone is ready before i will go out pulling(except when I accidentally do a Diaga-which is actually a funny site seeing about 5 bats and 3 leeches and 2 skeletons all attacking and killing me). I say this because in a way it seems like it is quicker getting exp solo then in a party.

[Saren]

This is on topic but kind of a rant so apologies in advance,

Trying to level blm yesterday from 16-20 in the Dunes was frustrating, I spent a lot of time in scary parties or sat on my butt waiting for the one party that didn’t have a tanking PL to invite me. I do get the PL thing and that with the right sort of PL they really are an asset to low level parties and have been very grateful for the couple of PLs I had yesterday that were ‘training wheels’ only and did almost nothing.

A few hours in, waiting for a group, a guy asked me to start a party with him, I asked if he was going to use a PL, he said no, I said woo yes please. Slowly we managed to get a find a full 6 people, pretty good composition by Dunes standards, we had a designated tank a whm and everything. We decided to fight goblins just outside the entrance to Selbina and just before we started a PL showed up. I am paraphrasing the conversation over party chat a little but it went something like this:

Me: I thought we weren’t having a PL?
PLs brother: He’s my bro
Me: But….he’s a PL
*pause*
PLs brother: He’s my bro
*pause for me twitching a couple of times*
Me: O.K I will find a replacement and stay till they arrive.
PLs brother: lolz now we have 2 PLs because of me, my other bro is here.

……yeah

I have to admit that my replacement and I got our wires crossed so I left before he arrived because I thought he had already arrived but I did at least try to have a replacement there for them before I went. Between fights while I was waiting for my replacement the PL started to send me tells.

He wanted to know why I didn’t want a free PL, the conversation with him and his attitude is what really got to me. He was ‘tolerant of the stupid, amusingly eccentric noob’ while he listened to me explain that I didn’t want a PL because this was only my second job, I didn’t have anything high level and I was trying to learn my side of hate management, get an idea of how much I can Nuke, practice my timing etc and that a PL who tanks gets in the way of that etc. Then he told me that a free PL is always good and that basically parties cannot cope without a PL until Kazaam and that I shouldn’t bother trying to learn anything about party dynamics until I got there.

I said that I had been in parties where we had managed totally fine without a PL at these levels, but he said that we couldn’t cope with links at this level and in a good party links are no problem. I didn’t bother to say anything after that, not worth the time trying to explain. So far, in parties I have had three links if I am remembering it right. The party got mostly wiped on two, lesson learnt: a good puller and a good camp is very important if you want to live. For the other link, which happened after this conversation with the PL, I cast bind on the second Damselfly (thankyou my friend Kai for reminding me of how great that spell is yesterday morning), it was luckily just out of attacking range on the tank and DDs when the spell hit and it lasted until the first one was almost dead.


I know the dunes is full of bad parties, I know it’s not the place where I am going to learn the most about managing hate, how parties work and which jobs go well together but I don’t think it’s been a waste of time for the most part and the PLs total dismissal of the first 15 (I think? assuming you start partying at level 10) levels of party playing was a bit…:shocked:

[Jarre]

The truth of the fact is, you learn by your msityakes, if you nuke to much and the mobs hate pushes on you, you know you've done it too much. The whole thing of partying without a PL is that you learn you job the hard way. It makes you a better player, rather than being "Babysat" by a Pl'er

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

People like to complain about low level EXP, but really, high level EXP isn't exactly Nirvana, either. We have people so bred on PLs that they can't function at high level or even consider how to build a PT around various jobs.

PLD, DRK or BLU in PT and no RDM? Yeah, that's a real winner, I'm sure BRDs and COR love you for that crap, after all, they're "refreshers." DRGs and THFs don't even set up hate on tanks anymore and they're two of the best jobs out there for doing that. Bludgeon is cute and all, but could we trouble you to enfeeble, dispel or support heal, Mr. BLU? .

I know of one person that has BRD, SMN, PLD, RDM at 75. Doesn't keep any of the staves or numerous instruments for any of them... this is stuff you need for those jobs. I can't even consider you a glorified back-up healer at that point. Now they're trying to shove WAR and THF into their roster of jobs. Will they do addtional subjobs? Probably not. Will they get all the gear needed for them? "Takes up too much space," that will be the excuse.

I know a BST who has been PLed for the majority of his CAREER. He sucks. Did assault with him, Excavation Duty. /WHM sub with no jug pet... and he died on the way in and cried because we didn't have WHM for R3. When he was up, he couldn't even land hits on a wall of rubble.

Then theres this NIN, I find joy in finding new ways to get him killed. Helped me on ZM6. Yeah, I know that's not nice since he's helping and all, but this guy doesn't research or think for shit, so I have fun with him. Told him the PLD was the Antican in the middle. No sword or shield on this Antican, no, that would be the one on the left. But dispite that visual cue, he followed what I said and ate an Eagle Eye Shot. Oops. :)

And don't get me started on the nimrods who take up a job just because some relic armor happened into their inventory in Dynamis.

Some people learn from mistakes and others never do, which is why we call the latter "noobs."

[Karinya]

I agree with your overall point, but how does DRG set up hate on tanks? Perhaps you're confusing them with DRK/THF (60+)? Somehow I don't think that TA Skewer is going to do much, especially since it's a multihit...

Maybe you mean a DRG and THF working together, since they can make good skillchains at any level from 34 on?

[eticket109]

I agree with your overall point, but how does DRG set up hate on tanks? Perhaps you're confusing them with DRK/THF (60+)? Somehow I don't think that TA Skewer is going to do much, especially since it's a multihit...


SATA + Wheeling Thrust however... ^^

[eticket109]

So... a sad little postscript to this thread.

I got a group of friends together and levelled PLD. It's at 16 and we had a range of 14-16 so we headed for the dunes. The place was packed but we still did ok. After a bit of time I suggested we move to Buburimi. We took the boat, found a camp and went at it. It was great. There were plenty of mobs, most of which were easy to handle, and there was no one else there except a couple farmers. I think we hit about 4-5k an hour without any pl or anything.

So, fast forward to last night. I wanted 20 so I went back to the dunes. I actually got an invite in Sandy and choco'ed out. They mentioned they had a pl but I didn't think anything of it. When I hit La Thiene, I got the invite and checked the party. It was PLD, THF, SAM, DRG, DRG and I think a MNK. The pl was a PLD. The THF was pulling in level 7 gear and hit red half the time by the time he got back. The SAM was the best geared next to me and he finally took over pulling after the THF's 4th near-death experience. After a while, the monk leaves and we get another DRG. This one shows up in full leather gear with a level 7 spear. I don't know, maybe he was afraid he'd get hate with a real weapon or something and get one shotted.

I was trying to give advice without being a total asshole but it just wasn't working for me. So, I just made subtle hints and snide comments throughout the party until we disbanded after a couple hours. I guess on some level part of me felt I should educate the two major gimps in the party (ie: as a 17 thf there is no reason to wear a Saintly Ring), but mostly I just wanted to get out of there.

[bikkebakke]

The only time I really disagree with PL's is when there is a new WHM in the party. Most of the time I get in a PT with a PL it's full of veterans who just want to get the heck out of the dunes or qufim. In the latter situation I am more than happy to accept the PL's help, but in a party with new players even though it would probably be alot slower and horrible exp I would rather there not be a PL so they can get the experience on proper party mechanics.

[dspeed]

I don't now why people like Dunes so much to lvl from 12-20 or whatever lvl people start going there. Isn't Buburimi the same as Dunes. I will much rather go to BP to level from 16-20 than Dunes

[eticket109]

I don't now why people like Dunes so much to lvl from 12-20 or whatever lvl people start going there. Isn't Buburimi the same as Dunes. I will much rather go to BP to level from 16-20 than Dunes

Its pretty difficult to get a pickup party together to go anywhere but the dunes. The only time I've exp'ed in Bubu was with an ls party.

[Vyuru]

The only time I've exp'ed in Bubu was with an ls party.


Same here, and then we died laughing when one of our LS mates came to PL use, ate some kind of white magey food that apperently gave him the plant killer effect since all the mandies were getting intimitaded by him :D

good times ^^

[Asir]

Sadly, there are far too many PLers in the game. I had played for two years and then attempted quitting by deleting my characters. I came back and started fresh. I soloed all my starter jobs to 10 to be ready for the dunes but I noticed something. I was the only lowbie out there leveling without a PLer tied to my hip. Somehow, in the two or three months I had attempted quitting, PLer became an essential piece of armor for the majority of lowbies.

Fast forward to my first day back in the dunes. Every party I ran past had a PLer and I was shortly invited to one. To quote Rikku, it was disasterrific. I was there as my subless WHM... Everyone needs a WHM, right? Right? How wrong I was. Before I had tried quitting, I had a 45 WHM so I knew what I was doing. However, a WHM isn't supposed to do any type of curing whatsoever in the dunes apparently. I actually got yelled at for curing. I never thought I'd see the day I would get yelled at for actually doing my job well. "The PLer will cure. You just nuke and enfeeble." I actually asked if they were mistaking me for the nukaholic BLM or Melee Only RDM we had in the party.

It took me 20 parties, but I eventually managed to get my subjob back. Out of those 20 parties, the only ones that ran smoothly with no deaths and fast levels were the 3 I had with no PLers. One of those PLed parties even told me I wasn't supposed to lot on my subjob items even though I was the only one in the party without a sub. Makes me long for BST once more.

[Neomage]

When I took all my previous jobs through dunes(THF, WHM, BLM, RDM) I equipped myself as best as possible and prided myself on using good equipment and keeping the party flowing. But after 4 rounds of seeing my attempts as a well-oiled EXPing machine shot into the ground by 1-5 morons using RSE or Swimsuits or that just can't play their jobs, when I take MNK, SAM, and WAR through dunes I am just going to grab decent gear( NQ Armor from NPC, lv 14 Rings, up-to-date weapons) instead of muleing everything around, and just pop a few Ambrosias my HNMLS gave me(because no-one wanted them) and just pummel my way to 20.

It's just not worth it anymore at those levels.