Theif vs Other jobs

[Akashimo]

Ok, in a possible fail adtemp to revive the thf threads lets bring back some age old disscussions. Some guide lines though: No flames, no trolling & bring plenty of experiance that relates to the topics ^^;
Areas of interest:
Has invites for you as a thf or seeing thf in exps dropped a lot or remained about the same?
Myself it usually takes about from 0 to 3 hours lfp depending on the day. Luckliy it has been shorter due to lack of invites to mire that i'd had to hit [No thanks.] to. While this may be the case, when I try to make a pty on whm, mnk or rdm, there are usually none lfp o.O
Has Ambushed done any noticable improvements for you during fights?
Only unlocked lvl 1 on the trait but it has improved some of my ACC a little using sushi as thf/war. But not by much.
Salvage Gear - How much improvement has it made for your SATAACws?
Finally, do you think some asspects of thief needs to be majorly improved to encourage invites outside of wanting us for TH?

[Jei]

Thf is not bad at all imo. I merit with Drk War War Thf once and was able to hit 140 chains.

The problem is people's preferences.

/sea all inv 75

thf
thf
war
thf

/p OMG WAR!!!
/invite war
/p got a war, let's wait for more war to pop.

[Akashimo]

Yea, so what can we do to change peoples prefrences or their outlook from lolthf to zomg thf?

[Murphie]

THF is fine. It's people that are the problem.

[Jei]

It would go under the same idea as how to fix the burning situation imo. Because war is just very easy and effective.

[Akashimo]

True, but it would be good to analyze each different job outlooks in the burn situation then summerize all the threads in a new one =3 Agreed that war is easy and effective, but its too good in that way that it over shadows most of what makes thf, thf.

[Jei]

first idea that comes to mind is that thf can do 2-3 times the damage with sata making them very powerful during the 30-50 level range. That damage is really good it's worth setting up the formation among other melee. Now, if SATA can still do 2-3x the damage compare to other jobs at 75, thf might still be desireable.

say, war mindlessly hit ramapge for 1k. Thf requires a lot more work and thinking but also do 1k SA dancing. Imagine if they do 3-4k with that instead? Maybe good, maybe overpower, I don'tk now.

[Wise Donkey]

I think what it comes down to is what I call "Party IQ". As Jei said, WAR requires average Party IQ - just Rampage for 1k repeatedly, maybe time a Skillchain. THF requires a much higher Party IQ, setting up for SATA to maximize damage. The Tank has to ride the hate line, positioning has to be correct, it requires you to pay attention. It is easier for Parties to not haev to worry about all things necessary for THF, when anothe DD job can do as much damage with minimal Party IQ.

Did that make sense?

[Zempten]

Actually the best way I can describe it is what a friend told me. A good/decent/top WAR you can pretty much just buy off the AH. A THF has to work his/her ass off to get gear that he/her can't just buy off the AH.

That's how I see it. I've seen threads and ss and parsers showing a REALLY well gear THF matching a decently equipped WAR.

As far as Ambush goes, I'm not too sure if it helped me or not. I've been thinking of taking it out and putting it into Aura Steal.

As far Salvage goes, I don't think it's going to even come close to the majority of the THF population. I mean from what I hear the drop rates are poor. So I don't see alot of THFs comming close to getting a full set. Perhaps a few, but not the majority which is where it counts. The best example I can think of is a THF with Mandau doing high WS and everyone in the PT going like "Damn", "Broken", "They can compete with WARs"...etc. This is only 1 THF, not the majority of the THFs.

I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I've been told repeatedly that Double Attack's default proc rate is higher then Triple Attack. I don't see why that is so. Sure, it means we get to SWING an extra 1 or 2 times (depend on DW or not), but I think a Dagger's base DMG and a Axe's base DMG is WAY WAY different.

Blau's Base DMG: 26 or 33 since Latent is always on pretty much.
Any Axe above lvl 50 (not counting Gerwitz's Axe) is ALL higher base DMG then 33

All I'm saying is I don't see why our Triple Atks default proc value can't be the same as a WARs. A few hits here and there surely makes up for the DMG different between types of weapons.

[Jei]

I think a lot of jobs can get pretty good gear off AH. War Mnk Nin are what I think really are. I haven't looked into too many thf gear tho.

[Kaickul]

What perceptions come down to (IMO) are this:

Bad THFs. People PT with a bad THF and presume all THFs must still suck.
Bad THFs being THFs who:
-/NIN to everything
-dont do their job well
-dont invest time/money into their job.
THF is a technical job where you do not just stand there and hit macros.
General ignorance. People think 'lolthf' because they assume thats what everyone does. Also as mentioned, some people are just a little brain dead and dont want to work with THFs.



G2 Merit Assessments:
Assassin's Charge - Most seem to really favor this one, but opinion has also seem divided in that the forced triple attack isnt that great with the extended timer.
Feint - Second to Assassin's Charge in value, some have choosen this for full upgrade over AS.
Aurora Steal - Also liked, but this skill depends greatly on what buffs the target uses and the success at stealing them.
Ambush - prolly the least favor, but by no means undervalued. Ambush is good if you are trying to work with meat builds but not able to get good ACC+ gear like Homam.


Skadi Gear you may not see for another 6+ months. Yeah, it takes a long time to get/upgrade from what I understand.

Overall I think THF is fine. Everything that was given/upgraded last year has been a huge improvement for THFs. Granted a lot of these changes only apply 68+, but that is fine considering our job became weak at 60+ anyway.

[711rocks]

I think what it comes down to is what I call "Party IQ". As Jei said, WAR requires average Party IQ - just Rampage for 1k repeatedly, maybe time a Skillchain. THF requires a much higher Party IQ, setting up for SATA to maximize damage. The Tank has to ride the hate line, positioning has to be correct, it requires you to pay attention. It is easier for Parties to not haev to worry about all things necessary for THF, when anothe DD job can do as much damage with minimal Party IQ.
Did that make sense?

I agree with this quite a bit, as it was displayed in my last 2 parties. (Both in CM)

Party #1 had Thf (me), Nin, Sam/War, and Sam/Thf as the melee.
The other melee all stayed in a goddamn line and we kept SATAing the nin for great damage/hate control. I was subbing war using Red Curry (it's how I roll son) and was putting up the highest numbers (SATADE doing 1500+ SATASB doing 1400+ depending on whether or not zerk was on.)

Party #2 had Thf (me, again /war with curry), a Nin, War, and a drg as the melee.
It's not hard for a war/nin to provoke for 7 seconds or w/e while I do sataws, his shadows will save his ass. This war refused too. ("I'll die, I take too much hate as is." BS his goddamn Rampages were all over the place [a couple 1000+ which was cool I guess, but often like 600 -_-] The drg didn't want to either, but why should he have to? This was an easy thing for the war who wouldn't take any damage with his utsu anyway.) So I resorted to using TA DE which does like generally 1000+ which is nice, but it could have easily been 500+ more if he just helped me out for a sec.

In other news berserk, att food, SATA get hit with amnesia from the imp and your ws doesn't go off but the crit hit is like 800 is entertaining.

Thf has a ton of potential, just work with us yo.

[Akashimo]

first idea that comes to mind is that thf can do 2-3 times the damage with sata making them very powerful during the 30-50 level range. That damage is really good it's worth setting up the formation among other melee. Now, if SATA can still do 2-3x the damage compare to other jobs at 75, thf might still be desireable.

say, war mindlessly hit ramapge for 1k. Thf requires a lot more work and thinking but also do 1k SA dancing. Imagine if they do 3-4k with that instead? Maybe good, maybe overpower, I don'tk now.
Idea sounds good, but what about when subbed? We've already seen how much sam, drk, mnk, drg and wars use /thf for a higher than thf dmg spike on average. That reason along takes away needing a thf in a party past 60. Now if it was thf main only for the bonus you describe, that will more than welcome for making thf update.
I think what it comes down to is what I call "Party IQ". As Jei said, WAR requires average Party IQ - just Rampage for 1k repeatedly, maybe time a Skillchain. THF requires a much higher Party IQ, setting up for SATA to maximize damage. The Tank has to ride the hate line, positioning has to be correct, it requires you to pay attention. It is easier for Parties to not haev to worry about all things necessary for THF, when anothe DD job can do as much damage with minimal Party IQ.

Did that make sense?
Yea, unfortantly it does all too well, alll too well.

I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I've been told repeatedly that Double Attack's default proc rate is higher then Triple Attack. I don't see why that is so. Sure, it means we get to SWING an extra 1 or 2 times (depend on DW or not), but I think a Dagger's base DMG and a Axe's base DMG is WAY WAY different.
I'd have to say thf/war does have more Double Attacks than Tripple Attack, though on a few rare occassions a series of Triple Attack followed by 2 Double Attacks did happen in Bibiki and Mammol Ja Staging Point.

I think a lot of jobs can get pretty good gear off AH. War Mnk Nin are what I think really are. I haven't looked into too many thf gear tho.
Its on the 50/50 area for thf gear imho. Some of the best daggers I've looked up online are rare/ex. Most are from CoP areas or from BCNM/KSNM.
Actual gear, aside from suppa (helps dding w/ sword), o-hat, swift, thf af, most is gained from AH unless you got the time for abjurbs for heca. But even with heca you still gotta pay for the cursed pieces unless you crafted them.

What perceptions come down to (IMO) are this:

Bad THFs. People PT with a bad THF and presume all THFs must still suck.
Bad THFs being THFs who:
-/NIN to everything
-dont do their job well
-dont invest time/money into their job.
THF is a technical job where you do not just stand there and hit macros.
General ignorance. People think 'lolthf' because they assume thats what everyone does. Also as mentioned, some people are just a little brain dead and dont want to work with THFs.



G2 Merit Assessments:
Assassin's Charge - Most seem to really favor this one, but opinion has also seem divided in that the forced triple attack isnt that great with the extended timer.
Feint - Second to Assassin's Charge in value, some have choosen this for full upgrade over AS.
Aurora Steal - Also liked, but this skill depends greatly on what buffs the target uses and the success at stealing them.
Ambush - prolly the least favor, but by no means undervalued. Ambush is good if you are trying to work with meat builds but not able to get good ACC+ gear like Homam.


Skadi Gear you may not see for another 6+ months. Yeah, it takes a long time to get/upgrade from what I understand.

Overall I think THF is fine. Everything that was given/upgraded last year has been a huge improvement for THFs. Granted a lot of these changes only apply 68+, but that is fine considering our job became weak at 60+ anyway.
Assassin's Charge is diffently one of my favorites when going in /war build just to amp up a vorpal blade or shark bite. Ambush like you said, great for meat builds. Though, I haven't taken the time to unlock the other two abilities. As for your statement with people and thfs, yea, totally agree, even encountered a few that made me embarissed to play the job sometimes. And the ones head strong on /nin obvious from what I read of them never bothered to try /war, /drg, /drk, /blu, /sam or /mnk.

So I resorted to using TA DE which does like generally 1000+ which is nice, but it could have easily been 500+ more if he just helped me out for a sec.

In other news berserk, att food, SATA get hit with amnesia from the imp and your ws doesn't go off but the crit hit is like 800 is entertaining.

Thf has a ton of potential, just work with us yo.
True, but there are some spikes in stats by races and gear setup that can affect that dmg along with party setup/buffs. And with the dependancy on JA w/ WS for thf, Amnesia hits the party hard espically if its at the moment to set hate. Had a few that did it the moment I got behind the tank.... which make me steer clear of that area at all possible times ^.^ ^^;

[Omniblast]

The first thing that caught my attention to this thread is the aparant mis-spelling of Thief. That is all.

[Lmnop]

THFs would be much better if they had a unique 50 cap quest: Unable to level to 51 until they successfully make an /equip macro. Actually, the FFXI population in general would be much better if that were required of all jobs.

Nerf Warrior.

[Akashimo]

The first thing that caught my attention to this thread is the aparant mis-spelling of Thief. That is all.
I phail at spelling ; ;
Any way i could correct it or a mod to change it? x.x didn't noticed til i got home, lol....

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

The only time I remembered having alot of trouble finding pts was pre-30. After that, it seemed any PT w/a NIN wanted me. lol

I only played THF to 60, but I remember my pts never being in the less than 4k range and I had a very good experience playing THF. I always wondered if THF could perfrom well in Merit PTs endgame or suffer from getting invites, but I remember pt wa friend of mine when I played as RDM and him hitting 1-1.3k w/Shark Bite due to DEX/AGL + STR gear and a Martial Knife. The Knife wasn't so hot for DE, but for SB it was priddy kewl.

Donno if other gears will alter this amount of DMG of if this is the pinnacle of THF dmg or not..... anyone care to enlighten? lol

[Spider-Dan]

THF doesn't need anything else. THF is a pretty high priority in parties that have a COR; NIN WAR THF COR BRD RDM is pretty much gangbusters.

Pre-60 THF sucks because you have to have intelligent party members. Post-60 THF is a lot better, because all they have to do is not be overtly stupid.

But that's not a fault of the job, per se.

BTW, base Double Attack rate is 10%, base Triple Attack rate is 5%.

P.S. Feint is overpowered (but in a fun way)

[Nitsuki]

honestly in the burn pts, i totally gave up in using SATAWS, its pointless, i just tell the whm or rdm to haste me and i'm good to go, i easily throw w/ yellow curry as thf/nin 1600~1900 on SA+DE, who knows how much it would be once i throw AC in, i dig the dmg i do w/ SA alone so w/e, maybe i'll try thf/war one day, we'll see what's up. ;p i'm still missing some end game gear so i'll prolly end up throwing nicer dmg on those flies w/e.

if you're in a burn pt, eff SATA, that's all i'll say, you'll have fun anyways, throw 5 merits in SA, and watch the fireworks go!

[Haggai]

The first thing that caught my attention to this thread is the aparant mis-spelling of Thief. That is all.
I find it funny when people misspell a word when they correct an apparent misspelling.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Sad truth is people develop a slavish loyalty to jobs that are hard to break. THF isn't alone in this, as DRG, PUP and BST are right there with them. For them, people filter out pet damage and only look at the players damage and judge them on that.

Being able to solo my EXP is fine by me, keeps me in the money, but getting PTs is somewhat difficult for others that may not want to go the solo route. There is the occasional burn PT and DRGs do fare better there, but when people see WAR/NIN they want that. They were the same way when RNG was the top DD - many who are so slavishly loyal to WAR now were scoffing them and calling WAR and even MNK "just subjobs" roughly over a year and half ago. Now they're levelling it.

THF can do well, all those jobs can do well. People are just stuck on their "standard" and "safe, fast and efficient" EXP even when other jobs can contribute well. I'm a COR and I pretty much have to show people I can be every bit as good as a BRD at my level in EXP/Merit because there are many who simply do not believe that. Some don't want me to pull, but when I start, the EXP doesn't stop. Even if I do get killed, I will keep the chains if I'm raised quickly.

We can adjust jobs til the cows come home. People may shift loyalties, but it will always boil down to "safe, fast and efficent EXP" and cookie-cutter party set-ups. And other jobs will be left out.

[Theyaden]

Pre level 30 thief was my hardest job to get an invite for. (Will beg, steal, exc for pt in that range of it). After level 30 there are 2 jobs I get invites for when not seeking. Whitemage and Thief. I took it to 46 with war as my sub and am taking a break from it to up ninja so I have the extra option in xp. Thief isn't broken in my opinion it's wonderful. Damage dealer+hate tool rolled into 1. With a pt willing to work with you you deal nice damage spikes and instead driving the tank and whm crazy your actually helping the tank staple hate. (Normally closing skillchain on the pull then have the tp for the next fight or one after in some pts). Note as I haven't taken thief to 46 my observations are normal xping without any notes on merit or even 50+ where I'm told things change a bit.

BTW I get a kick out of the way the survey is worded I have to agree it's broken and needs fixing, indicate it needs work, but isn't worth fixing, or answer that I don't care. Where's the choice I'm playing thief and loving it how it is?
1. Yes, please yes
2. No, thf will always be lolthf
3. Umm... no sides?

[Eauijhkuu]

I am personally battling this right now, hitting endgame after two long years of dealing with the ignominous ironic differences that come with how valuable a thief is to any endgame LS.

I have to admit though, I'm flattered to think that all I'm good for in Sky runs and Dynamis runs is to increase the likely hood that someone else's AF will drop. I'm a luck charm!

While SAMs sub my main and do massive damage that I am unable to keep up with at all, due the large restraints based on ACC and ATT. If I can't hit the mob, I don't TP. If I hit the mob but don't do any damage, I get no TP. So basically...wth am I doing? You're just there for TH.

It's almost as though we're stuck in a rutt; We want to be good, but we can't be good with the cards that we're dealt with. Or, in order for us to be good, requires us to unlock Pre-said Mandu or relic weapon, which most of us can't afford or spend the time and money acquiring because we have lives and other things to take care of rather than wasting 150 million gil for a chance to prove how awesome we really can become.

So yeah, when we hit for our 'tickles' and our 'lols', as my LS mates will claim, it's totally awesome that that defines what THF is all about.

I just honestly wish some other subjobs were acceptable to the table. But it seems THF/NIN is the way of life for most people. This isn't necessarily SE's fault either; Most people blame SE for the new areas being unfriendly to Nukers, when that is not totally the case. People just set a precedence that the only areas worth LVling in are all located in Caedavre Mire.

THF will probably always be at the low rung of the ladder just because it's always been, and will always continue to be, until we actually have our own exclusive gear that rivals that acquired from Sky runs that actually put us on a level to compete with other Melees.

[Konie]

This is my first post on this website and im gonna risk getting badly burned but...

I believe the main reason ppl think hey look a thf lfp lets wait for a war, is because allot of thfs really do not do justice to the job, a simple equip macro on your SA can boost your damage by 200+, using a haste build for tp (with acc gear and att gear as needed depending on mobs) can help you keep up with even a good equiped war/nin

i do not have homam, or hecatomb yet, and i will not say that my thf is by any means normal, i have farmed for countless weeks to get the millions i have spent on Haste gear, SA gear, Good Daggers (Blau + Misericorde+1) and all the money i have spent on food

but ina caedeavra mire party, i feel giddy evry time i get compliments on how ive changed someones opinion on thiefs, an average war/nin can do great in a tp burn, but a thf that stays on top of her game can show up all but the best war/nins and Mnk/Wars

i only have 4 merits, and no god gears or sea gears, but getting off my Ta and SA+WS evry chance i get i parse about 40% of dmg in my parties, and sometimes when we link ill solo the link (if the rdm can silence it first, -ga's = thiefs bane)

thief really is an IQ job anyone can spam rampage for 700-1k dmg, but a good thf can spam dancing edge for 600-800 on the same mobs or add sa and push that to 1100+, and sharkbite just eats Jnuns alive, my highest SATASB so far is 1788 and my highest SATADE is 1537, my highest SA + WS is DE for 1258 on an imp and i average 900-1.1k SA+DE on imps

even tho most parties dont support thfs endgame with a SATA partner or a SC Partner we spike dmg for some of the best dmg in the game, our DoT may be low but we offset that with faster attacks, a good war/nin can do 400-600 with a double attack on both attacks in one turn, a thf can do the same with both triple attacks i average 50-70 per hit in caedeavra, most wars seem to be around 110 per hit which is around my crit dmg

really thf doesnt need another boost for xp parties, i would really love to see a new JA that would help us on HNM tho, 0-8 dmg to gods in sky is pitifull and yea we do turn into just a good luck charm, maybe SE could give us a trait that gave us a damage boost against larger opponents, our job is to find and exploit the weak points, and against higher defence mobs we should be able to pierce the defences,

ok umm sorry for the rant ^^;;

~Konoko 75THF, 70COR, 42NIN, 37 RNG~
~~Diabolos Server~~

[Akashimo]

Hmm, maybe we should get a JA thats called Exploit Strike. Allows our next hit to ignore oppents Defenses, Shadows, Phalanx and Stoneskin. Works just like Assassin's Charge in the merit group <.< >.>; lol worth a shot?

[Konie]

maybe a trait that allows us to ignore a % of opponets defence past a certain point, like if def > certain # our strikes ignore a % based on how great the difference

also would be nice if SE would fix mug -.-;; turn it into an extra steal or somthing please!!!! its useless except ona few nms where u can steal a few K


and umm a Job Trait for PT Average IQ+10 would be nice >.>;;

[Hearshot]

the Poll needs a 4th selection for "Thief is great the way it is".

The addition of the merits has really made the job worthwhile as a main job at 75.

[Akashimo]

But thats once it get to 75, what about the struggle to get up there? I mean invites drop at 60, espically when theres a thf seeking and a dd/thf, most parties i had always goes for the dd/thf over thf no matter who it is(always different). Espically sam/thf, which is in my opinion a bit broken.

[711rocks]

How do invites drop @60? 60-70 was the only time on thf I leveled fast, did 10 big levels in like 3 weeks back in like August. (Haven't accomplished shit since then but w/e) DE puts up great numbers, esp for those levels. SB doing 1500 then 1500 Light is awesome, and at 68 you get harpes. The 60s pwn't.

[Akashimo]

Did you not read my statement on /thf? 60 is when DD jobs can use SATA subbed for more numbers than the average them. Even at my best at 75, I can barely get passed 1k. While a sam/thf or drg/thf can easily do that. Pre60, thf held control of SATAing. And 60's for me was the slowest time for invites.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Maybe if they made some kind of JA Trait where, say, the power of SATA was enhanced at LV60 by Thief.

Yes, there is Asassin, but I'm talking like... a damage modifier or bonus... that would suddenly make other meree jobs that sub thf still good, but thf not so much worthless.

Really, having SATA on a job after 60 is quintessentially like a WHM having RDM sub at LV 80 and casting Refresh.....

[Akashimo]

Maybe if they made some kind of JA Trait where, say, the power of SATA was enhanced at LV60 by Thief.
Yes, there is Asassin, but I'm talking like... a damage modifier or bonus... that would suddenly make other meree jobs that sub thf still good, but thf not so much worthless.
Really, having SATA on a job after 60 is quintessentially like a WHM having RDM sub at LV 80 and casting Refresh.....
That's what I'm hoping for, but with more of the lines, "close to worthless for other jobs doing this compared to the impossible power of thf " /end semi-sarcasism.
Note on the last statement, it'll be lvl 82 for refresh there =P and i doubt the rdms would take that soo nicely with their fast invites dropping over whm's having the trump card of rdm:evil:

[Eauijhkuu]

I wish there were some kind of exclusiveness to THF's performance. But it seems that even with the SA bonuses and the TA bonuses, and the job traits that we're still lacking; Just got through w/ a PT and two SAM/THF basically dominated hate control while tossing around damage that was in the 1.2K range at rates I couldn't keep up with.

It's slightly discouraging when other jobs can do the exact same thing as us pretty much. That's why we're completely overlooked in alot of aspects of things. Especially when it comes to parties.

[Akashimo]

It's slightly discouraging when other jobs can do the exact same thing as us pretty much. That's why we're completely overlooked in alot of aspects of things. Especially when it comes to parties.
Pretty much nail on the head on the point I'm trying to make with giving thf some boosts and/or making TA esclusive to Thief only.

[Sevv]

i think what really hurts thf to be honest in merit pts is that the most used camp are in the mire. This is no flame but a thf w/o sata is useless if you cant spike your damagthen its horrible now mix that fact with some of the 75 thfs on my server and ya thats why i say ill just pass on the thf.

now since nyzul isle came out i have used a few more thfs and they did great really help when you cant get sata blocked by amneisa (^.^) b

over all thf is solid th no matter how well they make it no one will be happy lol and if they over do it every one will be thf lol.

[Drive]

Maybe if they made some kind of JA Trait where, say, the power of SATA was enhanced at LV60 by Thief.
Yes, there is Asassin, but I'm talking like... a damage modifier or bonus... that would suddenly make other meree jobs that sub thf still good, but thf not so much worthless.
Really, having SATA on a job after 60 is quintessentially like a WHM having RDM sub at LV 80 and casting Refresh.....
Isn't the modifiers already Dex(SA) and Agi(TA)? You don't get the modifier while thief is subbed.

And the white mage would have to be 82 to cast refresh. Could sub Corsair though.

[Akashimo]

Isn't the modifiers already Dex(SA) and Agi(TA)? You don't get the modifier while thief is subbed.
That's not the point though. Other jobs can easily do more damage without having Dex/Agi modifiers that it doesn't matter for them when using SATA WS. An isnane sam can easily out do or match my best thf/war SATA Berserk Assassin's Charge Warcry Hide DE(forget atm current record), Evis(1566) or SB(1404*need to check when I log in at home*). That kind of damage comes only once every 15 mins. 5 min bursts are usually in the 900-1100 range, normal SA and/or TA ws falls around 300-800.

Note: My damage records only applies to mobs that are VT or higher and its the only damage I can accept for numbers to compare with.

DRG, SAM, DRK, WAR and MNK have far more consistent bursts on SATA that bests the 5 min bursts and can in extremem merit parties best/surpass the damage. Also to tie in with the SATA modifiers, thf also has to work with WS mods too. Dancing Edge is DEX(30%) and CHR(40%) with damage modifiers by tp of 1.1875 for 100%, 200% and 300%. Shark Bite is 50% DEX with dmg mods of 2 for 100%, 2.5 for 200% and 3 for 300%. Evisceration has a 30% DEX mod. DMG by tp is a solid 1 on the board.

Now compare that to the modifiers for:

SAM
Tachi Gekko/Kasha 75% STR, 1.5(100%TP), 2(200%) and 2.5(300%)

DRG
Wheeling Thrust 50% STR, 1.75(100%, 200%, 300%)
Impulse Drive 50% STR, 1(100%) 1.5(200%), 2.5(300%)

MNK
Asuran Fists STR10%, VIT10%, 1(!00%, 200%, 300%)
Dragon Kick STR50%, VIT50%, 2(100%), 2.5(200%), 3(300%)

Don't post yet, time is up for me to finish this post at school, gonna add DRK and WAR's after I get home.

[Drive]

Well I'm not going to look at your numbers because that is not why I posted. Someone said thief needed a SA and TA modifier but there already is one. Now if SE wants to make the modifier better it is up to them.

[Akashimo]

I'm just stating the numbers to compare the difference between this all. Most of the listed ws modifiers have higher tp based dmg modifiers and stat based modifies 50% or higher. SATA makes the ws that the dd/thf would miss normally guarentee that it'll hit for the one hit wonders. Multi hit ws all hits are maxed to land. Also, majority if not all of the DDs have an advantage due to being DD's need STR and ATK gear, which is the base of thier stats modifiers for ws.

[711rocks]

You guys need to ditch the sushi D:

[Akashimo]

I only use sushi when /war. /nin, /drg and sometimes /war, I use Roshi Jinpachi with Tonosama Riceball or Meat mithkabobs. <_<; not everyone can afford to use Curry. Also, 711, what's your base, dd and ws stats for atk, dex, agi, str and chr? w/o using food, and with what sub?

[Drive]

Multi hit ws all hits are maxed to land.
I thought Sneak Attack only promises the first hit to land(and crit) not all the hits after. I'm pretty sure of that.

[Akashimo]

I thought Sneak Attack only promises the first hit to land(and crit) not all the hits after. I'm pretty sure of that.
Unlike Sneak Attack, when used in conjunction with a weapon skill, this ability will enhance all hits of a multi-hit weapon skill. (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Trick_Attack) Had to double check myself on TA itself.

Edit: And here's my records on ws with thf, Dancing Edge 1404, Shark Bite 1291, Eviscretion 1566, Vorpal Blade 656

[Zempten]

Try Hedgehog Pie, it's pretty good. Nice ATK and it has +5 to accuracy along with other stats.

[Akashimo]

Try Hedgehog Pie, it's pretty good. Nice ATK and it has +5 to accuracy along with other stats.
I've considered that after going to a party on my monk char with it. Thing is, price.
Edit: @.@ just checked prices after reading, woot curry is in exp spending range :D 9k, sweet.

[711rocks]

Ya yellow curry is only like 10k tops. I'll look up the stats.

[Akashimo]

Ya yellow curry is only like 10k tops. I'll look up the stats.
Meh, already did, and tried it tonight in a merit party. Not of an impressive difference on ws dmg, just about 5-10 higher in dd damage though.

[711rocks]

As 74Thf/37War No merits or food, Mithra, only weapon (which is an lolmagnetknife):
Naked: Attack = 308
With TP Gear: Attack = 334
Acc = +60
With WS Gear: Attack = 352
STR = 62+14
DEX = 79+28
AGI = 73+14
CHR = 45 - 4 (yes minus)

With Berserk attack rose to 435
With Berserk and Warcry attack rose to 459

In xp pt, red curry brings base att with the TP gear to approx 410 (Can't remember, I think it adds 90 att?)

Throw in brds, smns, cors, and other jobs using Warcry for added fun.

[Zempten]

aw, it's a decent price for a 3 hr food. At least try it once ^ ^

[Akashimo]

As 74Thf/37War No merits or food, Mithra, only weapon (which is an lolmagnetknife):
Naked: Attack = 308
With TP Gear: Attack = 334
Acc = +60
With WS Gear: Attack = 352
STR = 62+14
DEX = 79+28
AGI = 73+14
CHR = 45 - 4 (yes minus)
With Berserk attack rose to 435
With Berserk and Warcry attack rose to 459
In xp pt, red curry brings base att with the TP gear to approx 410 (Can't remember, I think it adds 90 att?)
Throw in brds, smns, cors, and other jobs using Warcry for added fun.
kk, 75THF/WAR hume stats
w/o gear, atk 322
with gear, 354
ws gear 356
STR: 67+14
DEX 72+26
AGI 70+8
CHR 53-4
Berserk alone atk: 445
Berserk + warcry atk: 464
Interesting stat differences there are.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Well I'm not going to look at your numbers because that is not why I posted. Someone said thief needed a SA and TA modifier but there already is one. Now if SE wants to make the modifier better it is up to them.

Do you ever remember attending a training class for a job, where, the instructor informed you to read the directions carefully before taking a test?

Well, in my post I made it very clear what I said:

Maybe if they made some kind of JA Trait where, say, the power of SATA was enhanced at LV60 by Thief.

Yes, there is Asassin, but I'm talking like... a damage modifier or bonus... that would suddenly make other meree jobs that sub thf still good, but thf not so much worthless.

RtDC. :)

WHM80 was a typo. 82* It should have just been assumed that people knew what I was talking about. This is where arguing semantics becomes quite pointless.

[711rocks]

Meh, already did, and tried it tonight in a merit party. Not of an impressive difference on ws dmg, just about 5-10 higher in dd damage though.


Then I really don't know, our stats weren't too different. What was your sub? What other jobs were in the party? What were you fighting?

@72 I was in a pt vs greater colibri in a pt with a brd. I was /war using curry and didn't like my tp returns on DE so I was using SB for more consistency. I was using SA seperate and using TA SB on the tank for 1000-1100 basically every time. I got to do a SATASB for 1600 ^^ I had to leave though, and my friend in that pt told me that I was replaced by another thf. That thf was /nin using sushi+1, and has like 4 75 jobs + merits and was using DE for approx 600. ><

[Drive]

Do you ever remember attending a training class for a job, where, the instructor informed you to read the directions carefully before taking a test?
Well, in my post I made it very clear what I said:
Maybe if they made some kind of JA Trait where, say, the power of SATA was enhanced at LV60 by Thief.
Yes, there is Asassin, but I'm talking like... a damage modifier or bonus... that would suddenly make other meree jobs that sub thf still good, but thf not so much worthless.
RtDC. :)

This is no time to be mean silly, I was just saying that there are already modifiers with SATA that other jobs don't get the benefit from. Increasing the modifiers of SA and TA can help a ton, especially since they are both pretty high stats for thief. I would like it more that they got increased at their current level instead of just adding another one later.

[Akashimo]

This is no time to be mean silly, I was just saying that there are already modifiers with SATA that other jobs don't get the benefit from. Increasing the modifiers of SA and TA can help a ton, especially since they are both pretty high stats for thief. I would like it more that they got increased at their current level instead of just adding another one later.
Maybe a teir two of Assassin that uses both modifiers on TA, and when Assassin's Charge is used, adds chr in as a moddifer.

[Archain]

In terms of balancing work, I don't see THF as needing too much more if anything at all. It does a great job at spiking and stapling hate in the later levels, it's got a strong evasion tanking ability, and is able to solo and utilize unusual subjobs without losing it's strongpoints. Maxing out it's ability is something that I'm still working towards. There's always new gear coming out that makes you question what you're currently using.



There are two alterations I'd like to see, but I don't think THF does a lesser job without them.

I'd like a /ja that will spike the next attack's enmity by a certain value (Maybe +10 Enmity on next attack). It doesn't even have to be a /ja, it could be a meritable Cat #2 trait that links with TA (kinda like Aura Steal's link with Steal).

I'd like to see them actually adjust the 2HR to what was proposed as an idea at the fan festival. There weren't many applications where I could actually make PD useful, but it does have it's times. Clutch tanking, MG steup, and Charm Defense (1 (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/Charm%20defense%201of2.JPG) + 2 (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/Charm%20defense%202of2.JPG)) were some of it's limited uses.



This job is heavier than most melee jobs in it's need for focused equipment builds. In order to reach the same levels on this job, you have to go to slightly greater lengths to work with the party. Sometimes it works against the party if attention isn't distributed evenly among the DDs.

THF itself usually has a hard time getting an invite if forced to seek alone, it's just the nature of the job. The role THF provides in a party is usually one that can be performed by many other jobs making the selection pool larger.

I love the THF job's ability to use stats to maximize it's abilities, I love dagger as a weapon, and I love the weaponskills listed in the dagger tree. Many of the dagger WS are useful in one way or another (if not for skillchain properties, then for distanced magic AoE damage, bind, or MP Drains).

http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/WS%20List.JPG

The screenshots below are basically propeganda shots, know that these are more than likely shots against enemies that I've set up to gain an advantage against. Averages are usually several hundred less =). Some are weak against daggers (piercing), melee in general, BRD buffed, or utilizing an HNM only build with /DRK.

Mercy Stroke
Mercy Stroke - Sea Puk duo (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/8-Mandau/Sea%20Puk.JPG)
Mercy Stroke - Hilltroll Red Mage (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/8-Mandau/Hilltroll%20Red%20Mage.JPG)
Mercy Stroke - Hilltroll Paladin (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/8-Mandau/Hilltroll%20Paladin.JPG)
Mercy Stroke - Hilltroll Warrior (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/8-Mandau/Hilltroll%20Warrior.JPG)
Mercy Stroke - Hilltroll Monk (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/8-Mandau/Hilltroll%20Monk.JPG)
Mercy Stroke - Qutrub (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/8-Mandau/Qutrub.JPG)
Mercy Stroke - Bubbly (Ashu Talif #3) (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/8-Mandau/Bubbly%202.JPG)
Mercy Stroke - Cutthroat Kabsalah (Ashu Talif #3) (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/8-Mandau/Cutthroat%20Kabsalah.JPG)
Mercy Stroke - Nightmare Manticore (Dynamis Valkurm) (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/8-Mandau/Nightmare%20Manticore.JPG)

http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/8-Mandau/Archery%20WSNM.JPG



Evisceration
Evisceration - Tiamat (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/2-THF-DRK%20Experiment/Post%20patch%20-%20Tiamat%20EV2.JPG)
Evisceration - Jailer of Love (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/2-THF-DRK%20Experiment/JoL%20Evis%202.JPG)

http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/2-THF-DRK%20Experiment/Peryton%20-%20Evisceration.JPG



Dancing Edge
Dancing Edge - Spongilla Fly (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/Spongilla%20Fly%20-%20DE.JPG)
Dancing Edge - Ul'hpemde (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/6-Tests/Post%20patch%20-%20Ul'Hpemde.JPG)
Dancing Edge - Besieged (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/4-Misc/Besieged%20-%20Dancing%20Edge.JPG)



Shark Bite
Shark Bite - Tiamat (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/2-THF-DRK%20Experiment/Tiamat%204-digit%203.JPG)
Shark Bite - Baronial Bat (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/WSNM-Baronial%20Bat%20SB.JPG)
Shark Bite - Lesser Colibri (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/6-Tests/Post%20patch%20-%20Shark%20Bite.JPG) + BRD JACKED Shark Bite - Lesser Colibri (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/4-Misc/SBsig%20-%20Colibri.JPG)

http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/4-Misc/Hakutaku%20-%20Shark%20Bite.JPG

http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/4-Misc/Fafnir%20SB.JPG



Aura Steal
Aura Steal - Proteus (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/4-Misc/Aura%20Steal%20-%20Proteus.JPG)
Aura Steal - Apis (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/4-Misc/Aura%20Steal%20-%20Apis.JPG)
Aura Steal - Om'Yvora (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/6-Tests/Flour%20Steal.JPG)
Aura Steal - Jailer of Love (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/5-CoP/JoL%20Fluor%20Steal.JPG)

http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/4-Misc/Aura%20Steal%20-%20Bahamut.JPG

http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/4-Misc/Aura%20Steal%20error.JPG

http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/4-Misc/Aura%20Steal%20error%202.JPG



THF/WAR - Weaponskill Build (w/ stepping) (http://www.infieldpress.com/parser/8-Mandau/WS%20Setup%20-%20THF-WAR.JPG)

You can make a spot for yourself as a damage dealer in the endgame, but you have to find out which setup works for you and what you're able to actually obtain. I don't think that thief NEEDS anything, but I sure would welcome any changes that give us additional choices during a fight.

[eticket109]

Showoff.

On another note, they really need to fix Aura Steal's dialog.

[Archain]

Showoff.

On another note, they really need to fix Aura Steal's dialog.

They have fixed it, I'm using fairly old screenshots still, lol.

The Apis one has it how it looks now.

[Akashimo]

Thats what I call rich/heavy end game gear. Majority of it all I doubt the average person can get easily. Espically full hecatomb and mandau, homam or even using Bomb Core. Not exactly the build you'd see every thief doing.

[eticket109]

They have fixed it, I'm using fairly old screenshots still, lol.
The Apis one has it how it looks now.

They still just say 'uses Steal'. Would the extra word in there really break the game? >.>

[Kaickul]

Thats what I call rich/heavy end game gear. Majority of it all I doubt the average person can get easily. Espically full hecatomb and mandau, homam or even using Bomb Core. Not exactly the build you'd see every thief doing.

Archain has been a thief for a loooonnnng time. He's known across several boards. Not too many thief's have reached his level of equipment, including me with 4/5 heca and 4/5 homam. So yeah he does like to show off... but I cant say I really blame him.


And as a side note. Compared with the new Skadi gear... some pieces of Heca have lost their value. So in all truth... getting Homam and Skadi does not require standing around somewhere waiting for something to pop for 6 hours. You can get as good of gear from assault, limbus and salvage that only requires your long term dedication to those activities.

[Kensaki]

That poll is biased so wont vote.

And thf is fine, its people playing the job badly and people's preceptions of the job that needs fixing.

[Akashimo]

That poll is biased so wont vote.
And thf is fine, its people playing the job badly and people's preceptions of the job that needs fixing.
People can still play fine, but there is an unbalance when compared to other jobs. Take how insane sam/thf is. >_> They still can easy out do most dagger ws with out needing dex/agi modifiers cause theres none from /thf.
That and every other DD job using /thf >_>;
And nice necro posting =x

Also bit off topic>> you were in Fifth Element too? o.O

[Kensaki]

Off topic reply: Yeah a long time ago. That character is not retrivable now though. ; ; Forgot to update my char info.

Well it was on first page not really necro posting. Also this forum could use abit more life.:p

I can agree though other jobs get to much from sata compared to what thf does.

[eticket109]

What is up with all the necrobumps lately? lol

[Akashimo]

I smell a major fix thf be needing!!!! >_>; ls chat ftw?
and Chiya there is 65 sam @_@;;;
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/Akashimo/meeep_save_Thief.jpg

[711rocks]

thf burn pts may start growing in popularity
we're so fuckeedddddd
D:

[Akashimo]

Yeah ; ; Quick ITT, ideas to make thf less appealing subbed than main!


Edit: And I'll allow any necrobumps to keep this one alive, even if they're not necrobumps, long as there semi on topic @_@;

[Eauijhkuu]

Tell me you obviously saw this coming from the get go?

It was near evident the moment you noticed that DRK and SAM were getting yet another boost to their abilities. (They've benefitted from at least 3-4 of the past updates)

You won't be getting any invites to any kinds of PTs anytime soon. But that's okay, you should be very much used to that kind of bullcrap.

Why is it that jobs can do exactly what we do when they sub /THF, but we can't necessarily do what jobs do as /<job>?

And that, my friends, is the almighty kitsch biased wisdom of the great S-E.
It really does say alot about the designers' perspectives as far as main jobs and sub jobs go.

[Akashimo]

Finally someone else who gets it!