leveling a Two Handed weapon using warrior [Archive] - Final Fantasy XI :: Dreams in Vana'diel

Vyuru

01-12-2007, 11:53 AM

Once I have all my subs up and leveled, I was thinking that I wanted to level Warrior next. I also wanted to use two handed weapons, primarily Gaxe, so, I wanted to get people's opinions on how to best go about it.

General playstyle:

I like to play warrior a bit like ranger, spam the mob with Acid Bolts until a def down procs, then proceed to shoot Holy Bolts, using Acid and Bloody Bolts as needed. I normally only shoot once, maybe twice per Gaxe swing. While I do miss alot, my skill is fairly low for my level, so it will be getting better, plus it is bonus TP for me, which is very nice.

Subjob:

Contenders: Mnk, Nin, Sam, Thf

Monk looks like a pretty solid subjob, ideal for tanking, but I should not be in that position. I have also heard that Focus is not very strong, giving about +5 acc, so the ideal of alternating Focus and Agressor isn't that appealing to me. Even if the +acc was stronger, I can go with a samurai sub for Hasso and gain +haste and +str as well, so I don't think a monk subjob is that useful.

Ninja, the only real benefits I see for it deal with dual wielding one handed weapons and shadows, since I want to focus on two handed weapons I am not really considering this sub useful since it offers nothing but shadows for me.

Samurai looks interesting because I'm assured of gaining 100%tp very quickly. I could start a fight with a Break WS and then followup with the SC+MB while the Break effect was in place. Hasso may let me relax on +acc gear while using sushi, or it might let me eat meat dishes, either one looks promising. Third Eye lets me be a first provoker and dodge a hit, and it sounds like I might be able to do a little bit of tanking once I hit 70 and get Seigan.

Thief looks good for SA+WS. At level 60 I would gain access to TA, but when thf is subbed TA only transfers 1/3 of the hate generated for that hit correct? So as a hate transfer tool, it might not be that good, however SA+Gaxe WS deals some incredible damage. Toss in an acid bolt + SA +WS and that mob should be in a world of hurt, and I'll be in a world of hate too :P

Gear:

Pretty standard, I have to look over the list of Gaxe WS again, but I think they are all str/vit mods, so I plan on a +str/acc setup, and +vit gear for any slot that doesn't have a suitable str/att/acc piece.

Weapons:

Which two handed weapons should I focus on? Polearm will be capped from dragoon, should I level Gsword as well or just focus on Gaxe? Does it matter with subjob? I've heard that SATA+Gsword WS are normally powerful. It might just mean that I can use some weapons with one subjob and I can use another set of weapons with another sub.

General questions:

Does the def down from acid bolts stack with the effects from Armor Break? Or do they over write one another?

I'm thinking of going war/thf until level 50, if not 60, but in the level 50-60+ stage, which sub do you think would be the best, thf or sam?

Which job/s would you recommend to use as SC partners until I get Raging Rush/Steel Cyclone? Just skimming over the SC chart it looks like for a Distortion MB, I'd need to close it with Sturmwind, which isn't a problem but it does mean that if there is a thf in my party he can't do his lovely Viper Bite + SATA to close a SC, unless I have an extra melee or unless there is something I'm overlooking.

That's all I can think of for now, I'll probably think of another barrage of questions later, thanks in advance ^^

Skoal

01-12-2007, 12:08 PM

I would go war/mnk to 30. @ 30 you can stay /mnk or use /nin if tanking. If you are dd the I would suggest /th (SA+Sturmwind) or /drg. Later Levels (post 50) I would say use /nin or /sam.

Use GA if you want to use a 2 handed weapon. I would suggest keeping axes skilled up too.

War have D marksmanship so if you want to spam bolts then you may want to macro in some racc equip.

Icemage

01-12-2007, 12:36 PM

According to Apple Pie (LINK (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/ranger/46758-acid-bolt-dispel-2.html)):

Acid Bolts and Armor Break are both level 1 DEF Down effects and will overwrite one another (note: they also have the cool effect of cancelling the DEF up ability of crabs and most other enemies). Full Break will actually overwrite most DEF up abilities and prevent it from being re-applied since it outranks it (this is ESPECIALLY useful against Crawlers, who love to spam Cocoon).

Icemage

IfritnoItazura

01-12-2007, 12:58 PM

I hate to admit it, but /NIN can be useful for decently geared WAR's with Great Axe. I only have WAR to Lv.40, but the last 10 level or so party leaders mostly asked for /NIN over anything else.

It wasted my WAR's DD potential by not using /THF or /RNG which I had ready at the time, but /NIN did:

A) Let me get into parties.
B) Saved the mages a lot of MP in many parties.

I did not stack Berserk and Warcry. I didn't Sturmwind before second provoke. I did not boost randomly on /MNK unless I was tanking. Yet, most tanks had trouble keeping monsters off of me, /MNK, /THF, or /NIN. (That's every single NIN tank, btw, when they were almost the only tank available before the last two rounds of PLD updates.)

In many parties, /NIN really was the best choice, as much as I rather do more damage. With out a good tank and/or a THF, WAR/THF would have been a bad idea.

One thing I don't understand; how the heck are you landing acid bolts on WAR? :eek:

* * *

(Aside: Yes, Shield Break is wonderful. But, why bother when all the well geared DD's are using sushi, and gimped DD's with outdated weapons munch on meat mithkabobs? Sturmwind is too addictive anyway.)

Celeal

01-12-2007, 01:10 PM

Stumwind cannot close Distortion, because the Reveration(Water) slot has higher priority in the Skillchain Chart. However, WAR/THF SA + Stumwind close Fragmentation very well, can almost match SATA + Viper Bite or Raging Fists dmg until late lvl 40s.

As for landing Acid Bolt, or range attack in general, WAR is often asked to be puller in exp. parties. Use Acid Bolt at pulling can be an option. If you use gear swapping for range attack while pulling, you have to do it very quickly (to avoid link/aggro, or need to pull faster than other parties' pullers, etc).

However, I would go for Meat and Shield Break for DoT. Acid bolt does not have Double Attack, but melee weapon does.

For Shield Break and Weapon Break, at level 60+, I tried, but it did not work out for me. When I use meat and open battle with Shield Break at level 60+ parties, I still whiff a lot on those Puk. I don't have much acc+ gear, but I was wearing acc+ 38.... When I use sushi and Armor Break at lvl 60+, I cannot see the difference too. The sad thing is mob's buff like Cocoon, has the same tier as Armor Break: they can overwrite each other.

However, Pre-level 50, meat + Shield Break is very effective. Really hard to beat this combination.

After lvl 50 with dual Viking Axe + meat, and switch to sushi and 2x Axes, even I don't like to be forced into war/nin all the time, the DoT and Rampage plus shadows is just too good.... but I got burn out from it, retired my war and switched to nin/war T_T

Even I hate to admit it, G.Axe even with Raging Rush, when you have to use it as war/nin, have no match against DW II + 2x Axes ~(v.v)~

The best time for G.Axe in exp party is level 30 ~ 50, IMHO. It works fine with war/thf, war/mnk, war/nin at those levels.

Especially as lvl 30 ~ 50 WAR/THF: around level 40, Sneak Attack from a G.Axe alone can do 100+ dmg, while WS like Raging Axe, Power Slash, Tachi: Enpi, Piecing Arrow, etc just usually around 110~160 dmg at those levels.

However, I am not impressed with SA + Raging Rush. The damage of SAM/THF's SA + Tachi: Yukikaze more consistent, or DRK's Gullotine is more reckless IMHO.

Maybe WAR/SAM + G.Axe may work, but the ffxi community does not give it a chance.

As for war/mnk as DD in level 50+, I tried 3 times with Meat + Focus/Aggressor ... not bad for Axe or G.Axe, but not outstanding either.

Vyuru

01-12-2007, 02:00 PM

I hate to admit it, but /NIN can be useful for decently geared WAR's with Great Axe. I only have WAR to Lv.40, but the last 10 level or so party leaders mostly asked for /NIN over anything else.

Yeah I see what you're saying, the ability to avoid damage IS nice after all, but I also shouldn't gimp my damage output because some party leader thinks /nin is the endall sub.

Also, if they ask me to go as /nin then they want me to tank, most often I'm the only tank, and even with really good gear, I can't hold hate as well as I'd like, basically I have to resort to using Warcry to hold hate. Now that could be due to a variety of reasons, maybe I missed alot, maybe the blm is overnuking, maybe the whm is tossing out a cure III when I'm 5 hp down, just whatever, I have to use Warcry to get hate back, and that is on a 10:00 timer. If I'm gonna tank, it's going to be as war/mnk, and not war/nin unless I have some kind of backup.

One thing I don't understand; how the heck are you landing acid bolts on WAR?

First you have to be a mithra warrior, then wear nothing but subligar.... j/k :P I honestly don't know, I'd say maybe about 1/3 of my bolts actually hit, but my marksmanship is abysmally low, my warrior is about 39 and marksmanship is below 50 skill. While warrior might have a low marksmanship skill, I did have 2 level 50+ warriors in Cape Terrigan who used acid bolts on the crabs def+ moves, they had little to no +racc gear on yet they hit at least 50% of the time, although I think they might have been eating sushi, not 100% sure though. When you think about it that's alot of tp, and it's a pretty decent hit rate for a D rank weapon.

(Aside: Yes, Shield Break is wonderful. But, why bother when all the well geared DD's are using sushi, and gimped DD's with outdated weapons munch on meat mithkabobs? Sturmwind is too addictive anyway.)

I don't know if I would use Shield Break, kinda depends on the mob, but even with sushi some mobs can just get this lucky streak of misses in, sure there will be times when 2x Sturmwinds would be better, but I think there are also times when Armor/Weapon/Shield Break would outweigh the benefits of more damage dealt to the mob, especially once I get Full Break and I can do them all!

And as Celeal said, Shield Break would for sure allow me to use meat foods and I think this is the way to go. Maybe my tp gain will be high enough that I get the chance to do two WS on the mob and I can toss out a Sturmwind or something.

I don't have much acc+ gear, but I was wearing acc+ 38.... When I use sushi and Armor Break at lvl 60+, I cannot see the difference too.

Just a couple of things here.

1) If Armor Break is the same level as an Acid Bolt, you probably wouldn't see any difference if anyone was shooting acid bolts. i don't know about you, but I have a thf in 95% of all the parties I form, I'm just used to seeing how a mob takes damage while under def down, could that have something to do with why you don't see a difference?

2) Could it be that the Break WS was resisted?

Huh, interesting little tidbit on wikipedia:

Shield Break was once regarded as one of the greatest weapon skills in the game until a patch nerfed it a few years back. Instead of simply deducting 40 points from the mobs evasion it would deduct a percentage that never scaled down as it does now.
Retrieved from "http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Shield_Break"

You have to kind of wonder if that's yet another reason that many warriors don't use a two handed weapon such as Gaxe.

IfritnoItazura

01-12-2007, 02:36 PM

Yeah I see what you're saying, the ability to avoid damage IS nice after all, but I also shouldn't gimp my damage output because some party leader thinks /nin is the endall sub.

There were a few parties where it wasn't just "nice"--if I had gone as WAR/THF, I would have hurt the party due to the amount of healing I'd need, or choose to quit eating attack/accuracy food, or stop using or cancel Berserk and especially Warcry. Sneak Attack + Sturmwind would have been nearly unusable, except at end of battle.

Sounds stupid, but Utsusemi:Ichi allowed me to be more beneficial to some parties, especially those times after an usually big Sturmwind on WAR/NIN with Warcry, the tank voked, and... nothing happened... -_-; Monster would not face away from me... I would have had to gimp myself if I didn't have Utsusemi...

Also, if they ask me to go as /nin then they want me to tank, most often I'm the only tank, and even with really good gear, I can't hold hate as well as I'd like, basically I have to resort to using Warcry to hold hate. Now that could be due to a variety of reasons, maybe I missed alot, maybe the blm is overnuking, maybe the whm is tossing out a cure III when I'm 5 hp down, just whatever, I have to use Warcry to get hate back, and that is on a 10:00 timer. If I'm gonna tank, it's going to be as war/mnk, and not war/nin unless I have some kind of backup.

If there's anything more annoying than a bad tank, is to be asked to tank with the wrong support job. Happened to me once, when party leader didn't tell me he wanted me to tank and I arrived at camp as WAR/NIN at his insistence and asked "Umm... We don't have a tank!?" That's when I found out I was tanking.

I would have picked /MNK myself, if I had known.

(BTW, Warcry is on 5:00 timer.)

From my experience if a party leader asked for support job:

/MNK - Wants my WAR to main tank. Happened... once.
/NIN - Usually, just to save MP on cures. Sometimes, it's for dual or backup tanking, or pulling.
"I don't care" - Usually means there's a PL. Or two PL's. (Why a Lv.30+ party would need PL's, I don't know...)

First you have to be a mithra warrior, then wear nothing but subligar.... j/k :P I honestly don't know, I'd say maybe about 1/3 of my bolts actually hit, but my marksmanship is abysmally low, my warrior is about 39 and marksmanship is below 50 skill.

... I have capped marksmanship for WAR when leveling it from 30 to 40. I don't think I got near 33% accuracy. >_<; My character is Mithra, too... It ended up being a waste of time and gil shooting stuff, so I pulled with bronze bolts, and didn't bother with range attack during battles.

Jei

01-12-2007, 03:29 PM

riridilridilridilridilridilridilridildilridilridil ridilridilridilridil

err well that seems to be the only thing I can think for my war right now D:

I don't really mind any sub the warrior is using really. As long as they use melee jobs for their sub. I was using 1 hand axe with shield as war/mnk for 1-37 on my mule and I was doing very good.

Armando

01-12-2007, 04:50 PM

My attention is kinda scattered so I mostly had to skim over things and keep it short and sweet. If you want me to elaborate on my reasoning, just say so.

Shield Break, Shield Break, Shield Break. I don't want to sound pushy, but if you're not using it, you better have a very compelling reason (like a party willing to open Fragmentation for you to close with SA Sturmwind and at least one BLM to do a powerful MB with. But even then, I'd rather SA Shield Break it...) There is just no substitute for -40 Evasion! Just remember one thing: Not even -40 Evasion will overcome the ridiculous penalties that get applied to you when you overhunt. Don't let it go to your head!

Regarding Armor Break and Acid Bolts - they're the same (priority) level, they do not stack, but they are NOT the same. Acid Bolts are -12.5% Defense, Armor Break is -25% Defense. I did some testing in Ballista but all tests as to which overwrites which were fairly inconclusive. Seemed mostly random. Bottom line is that if someone's sticking Acid Bolts, don't bother with Armor Break. Either way it's usually a waste; Meat + Shield Break is better than Sushi + Armor Break, and Meat + Shield Break not only allows you to use Acid Bolts on top of that, but it also makes it a heck of a lot easier to stick 'em.

Regarding /NIN sub - don't think of it as the lazy DD's way of avoiding become an MP sink. Think of it as a way of saving the tank damage. 3 hits's worth of HP saved is very valuable (if you've ever levelled PLD, you should be completely enamored with Flash; having a WAR/NIN Provoke the mob and taking 3/6 hits for you is just as good.) /NIN can very well be a good sub if you use it to save your healer's MP proactively (deliberately turning/Provoking the mob when you have shadows up) as opposed to reactively (using it as a crutch and excuse to not have to worry much about grabbing hate.) Just throwing that out there; /THF and /RNG are also valid choices. Hell, you could even make an argument for /DRG.

As for main tanking, I would actually recommend /BLU if you have it. Oh, and while we're on the subject (since main tanking is related to /MNK and all) Focus is +20 Accuracy. Aggressor is +25.

IfritnoItazura

01-13-2007, 01:07 AM

Shield Break, Shield Break, Shield Break. I don't want to sound pushy, but if you're not using it, you better have a very compelling reason
My excuse is that the well geared DD's (especially JP players) tend to use sushi even at low levels, rendering Shield Break an overkill. Badly geared players and fools (like the thousands of WAR's who use sword and shield in Qufim) tend to eat meat mithkabob and still hit for low damage, so Shield Break won't help them much--a garden snails 40% faster than normal still isn't a rampaging juggernaut to be feared.

Shield Break is situational, like /NIN, and like anything else. (I did love Fragmentation SC with BLM MB'ing, though. SC + MB will always my preference on any job--but I'd do Shield Break if people are well geared and eating Rice Dumping. When and if that ever happnens, and should I ever play WAR in exp parties again, that is...)

Regarding /NIN sub - don't think of it as the lazy DD's way of avoiding become an MP sink. Think of it as a way of saving the tank damage. 3 hits's worth of HP saved is very valuable (if you've ever levelled PLD, you should be completely enamored with Flash; having a WAR/NIN Provoke the mob and taking 3/6 hits for you is just as good.) /NIN can very well be a good sub if you use it to save your healer's MP proactively (deliberately turning/Provoking the mob when you have shadows up) as opposed to reactively (using it as a crutch and excuse to not have to worry much about grabbing hate.)

Meh. Don't overestimate mage's ability to keep curing under level 40's; Ballad only goes so far, and COR's are rarer than BRD's.

Plus, if a WAR can do more damage with /NIN than another support job because it provides better safety when a s/he goes all out, one would need a very good excuse to not use it.

I was WAR/THF in a JP party at Behemoth's Dominion, and was getting battered badly every time I used Warcry, to the point that I largely quit using it. If I remember the parse results (didn't save it) correctly, the RNG/NIN did substantially more damage than me, but I took far more damage than anyone else, including the NIN tank.

If I have to cancel Berserk, or if I cannot launch a precharged SA (non-WS) at the beginning of the fight without worrying over whether I can use Warcry after second provoke, then /NIN is better than /THF--it's less of a gimp than cancelling Berserk, throwing up Defender, or holding off Warcry.

As for main tanking, I would actually recommend /BLU if you have it.
Not without Refresh, I suspect, making it Lv.41+ only, and only when a RDM is available.

* * *

To the OP, find a good friend, make him/her your static tank. Don't level without him/her--then, you can use always /THF. It's a lot more exciting (and more damage output) that way.

PLD recommended (Cover for Warcry, yay!), but NIN + THF would work, too.

Celeal

01-13-2007, 09:27 AM

Shield Break will help your Tank to keep hate.

At low ~ mid levels, Shield Break + Rice Drumpling should have about the same hit rate as sushi, but there isn't enough gear selection that gives attack bonus like attack food does.

For WAR/THF from level 30 ~ 50 using G.Axe + attack food, you don't need to use SA + Stumwind all the time, and you don't need to use WS immediately whenever your TP reach 100%. Open Shield Break at the beginning of battle to for DoT. Use SA + Stumwind or Warcry/Berserk + Stumwind to speed up the kill to get chain #5. Use SA + Shield Break when you need to make sure Shield Break is landed. Separate the use of SA and WS depends on situation.

For Warcry, I usually use it 10 or 20 seconds before Skillchain, or when me or other DD's TP almost reach 100% (like 80+ or 90+ TP). If you use WS immediately after Warcry, of cause the mob and your tank will hate you =P. Since Warcry last about 30 seconds, as long as you use WS within that time period, you will get the same bonus from it. Spread out the timing of Warcry and WS, and try to use WS toward the end of Warcry period. I rarely get hate this way.

Omgwtfbbqkitten

01-13-2007, 10:19 AM

Armando

01-13-2007, 01:34 PM

My excuse is that the well geared DD's (especially JP players) tend to use sushi even at low levels, rendering Shield Break an overkill. Badly geared players and fools (like the thousands of WAR's who use sword and shield in Qufim) tend to eat meat mithkabob and still hit for low damage, so Shield Break won't help them much--a garden snails 40% faster than normal still isn't a rampaging juggernaut to be feared.
Shield Break is situational, like /NIN, and like anything else. (I did love Fragmentation SC with BLM MB'ing, though. SC + MB will always my preference on any job--but I'd do Shield Break if people are well geared and eating Rice Dumping. When and if that ever happnens, and should I ever play WAR in exp parties again, that is...)Very good points...however, consider that the only difference between Shield Break and Sturmwind (and SA Shield Break and SA Sturmwind, for that matter) is a single hit, and sushi alone won't put anyone anywhere close to 95% accuracy (much less at the low levels, and much less without any meaningful accuracy equipment.) Inflicting -40 Evasion on the mob makes that gap very easy to cover and exceed, even if you only count your own damage. And if there's noone else to land Acid Bolts, then it becomes that much more valuable (and, ironically, the Acid Bolt is even more valuable if your other DDs are eating Sushi.)
I won't argue that everything is situational - you're very much right there. It's just that from my experience, there were more parties that could exploit Shield Break than those where I could do zomgwtfbbq damage with SA Sturmwind SC + MB. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of that too, just wish it were easier to get a good tank, a Fragmentation opener, and a BLM all together in pickup parties ^^;
eh. Don't overestimate mage's ability to keep curing under level 40's; Ballad only goes so far, and COR's are rarer than BRD's.
Plus, if a WAR can do more damage with /NIN than another support job because it provides better safety when a s/he goes all out, one would need a very good excuse to not use it.
I was WAR/THF in a JP party at Behemoth's Dominion, and was getting battered badly every time I used Warcry, to the point that I largely quit using it. If I remember the parse results (didn't save it) correctly, the RNG/NIN did substantially more damage than me, but I took far more damage than anyone else, including the NIN tank.
If I have to cancel Berserk, or if I cannot launch a precharged SA (non-WS) at the beginning of the fight without worrying over whether I can use Warcry after second provoke, then /NIN is better than /THF--it's less of a gimp than cancelling Berserk, throwing up Defender, or holding off Warcry.Don't you mean "don't underestimate?" In any case, yeah, you're right, /NIN can allow you to do more damage since the shadows cover for you. I just pointed that out because many (pickup) WAR/NINs don't pull hate that often, yet don't put their shadows to use anyways. If you're not pulling hate, you may as well Provoke the mob and save the healer/tank some MP. Sure, healers can do just fine pre-41 even without Ballad, but more MP is always better.
Warcry is better off not being used for damage in my opinion, though (just like Sentinel was better off not being used for damage reduction pre-patch.) The difference it makes in your damage is so small that you may as well save it as a hate tool for when Provoke alone isn't enough.Not without Refresh, I suspect, making it Lv.41+ only, and only when a RDM is available.Well, to be honest, I haven't gotten the chance to use it in EXP yet, but the MP requirements are quite low. The point of WAR/BLU (in my opinion) is to keep Cocoon up, eat meat, keep Berserk up as often as possible, and keep the mobs Shield Break'd 24/7. This would give you a tank that has excellent accuracy, excellent damage, and no defense issues at all (Cocoon + Berserk = +25% Defense,) something which no other sub can achieve. In fact, I'd say it's technically the only tank in the game that can have all three things at the same time without a BRD. Cocoon costs 10 MP and if I remember correctly, its duration is two minutes. Even if you don't rest, you'd only need 4 pineapple juices per hour to keep going, and that's certainly cheaper than Shihei. The only time you'd want a large ammount of MP is if you're in an "oh shit" situation, because Mighty Strikes brings your subbed Blue spells up to full (i.e. Blue Mage main) power.
To the OP, find a good friend, make him/her your static tank. Don't level without him/her--then, you can use always /THF. It's a lot more exciting (and more damage output) that way.Definetely some awesome advice. When I was levelling PLD I was static'ing with my girlfriend, who was WAR/THF at the time. It was spectacular.Guess I'll ask this here:

Has anyone really tried /SAM? I mean, really tried it extensively? I've seen mostly crutch arguments for /NIN elsewhere in such topics, but no real data that pertains to /SAM.
I could see it being very potent with Hasso, but that's Lv.25 SAM, isn't it?

Omgwtfbbqkitten

01-13-2007, 05:28 PM

Hasso is 25 and Seigan is 35, I'm just amazed that days after that SAM update and months later I've never seen one WAR/SAM out there and very little information about how it stacks up.

I can see the rather obvious benefits of it to WAR at 50 and especially at 60 with Meditate and 70 with Seigan. I've even PTed with SAMs who tanked using Seigan.

Vyuru

01-13-2007, 09:14 PM

/RNG are also valid choices

/rng has always intrigued me, especially since I like to spam bolts, but what does it have to offer besides Sharp Shot? I haven't researched it that much.

I was also wondering, if I SA+Shield Break for example, or another Break WS, will that make it land for it's full potential? Or can it still get resisted?

Shield Break looks good, but it is capped at -40 evasion. As you get higher in levels, the mobs that con IT will be even higher than before, is there a point where taking off 40 evasion from the mob just isn't as useful as it once was?

I'm not too concerned about using Warcry, I normally use it before the big SC+MP that will almost kill the mob goes off, so either the mob is dead or almost dead if/when I draw the hate.

The difference it makes in your damage is so small that you may as well save it as a hate tool for when Provoke alone isn't enough.

It does seem useful for other jobs that don't focus on +att food/gear, such as thfs. It always seems like their SATA+Viper Bite is higher when I use Warcry before they do their attack.

I think Warcry is a bit situational in it's use, I don't use it anywhere near as much as I use Berserk at any rate, it just draws too much hate even for a paladin tank.

The point of WAR/BLU (in my opinion) is to keep Cocoon up, eat meat, keep Berserk up as often as possible, and keep the mobs Shield Break'd 24/7.

Don't the stun spells from blu stand a decent chance of still being effective as well? You might be able to stun some of the mob's tp moves if so letting you avoid even more damage, for a time since even while stunned the mob retains it's tp.

I could see it being very potent with Hasso, but that's Lv.25 SAM, isn't it?

It is, part of the problem I'm having is trying to figure out which would be better at about level 60, and through the 50 range as well. War/thf offers good WS damage, but if my primary WS is Shield Break, that may not be as much of an issue. War/sam offers faster tp gain, and is more helpful to your DoT, which I think would be better if your primary WS is Shield Break.

Armando

01-13-2007, 10:09 PM

Hasso is 25 and Seigan is 35, I'm just amazed that days after that SAM update and months later I've never seen one WAR/SAM out there and very little information about how it stacks up.Yeah, I know. It's pretty sad >.> But hey, most peoples are stupid D:/rng has always intrigued me, especially since I like to spam bolts, but what does it have to offer besides Sharp Shot? I haven't researched it that much.Mainly Accuracy Bonus (Accuracy/Ranged Accuracy +10), Widescan for pulling, Camouflage (lawl), and access to ranged WS.I was also wondering, if I SA+Shield Break for example, or another Break WS, will that make it land for it's full potential? Or can it still get resisted?

Shield Break looks good, but it is capped at -40 evasion. As you get higher in levels, the mobs that con IT will be even higher than before, is there a point where taking off 40 evasion from the mob just isn't as useful as it once was?Nah, it can still get resisted, but you can put out some pretty decent numbers (150-200) and it won't miss. It can also close a pretty decent Fusion. Anyways, wether or not -40 evasion is worth less the higher you go is a pretty tough question to answer, as nobody even knows of the Acc/Eva comparison is percentage or difference-based (the /check system would suggest that it's difference-based...) But, in any case, I doubt there ever comes a point where -40 Evasion stops being very useful, unless you're killing mobs in 30-45 seconds or something.
Don't the stun spells from blu stand a decent chance of still being effective as well? You might be able to stun some of the mob's tp moves if so letting you avoid even more damage, for a time since even while stunned the mob retains it's tp.Their proc rate isn't too hot on ITs, and the only thing you can actually stun is Bomb Toss and Smite/Whirl of Rage anyways ^^;It is, part of the problem I'm having is trying to figure out which would be better at about level 60, and through the 50 range as well. War/thf offers good WS damage, but if my primary WS is Shield Break, that may not be as much of an issue. War/sam offers faster tp gain, and is more helpful to your DoT, which I think would be better if your primary WS is Shield Break.Yeah, I'd consider WAR/SAM to be better than /THF at 50 unless they're relying on you to close a skillchain for big damage.

Celeal

01-14-2007, 12:25 PM

As for Shield Break after level 60+ from my experience, I get better acc. from sushi then the evasion down from Shield Break. I don't have parser to prove it, but I actively switch between Axe + G.Axe, sushi and attack food when I level up WAR to level 60+, and that is the result I got.

For WAR/SAM, I am wondering how would Axe + Shield hold up. Before I retired my WAR, I take the pride that I had cap both my G.Axe and Axe. Because both Axe and G.Axe can have different Skillchain option, and Break WS from G.Axe, I think it is good to have both weapons capped.

Not only war/nin has DW to reduce weapon delay, but when they use WS with 2 axes, the off-hand weapon adds an extra hit to the WS too.

For damage migration, war/nin has shadows since level 24, while war/sam has Third Eye until level 70 Seigan. Without Seigan, the usefulness of Third Eye is very limited.

To be honest, how many WAR out there have SAM sub leveled? In the old days the war community encouraged players to have /mnk, /thf, /nin ready, cap both G.Axe + Axe. Subjob like /sam, /rng, /rng were consider situational or optional. With the bandwagon with "war/nin and dual axe only, tanking no thx, too lazy to level subjobs and not bother to cap G.Axe," I doubt current WAR population is ready for WAR/SAM.

If the WAR population does not promote WAR/SAM, I don't think the non-WAR players in the party would even bother with WAR/SAM.

sigraph

01-15-2007, 01:34 AM

Guess I'll ask this here:
Has anyone really tried /SAM? I mean, really tried it extensively? I've seen mostly crutch arguments for /NIN elsewhere in such topics, but no real data that pertains to /SAM.

that is what i really want to try too...go LFP for a few times as war/sam... you got the idea, inv come... {Ninja} {sub} {please}. I guess if you want to use this sub that only in friend party. And it cause problems too, in thicket mamools' ws and skoffin's TP ability can kill you espec if zerk is up, but it can work in mire on imp/flys/ect and in tree camp with pld tank I guess.

but as far as my little testing goes its and awsome fun sub, tried it some coffer/skillup/besieged party, you just spam ws non stop :)

hasso/rune chopper can be fun, i'm saving up for martial b. atm, cant wait to see how it goes with /sam.

LyonheartLakshmi

01-15-2007, 07:47 AM

We all know how flaky pick up parties can be. You never know when the PLD might decide to leave, and the only players seeking are some random melee DDs. Even after level 30 (when /THF gives you SA) and before level 48~50 (when /NIN can really start to shine, even without a 2nd blink tank to bounce hate with), /MNK can still be a nifty choice for filling a DD role. Why? Because you never know when you might be called upon to take over solo tanking duties. This would be especially true if your pick-up party is heading toward some far-away camp, where it would be time consuming for you to HP, change subs, and get back to camp.

However, if you happen to be in a static, then that's probably not an issue.

Lmnop

01-15-2007, 01:37 PM

keep your axe leveled. Even if you want to adhere to GA, you'll want those axes.

you're already 30 war, I assume. /drg and /rng are at their unarguable high levels 20-30. Post 30, both can be viable, both require some work to make them so. /drg moreso. /rng has a lot of potential that just gets better when you add in a THF. The ability to use GA for damage and open Distortion for Thieves via Piercing Arrow is quite nice. You would want to try to cap your Marksmanship for this and carry an equip swap of as much R.acc and AGI as you can get your hands on (this isn't much for WAR). Level 40 gets you 10 in hands/feet though. That's nice.

But then... I hit with my acid bolts 30-60% of the time as Elvaan THF, CAPPED C rank Marksmanship with every +R.acc piece of gear in the game, barring P Charm. Oh, and those slots were min-maxed so that if I wasn't getting loads of +R.acc, it was giving the biggest AGI payload available. Still not much improvement in hit rate. :/ I guess that was in the lowpoint of the RNG nerf though. Before they eased their uber-nerf.

Anywho... /thf is definately incredible 30-50. /mnk is also very nice those levels (if you feel like tanking) and we've argued to death what /nin offers. It's definately a sub you'll want ready. And it'll see more use than /mnk.

50+ is interesting though. First off, war/thf SA Sturmwind will still compete with DW2 Dual Viking War/nin 50-55. You may have to equip yourself right (I macro'd in rediculous +STR gears >.>) but it pays off. You hit hard enough to keep up with any war/nin. One of my favorite parties in the 50-55 range was me as war/nin using Smash Axe to open for a war/thf's SA Sturmwind. The resulting Fragmentation was always glorious. The war/thf would tank 'til the mob died, often. But the SC/MB was so great that it didn't matter.

As of level 55, it's hard to argue with Rampage. At least for me, I went from 3-400 SA sturmwinds to 2-400 Rampages with higher DoT. All Axe WSs prior to it did like 100ish damage (even Smash axe, hence I didn't mind using it).

Level 60 is Raging Rush. Like Celeal said, it's not consistent enough to be stacking with SATA (Btw, Vyuru, TA adds no damage when subbed, but seems to have full hate transference ability, unless there's some testing I'm not aware of). It'll always hit for right around 100 dmg less than Rampage (Rampage does 4-600 on crawlers, my RRs do 3-500, etc), so it's not exactly as potent. Which is depressing. The good news is that the /sam DD benefits are technically better than /nin. 50+, the only reason to sub NIN is protection, IMO. /thf will keep up in damage for 5 levels, but /sam should keep up in damage up 'til 60, where it should statistically surpass /nin.

15% more damage (same tp rate) versus 10% more damage and 10% more tp (just from the melee-haste) +15% tp via Store TP (Can I add this and the haste together for 25% more tp? Or is that mathmatically incorrect?) and then 60 free tp every 3 minutes.

The things that are harder to measure (still comparing /NIN to /SAM) are the gross overpoweredness of one-handed weapon stats as they compare to the +10 acc from Hasso and the +5 STR you'd get from it.

And then there's Utsusemis vs Seigan. But this is a bit of a cross-over, as Seigan Counters have a pretty good proc rate and can actually be used as another avenue of increasing damage output.

At any rate, I've only done /sam once in party post update. I was lucky in that I got a PLD party leader who said "I'm interested to see how it'd work out." But I'd like to try it again on a mob that's not Imps. Expect lots of details from me in the coming weeks (I'll resume leveling in ~2 weeks if all goes well, and I'll prolly /sam most of it from 70-75).

Celeal

01-17-2007, 11:19 AM

From level 25+ to 40+, the advantage of Shield Break + attack food (like Rice Drumplings) is that the DD WAR can switch to emergency tank with Defender: The attack food bonus can overcome the negative 25% attack of Defender, while Shield Break take care the accuracy for WAR to hold hate during emergency. That gives enough Defense and DoT (Hate) to do the task. It works for war/mnk, war/nin, war/thf...

You can step in for emergency tanking with Sushi at early levels, but it does not work well with Defender. Armor Break is not suitable for mob like Crawler or Carb which spam Def+ buffs. Weapon Break's usage is very limited for a DD WAR. Full Break comes into play too late.

At later level when sushi is very practical, I would expect the mage to sleep the mob.

Karinya

01-17-2007, 05:14 PM

You don't get the grossly overpowered stat 1h weapons until higher levels, I think. Unless you're counting Viking Axe as one of them.

As far as the TP of /SAM, I think adding the bonuses is incorrect, you should multiply them. You get 10% more swings, each of which gives 15% more TP (is that correct? It seems like a lot) if it connects. And you're neglecting Zanshin, to boot (unlike some other jobs, you aren't giving up double attack to get it - you have *both*). I don't have any data on Zanshin proc rates though, so neglecting any difference caused by acc I make it
1.1 (number of extra swings) x 1.15 (extra TP per hit) = 1.265 times the TP gain of someone whose sub doesn't provide any TP gain benefit, from just Hasso and Store TP (meaning you will actually get more because Zanshin will proc at *some* nonzero rate).

If I recall correctly, /NIN doesn't in fact provide any TP gain benefit, since unlike Hasso's haste (and gear, song and spell hastes), DW haste *does* reduce TP gained per hit by the same amount that it improves delay. So even before meditate (and therefore also before there is any skill gap between axe and gaxe) you can confidently expect to out-TP a similarly geared WAR/NIN by a significant margin. Basically the only TP tricks they have are DA and Aggressor, which you have too in addition to your /SAM traits and abilities. And that's assuming they never cast in combat, which would actually *lower* their TP gain and DoT. All your /SAM abilities have negligible "casting time".

P.S. As I finish this post I suddenly remember that TP per hit as a function of delay is not linear, and therefore the "base" TP gain per unit time is not necessarily the same for different weapons, so that would have to be multiplied in too. I don't remember which weapon it would favor, though.

Vyuru

01-17-2007, 06:12 PM

Well, 15% of what, 13ish TP per hit is about... +1.95tp per hit, seems about right. Hah, boosting ranged attacks up to 18 TP per hit :D

Even if TA provides full hate transfer, I think I may be more inclined to go with war/sam, partly because more information on it would be nice, and partly because it seems interesting. Also if I go as war/thf, which while not bad, does kind of stick me into one role in the party. War/sam offers a little of the job flexibility that I like.

Once you get Full Break, which Break WS should you use? Full Break is weaker, but hits across all fronts, and looks pretty nice IMO.

Celeal

01-18-2007, 06:37 AM

From the info I read for Full Break, the debuff is tier 3, which means tier 1 buff like Cocoon or Scissor Guard cannot override Full Break.

Malacite

01-18-2007, 09:17 AM

1-10: WAR/WHM to reduce downtime

10-20: WAR/MNK for boost and highest possible HP/VIT.

20-30: WAR/RNG owns all. +10 acc/racc is great, especially if you want to use
acid bolts with WAR's crappy D rating in Marksmanship.

30-50: WAR/THF here. Sneak Attack Sturmwind is where it's at! >:3 Your
fragmentation chains (closing) will easily rival a THF's Viper Bite.

50+ : From here on, it's either /SAM, /THF or /NIN. If you want to go GAX all
the way, I'd say /SAM for Hasso at least until lv 60, and even then.

As for what weapons, stick mainly with GAX. Missing with a two hander really sucks >< and it's your A+ rated weapon. Sturmwind owns all the other 2-handed weaponskills for a good long time anyway. But if you want to be picky, you can always carry a Polearm around in the event that you're facing down fliers.

Lmnop

01-18-2007, 07:33 PM

-yes, DW lowers tp gained/swing and thus doesn't actually increase overall tp gain.

-I think the (semi) recent tp change made the weapons more uniform, thus throwing out any inconsistencies.

-war/nin 55-60 is inevitable. rampage simply has no equal (and remember, this is coming from a career war/nin hater).

-10% extra tp/swing for Store TP I, 15% for II according to FFXIclopedia. I'm inclined to believe it. I get ~15ish tp/swing with Greataxe.

-no reason not to carry around the best Polearm for your level since you already have it capped. In fact, if you plan on leveling WAR after getting some merits under your belt, having an effective A rank Polearm on WAR could be quite impressive 49+ (Mighty Strikes Penta Thrust with 300% tp should theoretically be much more potent than Rampage under same conditions. Now toss in Souleater :D).

And yeah, Karinya pretty much just pinned down why when you look at subjobs by themselves, /sam is hands down better. In no way shape or form can /nin approach it. What's not accounted for is over-powered one handed weapons and over-powered one handed Weapon Skills.

Armando

01-19-2007, 04:28 AM

You don't get the grossly overpowered stat 1h weapons until higher levels, I think. Unless you're counting Viking Axe as one of them.This is very true, particularly for WAR/NINs - axe DMG/sec stops progressing so well past 48.

Lv.48 Viking Axe --------------- DMG/sec: 7.83 | Accuracy +10
Lv.50 Tct.Mag. Espadon ------- DMG/sec: 8.87 | Attack +12
Lv.52 Tct. Mag. Espadon +2--- DMG/sec: 9.71 | Attack +12
Lv.56 Darksteel Axe +1 ------- DMG/sec: 9.18
Lv.60 Tungi --------------------- DMG/sec: 9.46
Lv.60 Bastard Sword +1 ------ DMG/sec: 10.23
Lv.66 Espadon +1 ------------- DMG/sec: 10.27 | Attack +7
Lv.68 Acha d'Armas ----------- DMG/sec: 9.58 | STR+2 DEX+1 | Rare/Ex
Lv.69 Nazdiak +1 -------------- DMG/sec: 9.31 | DEX+3
Lv.70 Juggernaut --------------- DMG/sec: 9.58 | STR+3 Attack+30 | Rare
Lv.70 Company Sword -------- DMG/sec: 10.45 (11.59 in full party)
Lv.70 Joyeuse ------------------ DMG/sec: 14.07 w/ DA | 50% non-stacking DA rate (125% TP gain w/ DW) | Piercing hits | Rare/Ex
Lv.73 Maneater ------------------DMG/sec: 10.65 w/ Latent | STR+5 (+1 DMG to both weapons)

Past level 50 bastard swords are always one step ahead of axes in terms of DMG/sec; if anything, they're the overpowered one-handers. Even Juggernaut is lacking in DMG/sec (though, of course, it makes up for it by having +30 Attack which counts for both weapons.) A WAR with sword merits (even with just 4) would most likely perform better with Sword/Sword than Axe/Sword, and better with Axe/Sword than Axe/Axe.
From the info I read for Full Break, the debuff is tier 3, which means tier 1 buff like Cocoon or Scissor Guard cannot override Full Break.Actually, it's tier 2, but yes, it'll overpower the great majority of mob +Attack/Defense/Evasion/Accuracy buffs. As for Full Break vs Shield Break, I guess it depends on mob and party setup. If the mob is capable of buffing itself, Full Break would be a better choice; if there's a RNG or THF that can land Acid Bolts well (don't know how well WAR would be able to land them with D skill in the 50's, and I also know that sometimes marksmanship falls behind,) then Shield Break takes the lead. Under other circumstances, it's sort of a toss-up I suppose, since Full Break is kinda half-and-half for DD'ing, but it'd be worth it if you have a PLD tank (-12.5% Attack isn't as much as +25% Defense, but that's still enough for me to want to use Sushi over Def food.)

Also, yeah, like Karinya said the proper way would be to multiply the bonuses (although 15 Store TP doesn't translate perfectly into 15% faster TP, since TP gain is segmented rather than continuous, especially so for two-handers.) Also, yeah, like Lmnop said the TP patch made TP gainining speed a lot more consistent for mid delays and high delays, while bringing low delays closer to the norm (sub-180 Delays still get TP faster if you go low enough, but less so than before the patch.) And yes, Store TP II is 15%.

Having merited polearm would sooooo rock on colibris.

Vyuru

01-19-2007, 12:28 PM

Full Break would be a better choice; if there's a RNG or THF that can land Acid Bolts well (don't know how well WAR would be able to land them with D skill in the 50's, and I also know that sometimes marksmanship falls behind,) then Shield Break takes the lead. Under other circumstances,

Ohh, that's something I didn't think about, do Acid Bolts stack with Full Break or does Full Break overwrite Acid Bolts since FB is level 2 and AB are lvl 1 debuffs? Shortening since I have to run to class in two minutes :P

Having merited polearm would sooooo rock on colibris.

I had a party once in king ranperre's tomb, me drg/war with a holy lance I think, the war/nin pulled out the lvl 50 lance that they can use, she was almost my equal in damage, it was really amazing. She also had really good gear, almost absurdly good gear in comparison with the other wars I've partied with in that level range, but even so it was an eye opener as to what a good war can do.

Lmnop

01-19-2007, 09:26 PM

Celeal

01-27-2007, 03:40 PM

I used Full Break on an Eruca in Mt. Zhayolm for a quick and dirty test. He used Cocoon and gained the effect of defense boost (it didn't say "has no effect").

I'm not gonna say there wasn't an error in that, and I really don't wanna believe it's true. But I don't think Full Break can prevent mobs from buffing now (if it ever could). I'm certain that it overrides existing effects though, just like the rest of the Breaks.

And yeah, I have a feeling that Full break would make Acid Bolts have "No effect." I'll test it when I get the chance (hard to find something that'll live through Full Break yet able for me to actually land my poor acid bolts on).

If that is the case, I will go check it out in my next party too. (Just level up to 65 in 2 hours ago ^^)

P.S.
I my last party I tried WAR/SAM for 3 hours: WAR/NIN first 3 hours in party, then reapply sanction in town and secretly job change to WAR/SAM XD. I leveled from 63 to 65 in the same party for 6 hours. WAR/SAM is so awesome! Even with Axe + Shield with WAR/SAM is very solid (for trying to keep both G.Axe + Axe capped).

WAR/SAM with G.Axe completely owns in TP gain. I can actually Skillchain in melee heavy party (RDM, BRD, PLD, WAR/SAM, RNG/NIN, SAM/THF), and have enough TP for Armor Break when timer of Beserk or Warcry is not ready.

Party disbanded after I leveled up, haven't cap weapons to unlock Full Break or Mistral Axe yet. I will miss WAR/SAM if I am forced to use WAR/NIN in exp parties again v.v

Armando

01-27-2007, 03:56 PM

Regarding Cocoon, I think the /check message would've been a much better indicator. You can overwrite Dia with Bio, but it won't tell you Dia wore off. Also, I'm pretty sure that when I tried to find some pattern for Armor Break and Acid Bolts overwriting each other (I couldn't, though) the Acid Bolts would always report the Defense Down effect even if it didn't actually kick in (i.e. the mob remained with Armor Break's -25% defense instead of shifting down to -12.5% defense from acid bolts.)

Would suck if Full Break doesn't prevent buffing.

Lmnop

01-28-2007, 05:48 AM

Interesting. Certainly got a lot harder for me to test with my scant few online hours.

What you said about Acid bolts always reporting regardless of whether or not they actually took effect (in that case, I'd assume they always report their defense down, but it overlaps the def down of Armor Break -- since 25% is bigger, it's the number that shows. If Armor Break were to wear off before Acid Bolts, it should fall to 12.5%.) brings up the issue that Cocoon is doing the same thing. That their Defense + 50% may come into play, but since Full Break is a higher tier, it remains in full effect.

This would bring a new layer to the idea of tiers for buffs/debuffs. I'm not really sure what I'm thinking just yet, I'll try my best here... The intangibility postulate: Would effects of a lower tier go on like nothing happened? If you assume Full Break couldn't be removed unless by a buff of equal tier, could Cocoon and Acid bolts play on in addition to Full Break's effects? I'm kinda doubting it. What I'm hoping for (just because it'd make sense) is...

Crawler has Cocoon up. Full Break lands, it whipes the slate clean of defense buffs/debuffs (if I get around to testing the acid bolt + Full Break thing, this could prove otherwise). At this point, it's dispelled everything (that matters to the scenario) and is in full effect. Now, if Crawler uses Cocoon again, it says it gains the effect of it. The question is -- is it possible that the new cocoon is in place and just cannot take effect? This would provide the mob with something to be dispelled, whether or not it was doing anything.

I'm rambling the obvious, aren't I? I'm hoping to find a way to test this on weak mobs. I suppose with a WHM friend, Robber Crabs could live long enough for this.

And Celeal: Congratulations on 65. :D

@66 when you get Mistral Axe, you'll very seldom get a party that actually wants to SC. I don't mind doing war/nin if it means I get to make Light. Also, war/sam is suicide with NIN tanks. Unfortunately, no parties ever want pld tanks for my sake. =( This is why I'm so intent on war/sam 70+. If you always have a PLD around, then enjoy the fun. =)

Armando

01-28-2007, 06:02 AM

I don't think it's possible that the Acid Bolt kicked in but was overlapping with Armor Break - they take up the same "effect slot" on the player screen. i.e. They both count as Defense Down, and you can't seem to have two of them any more than you can have Defense Up and Defense Down at the same time; when I was soloing my BLU to 20 and I fought Dhalmels, I'd use Cocoon to overwrite their Sonic Wave - quite a nifty way of wasting a mob's TP if you ask me. In addition to that, the Sonic Wave doesn't keep running in the background - if I cancel Cocoon, I won't have it on. They're the same tier in potency, yet the weaker one gets overwritten fully rather than being latent; it'd be silly that a lower tier effect can overwrite the stronger one upon activation, because then there'd be no tiers at all (the higher tier will always overwrite the lower, but the lower will always overwrite the higher one.) Also, when overwriting Dia with Bio, Dia won't give the message that it wore off at all - if it had been running in the background with Bio taking precedence, then logically it should've given the "The whatever's Dia effect wears off" message at some point.

I believe they're simply programmed to report what they did as long as it succeeded even if it didn't actually happen. What I mean is, I think the game will always attach the line "The <insert variety of Crawler here> gains the effect of Defense Boost" to "The Crawler uses Cocoon" regardless of the outcome. Likewise, the game may check for Acid Bolt's procs first (and show the corresponding animations and messages) before it decides whether or not the effect can stay.

Ideally, you'd want a mob that doesn't give a defense check message alone, and drops to low Defense with Full Break. Cocoon will be enough to take it to High Defense, so the /check messages will faithfully report which of the two effects is up at any given moment. You could use Defender to be able to force normal defense /checks on lower mobs while at the same time boosting your endurance, too, as long as you keep it on always.

EDIT: Somehow I totally missed Celeal's post. That's really awesome, it's good to hear WAR/SAM works as well in practice as it does on paper. I hope you get lots of more chances to try it out ^^