What are the chances for a "Clear Heart" ability?

[Yellow Mage]

I was thinking about the ability "Clear Mind," while looking at the http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Blue_Mage_Job_Traits page, and noticed that where a verbally equal opposite exsisted to a trait (Attack Bonus & Defense Bonus, Autos Regen and Refresh, Accuracy & Evasion Bonuses, etcetera), it was possible for a Blue Mage to get either.

But then I noticed "Clear Mind." After looking all over the site http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/ I noticed that there existed no equivalent for HP. And while I know it is prudent for those particular back-line Mages to rest often mid-battle, and that Clear Mind helps them achieve what they aim to by doing it (more MP for thier spells), certainly there could be introduced an equivalent for Meleers? It can help reduce thier downtime, and the healers' downtime, in-between battles.

What do you all think? Good idea? Bad idea? I should crawl back into a hole?

[Macht]

Intresting idea for hHP trait, but I'm not as sure on how much intrest it really has. I mean a WHM is likely to keep the Melee's near full anyway along with if Melee's are resting they are destroying the TP they gained. So there just isn't enough times were a Melee would be resting to make that trait worth it.

The hHP idea seems more beneficial for soloing aspects then anything.

[eticket109]

that would be pretty cool for soloing

[Icemage]

There are a number of items and foods that improve hHP already - and I don't know of any reason that any job would need or want hHP innately.

http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/list-by-affect.php?affect=HP%20Regeneration%20While%20Heal ing

More to the point, Garlic Crackers are easy to make for even mid-level Cooks, as is Goblin Chocolate. The NQ version of these foods last 3 minutes and give +5 HP recovered while healing.

And of course the R/EX Gelong Staff (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/6959) which gives +4 hHP and is ridiculously easy to get.


Icemage

[Karinya]

What I think would be much more useful would be a trait that reduced TP loss to healing. Imagine if (say) BLU, PLD and DRK could rest losing only 5 TP per healing increment instead of the usual 10. With the advent of Absorb-TP, that small an amount of TP loss would no longer be an impediment to DRK resting in parties (at least once every couple fights, and assuming they're not the puller), which would allow them to use their spells more freely; meanwhile, PLD and BLU already *do* rest in parties, but pay quite a lot of TP to do it.

This wouldn't do much to overall balance because PLD and BLU can't get that much benefit from their TP anyway (compared to other jobs) and DRK still needs a boost (IMO).

Although the chief effect of this trait would be to let those jobs get back their *MP* with less TP cost; nobody rests for HP if they have a choice because it's so slow and TP-costly. Even soloers, these days, are better advised to use a healer NPC if for some reason they don't want to sub WHM, RDM, or BLU.

[Jei]

Hmm I don't know. There are many reasons to keep the HP in the yellow currently, like triggering the level 50 rings latent effects. And PLD can really use that little HP to cure for more hate at the beginning of the fight. So, don't give it to PLD or WAR at the least.

[Akashimo]

Monk, Sam, Drk, Drg and Bst would most likely benefit from this the most due to mnk's naturally high hp and they are like smns mp but with hp yet they don't have clear body to balance with clear mind and max mp boost. Sam for their tp position, drk so they don't feel left out, Drg and Bst since they can solo as well as exp in pties.

[Icemage]

Monk, Sam, Drk, Drg and Bst would most likely benefit from this the most due to mnk's naturally high hp and they are like smns mp but with hp yet they don't have clear body to balance with clear mind and max mp boost. Sam for their tp position, drk so they don't feel left out, Drg and Bst since they can solo as well as exp in pties.
Melees aren't designed to rest, in any case.

Monks have Chakra, and they have a bit of hHP on their AF2 armor as well. Dark Knights have Drain and Aspir. Dragoons have the option to sub mage to activate Healing Breath.

BST don't do the dirty work of taking damage themselves anyway, though to be fair they're also the only job in your list who even do any resting.

I suppose I'm a bit dubious about any job trait or ability that encourages melees to rest (personally I think it'd be way more interesting if you gained TP while resting, but that would really wreck game balance maybe... though if the TP gain were mild it wouldn't be bad probably - perhaps +2% per heal tick instead of -10%).


Icemage

[Neomage]

Lets see... at +2 TP/tick, they would reach 100 TP at... 50 ticks... to 510 seconds... a little under 9 minutes O.o Dosn't seem bad to me at all, because 9 minutes off a BCNM fight or something can be a pretty setback and even a loss if it dosn't go quite as planned.

[bikkebakke]

I like the idea because it adds to the solobility of the game. I think a little more solo incentive wouldn't hurt anything. It's not like it would turn the game into WoW or anything, but just make being lfg a little more eventful for those not fortunate enough to be well funded for crafting.

[Yellow Mage]

I've never tried it before, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think if you're hit while resting, you stop resting, correct? If so, the last people to get anything like this would be those who even THINK of tanking (and don't say anything about Ninjas, because they don't even need anything like this).

This, however, would be a rightful boon to Beastmasters, Dragoons, Monks, Red Mages, and, of course, Blue Mages: Red and Blue Mages are supposed to be Mageknights in the first place, so access to both Clear Traits seems reasonable (RDMs have both bonuses to some of thier JSE, like thier Relic Accesory "Duelist's Belt," for example); Beastmasters could use it, as said earlier, for better soloing; Dragoons . . . they just need a tiny bit more love as far as Job Traits go, imo; and Monks are the kings of HP, so it would be a disgrace NOT to give it to them.

Clear Heart V could be available to Level 75 Beastmasters and Level 70 Monks.

Blue Mages and Dragoons would have access up to Clear Heart IV, and just as with Clear Mind, Red Mages would only get up to III, at 75.

I think this not only makes sense from a logical and practical standpoints, but from a roleplaying standpoint, too. What do you all think?

Clear Heart would not have any standing upon TP during rest, however that was an interesting idea brought up for a Job Trait that DOES have a standing on TP loss/gain while resting, and I personally wouldn't mind seeing it develop. However, that does not mean I promote this thread getting off-topic.

If anybody has any better ideas on this concept, please let me know.

[Icemage]

I've never tried it before, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think if you're hit while resting, you stop resting, correct? If so, the last people to get anything like this would be those who even THINK of tanking (and don't say anything about Ninjas, because they don't even need anything like this).
Not precisely accurate; you stop resting if you take damage. If you have a Stoneskin effect up and get hit for 0, you'll continue resting (this is a very important tactic sometimes).

This, however, would be a rightful boon to Beastmasters, Dragoons, Monks, Red Mages, and, of course, Blue Mages: Red and Blue Mages are supposed to be Mageknights in the first place, so access to both Clear Traits seems reasonable (RDMs have both bonuses to some of thier JSE, like thier Relic Accesory "Duelist's Belt," for example); Beastmasters could use it, as said earlier, for better soloing; Dragoons . . . they just need a tiny bit more love as far as Job Traits go, imo; and Monks are the kings of HP, so it would be a disgrace NOT to give it to them.
Giving job traits to jobs that can't make any use of them is a pointless. Dragoons don't rest much, and certainly not for HP - they're the most efficient healers in the game when they're using a mage subjob, and would be the absolute last on my list of jobs to give a trait like this to.

Red Mages? Please say no. Red Mages don't rest much if at all past level 41 once they have both Refresh and Convert. I know I haven't rested as a RDM but maybe once during down time around level 62, and I've never rested ... ever... on RDM at level 75.

Blue mages come in two varieties - combat BLU who fight and gain TP, and healer BLU/WHMs who backline and pretend to be WHMs with perks. The first group won't be resting since it'll wreck their TP. The second type doesn't normally take damage. So again, pointless to give it to Blue Mages when they won't make any use of it.


I think this not only makes sense from a logical and practical standpoints, but from a roleplaying standpoint, too. What do you all think?
If we were assigning abilities based on roleplaying, Monks would have Meditate. Fortunately, there's this thing called "game balance" that makes us wake up and realize that it's in our best interest to make sure all jobs stay at least relatively balanced and useful.


Icemage

[Jei]

Mnks should be able to use all weapons xD

The TP idea is nice. I think instead of generating TP while sitting, a trait that reduce TP lost would be useful enough.

[Yellow Mage]

Ok, thank you all for your feedback. I'll edit this post and comment more when I wake up XD .

[tdh]

Kudos on your fresh thinking, and working along with the balance of the game, but I think the only job that should gain this trait would be BST. At least how the OP outlined it in their first post.

As Icemage pointed out, melee's just should not be resting unless they're Weakened, and even then most of them just melee anyway so the party doesn't have to completely stop. In a Skillchain party you wanna make sure you're right in line with your Skillchain partner, and in a Burn party you want to make sure you don't fall back in your damage by having to wait longer to pop your WS.

I really like the job trait that either reduces the TP you lose when /heal'n, or the trait that actually rewards you a small amount of TP while /heal'n. There are times as DRK that I don't EXP on mobs with MP to Aspir, and a RDM who just shows me no love. Fortunately I do have a Parade Gorget (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Parade_Gorget) (Which is a recent addition to my toys and I don't always remember I have it! lol), coupled with Refresh Sanction, and 2 MP Merits I don't have to rely heavily on a RDM, but sometimes I'm not so lucky. So if I am forced to /heal, it would be nice to lose a reduce amount of TP. BLU, DRK & PLD would greatly benefit from this. So if you /heal for 4 ticks, in stead of losing 40% TP, you only lose 20% and that's something you can regain quickly, especially for DRK.

The +2%TP per tick is another idea I like and can't immediately see any balancing issues. Give it to PLD, DRK, BLU, and maybe SMN. Since S-E seems to have eluded to wanting SMNs to melee. (Adding TP to the SMN when using their Category 2 Merited BPs.) Though, knowing S-E as we do you'd still lose 10% per tick while /heal'n, but they'd "give you" 2% each time as well. So you'd only lose 8%. I can't imagine they would just completely halt the lose of TP while /heal'n, though it would make us Melee MP users quite happy.

And RDM doesn't /heal. I Merited for 4 hours on Monday, the only times I /heal'd was when we took breaks. BRD was pulling and only gave me Ballads about 15% of the time, but I still have plenty of MP, plenty of Refresh, plenty of skill, and Convert to make sure I never once had to rest. I even had MP enough to nuke and help push our chains in to the 20's a few times.

[Jei]

It would have minimal use in PT for mages.
Smn soloing means they can get closer to spirit taker while they rest :O a little bit unbalance there I think.
PLD is the best candidate for this. Drk already has absorb TP.

[Yellow Mage]

. . . I have NO idea whether everybody is talking about hHP or hTP anymore!!!!!

. . . I don't like being thread hijacked :'( .

How about from now on, people address the hTP comment brought up a while back as "Clear Aura" to distinguish it from my hHP idea of "Clear Heart" (at least until somebody thinks they have a better name). Referring to an undefined concept (using "It" to reffer to the idea you're talking about) is so confusing @_@ .

A reduction to -hTP to a high level Trait of a potentially (small) +hTP seems visable for SAM, BLU, DRK, and PLD.

I may be getting ahead of myself, but as for hTP, hMP, and hHP, it would also be nice if one could spend Merit points for increasing them and maybe even for increasing the amount they go up by per tick. Between the topics of Traits and Merits, I'd like to see what you all think.

[Neomage]

hHP, hMP, and hTP merits actually sound like an interesting idea... after all they have max MP and HP merits.
Lets say you can have 10 in that category... 5 per hStat. Most would use for 5 for hMP, and the other 5 could be used for hTP(elimitate TP loss when resting) or hHP(faster resting)

[Jei]

I was talking about hTP :O

[Raydeus]

I think this +hHP trait would be great for jobs that can't heal themselves, it is true you can sub a mage job but that's not the point.

HP recovery should be as fast (or even faster) than MP recovery while resting, specially on jobs that don't have any native healing abilities that could match Cure/Regen spells and songs.

The trait makes sense, and also does having a trait that would let you /heal and reduce TP loss from doing so.

[Icemage]

I don't think the trait makes much sense. No one uses hHP gear as it is aside from early solo levels, and that happens only rarely. I don't see any case where people would want to go out of their way to receive an hHP trait in lieu of something more useful.


Icemage

[Raydeus]

I don't think the trait makes much sense. No one uses hHP gear as it is aside from early solo levels, and that happens only rarely. I don't see any case where people would want to go out of their way to receive an hHP trait in lieu of something more useful.

If you don't solo much this trait will do nothing for you, but if I can save time and MP getting a few hundred extra HP in a full rest then I'll take it.

Really unless you solo you won't notice a thing so it wouldn't hurt to have it for those who do.

[Icemage]

If you don't solo much this trait will do nothing for you, but if I can save time and MP getting a few hundred extra HP in a full rest then I'll take it.

Really unless you solo you won't notice a thing so it wouldn't hurt to have it for those who do.

Exactly. And the only jobs that do this on a regular basis are BST, with maybe BLU, RDM, DRG and NIN occasionally. DRG and RDM don't actually need it - neither does BLU, really. Which leaves just NIN and BST.


Icemage

[Yellow Mage]

This isn't something so earth-shattering that everybody will be like "ZOMGZORZ, now I must change sub 4 teh hHPzOrZ1!!1!"

It'll be more like "Huh, my job is getting a fairly neat Trait, how nice. Granted, I won't use it that much in your typical party, but then again, I don't really use the 'Resist (insert status ailment here)' Trait that much in your typical party, either."

DRG, RDM, and BLU could all use it well, if they ever wanted to use it. And it'd be a spit in the face not to give it to MNK. And, as agreed, BST could use it potentially to its fullest.

Honestly, I see no harm in it.

[Raydeus]

Exactly. And the only jobs that do this on a regular basis are BST, with maybe BLU, RDM, DRG and NIN occasionally. DRG and RDM don't actually need it - neither does BLU, really. Which leaves just NIN and BST.

Even if BST was the only job able to take advantage of it that doesn't change it's usefulness.

[Lmnop]

Icemage's missing one important factor: inventory. When I solo as WAR (which I like to do, even if WAR sucks at it), I can barely bring evasion, r.acc, and attack. I usually only bring parts of my attack set since they barely affect my damage on EP. This concept can also be extended to when I'm duo'ing and trio'ing. Often in those situations, there's not enough healing to sustain and I have to rest a lot. It takes me like 10 minutes to recover my 1337 hp (yeah, that's really how much I have right now). So yeah, it'd be very nice to carry around a Golong staff and all sorts of +hHP gear, but I'm not gonna. A trait would save me inventory more than anything.

Virus makes it so you can't rest hp or mp, right? Then why do Warriors get Resist Virus when the game was designed in a manor to discourage melee from resting?

[Icemage]

I'm not discounting the fact that hHP gear and/or foods use up inventory slots. I'm pointing out that there are many more glaring problems in the game that need to be addressed before mostly cosmetic changes like an hHP trait should be implemented. No job "needs" this trait. Sure, it's nice, but I'd much rather Square-Enix spent some time doing things like fixing Puppetmasters and giving more tangible boosts to Beastmasters than giving one/few jobs a job trait that typically won't see much use.


Icemage

[Yellow Mage]

Well said. No arguement here.

[Macht]

Icemage's missing one important factor: inventory. When I solo as WAR (which I like to do, even if WAR sucks at it), I can barely bring evasion, r.acc, and attack. I usually only bring parts of my attack set since they barely affect my damage on EP. This concept can also be extended to when I'm duo'ing and trio'ing. Often in those situations, there's not enough healing to sustain and I have to rest a lot. It takes me like 10 minutes to recover my 1337 hp (yeah, that's really how much I have right now). So yeah, it'd be very nice to carry around a Golong staff and all sorts of +hHP gear, but I'm not gonna. A trait would save me inventory more than anything.
Virus makes it so you can't rest hp or mp, right? Then why do Warriors get Resist Virus when the game was designed in a manor to discourage melee from resting?

But also consider how frequent those Resist Traits actually work. If you are not fighting mobs that are bombarding you with those spells they'll rarely if ever kick in. Out of my jobs and the resist trait the only one I've had used quite frequently was Resist Poison.

Then also you can't forget a WAR is supposed a very plyable job. They are able to use almost every weapon there is and on top of that is one of the jobs that was intentionally built to be usable as a defensive and offensive job near equally. The only thing limiting them is how they use their job abilities and equipment. So a hHP might make sense for them but again it's actual application will more frequently been seen in the solo or parties less then 6 people.

[Raydeus]

The uselessness of Resist traits had to do with how magic defense was calculated before it's "Adjustment" so right now those traits are pretty much the same as not having anything at all. Or at least that's what the update history said.

About inventory I don't think it would change things much, the same way we use cookies pies and gear to get more MP even with Clear Mind the same way we'd use items even with this trait.

Sure, it's nice, but I'd much rather Square-Enix spent some time doing things like fixing Puppetmasters and giving more tangible boosts to Beastmasters than giving one/few jobs a job trait that typically won't see much use.

Adding the trait would take waaaay less time than it would take to improve jobs (specially PUP, I still have no idea what they are supposed to do at all. o.O ).

So I want my trait!

I see your point though, and I seriously doubt SE is ever gonna implement this kinda trait anyway (but can't blame me for wishing :P ).

[pearlsea]

Personally i don't need this on my bst/nin anymore because healing with rune axes is A LOT faster then /heal and can be done when meleeing, but this would of been a godsend for 1-69.