My suggestion is that pld and whm should gain traits that will allow their cure spells to heal about 10% more per spell, so Cure would return 33hp, Cure II would be 198 hp, and so on.

My thought is that both jobs right now are having a bit of trouble getting into parties at the higher levels. It seems the norm now for TP burns to either have a rdm or a smn main healer, and not to want a whm. Pld while improved, still could use a little boost.


Whm should get two of this trait, one at about level 40, the other at about level 55. The idea is that a Whm would now be able to heal better than any other mage. Once a whm got two of these traits, their Cure spells would be very potent, but I don't think they would be so healing so much more as to make a smn or rdm main healer obsolete, just not as preferred. Plus, whm would still need to rest or require refresh to keep their mp up.


Pld should only get one trait. The idea here is to open up the possibility of them being an offensive DD/healer. Now that they have Auto Refresh they don't need to rest to regain mp, while it's not much of a refresh, toss in Sanction Refresh, a Parade Gorget, and other refresh sources and it's suddenly very good. They have a fairly decent manapool at their disposal, and they also have the good healing/protect spells. I'm not 100% sure but I think that paladins get them slightly earlier than rdm do. Get a lvl 60+ pld in DD gear with a war sub, and he should be able to do some very decent damage while tossing out cures and Flash as needed. In addition to that, by increasing the power of their Cure spells you increase the amount of damage that a paladin is able to mitigate. Both of these reasons might make them more appealing to high level exp parties.

IMHO, for reducing the rate of mp usage against physical damage, Slow, Paralyze, Flash/evade, parry, shield block is more affective in long term compare to increase the potency of cure. We already have Light Staff to increase cure potency by 10%.

The way I see the current situation is:
1. In order to gain exp. points, the mobs needs to be defeated.
2. Higher damage output from the party, means faster the mobs die, which translates to higher exp. gain over time. (see point #1)
3. More damage dealers present in the party, means higher damage output. (see point #2)
4. We only have 6 slots in a party. (see point #3)

How to get the most damage output from a party while keep the party alive and going at the same time? (see points #1, #2, #3, #4)

Answer: TP-burn (currently). In the old days, mana-burn, arrow-burn, monks-bones-burn, etc.

The traditional PT setup, Skillchain + MB, which is the original design/concept, is obsolete at high level nowadays.

If S-E does not see the 4 points from above, I doubt S-E can fix it.

Whm are already by far the best healers in the game, the problem is that they can't really do much of anything else and high level parties don't really want a dedicated healer when they could use that slot for a multi-purpose job.

IMHO, for reducing the rate of mp usage against physical damage, Slow, Paralyze, Flash/evade, parry, shield block is more affective in long term compare to increase the potency of cure.

I agree, but to be honest I can't think of the last time a rdm enfeebled the mob. Most times when the mob is paralyzed it's because of Shiva's Ice Spikes. Pretty much the only time I see a mob enfeebled is either Blind by a paladin, or a ninja using the elemental wheel or else just certain Ninjitsu.

I don't know how much of a problem SE views TP burns, but given past examples it looks like TP burns are here to stay for awhile. Instead of trying to come up with ways to change or eliminate TP burns, it might be an idea of how to work with them instead. I read about how pld used to be more of a backup healing DD, and I thought this might be a good way to allow them to get back in that role if they so desired.

And I should say that I don't expect to see much magic cast on mobs like Colibri who cast it back at you, so I can understand not enfeebling those. But I am talking about mobs in the low IT range, who are easy to kill yes, but the fight does take a little bit, so a few enfeebles would be nice.

I don't think that high level parties want a multi-purpose healer, at least in regards to TP burns. All of the TP burns I've been in always yelled at the smn for using blood pacts and wasting mp, but that might change once you go higher up.


Still, I think it might be an interesting idea, might not be the best though ^^;

PLD have gotten some very substantial boosts lately, and while I don't think it has done much to help their XP party plight, it has really turned around their effectiveness at level 70+.

WHM got two nifty toys with the previous round of Group 2 Merits - namely Devotion and Martyr. Unfortunately, as merit abilities, these don't help those WHMs still trying to get to 75.

In a perfect world, I think WHM would get a lot more party invites if Devotion (transfer 1/4 of your current HP to another party member as MP) were instead a level 38+ ability.

Really though, the problem is that TP-burn parties focus intensely on efficiency over time. Perhaps the best way to alleviate the problem is to provide a new form of XP party that can rival a TP-burn that makes use of the currently less-desirable job. Of course, saying this and finding a design that does it successfully are two entirely different things...


Icemage

I think the problem comes from the mobs as well. For example, like Colibri which brought up by Vyuru in previous post, while blm cannot nuke those Colibri, but melee can burn those without using food... <.<

The mob spawn time, defence against melee and magic, in ToAU and outside ToAU, and Signet should be revisted imho.

PLD have gotten some very substantial boosts lately, and while I don't think it has done much to help their XP party plight, it has really turned around their effectiveness at level 70+.

I really don't know what else can they do for PLD save for making them ignore level difference when taking hits from anything up to 7 levels above the PLDs lvl (so IT would count as EM when calculating damage taken).

That of course would never apply to NM but it would be a good way to improve PLD's standing in xp parties.

And they could also either make PLD's abilities generate even more hate or make hate decay much lower (maybe negating hate decay with shield blocks regardless of damage taken or even making shield blocks generate hate with Shield Mastery).

The way things are now even with the new toys we got I feel like I'm hurting the party by taking the place another DD or a NIN could have and make xp flow much faster. >.<

Actually, you know, I was in a merit party last night with a Paladin. We can joke all we want about lolPLD and such, but having a backup healer who can take hits and still deal some damage out works out VERY well even in TP-burns even if they never throw a single Provoke.

I know it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside to have a Paladin available in a TP burn party when I'm on RDM - it takes some of the pressure off of me to ration out MP every 10 minutes between Converts, especially as I'm spending tons of MP casting Protect, Haste, Refresh, Dia II/III, Dispel, Paralyze I/II, Slow I/II, without even mentioning Regen and Cures.

Honestly, PLD has the tools to be very effective at TP-burn these days. Most TP burn parties bring overkill damage and not enough healing to the table, and a PLD does a really excellent job at covering for a RDM - he's basically a second Refresh battery for Cures.

EDIT: Incidentally, to anyone who would suggest that having a PLD in my merit party was "gimp" - I got 31000ish XP in just a shade over 2 hours with a PLD NIN WAR MNK BRD RDM setup, with me on RDM and not once did I ever manage to run out of MP on RDM even on occasions where we had massive amounts of links (at one point we were juggling SIX enemies - zero deaths, and still held the XP chain).


Icemage

Hmmm, that would require a major mentality change in most of the PLDs around, save for Maju I haven't seen anyone embrace the DD/Backup-healer aproach to PLD.

It might be an good solution for the situation, but in that case I'd level BLU instead because it would work better for that kind of playstyle.

I picked PLD because it plays similar to RDM and because I always wanted to tank and protect the party by being the one taking the hits, so I dunno if I'd be able to take another kind of aproach to the job without simply quitting for something else.

I think I would just keep playing RDM instead and forget about PLD for merit parties.

Really though, the problem is that TP-burn parties focus intensely on efficiency over time. Perhaps the best way to alleviate the problem is to provide a new form of XP party that can rival a TP-burn that makes use of the currently less-desirable job. Of course, saying this and finding a design that does it successfully are two entirely different things...


Icemage

I've always had a concept of a quest that granted a new form of signet should be added. Instead of only a bonus for chaining, a bonus would also be given for skillchains and magic bursts as well. Another bonus given for EXPing in Zones not under conquest by your nation.

Make it some quest, people on the mainlands are thinking the Near East has made adventurers soft and want to reinforce teamwork and strategy. Some questable NM involved and all that. Make it a quest accessable to players at level 50 thier first time through. Something like that.

Hmmm, that would require a major mentality change in most of the PLDs around, save for Maju I haven't seen anyone embrace the DD/Backup-healer aproach to PLD.
I've been a pretty solid fan of PLD as DD/backup healer for quite some time. With competent melees, you don't need the PLD to put out huge numbers as long as he's contributing. And while BLU and PLD play similar roles for a good stretch of levels, at 70 PLDs pull way ahead once they get access to Joyeuse (or failing that, Justice Sword at 73).


Icemage

I agree with Icemage, whm and pld have gotten some really kickass boosts, but most of those boosts deal with merit abilities, or at least that's what it looks like to me. While those are nice and all, it doesn't help the level 60+ whm or pld trying to get a party.

like Colibri which brought up by Vyuru in previous post, while blm cannot nuke those Colibri, but melee can burn those without using food... <.<


I've been wondering about those Colibri actually, if a Colibri got hit by two magic spells at the same time, what would it do? Could you time something like Blind with Thunder III? Could a blm drop a nuke on them at extreme spellcasting range, and dash out of range before the bird casts it back?

And while it is true that melee can go without using food, you'd be surprised at the amount of Sole Sushi+1 that the birds eat.

And they could also either make PLD's abilities generate even more hate or make hate decay much lower (maybe negating hate decay with shield blocks regardless of damage taken or even making shield blocks generate hate with Shield Mastery).

I REALLY like the idea of making shield blocks negating the hate loss for that hit, much like Counter does, it'd be interesting to see how much more hate a pld could hold that way.


Perhaps the best way to alleviate the problem is to provide a new form of XP party that can rival a TP-burn that makes use of the currently less-desirable job. Of course, saying this and finding a design that does it successfully are two entirely different things...


What about making 8 man parties available to higher level players in the 50-60+ level range? You could have the standard 6 man party, toss in an extra tank and healer and you could easily alternate healers and tanks each fight. If you wanted to tie it in with a quest, you could tie it in with the teamwork quests in Sand'Oria.

Of course an 8 man TP burn party would be rather scary to contemplate, so that might not be a good idea.

We can joke all we want about lolPLD and such, but having a backup healer who can take hits and still deal some damage out works out VERY well even in TP-burns even if they never throw a single Provoke.


That's good to know, I've never seen a pld go for a DD setup unless it was in a skillup party, so I haven't seen how well it would work. I have seen how well drk/whm can work though, and I would expect them to be somewhat similar.

Even if they aren't the main tank, I might start asking some plds to be a DD/backup healer if I can't find a suitable main healer.

I think SE just needs to add new monsters that are weak to the traditional EXP setup. They monsters should be weak for their level(like worms), hit super fast(like raptors, but low chance of spell interuption) and take extra damage from elemental attacks(like skillchains and magic bursts).

The problem with this is vaurnability to manaburns, but it would be much more EXP for a standard party.

qutrub are already "technically" traditional party-friendly, as they take double damage from everything. Thus, while your closing WS does double damage and your SC damage matches your closer's damage, it counts as a unique attack and thus gets doubled. So you'd see Shark Bite 2k (instead of 1k, for instance) and light 4k (instead of 1k normally, or doubled 2k, it gets doubled off of it's base amount). They have a ton of different weapon skills... from reading FFXIclopedia, it doesn't seem like they'd be that terrible. I've even heard that despite being undead, drain and abs-type spells work on them. Could someone enlighten me as to why we never fight them (yes, I know they have lots of HP but... is it really THAT MUCH?).

As for pld... I think what Raydeus was talking about was PLDs. Other jobs love to speculate about making pld dd/healer, but less Plds want to go buy haub.

Shield blocks don't need to negate enmity loss because most shield blocks result in the paladin taking single digits of damage. Thus, very trivial amounts of enmity are lost. Really, if S-E wants to program something that complicated, I'd rather see it applied to a system that makes a big difference... something like completely reworking cure spell formulas. But then, Rdms would reap the benefits just as much as whms/plds. Dunno.

Seems to me that the way the game currently is, people could theoretically make other jobs fill spots in merit parties just as well as the war war war nin rdm brd layout. But it just takes a lot more thought and competence than the above layout. I dunno, I'm not in the merit parties yet. Seems like Chivalry + Devotion on a decent rotation with ballad on the WHM could be just as good as having a rdm + nin.

Oh yeah, Bards. No job can replace bards in "good" merit parties. That's not fair to Rdms, Corsairs, Summoners, even White Mages. It's not fair that if you want great exp and happy party members, one of 6 slots is already devoted to the rare bard. That seems like the fundamental flaw of FFXI.

In other news... is anyone else having trouble with Mysterytour? every time I click on say.. hand equipment, their database just shows one entry and it's a bunch of @ signs.

As for pld... I think what Raydeus was talking about was PLDs. Other jobs love to speculate about making pld dd/healer, but less Plds want to go buy haub.

Yep, that's pretty much it, it would be like making BLMs mainhealers and debuffers without letting them nuke at all.

It could work, it could work well, but that goes against the reason I leveled PLD as my second job, so if I had to play PLD as DD/backup-healer all the time I'd just go duo with my npc instead or simply quit the job and go do something else.

Cures? Okay.

You see, I'm not one to be against nerfs. I know some people hate any kind of nerf, but anyway: Cures can be 'resisted'. Healing Skill now plays on how accurate your cures are. A WHM with A+ will probably get a resist once a month of partying everyday. A RDM with B- will probably get a resist once to three times every hour of partying. A PLD with A- will probably get a resist once a day of partying. Someone with /RDM or /WHM will likely be used to curing half the cap of HP for the level a lot of the time. MND still plays the role of cap-breaking.

WHMs and PLDs getting additional +Cure traits with or without the change above would be fine. Especially if one of the WHM's traits is below level 37, so that RDMs(or even BLMs, SMNs, and BRDs) have a better excuse to sub it.

Cures? Okay.

You see, I'm not one to be against nerfs. I know some people hate any kind of nerf, but anyway: Cures can be 'resisted'.


And, what would happen to SMN healers? >_>

I think SMN's have suffered enough without taking away their best ticket to the party during large number of levels.

(Not that I'm saying SMN's should be confined to main healing--I am perfectly happy to main heal in party on RDM if a SMN would take care of Haste for me and use other good buffs. Still, the dilemma is partially their fault--about half of the SMN's I partied with didn't know how to SC with bloodpacts when I asked for it--had to look the chart up for them and tell them how to time it.)

I'd rather nerf Utsusemi: Ichi from /NIN. Two attack absorb instead of three leaves it useful for pulling while giving PLD's and WHM's more chances to cure.

More intelligence for monsters which should be intelligent would be nice, too. If they see bunch of Utsusemi shadow absorbs, why not bust out AoE attacks? Banishga instead of Banish from beastmen WHM's, at the very least.

Beefing up AI here and there, and loosening the rules for when monsters can use TP attacks can really help balance things without players crying foul over nerf, too.

Or they can scale up the EXP gain in certian areas that require the tradtional set up. Or zones that mobs that remain alive for a while will yield bonus exp and slowly lowers the exp amount as you kill more of them to the base amount. This not only helps out non TP burns but also BSTs and soloers as well ;)

ToAU area would yield the flat rate all the time cause mobs are constantly getting killed.

One thing maybe would be to change the XP formulas for parties. Leave the 6 man party numbers pretty much where they are, and make the XP formula for smaller numbers of party members more generous.

Right now the XP tables give, relative to solo XP per player, assuming all players are at the same level:

Solo: 100%
2 people: 60%
3 people: 45%
4 people: 40%
5 people: 37%
6 people: 35%

For those who don't know what this means:
A solo player who defeats an Even Match enemy earns 100 XP. If a 6 person party defeats an enemy that is Even Match to the entire party, they'd earn 35 XP.

I wonder if players would change their habits if the XP table looked more like this:

Solo: 150% (Current Solo XP x 1.5 total for party )
2 people: 125% (Current Solo XP x 2.5 total for party)
3 people: 80% (Current Solo XP x 2.4 total for party)
4 people: 57.5% (Current Solo XP x 2.3 total for party)
5 people: 44% (Current Solo XP x 2.2 total for party)
6 people: 35% (Current Solo XP x 2.1 total for party)

I think one flaw in the original game design (well-intentioned or not) was that S-E wanted to encourage people to form 6 member parties for XP, since that earns the most XP as a whole for the party per kill. It did, but did so in such a way that people simply refuse to entertain anything but 6 member parties unless they're very open-minded, or have no choice (BST).

Seeing how BST is really the only efficient solo job in the game, and the change to Leave really hurt them, why not turn the tables a bit and give people some options for XP? After all, you'd expect 6 members to be able to kill things faster than 3 members anyway... so they're still earning more XP over time even if they're earning less total per kill.

This would also have the nice effect of weakening Bards and Corsairs a bit (not a lot, since they're still making people stronger by their presence, but it's also true that both jobs, being AoE buffers, are somewhat less effective with fewer party members).


Icemage

both of the above posts have good suggestions. But I don't think base exp for soloed mobs should be increased by 50%. Namely because BLM can already solo 10k in an hour. And Blus and Nins aren't far behind. In fact, I believe (but I'm not sure) that Bst is behind the aforementioned jobs in solo-ability (well, probably not NIN, but blm and blu).

It would be interesting if mobs basically spawned at level 80, and then their level increased for every minute they're alive until level 85. With AU pop rates, it could have interesting effects... or it could do nothing at all.

Are there still no end-game Marid spots? I missed the ideal levels to exp off of the only Marids I know of.

Furthering my idea…..

When I said EXP earned for less camped locations. Base the EXP on family type of mobs there for the whole zone instead of all the mobs lump together. Let’s go into detail, take the Dunes for example.

Theoretically speaking there are 10 Spawn points for each of the following mobs:

Goblin
Bat
Lizard
Ghost
Skeleton
Pugs
Crabs
Flies

If they were constantly killed as they spawned the rate would be 10 spawns an hour. 100 possible spawns within the zone total in an hour timeframe. Lets give them a percentage threshold (70%) which the EXP will start to dry up depending on how much the dip below 70%.

Party (A) kills only gobs and killed 25 of a possible 100 in the zone with in an hour. That’s 25% since the remaining possible mobs are 75% the bonus EXP rate remains the same for the next hour on Goblins.

Party (B) moves in to a different part of the zone but kills only gobs as well, and they manage to kill 30 of a possible 100, while Party (A) kill rate is the same. Total is 55% of 100 gobs are killed. During tally the zone would calculate that 45% remains and that’s 25% lower than the 70% threshold. Next hour bonus exp is reduced by 25% since that’s how much it dipped into the threshold bringing 100% to only 75% of the bonus. If the bonus is 100 EXP for an IT the next hour after tally it would be bonus 75 EXP.

Party (C) & (D) move in and start killing gobs as well and compete with (A) & (B) after another hour or two EXP would be at a flat rate as it is now. Than (A) all dings 20 and leaves the dunes (B) & (D) disbands and (C) said “Fuk this the exp suxorz, lets kill pugs!” Since pugs hasn’t been killed their EXP bonus remains at 100%. No one is killing gobs but the bonus is at 0%, that hour gobs were at 100 of 100 possible (100%) so that’s a gain of 30% over the threshold. In turn it will calculate that 30% to the bonus EXP back.

Apply this too all EXP zones and those zones with little or no EXP parties there would benefit the most from the bonus EXP while the TP-Burn zones don’t since the mobs are constantly dying there. Though this doesn’t completely fix the problem, its not nerfing anything either, keeps TP-Burn intact but promote some different choices in EXP locations. Heck this wouldn’t even be that hard to implement, look at how they tally conquest every hour, it can be done as part of the tally.

Something I was thinking of, which someone touched on earlier but didn't really expand on, is a skillchain / mb bonus. The bonus would be awarded based on the best single SC done per fight and with the level of the skillchain and tier of the spell so that a lvl 1 skillchain with Tier 1 MB gets a small bonus, while a lvl 3 SC with AM burst would net a substational bonus.

Set the numbers right and a traditional party could potentially make the same XP per hour as a TP burn party while still maintaining a slower kill rate. No need to nerf anything and ruin people's fun, nor any need to buff up the jobs left out of TP burn parties and potentially unbalance the game even further. Not only that but it gives lower level parties an incentive to start learning how to SC too. Everyone wins!

thing I don't like about that is that it honestly just trades efficiency for exp. Even if AM isn't ideal, it'll get the biggest exp boost. Likewise, no one would ever make Scission on Torama -- despite that being the only time in the game that you're asking for Scission -- just because distortion would give a small boost to the exp.

Honestly, just decreasing the resist rate of Skillchains would go a very long way.

I actually like the idea of what Legal Fish suggested. And then, to build off of that and Vyuru's original suggestion: Instead of traits that increase Cure potency, traits to further lower cure resist rates. WHM would get one @30 and another @70, while PLD would get a single trait @50, for instance.

I wanna see RDMs given a slew of unique enfeebles. Something that would make it so Whm + Rdm would function similarly to whm + brd, because instead of boosting all your melee, the rdm is debuffing every mob equivalently. That sort of thing could help move Rdm out of main healer position in end game (or lighten the blow of getting their main healing ability nerfed).

The main thing we need is new tables of monster relative level vs. base exp value for 66-, 71-, and 75. The 75 one in particular should take into account that most 75s have merits and therefore perform as 76, 77 or even 78 - and both of the over-70 ones need to take into account the ultra-powerful gear available to those levels too.

I'd also like to see two adjustments to the chain system: one increasing the base chain timer at level 70 (the same way it does at 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, and 60) and another making chain timers continue to decrease after chain #5 while the chain exp bonus does not increase further (thus while a party may achieve chain #6, 7 or 8, infinite chains would be eliminated). The #5 timer at level 70 would be 80 seconds by extending the existing table, I'd suggest 40 for #6, 27 for #7, 20 for #8, 16 for #9 etc. (i.e. 1/2, 1/3, 1/4... of the #5 timer). 27 seconds would be doable if you could save some TP while still killing #6 in time (and had the monster standing by in camp), but then it's very unlikely that you would *still* have the TP to kill #8 in 20 seconds. On tougher monsters even #6 would be a challenge.

The current 61- table is just not adequate for assessing the threat that a level 83 mob poses to a level 75 party (i.e. less than zero; but since a level 69 mob can potentially put quite a dent in a level 61 party, a +8 is still rated as "IT" and gives exp accordingly).


Of course, you can't force the players to go to higher level mobs to get good exp without also *giving* them some higher level mobs; the abundance of low-80s mobs in TAU areas is great for the current system, but with a fixed system merit parties would need mid-high 80s mobs to make decent exp. (This would imply that they actually need some defense, a real healer, etc. because they would be fighting mobs that could actually hurt them.)

Uleguerand demons come to mind - you can fight them with a NIN, but it has to be a NIN that knows what they're doing and pays some attention to hate control and damage mitigation, not one of the current hauby berserk monkeys. But currently they give a lot *less* exp per hour than massacring defenseless (and worse for game balance, attackless) flies - what if instead they gave *more*? Who doesn't think that pre-TAU meriting was better than what we have today in every way except exp/hr and *maybe* the number of available camps?

Once the base system is fixed, specific imbalances (Are imps too weak even for their level? Does Sanction give too many bonuses that Signet doesn't? Do longer respawn timers hurt the exp viability of non-TAU camps in general, or only when fighting weak mobs? Is Utsusemi still too strong when subbed?) can begin to be addressed.


Changes to pld and whm are probably not really necessary; they're quite useful in the right party setup fighting the right monsters. The real problem is that that party setup makes *much* less exp/hr than abusing weak, fast-respawning mobs worth way more exp than their power justifies. Reform the exp system and player behavior will follow it - including a revival of party styles that are well suited to fighting monsters that are actually dangerous.

Fighting weak monsters is cowardly and boring; it shouldn't be so highly rewarded. It's that disproportionate reward that creates bias against defensive jobs, which are specialized in fighting dangerous monsters.


P.S. At the highest levels it may be necessary to have a same-level monster no longer check "Even Match" - because it isn't. Even match implies that a player who goes into the fight at full strength (i.e. not already wounded or low MP) should have somewhere around 50/50 chance of winning or losing, which is actually about right for most job/monster combinations in the mid levels (and why you don't want to try to solo EMs without NPC unless you're a BST). A level 75 player is often significantly stronger than a level 75 monster, and in some cases so much stronger the monster has no real chance of even dealing major damage. Barring a global modification of monster stats as a function of level, the simplest fix to this would be for a level 75 player to have level 75 monsters check DC, or maybe even EP, and they have to go up to 77 or 78 to get a monster to check EM.

Any action/stat/trait in the game that isn't effected by armor is broken in my eyes. Healing Skill needs a purpose, just like Summoning Skill does/did.

good idea Vyuru, but i guess more shield+ items would be better (there is Tons of Evasion+ items that NIN can use and very few shield+ items for PLD) that'de boost shield blocks, thus making PLD a more tanking job.
Icemage suggested that PLDs can DD/Support heal now, but i really didn't level PLD to 69 to support heal, PLDs are to tank and DD not to support heal -.-;
yes they can, yes i can, but it isn't what i leveled PLD for. ever asked a BLM to support heal? a WAR to tank? a NIN to nuke? a RNG to melee? why would you ask a PLD to do something his job isn't designed for.
all PLD needs imo is to fix the damned Defense, i get to defense cap without using Defender -_-
as much i see NIN with evasion+40 equip, i'de like to see PLD with Shield+40 equip.

Any action/stat/trait in the game that isn't effected by armor is broken in my eyes. Healing Skill needs a purpose, just like Summoning Skill does/did.Undead nuking! XDever asked a BLM to support heal? a WAR to tank? a NIN to nuke? a RNG to melee? why would you ask a PLD to do something his job isn't designed for.1) Why not? 2) Why the heck not? 3) They can, with the proper setup at the right levels 4) No, but ranged attacks do the same thing as meleeing so it's mostly a moot point... Anyways, there's no part about the PLD job that implies it wasn't made for support DD'ing. We get the spells, the MP pool, the gear and the weapons (have you compared axes to bastard swords post-50? The great majority of bastard swords are actually much better than the competing axes...)all PLD needs imo is to fix the damned Defense, i get to defense cap without using Defender -_-If you know your defense is capped then pump up your Accuracy and Attack instead.as much i see NIN with evasion+40 equip, i'de like to see PLD with Shield+40 equip.Evasion =/= Evasion Skill. Evasion is to Defense as Evasion Skill is to Shield Skill, in theory. But, in any case...Gallant Leggings + Boxer's Mantle + Koenig Schaller + Shield Torque + Buckler Earring = 10 + 10 + 5 + 7 + 3 = +35 Shield Skill. Throw in HQ Gallant Leggings and it's 37.

Anyways, yeah, PLDs shouldn't be FORCED to play the support DD role in order to gain merit points, but I don't see why a PLD can't fill the role when needed. You make it sound like it's so terrible.

Back on topic, I agree. What we need is some changes to the EXP tables and some serious strengthening of Skillchains and MBs. There's nothing wrong with burn parties, really, but a traditional party that bothers to coordinate skillchains and magic bursts of the proper elements should do even better.

If you know your defense is capped then pump up your Accuracy and Attack instead.
sorry i said:
Icemage suggested that PLDs can DD/Support heal now, but i really didn't level PLD to 69 to support heal,
didn't mention not DDing at all, but support healing means i'm not tanking, right?

Why not ask a BLM to main heal?

Because it is, quite frankly, insulting to the BLM and they're not built for the task at all. Cure III is the best it gets for them, they have no access to the higher tier Regens (which most WHMs don't seem to know how to use anyway).

JP PTs in particular have a real nasty habit of settling for a BLM as main healier and I just don't get it. I just flat out leave a PT that takes a BLM to main heal because that's the sort of PT mechanic best left behind in Valkurm... and it wasn't a good PT mechanic there, either.

Sure, a BLM may be able to main heal in some situations, but most I encounted in the main healer role still want to NUKE and try to do so, resulting in deaths. They can't do both as fluidly as a RDM could.

Why ask WAR to tank?

Um... because they were built to from Day One? Because they get the defense gear to do so? In my honest opinion, if you don't have a DEF build and a melee build as a WAR, if you only use handaxes, you're just another WAR on the bandwagon. If you have strong backline support, there's absolutely no good reason for a WAR not to tank, period.

PLD as melee?

I guess its fine to do, but I think people become PLDs because they enjoy that style of tanking. People dont like their role being taken away from them by other jobs and that's something that always must be considered.

I hate EXPing with the "Zomgpullpullpull" BRD because my RNG and COR and do it too, hell, I think COR is better suited for it. THF, too.

And before you go back and say anything about WAR tanking going against the purpose of the job - there's a difference between design and player trends. Before RoZ, WAR was invited to tank and is still given gear to do so - its just a difference between what SE intends for the job and how the community wants to play it.

Fact: 3-4 melees sharing hate with /NIN or Third Eye from /SAM is more efficient than PLD main tanking. It gives less hate control, but not by much, and actually saves healers a ton of MP, which is hate control of another kind. Not only is it more efficient in the short term since you are expecting your DDs to lose some enmity sooner or later from being attacked, but healing magics are also more efficient; you now have 3-4 targets to put Regens on, and the likelihood that area effect cures like Curaga, Spring Water and Healing Breeze will be more efficient than the respective Cure spells goes way up.

No solution to PLD in XP will succeed unless it addresses this problem. This is primarily why I suggested that players be encouraged to form parties without a full 6 members as an alternative; PLD tanking is a LOT more attractive if your party is PLD RDM DRK DRG for instance.


Icemage

Because it is, quite frankly, insulting to the BLM and they're not built for the task at all. Cure III is the best it gets for them, they have no access to the higher tier Regens (which most WHMs don't seem to know how to use anyway).


I still don't see why that is bad, because the same is true for smn main healers who probably won't get to use their summons who also have damaging and beneficial blood pacts.

PLDs are to tank and DD not to support heal

I've been toying with the idea of a pld DD/backup healer ever since they got Refresh, reading this thread is what really got the idea fixed in my mind:

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/paladin/63484-pld-updates-beta-2006-current-day.html

Anyways, yeah, PLDs shouldn't be FORCED to play the support DD role in order to gain merit points, but I don't see why a PLD can't fill the role when needed.

I don't want to force players into a role they don't want, but pld seems to be built for it, or if not built for it at least it is easily within their ability to do it. The only hard part would be to keep your Gsword capped if that's what you want to use, if a pld wasn't resting all the time and losing TP I'm sure even a sword+shield combo would work well enough for backup DD, Vorpal Blade is a pretty nifty WS.

I like the idea that Healing Magic should have more of an impact on healing, but I don't like the resists for curing, that would just kill smn as a main healer, a role that they are shoved into.

because instead of boosting all your melee, the rdm is debuffing every mob equivalently.

I'm all for giving rdm more enfeebles, but don't they already have enfeebles that are equivilant to brd songs?

Gravity gives -movement rate and -evasion, so that's +acc for melees
Blind reduces accuracy, kind of like evasion+
Dia I/II gives -def, a slight +att boost for melee
Slow gives, well Slow, so in relation to the mob it's like giving the melees Haste.
Paraylze is like giving melees a Killer trait to intimadate the mob.

The only problem with enfeebles is that they are restricted to the mob, once the mob dies you have to cast them all over again. In TP/fast killing parties the mob normally doesn't live long enough to make it worthwhile to enfeeble it. Toss in lazy rdm to that, and I don't think I have seen ANY rdm enfeeble from levels 60-67. This includes parties that I have taken to the Boyahada Tree for crabs/crawlers, Bibiki Bay for birds/gobs/dhalmels, and ToAU for mixed TP burn/standard parties.

Emurei's idea is interesting, but I think it wouldn't be good when you consider all of the higher level people farming/leveling npcs/doing whatever. Just thinking about the Lesser Colibri camps, there are a ton of lvl 75s killing all Lesser Colibri outside the exits to Al Zhabi, it sounds like that would kill exp for lower levels.

There are alot of zones where this would effect the exp, Garliage, Valkurm, Crawler's Nest, Kuftal, probably others as well. I think it would definatly promote alternate exp campsites, but I also think people could be real asses about it if they wanted to as well.

I like Karinya's and Icemage's ideas the best. I would love to be able to do smaller parties, alot of times when I want to exp there just aren't that many people online and you can't make a full party, and I think your ideas would really help with that.

PLD tanking is a LOT more attractive if your party is PLD RDM DRK DRG for instance.


Toss in a drk/brd or something and you could even remove the rdm from the party, not that I don't like rdm, it's just they are hard to find sometimes, as are bards.

Fact: 3-4 melees sharing hate with /NIN or Third Eye from /SAM is more efficient than PLD main tanking. It gives less hate control, but not by much, and actually saves healers a ton of MP, which is hate control of another kind. Not only is it more efficient in the short term since you are expecting your DDs to lose some enmity sooner or later from being attacked, but healing magics are also more efficient; you now have 3-4 targets to put Regens on, and the likelihood that area effect cures like Curaga, Spring Water and Healing Breeze will be more efficient than the respective Cure spells goes way up.

Hyperbole is now fact?

People make much ado about nothing in regards to this myth that you've become some kind of MP sponge if you don't sub /NIN or even /SAM for every PT now. Its not the case at all.

For anyjob to really, really tank people have to watch their hate. They gotta know where that hate line is and when it isn't appropriate to cross it.

Problem is, people don't, they just spam WS and expect /NIN to save them. It won't save you from AOE mobs, it won't save you when you've created too large of a hate spike. When you cross the hate line, you HAVE become the MP sponge, you never become one for not subbing /NIN.

The whole point to tanking, the REAL definition, is for one to pull the most enmity and take the hits so others don't have to - and PLD is king there. Problem is these days, melees will not let any tanks do that. We can rationalize how it is efficent for EXP per hour to sub /NIN and spam WS, but stop pretending that's hate control and MP management.

SE cannot fix the playerbases selfish desire to be the guy that kills the monster and get as much EXP per hour as they can. However, they can scale jobs down so various roles can once again retain their intended functions. People just don't like to admit when a little nerfing is needed, instead, they want other jobs to "catch up."

That's not fixing the game folks, that's just breaking it further. There's a difference between game design and the pissing contest that ensues in the community. You should accept there are times you need to adapt your style of play for the situation instead of being selfish and constantly striving for the EXP bottom line.

I still don't see why that is bad, because the same is true for smn main healers who probably won't get to use their summons who also have damaging and beneficial blood pacts.

Because they don't want to? WAR might be able to tank, but when you invite him to tank without telling him that's what you need, you're an ass for it. They have the right to bail. Same goes for assuming a SMN, RDM or BLM will main heal just because you invited them.

I'm quite upfront about how I want to play my jobs, if you invite my COR and expect me to sub /WHM just because BRDs do, prepare to get an earful. Not to mention this is a support class I pay out the nose to play per level unlike my RDM and BRD counter parts. 46 gil per sleep and dispel, 90 gil a shot. I'm just a shrewd with RNG and that was a lot harder to level.

I know how and when to apply /WHM, but I'll decide what hows and whens I'll be participating in, everyone has that right. But again, what players want, what's ideal and what SE intends for a job are all different things.

Problem is, people don't, they just spam WS and expect /NIN to save them. It won't save you from AOE mobs, it won't save you when you've created too large of a hate spike. When you cross the hate line, you HAVE become the MP sponge, you never become one for not subbing /NIN.

The whole point to tanking, the REAL definition, is for one to pull the most enmity and take the hits so others don't have to - and PLD is king there. Problem is these days, melees will not let any tanks do that. We can rationalize how it is efficent for EXP per hour to sub /NIN and spam WS, but stop pretending that's hate control and MP management.

The advantage of this /NIN is that all DD can go all out without worrying about Emnity, 6 shadows (9 if the DD knows how to play with timers) are more than enough for another DD to take hate from you. What matters in a TP burn is to kill mobs fast, killing mobs fast means using less mp per kill and less downtime, plus more xp/hr.

So until PLD (or any tank for that matter) has the ability of keeping himself at the top of the hate list without having to ask the DD to hold back in their attacks then DD/NIN will be the most efficient way of doing things.

As a PLD I find it really hard to keep hate from a good DD going all out. Granted, I can keep hate from Hundred Fists and others but to do that I gotta use many hate generating abilities that are in a really long recast timer.

Which means next fight I'll be only using Flash and Voke to keep hate. And if you consider the party is fighting at least 5 mobs in the time Sentinel, Warcry and Rampart cool down then you can see why even a PLD has troubles keeping hate.

Which causes DDs to have to hold back, which makes fights last longer, which makes me as a PLD tank take more damage, which causes me and the main healer to use more MP, which causes XP to slow down, which causes /NIN to be the preferred sub. >.<

The advantage of this /NIN is that all DD can go all out without worrying about Emnity, 6 shadows (9 if the DD knows how to play with timers) are more than enough for another DD to take hate from you. What matters in a TP burn is to kill mobs fast, killing mobs fast means using less mp per kill and less downtime, plus more xp/hr

...blah, yadda, yarkitty, blah, yadda...

Which causes DDs to have to hold back, which makes fights last longer, which makes me as a PLD tank take more damage, which causes me and the main healer to use more MP, which causes XP to slow down, which causes /NIN to be the preferred sub. >.<

I think its just my perspective that every PT I join is an opportunity to learn more about my job and how to play it more effectively. I don't care about my EXP per hour as much as I do learning to function with the full range of jobs in this game.

I've always looked at the jobs that way, I won't refuse a PLD tank in most cases. I'll PT with PUP, DRG, BST or whatever other job this community wants to treat like a bastard stepchild.

Each job has a purpose.
Each job has a role an intended function.
And why refuse a good player EXP just because you can get more elsewhere?

I think its hypocritical and pathetic that people won't invite BLM or PLD to merit these days, yet come crying to them when they need Fafnir tanked or a CoP manaburned.

Support your friends, support your LS members. Fuck the bottom line and just have fun.

I think if White mages had a job trait that reduced the cost of spells every couple of levels, and had alittle more offensive holy elemental magic, it might even things out~ Or a larger mana pool, but then the mana pool would somewhat steal the summoners thunder.

Hyperbole is now fact?

People make much ado about nothing in regards to this myth that you've become some kind of MP sponge if you don't sub /NIN or even /SAM for every PT now. Its not the case at all.
It's not hyperbole. It is hard, chilling reality. Pulling temporary hate with Utsusemi or Third Eye up results in no cost the the party's MP reserves. Pulling temporary hate without either hurts the party's offensive output (Defender, Super Jump, whatever), or dips into MP to heal the person that drew hate.

For any job to really, really tank people have to watch their hate. They gotta know where that hate line is and when it isn't appropriate to cross it.
...and the fact that people DO have to hold back in a traditional party limits the party's output. The reason TP burns and manaburns and other variations thereof work so well is that no one is holding back; you're literally killing things as fast as humanly possible.

Problem is, people don't, they just spam WS and expect /NIN to save them.
Hate to break it to you, but it works.

It won't save you from AOE mobs, it won't save you when you've created too large of a hate spike. When you cross the hate line, you HAVE become the MP sponge, you never become one for not subbing /NIN.
By definition everyone in a TP-burn party is crossing the hate line constantly. By the same token, a job combination without Utsusemi or Third Eye will be much worse off than one with after drawing hate.

As for AoE mobs, most people don't burn those specifically because it negates much of the defensive boosts of having shadows/third eye.

The whole point to tanking, the REAL definition, is for one to pull the most enmity and take the hits so others don't have to - and PLD is king there. Problem is these days, melees will not let any tanks do that. We can rationalize how it is efficent for EXP per hour to sub /NIN and spam WS, but stop pretending that's hate control and MP management.
It's not hate control, it IS MP management. I spend way less MP per battle keeping a TP-burn party alive than I do with a PLD tank. And the XP per hour IS better. I've been averaging 15K per hour lately at level 75 while playing RDM in merit parties. There's no way I can top 10K per hour with a traditional XP party even at 75. Again, not a rationalization. These are real numbers.

SE cannot fix the playerbases selfish desire to be the guy that kills the monster and get as much EXP per hour as they can. However, they can scale jobs down so various roles can once again retain their intended functions. People just don't like to admit when a little nerfing is needed, instead, they want other jobs to "catch up."
Are you suggesting that everything go back to the way things were, with PLD, NIN and BLMs as kings of XP parties? Much as I'm not terribly fond of burn parties, that doesn't mean I can't stare reality in the face and understand that TP burns and mana burns work, and that they really are more efficient than a standard party.

That's not fixing the game folks, that's just breaking it further. There's a difference between game design and the pissing contest that ensues in the community. You should accept there are times you need to adapt your style of play for the situation instead of being selfish and constantly striving for the EXP bottom line.

Because they don't want to? WAR might be able to tank, but when you invite him to tank without telling him that's what you need, you're an ass for it. They have the right to bail. Same goes for assuming a SMN, RDM or BLM will main heal just because you invited them.

I'm quite upfront about how I want to play my jobs, if you invite my COR and expect me to sub /WHM just because BRDs do, prepare to get an earful. Not to mention this is a support class I pay out the nose to play per level unlike my RDM and BRD counter parts. 46 gil per sleep and dispel, 90 gil a shot. I'm just a shrewd with RNG and that was a lot harder to level.
OK, so you're saying that a level 70 Paladin should automatically and without thought refuse to DD/heal simply because you personally expect him to tank? Never mind that he'll probably get more XP that way, and that traditional XP party invites are rare as diamonds these days

What happened to "needing to adapt your style of play"?

I know how and when to apply /WHM, but I'll decide what hows and whens I'll be participating in, everyone has that right. But again, what players want, what's ideal and what SE intends for a job are all different things.
If people really want to refuse to do something, that's fine. But the logic does not follow that just because some people don't want to play a job a certain way, it doesn't mean it isn't going to be the most effective use of that job. Look at the evolution of Ninja for instance - how many people objected to Ninja tanks at the beginning? Sure, I'm sure there were plenty of people who said : "Wow, shihei are expensive and rare, I'm not going to do that". Not even Square-Enix wanted it to happen. But reality eventually won out and people came to understand that Ninjas can in fact tank quite capably, and very efficiently.

Bottom line: If you want to be a rebel and do your own thing, so be it. But evaluate performance with an unbiased eye; just because no one else is doing things a certain way doesnt mean it's not effective - and just because it's something you want to do doesn't mean it is the most effective way either.


Icemage

You know what, I subscribe to the PLD backup tank/backup healer/DD thing, actually, I've partied like that at a number of levels... sometimes letting other PLD/WARs tank in the 50s, sometimes NIN/WARs in the 60s, duo with other PLD/NIN holding hate.

(While it doesn't have much to do with EXP, I know that PLD/NIN can produce enough hate to keep up with a NIN/WAR on Ultima and Omega PM6-4[Just giving this info to those a bit skeptical], because I did that just last night. I accidently pulled hate a few times, last of which on Omega I got hit with a Pile Pitch ; ;)

It works, plain and simple. It might hurt someone's pride to play the job this way, but sorry... it's just effective. If you're with another PLD and you have a WHM, get a flash order going, if you're with a NIN or WAR, flash when they start casting Ichi, etc. You're a great support to any tank. You bring shadows to the table EVEN when you don't have hate. <3 Cover.

When you pull hate you have shadows possibly (depending on how/when you pulled hate) and even if you don't you have Sentinel. You have Rampart for -gas. Come on, PLD fills this role perfectly. Heck, I didn't even mention yet that truth be told, we're not that far behind most DDs in terms of damage at most levels IF geared for it. A pimped out 75PLD/NIN can keep up with almost anyone. (I'm talking Justice/Joy, Homam&Heca, Sea torque, WS gorget Speed/Swift belt... the works).

Please don't get me wrong here, I love bloodtanking my share of enemies as PLD in our white armor... it's fun. But with the current state of things, it's not as effective as having two gearsets and your NIN sub available. Things are changing, people are finally finding other roles PLD can fill.

Are you up to the task of filling them?

Icemage: What you are overlooking is that those tactics only work when the monster is too weak to do anything about them. Monsters that weak shouldn't be giving good exp in the first place, but they are because the exp table is 14 levels out of date for 75 PTs.

As soon as you fight something that *can* get through subbed utsusemi and *hurts* when it does, then you need a real tank or you have real problems and possibly deaths.

That's why, IMO, the primary problem is that too much exp is awarded for fighting monsters that can't hit back.

Icemage: What you are overlooking is that those tactics only work when the monster is too weak to do anything about them. Monsters that weak shouldn't be giving good exp in the first place, but they are because the exp table is 14 levels out of date for 75 PTs.
Maybe, maybe not. I've gotten numbers close to 15K/hr out of parties in the low-mid 60s in TP burns as well. It's not just restricted to level 75 merit parties.

As soon as you fight something that *can* get through subbed utsusemi and *hurts* when it does, then you need a real tank or you have real problems and possibly deaths.
Yes, but the observed result is that when every melee in the party can Utsusemi/Third Eye/Zephyr Mantle, the number of actual hits that get through is very low; lower than the damage reduction offered by even a fully pimped DEF tank like a Paladin.

That's why, IMO, the primary problem is that too much exp is awarded for fighting monsters that can't hit back.
I'm not saying this isn't also a problem. But the issue with PLDs (and to a lesser extent, WHMs) has just as much to do with the way parties function, and not just the imbalance in monster difficulty or XP tables.


Icemage

...blah, yadda, yarkitty, blah, yadda...

huh? o.O

I think its just my perspective that every PT I join is an opportunity to learn more about my job and how to play it more effectively. I don't care about my EXP per hour as much as I do learning to function with the full range of jobs in this game.

I've always looked at the jobs that way, I won't refuse a PLD tank in most cases. I'll PT with PUP, DRG, BST or whatever other job this community wants to treat like a bastard stepchild.

Each job has a purpose.
Each job has a role an intended function.
And why refuse a good player EXP just because you can get more elsewhere?

I think its hypocritical and pathetic that people won't invite BLM or PLD to merit these days, yet come crying to them when they need Fafnir tanked or a CoP manaburned.

Support your friends, support your LS members. Fuck the bottom line and just have fun.

What does all that have to do with the usefulness and effectiveness of /NIN xp strategies?

I don't refuse parties with regular and non-burn setups either but that doesn't mean I can't understand why they are preferred.

There's a reason why experienced players have said time and again why TP-burn is so good. And until SE changes the way XP is calculated then killing as many T-VT mobs as you can as fast as possible will remain as the preferred way to make xp.

For that /NIN is the way to go.

I've tanked as a PLD/NIN with a NIN and a THF bouncing hate between us, it was major fun and it allowed me to tank in a burn party (no backup healing or anything).

I would've never been able to do that as /WAR, period.

Hmm, OK. Then there are two main problems: too much exp for weak mobs, and offensive jobs/offensively geared NINs avoiding too much damage with Utsu/3Eye. (Zephyr Mantle has a long cast and a longer recast, as well as costing MP, so I don't put it in the same category; anyway, you can't get it by subbing so its impact is limited. It may need reexamination after other problems are fixed, though.)

Basically, I think that a party should not be able to so completely neglect its defense without getting hit for it. But right now they can. All you need is a few shihei and you can wear all the -Eva, -DEF, etc. gear you want, not worry about your hate and still take very little damage. That upsets the basic party dynamic (you want hate to stay on the tank because they're specialized in reducing the damage they take) and causes all sorts of balance problems.

Whether NIN should need to pay attention to their Eva to tank in exp is open to debate - but when every DD can become nearly invulnerable without paying any attention to their def or eva, something is very wrong.

More nerfs to subbed Utsusemi are the obvious first step - maybe only 2 shadows, maybe allowing monsters a chance to see through the shadows based on your ninjutsu skill (which would make it rare for NINs and pretty common for /NINs), maybe something else. Or possibly to all Utsusemi - if the intent is to force tanking NINs to wear more tanking gear and less DD. (This would in turn make hate less secure, demanding more caution from DDs in party and/or a THF. These costs of having a NIN tank balance out the existing costs of a PLD tank - need a refresher for the PLD, more healing, the PLD doesn't do much damage, etc.)

Ironically considering the start of this thread, I don't think PLD or WHM needs the adjustment. Those jobs are balanced already. It's certain other combinations that are way off the curve.

What if Shadows contributed to DDing and detrimented from Tanking?

The way it would work is, all of the shadows get an attack, like the NIN or /NIN themselves (obviously a lesser effect to the /NINs, based on Ninjutsu skill). Combined with Dual-Wield, you got a machine on automatic fire! Downside? For this gain of Materially damaging your opponent, each shadow will give the real Ninja a relative amount of damage based on the damage that the shadow takes when the shadow is hit (it will still then disappear).

Thousands will cry in outrage at first, but two possible solutions to the /NIN thing is Karinya's above, making it a Blink effect based upon your Ninjutsu, or by making Copy Images offensive (again, based on your Ninjutsu). Because Ninja was pretty much meant for DD, this seems like a viable, if not radical solution.

Oh, and it will make more Meriters want to use Sange, since it will get rid of the shadows without damage to the Ninja, while damaging a mob.

My two cents on the whole Shadow Clone issue. Not that it is the only problem, heck, its far from being the only problem! But, I just wanted to say something about it. Ninjas are more geared towards DD, with only one set of spells that allow them to be tha OMGTANKZORZ that can out-tank a Paladin, even with minimal HP. There are potentially THOUSANDS of other solutions, but this is only one of them.

. . . shutting my mouth now ; ; .

All that "adjusting" Utsusemi and xp gained from T-VT mobs is gonna acomplish is making people quit the game.

Want to make things better? Then IT mobs should give a lot more XP to make them worth killing (IT mobs require SC tactics which would also have a positive impact on regular setup kinda jobs).

That and PLD's crappy defense and vit has to start meaning something, depending so much on Shields and long recast Job Abilities to mitigate damage to acceptable levels is, well, unaccepatable.

SE has to boost regular party setups so they can catch up, not destroy the way of xping that allowed many DD that used to spend days looking for party to get some of the XP mages have enjoyed for so long.

What if Shadows contributed to DDing and detrimented from Tanking?

The way it would work is, all of the shadows get an attack, like the NIN or /NIN themselves (obviously a lesser effect to the /NINs, based on Ninjutsu skill). Combined with Dual-Wield, you got a machine on automatic fire! Downside? For this gain of Materially damaging your opponent, each shadow will give the real Ninja a relative amount of damage based on the damage that the shadow takes when the shadow is hit (it will still then disappear).

Thousands will cry in outrage at first, but two possible solutions to the /NIN thing is Karinya's above, making it a Blink effect based upon your Ninjutsu, or by making Copy Images offensive (again, based on your Ninjutsu). Because Ninja was pretty much meant for DD, this seems like a viable solution.

Oh, and it will make more Meriters want to use Sange, since it will get rid of the shadows without damage to the Ninja, while damaging a mob.

My two cents on the whole Shadow Clone issue.
NIN/WAR with berserk and some decent gear can out DMG any other melee while tanking,specially in the new areas's gimp mobs.
Icemage's party setups suggestion seems good, but again that's at Level75 and the setup itself makes WHM useless.
maybe Haste2 can stop RDMs from replacing WHM for Hasting-healing (oh and the /NIN /SAM thing, idk what are the mages for if they are hasting only >.>;;)
or reduce Haste1's potency, and give WHMs Haste1,2?
less costy healing spells, maybe a similer trait to BLM's Conserve-MP.

maybe allowing monsters a chance to see through the shadows based on your ninjutsu skill
or maybe Sound/True sight agro should be able to see through utsusimi? as much there is mobs PLD can't tank, why there isn't a mob NIN (or /NIN) can't tank?

Maybe, maybe not. I've gotten numbers close to 15K/hr out of parties in the low-mid 60s in TP burns as well. It's not just restricted to level 75 merit parties.
On real mobs or on lesser colibri? When you have a mob that not only has incredibly low defense and hp but also hits weakly *and* 1/3 of its TP moves do absolutely nothing and another 1/3 do no damage but only cause minor annoyance... well, it's obvious that balance is going to go out the window. Honestly, I don't know what they were thinking when they made those things, unless it was "people think our game is too hard, we better make it 100x easier to get more subscribers".
I'm not saying this isn't also a problem. But the issue with PLDs (and to a lesser extent, WHMs) has just as much to do with the way parties function, and not just the imbalance in monster difficulty or XP tables.

True. Specifically, the way these parties function is to essentially ignore their defense and hate control completely, focus 100% on doing as much damage as possible... and not get hit anyway. That's just insane - it shouldn't be possible. It needs to be fixed and it needs to be fixed soon.

I'm not saying that every party should need a PLD and WHM to make any experience at all. I'm open to reviving the WAR tank, or making it possible for SAM/WAR to tank with Seigan - and as I previously mentioned, I don't object to DD-heavy parties making experience *similar to other party setups*. But every party should need to have *some* players working on defense, or they should take a lot of damage for neglecting it (leading to downtime and an overall kill and exp rate not that different from a normal PT). Avoiding damage shouldn't be free. And the monsters where you can get away with the least attention to your defense should be the monsters who themselves have the most defense (e.g. crabs). Monsters with low defense and hp should have the *most* dangerous attacks. Before TAU, this pattern was almost always borne out - vulnerable monsters like spiders, scorpions and tonberries have attacks so dangerous, most parties are afraid to even get near them. Coeurls have defense, evasion and HP similar to colibris, but the difference between the dangerousness of their attacks is night and day. The overpoweredness of Utsusemi - allowing highly offensive-oriented job combinations and gear setups to avoid almost all damage at basically no cost - greatly exacerbates the problem.


The addition of monsters that are very vulnerable *and* can't attack worth a damn is very, very bad for the game - now it's raining exp and only some jobs have bowls. The fact that it's some of the same jobs that used to have trouble getting parties - not because they were ineffective the way some jobs are now, but simply because there were too many players playing them - only increases the bitter divisions this has caused in the playerbase.

If the balance problems of TAU are not fixed, they will destroy the game in a way the oversupply of DDs never could. Zero was never the ideal number of DDs to have in your party - it IS the ideal number of tanks and healers to have in your party now, and there's a big difference between 30 people competing for 10 slots and 10 people competing for 0 slots.

All that "adjusting" Utsusemi and xp gained from T-VT mobs is gonna acomplish is making people quit the game.
Oh yeah, I forgot to add: if they're only in the game to make 15k/hr on mobs that don't fight back and be invulnerable while ignoring their defense, why do we want them to not quit? Let them go find something even easier to play, like tic-tac-toe. Almost all the players that would quit if balance was restored to pre-TAU levels would be no loss to the FFXI community. And the servers are grossly overcrowded anyway.
Want to make things better? Then IT mobs should give a lot more XP to make them worth killing (IT mobs require SC tactics which would also have a positive impact on regular setup kinda jobs).
"A lot more XP" is a relative term. It can be achieved in two ways and frankly I don't think making merits easy to get is necessarily an improvement. I wouldn't mind if high level exp rates stabilized at, say, 10k/hr, but the important thing is to get exp rate parity between different types of PT setups, no matter what absolute level of exp it is at.
SE has to boost regular party setups so they can catch up, not destroy the way of xping that allowed many DD that used to spend days looking for party to get some of the XP mages have enjoyed for so long.
Gee, mages have been making 15-20k/hr? I must have missed that. Pre-TAU manaburns were lucky to make half that - and that's if nobody died, did you know manaburns are very risky compared to normal PT setups *or* TP burn?

And btw, DD still spend days looking for party, if they're not level 73 yet. The uselessness of defensive jobs at high levels has apparently led to *even fewer* people trying to level them up - hard to blame them, what's going to be there when they get there - and as a result it's even harder to form an exp, as opposed to merit, pt than it ever was before. (Although the increased relative attractiveness of meriting may play a part too.) So TAU has not only introduced new problems, but failed to solve the old ones.

One solution?

Nerf the Utsusemi recipe itself, make it so expensive to make that it prohibits the benefits of /nin. Instead of 33NQ and HQs of 66 and 99, make it so that the NQ synth is 12, HQ1 is 24, HQ3 is 33 or 36, whichever you prefer, while keeping the ingredients per synth constant.

I don't really like this, since I am more or less against any nerfing of jobs, but yeah, it kinda sucks that everything is /nin now. I think it is more than fair to let people play the way they want to, but this is approaching the scale of the whole ranger domination, and that is unacceptable to me.

And you have to admit, it might be different between parties, but being on the conservative side, I'd say 70% of the time, TP burn parties were primarily warriors, sometimes bsts, fewer times drk/nin with 2x axes, but most of the time it's always 3x warriors in the party. More often than not, TP burns are made up of people who can use Rampage. Maybe Rampage could use a little tweaking, since that is ALL they ever use, maybe reduces the effectiveness of Dual Wield and Utsusemi while subbed, but the /nin is just... Way too much now.

Nerfing the cost of making of Utsusemi does nothing except put more money in the pockets of gilsellers. I'm a level 96 Woodworker, and as things stand, it makes no sense for me to spend time making shihei. It simply is not profitable enough for the time spent (bearing in mind that I can make all the ingredients myself, from fishing for materials to make black ink, making the black ink, making my own bast parchment, and of course making the shihei itself). It's not that it isn't mildly profitable... it's just mind-numbingly tedious. Making me do three times the number of synths to achieve the same quantity is not going to make me more likely to want to make them... and in any case will not affect how those tools are used in a party.

No. The correct thing to do is make Utsusemi less reliable when subbed. Make it 2 shadows for Ichi, the same way Ni gives 3 when subbed. That might help. Or keep the shadow count, but make your chance to evade a hit with shadows not guaranteed when using Ninja as a subjob - maybe it behaves like Blink instead. That would help, too.

That would force TP burn parties to slow down because as it is you need a pretty skilled and decked out RDM to support a full-on TP burn party. Increase the MP usage due to more damage being taken, and TP burns will be forced to add more recovery, which reduces their overall attack power and reduces their kill speed.


Icemage

Oh yeah, I forgot to add: if they're only in the game to make 15k/hr on mobs that don't fight back and be invulnerable while ignoring their defense, why do we want them to not quit? Let them go find something even easier to play, like tic-tac-toe. Almost all the players that would quit if balance was restored to pre-TAU levels would be no loss to the FFXI community. And the servers are grossly overcrowded anyway.

Uh huh, are you gonna pay for the people who quits the game, say 1000 people quit, will you be ok with SE raising the monthly fee to compensate for them?

Also, those players have the same right as you do to play the game in any way they want, if they want to make merits fast so they can do other stuff with those merits then it's their choice.

You can't force your concept of "what an xp party should be" on others, and you are in no position to decide who should be playing and who shouldn't.

"A lot more XP" is a relative term. It can be achieved in two ways and frankly I don't think making merits easy to get is necessarily an improvement. I wouldn't mind if high level exp rates stabilized at, say, 10k/hr, but the important thing is to get exp rate parity between different types of PT setups, no matter what absolute level of exp it is at.

If you want to spend 50% more time getting the same amount of merits it is your choice, but don't expect many players to follow you. Merits are already a huge time sink, specially if you consider you can get so many jobs to 75.

(Edit > And not only merits, but XPing in general.)

So, unless you are planning on keep playing for the next 10 years (or have enough time to play more than 8 hours a day) then there's nothing wrong with getting 15k xp an hour.

Heck, it should be 20k xp/hr if you ask me.

Gee, mages have been making 15-20k/hr? I must have missed that. Pre-TAU manaburns were lucky to make half that - and that's if nobody died, did you know manaburns are very risky compared to normal PT setups *or* TP burn?

If you consider the amount of time most DDs used to spend looking for party then mages were making much more xp than them in the same amount of time.

If you are jealous of the amount of xp a TP burn can make then I guess you were from the same people who was asking for the RNG nerf and others. Also, risk has always been a matter of player skill more than anything, in all the Manaburns I did as a RDM no one ever died, (well, I think maybe just me that I remember, on a very unfortunate DC).

And btw, DD still spend days looking for party, if they're not level 73 yet. The uselessness of defensive jobs at high levels has apparently led to *even fewer* people trying to level them up - hard to blame them, what's going to be there when they get there - and as a result it's even harder to form an exp, as opposed to merit, pt than it ever was before. (Although the increased relative attractiveness of meriting may play a part too.) So TAU has not only introduced new problems, but failed to solve the old ones.

Melee heavy parties start at lvl 50+ and I haven't seen as many DD looking for a party as it was before Aht Urgan, not even close. So either there are less players going DD or DDs are getting more parties.

And like I said before, PLD and their defense/emnity need some kind of adjustment, Shield, Sentinel and Rampart help a little bit but the problem is with damage taken over time (and MP wasted because of it) so 5 minute recast abilities are too slow to help that.

And unless you wanna settle for 8k or less xp/hr then something has to change about it.

In the past S-E introduced sushi when there is an issue for the high-priced acc+ gear during the meat era. Maybe S-E should introduce new types of food for PLD and WHM that is suitable in burn parties?

In my last party, I was trying Black Curry and Sis Kebai for my PLD for the 1st time, instead of Taco. Black Curry works out very well to me. However, I feel that the current food in the game still lacking for PLD.

IMHO, the current food is too "one-sided" for PLD tank:
1. Defensive food --- Lack of attack and accuracy for PLD tank in party.
2. Sushi --- DoT is very nice, but still lack a bit of defend. Without Defender, the damage taken is still random, the mob can either hit "okay" damage, or sometimes can hit very hard. If Defender is used, it kills the DoT.
3. Attack food --- Lacks accuracy. Without Defender, damage taken is not consistent. With Defender, it is like eatting Defensive food.

Black Curry is nice because it has DEF+ % (a bit lower) and ACC +5. However, if there is other food that can give more ACC+ and some DEF+ at the same time, that should be great for PLD. I wish there is a food has the effect like Accuracy +10, Defense +15%, Enmity+3.

"Settle for" 8k? You haven't been playing long, have you?

One year ago - just one year - 8k/hr was mindblowingly awesome exp that few parties could even dream of. HALF that much was pretty decent. Now you talk in a disgusted tone of "settling for" 8k/hr as if it was something that only subjobless n00bs would make.

That, right there, is what I'm talking about. Player expectations for exp have become not just inflated, but RIDICULOUSLY inflated. As long as you don't have a tank, because they're just useless dead weight that will drag your exp down to 10k/hr or (gasp!) even lower.

Let's be clear here: tripling parties' exp rates is not, in itself, what I object to. If exp rates were tripled *across the board* that would be fine. It's the fact that such insane exp is only available to certain party setups - that systematically exclude certain jobs - and using an extremely boring, braindead playstyle with no team tactics whatsoever that I object to.

I would love to get 15-20k/hr fighting demons in Uleguerand Range. But no. If you want that exp rate you have to get all WAR/NINs and kill a fly every 10 seconds. Other party setups, fighting monsters that are actually fun and challenging to fight, get left in the dust.

I'm still waiting to hear what's wrong with Qutrub. >.> I gotta admit, I really enjoy exping off of weak stuff from the standpoint that my numbers look good. I HATE missing and I'm NOT gonna give in to the +40 acc + sushi tards. I like how your assorted builds really show what they're capable of in those settings. Having a setting like that, but also having the mob be dangerous enough to warrant Plds or Whms (either, both, whatever). Of course, such a mob would be hell to hold hate against when the melee are doing even more inflated numbers. But then, the fact that SCs do double normal damage vastly increases the amount of hate given from Trick Attacking a SC closer onto a tank. Hello party tactics? The game needs another dimension I think. Trick attack and Skill Chain/MBs is really all we have.

"Settle for" 8k? You haven't been playing long, have you?

One year ago - just one year - 8k/hr was mindblowingly awesome exp that few parties could even dream of. HALF that much was pretty decent. Now you talk in a disgusted tone of "settling for" 8k/hr as if it was something that only subjobless n00bs would make.

You say I haven't been playing for long, I say you are still playing in the past.

One year ago there were less things to do, less armor, less merit options, less everything.

The same way the game has seen a major increase in content (What? About 50% or more content now with Aht Urgan than before?), the same way experience and other aspects of the game have to speep up.

With everything that there's to do right now you need to get xp faster (among other things) or you wont be able to see it all. Of course this is from the perspective of someone who only has a few hours a day to play and around 10 hours saturday and sunday together.

So, if you have more than 6 hours a day to play then maybe the increase in content wont affect you since you have time to see it all, but for me getting 8k and hour (today, not a year ago) just isn't enough.

I would like having more options to party and make those amounts of xp with different setups (that's what I was talking about), and that's exactly why I don't think pulling players back to the "10k xp/hr max" days is the solution.

But instead SE has to boost regular party setups so they can make the same amounts of xp.

One year ago - just one year - 8k/hr was mindblowingly awesome exp

More like two years ago, maybe even three.

no, 1 year ago was when the rad thing was hearing about these sky parties pulling chain 15. It wasn't 'til just before AU came out that all the different variations started showing up, with all the timing mapped out precisely.

Regardless, that's not important. Are you not seeing the heart of what's wrong that Karinya's pointing out? I don't give a shit if we get 3k/hour or 30k/hour -- as long as I have a reason to Skillchain. As long as multiple layouts work. I think tp burns should be acceptable -- they shouldn't get 3x the amount of exp.

Regardless, that's not important. Are you not seeing the heart of what's wrong that Karinya's pointing out? I don't give a shit if we get 3k/hour or 30k/hour -- as long as I have a reason to Skillchain. As long as multiple layouts work. I think tp burns should be acceptable -- they shouldn't get 3x the amount of exp.
That 3x is not an exaggeration. I was in an LS merit party last night in Bhaflau Thickets and we clocked in 51,000 XP in 2.6 hours - and most of us weren't really "pimped out" on the jobs we were playing.

Amusing part about this: There was a WHM in our party. Setup was NIN/WAR MNK/NIN MNK/NIN BRD/NIN RDM/WHM WHM/BLM. Still managed to make almost 20K per hour. If that's not a sign of the approaching Apocalypse, I'm not sure what is... :P


Icemage

Amusing part about this: There was a WHM in our party. Setup was NIN/WAR MNK/NIN MNK/NIN BRD/NIN RDM/WHM WHM/BLM. Still managed to make almost 20K per hour. If that's not a sign of the approaching Apocalypse, I'm not sure what is... :P

That setup has always been the most effective, most JP I've party with use it because it's the most efficient.

Contrary to what people thinks having 4 DD and BRD+RDM only slows things down because the RDM gets overloaded with work and the BRD has to waste time backup sleeping.

With the RDM+BRD+WHM setup the RDM can focus on sleeping and buffing/debuffing while the WHM keeps the party alive, then BRDs can pull all they want without having to worry about staying by the party sleeping mobs. So you have an endless supply of mobs lined up and you don't waste any time between kills.

Even if kills themselves are a bit slower you compensate it with the reduction in downtime between mobs.

And that's why whenever I read about NA WHMs not being able to get invites for Burn parties I just lol.

Im my observations, with the way TP burns been going these days, anythings is completely up in the air now in what you can or can't do for exp. Merriting whm, I have gotten away with being able to dd as whm/drg (base mnd is 1 point less than /blm and str is about 2 points higher than /nin). On trolls, I've been able to keep up with the non /nin dds in dmg and a little slower on tp gain due to balancing out dd gear and keeping enough mnd on for cures to not be affected. We had a pld tank which was able to keep hate off rng, sam and war. Also I've been casting flash on the mob to help with pld take less when his wore and wasn't ready to cast again. Rdm was easily able to do enfeebles, refresh and had plenty of mp to spare to nuke, and rarely been back up healing thanks to the pld keeping hate and taking less dmg.
Now, on thf, Thf/war been what I've used in thickets. Considering i'm pulling most of the time, the kill rate is higher and dmg taken is low as /nin. If you want things to die faster use SC, a thf with pld or sam can make some sweet darkness or light. And thats using traditional setups too there.
RDM, its a bit iffy for me. Majority of the parties where lesser colibri's. If i'm lucky on /blm or /smn, my enfeebles land and stick for most of the fight and before the DDs get it down to 50%. /war, just been joining in for fusion SC to mb with fire 2 to up the dmg and exp with a dedicated healer along with me while I also enfeeble with Paralyze, Bio II and Posion II. So things are really up in the air in what should be fixed from my view on how adaptable jobs can be. =x

no, 1 year ago was when the rad thing was hearing about these sky parties pulling chain 15.
Yeah, but only if you were the ONLY party in Ru'Avitau (aside from the ones exping on aura statues, ah, those were the days), which happens when the moon is in the seventh house and Jupiter aligns with Mars. Those parties were legendary precisely because the conditions for them were so damn rare.

And even then they weren't making 8k/hr, except in people's dreams (or when everyone had a ridill). I was in several and 5-6k/hr was more typical.
It wasn't 'til just before AU came out that all the different variations started showing up, with all the timing mapped out precisely.
Regardless, that's not important. Are you not seeing the heart of what's wrong that Karinya's pointing out? I don't give a shit if we get 3k/hour or 30k/hour -- as long as I have a reason to Skillchain. As long as multiple layouts work. I think tp burns should be acceptable -- they shouldn't get 3x the amount of exp.
Thank you. I'm glad to see that somebody understands the concept of balance and how it applies to people who are already heavily invested in their jobs (both exp-wise and financially) and don't want to level the flavor-of-the-month just to merit faster. Obviously, as a 75 RDM, I could get into merit tp burns anytime I wanted. The point is that others can't, and that's wrong, whether it affects me personally or not.

This is an interesting topic so I will dig in a bit. Each solution seems to have a problem with it.

People's Mind sets:
#1 More exp per hour is always better than less exp per hour.
#2 It is better to be simple, straight forward and effective in most exp situations.
#3 Don't nerf us!
#4 I don't care about you, me comes 1st (exp, fun..etc)
#5 We will not go back to the way it was unless it benefits us.

Paladins Problems/Solutions:

Unable to keep and hold hate well enough for T-VT mobs or in 'burn' Party. Most melees are very strong on T-VT. Plds have a hard time holding hate with T-VTs after lv60 or once the melees obtained their powerful equipments, Job Abilities or WS. The use of Utsusemi eliminate the need for a static tank. Ninja changed themselves from evasion tank to a full damage dealer while Pld remained as a fulltime tank. Transition to a DD Pld have proven difficult if not impossible for many. The problem lies within the progression of jobs as they level up and becoming better and better (WAY better) rather than the target for exp.


Sol 1: Increase Pld's ability to generate and maintain hate.
Problem: Issue of Pld go ahead and sub Ninja for tanking since provoke is less useful and less damage taken. While this might not hold for exp PT, several events that required Ninja before will now clearly favors Pld. In situations that does not require Ninja, the use of Pld/Nin would greatly reduced the challenge rating.

Sol 2: Create more IT+ mobs or 'traditional' party friendly monsters.
Problem: Exp over-time is not as good as 'burn' PT (evidence of lv60ish able to perform burn PT in ToAU, bibiki, boyada). Even on the new I-am-taking-2x-damage-on-WS mob, the exp over time is clearly not in the

Sol 3: Encourages players to change from the static tank Pld to a DD/Support role in PT.
Problem: Limited spots in PT that would want a Pld. Traditional/Standard/JP formation 3-3 (3DD, 3 support) PT is fairly balanced and requires each member to be very specialized. A Pld with mixed DD/Support won't fit into such PT without reducing its effectiveness. Pure TP Burn/NA formation 4-2 (4DD, 2 Support) is imblanced but works if the support are good enough. Using pld as DD/Support will surely reduced the stress on the mages but also reduced PT's damage output. The reason for 4-2 PT is that most people don't generate enough damage for a standard 3-3 PT to function well.

Sol 4: Implement "Enhanced Provoke" effect in one of Pld's AF.
Problem: Not implemented yet but possible lower exp/hour unless the "Enhanced Provoke" effect is very poweful. Further increase the need for Pld/War in end-game events if holding hate is a problem (this reduces Nin/War uses).

White Mage problem and solutions
Unable to generate enough MP to support a roaming PT is Whm's problem. Most NA players prefer 4-2 Party. This means only 1 Support is avaiable, so Whm will only get one type of Refresh (ballad or refresh; Evoker Rolls are too unevent to count on). Rdm is clearly favorable than Whm in these 4-2 PT. So strictly speaking, Whm don't have enough MP over long periods and downtime is bound to happend more frequenly (than Rdm) if the Whm can not manage their MP right. The lack of Convert and additional refresh shows that Rdm has a much large pool of MP to support the PT than Whm.

Sol 1: Enhanced Whm's ability to cure better.
Problem: This have been implemented. Whm gained Fastcast and very high cure potency through equipments and merits. A Whm can gain up to 70% of cure Potency (ie. Cure 4 can break 680HP) with the right setup and equipments. The use of Curaga, Regen, Cure V and several -Emnity equipments/food made Whm the most powerful Healing job in the game. However, no many people exploited this area due to equipments avaiablity; thus Whm remained quite inefficient than they should.

Sol 2: Gives Whm more refresh effect.
Problem: Since whm is a lot more poweful than Rdm in curing, the better use of refresh can lead to the reduced need for Rdm (or refresher overall) and Smn. Sanction, Noble's Tunic and Smn sub job are good examples. Whm can get a natural +3 Mp refresh combine with a Rdm and Brd to support they can get up to +9 MP a tick. This is clearly a very powerful 'refresh'. Further enhance this feature might reduce the challenges on difficult events or made Whm too good of a Healer compare to Smn.

Sol 3: Encourages people to use 3-3 formation PT (3 Support is bound to have a Whm)
Problem: Average melees aren't strong enough to do enough damage with only 3 people. To peform well in 3-3 setup you need to have strong melees. This means you will have to throw those Pld, Blm...etc out of the PT and invite stronger melees.

Sol 2: Create more IT+ mobs or 'traditional' party friendly monsters.
Problem: Exp over-time is not as good as 'burn' PT (evidence of lv60ish able to perform burn PT in ToAU, bibiki, boyada). Even on the new I-am-taking-2x-damage-on-WS mob, the exp over time is clearly not in the
(note: this is where the sentence ended in the original. Nevertheless it's clear what Kenki was trying to say.)

This is exactly why I proposed reform of the exp table to shift exp/hr rates in favor of parity between fast killing of weak mobs and slower killing of stronger mobs. Currently the speedkill partys are *enormously* more favored in exp rate; I think that bringing both party styles to the same exp rate (whatever rate that ends up being) will improve a lot of things including invite rates for the currently disfavored jobs (including blm, which go great in a traditional party fighting dangerous monsters because of the way black magic largely ignores level difference).
Sol 1: Enhanced Whm's ability to cure better.
Problem: This have been implemented. Whm gained Fastcast and very high cure potency through equipments and merits. A Whm can gain up to 70% of cure Potency (ie. Cure 4 can break 680HP) with the right setup and equipments. The use of Curaga, Regen, Cure V and several -Emnity equipments/food made Whm the most powerful Healing job in the game. However, no many people exploited this area due to equipments avaiablity; thus Whm remained quite inefficient than they should.
70%? Seriously? All I know of is noble's tunic for 10%, light/apollo staff for another 10%, and medicine ring which can be hard to keep the latent active on. What else is there that doesn't conflict with those equip slots? And a lot of people don't even have the noble's because it's so hard to get the ingredients for.

Anyway, this won't help much because speedkill parties don't need a better healer; they don't need a healer at all, because they're fighting monsters too weak to get through Utsusemi before they die. All they need is haste and crowd control and while a whm can provide those, a rdm provides them better.

70%? Seriously? All I know of is noble's tunic for 10%, light/apollo staff for another 10%, and medicine ring which can be hard to keep the latent active on.
Yeah, I was baffled by that too, looking at SomePage's (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/list-by-affect.php?affect=Cure%20Potency) list the most you could get to is 37% dual wielding Templar Mace and Asklepios.

For 70% +Cure Potency:

Nobles Tunic: +10%
Healing Feather: +10% (WHM ENM item)
Templar Mace/Light Staff/Apollo Staff/Healing Staff: +10%
Medicine Ring: +10% (with Latent)

Thats +40%, which is pretty much available at all times. The last 30% comes from

Korin Obi: Gain full effect of Lightsday/Light Weather Bonuses.

In Temenos there is always double Light "weather", so with the Korin Obi equiped all Cure spells gain +30% Potency (as do Banish spells and Holy). However outside of Temenos, you can only get +10%, and that's only on Lightsday.

so... they meant in Temenos on lightsday, with healing feather active, in yellow hp? Might as well throw in HQ nobles and make it 72%, that's a lot LESS unlikely than all of those other circumstances.

In any case it clearly can't apply to exp/merit situations, unless you know people that merit in areas with double light weather and only merit on lightsday. I'm pretty sure healing feather doesn't last long enough to make it practical for use in exp/merit either, so the most you're practically looking at is 30% with noble's and medicine ring active, 7/8 of the time. And if you start using curagas you'll lose the medicine ring (not to mention you have to either get hit or swap out of some zenith to activate it in the first place, and auto-regen will eventually shut it down anyway).

I really wish there were some item that you could equip that turned off auto-regen or did 1 damage per tick in exchange for an effect. As it stands, Medicine Ring is pretty flaky - either you need a ton of rare gearswaps like Serket Ring/Vivian Ring/Zenith to force your HP into yellow. Not very practical otherwise.


Icemage

Incomplete Idea:

I was thinking about bards. And first, how overpowered they are (in this sense, they're overpowered because they simply have too much functionality, not because they're unlimited or invincible or able to exploit for major benefits -- nevermind, mazurka tanking is an exploit pure and simple) and second, how few songs you actually get to play as a BRD. Oh yeah, I guess there's a 3rd: people are too gung-ho on refresh.

What if you could "soft-cap" Refresh effects. Something like 5 mp/tic. What this would mean is that Refresh + Ballad 2 and you'd already be capped, making Ballad 1 pointless. This would mean you could Etude a BLM - of course you can in the game already, but since you can get 20 extra mp/minute, you take that instead.

The next part would be the "soft" part. Effects that extend the cap: Auto-Refresh Traits, Gear that provides (Noble's Tunic) or enhances (Relic Horn, Storm Fife) Refresh effects, and Corsair bonuses (the +1 bonus from having a SMN in the party as well as the +1 bonus for rolling an 11). Maybe Sanction Auto-Refresh, maybe not. I'd also make Juices able to stack with Refresh in a system like this (though S-E would probably disagree).

The idea is that one hand you're limiting the total amounts players have available to them but on the other hand, you've given them a reason to try combining effects (having smn + cor in mage parties is suddenly a lot more desirable than brds). This may hurt Pld, I realize, since they have the most need for constant high levels of Refresh... but like I said, incomplete idea. =)

To go Further, I'd like to make tier 2 songs more potent, but make them "overlapping effects." Meaning Victory March may give 19% Haste instead of 11% (or whatever) but it automatically overwrites Advancing March. Thus, you wouldn't give a PLD 2 Ballads if you could -- you'd be more inclined to hit him up with Minuet or... whatever.

This is something that I think would probably upset a lot of game balance, but I think from there, lots of changes could come into being to further where the game is.

I don't think putting a cap on Refresh is a good idea at all. Of course, I'm probably biased.

Incomplete Idea:

I was thinking about bards. And first, how overpowered they are (in this sense, they're overpowered because they simply have too much functionality, not because they're unlimited or invincible or able to exploit for major benefits -- nevermind, mazurka tanking is an exploit pure and simple) and second, how few songs you actually get to play as a BRD. Oh yeah, I guess there's a 3rd: people are too gung-ho on refresh.

What if you could "soft-cap" Refresh effects. Something like 5 mp/tic. What this would mean is that Refresh + Ballad 2 and you'd already be capped, making Ballad 1 pointless. This would mean you could Etude a BLM - of course you can in the game already, but since you can get 20 extra mp/minute, you take that instead.

The next part would be the "soft" part. Effects that extend the cap: Auto-Refresh Traits, Gear that provides (Noble's Tunic) or enhances (Relic Horn, Storm Fife) Refresh effects, and Corsair bonuses (the +1 bonus from having a SMN in the party as well as the +1 bonus for rolling an 11). Maybe Sanction Auto-Refresh, maybe not. I'd also make Juices able to stack with Refresh in a system like this (though S-E would probably disagree).

The idea is that one hand you're limiting the total amounts players have available to them but on the other hand, you've given them a reason to try combining effects (having smn + cor in mage parties is suddenly a lot more desirable than brds). This may hurt Pld, I realize, since they have the most need for constant high levels of Refresh... but like I said, incomplete idea. =)

To go Further, I'd like to make tier 2 songs more potent, but make them "overlapping effects." Meaning Victory March may give 19% Haste instead of 11% (or whatever) but it automatically overwrites Advancing March. Thus, you wouldn't give a PLD 2 Ballads if you could -- you'd be more inclined to hit him up with Minuet or... whatever.

This is something that I think would probably upset a lot of game balance, but I think from there, lots of changes could come into being to further where the game is.

No

Incomplete Idea:

I was thinking about bards. And first, how overpowered they are (in this sense, they're overpowered because they simply have too much functionality, not because they're unlimited or invincible or able to exploit for major benefits -- nevermind, mazurka tanking is an exploit pure and simple) and second, how few songs you actually get to play as a BRD. Oh yeah, I guess there's a 3rd: people are too gung-ho on refresh.

What if you could "soft-cap" Refresh effects. Something like 5 mp/tic. What this would mean is that Refresh + Ballad 2 and you'd already be capped, making Ballad 1 pointless. This would mean you could Etude a BLM - of course you can in the game already, but since you can get 20 extra mp/minute, you take that instead.

The next part would be the "soft" part. Effects that extend the cap: Auto-Refresh Traits, Gear that provides (Noble's Tunic) or enhances (Relic Horn, Storm Fife) Refresh effects, and Corsair bonuses (the +1 bonus from having a SMN in the party as well as the +1 bonus for rolling an 11). Maybe Sanction Auto-Refresh, maybe not. I'd also make Juices able to stack with Refresh in a system like this (though S-E would probably disagree).

The idea is that one hand you're limiting the total amounts players have available to them but on the other hand, you've given them a reason to try combining effects (having smn + cor in mage parties is suddenly a lot more desirable than brds). This may hurt Pld, I realize, since they have the most need for constant high levels of Refresh... but like I said, incomplete idea. =)

To go Further, I'd like to make tier 2 songs more potent, but make them "overlapping effects." Meaning Victory March may give 19% Haste instead of 11% (or whatever) but it automatically overwrites Advancing March. Thus, you wouldn't give a PLD 2 Ballads if you could -- you'd be more inclined to hit him up with Minuet or... whatever.

This is something that I think would probably upset a lot of game balance, but I think from there, lots of changes could come into being to further where the game is.
No, no and triple no >_>;

open minded much? I don't see why 3 responses of "No" should serve as enlightenment to what's wrong with my incomplete idea.

First, this wouldn't affect Refresh.

Second, this isn't as drastic as some things. It's not like it'd kill exp as much as putting a finite limit on exp chains as Karinya's suggested. And it's not like you need rediculous amounts of refresh for anything in this game.

Third, Bards really are overpowered.

I don't think this idea is the golden answer, and I wouldn't normally defend my own ideas. But you guys are being elementary in your reasoning.

EDIT: Oh, and this would also boost Corsair indirectly as they could always have a means of increasing the refresh beyond normal cap just by having a SMN in the party. That would reduce the amount of bitch-ery we hear about people who don't like the "inconsistent" buffs of COR.

The only bitching I've ever heard about COR is that there aren't enough of them. They are somewhere between "nearly as overpowered as BRD" and "even more overpowered than BRD".

Anyway, I think this idea is first and foremost unnecessary. Increased MP restoration has naturally diminishing returns: the more MP you have, the less you need more of it. Dark staves and other +hMP items, cookies, and sanction refresh demonstrate this pretty well: the need for refresh jobs is already lower than it has ever been. (Player perception of that need has not followed suit, but that's hardly SE's fault.) Most parties would work fine and have no trouble reaching chain #5 with a BLM, or even a WHM, doing their crowd control, a traditional RNG or THF puller, and no refresher at all; it's only the infinite-chain phenomenon that makes even trivial amounts of downtime intolerable.

Mages right now are limited in what they can do mainly by casting and recast times and the need to control their hate (and in WHM's case, by the fact that you can't heal more than all the damage your party is taking).

As you pointed out, you don't need ridiculous amounts of refresh for anything. So why bother limiting it? It's already usually silly to sing both ballads when a RDM is in the party.

Perhaps some underused songs could stand to be improved, and/or some of the overused/overpowered ones toned down a little, but I don't think Ballad is one of them, really. Ballad is only as good as the spells you're casting with it and at its best, dual ballad takes up both song slots to do a job no better than Refresh (albeit slightly less annoying to keep up). It's Minuet and Madrigal, and possibly the uninterruptibility of Lullabies, that are potentially overpowered and supercharge the whole party that has a bard in it. (But at the same time, they're giving up a party slot to someone who can't DD or nuke effectively and can heal only a little, so everyone else *has* to become better at what they're doing or the bard would be dead weight.)

Bards aren't overpowered. People just rely on them too much. If anything, I'd say BRD is one of the most complete classes in need of no buffs or nerfs.

Bards aren't overpowered. People just rely on them too much. If anything, I'd say BRD is one of the most complete classes in need of no buffs or nerfs.

But this isn't about BRDs or any other job being overpowered or not, this is just another "they have (/can do) something I don't (/can't) so they need to be nerfed" kinda thing.

And we mages love our freshies to death x.x;

Bards do on paper are complete as a class, but when people play them or exp with them, its using so limited of whats open to them. Most when I've gone on mnk or thf don't use etudes and just stick to minuet, march and madgril. Few use peon, etudes, or resistance songs.

But this isn't about BRDs or any other job being overpowered or not, this is just another "they have (/can do) something I don't (/can't) so they need to be nerfed" kinda thing. I was just responding to the comment above. I should have quoted.

I was just responding to the comment above. I should have quoted.

I know :P

I'm a terrible quoter, I admit. I do agree with what you said though, Raydeus. :p

You shouldn't. He's wrong.

I'm one of the most desired jobs for tp burn party. All you need is 3 me's, a nin, a rdm, and a BARD.

Why the fuck would I care if my job can't do everything in the game?

I didn't level Warrior to lullaby. I didn't level Warrior to use Souleater. I didn't level Warrior to suddenly be a Red Mage and solo Genbu. So don't shove words in my mouth.

If you want the best exp in the game, you need a Bard. Even Corsairs want bards in their parties. Oh, can't forget that this is true for any layout. All the tp burns, all the manaburns, and all the standard parties just function better with a Bard.

How many BCs have you heard of where Bards aren't good? The only thing that I can think of is maybe Promyvions. But then, I loved having a BRD when I did promies with one. On the other hand, how many BC battles have you heard where people say "you need a bard?" Lots, for me. Granted, a lot of that is in the player's minds. But let's face it. If FFXI community says you can't do X battle without Y jobs, you're very often hard pressed to convince others that it's not true.

Ultimate pullers, buffers, sleepers, a slow effect that's more potent than fully meritted Slow 2 with full MND gear, oh and they're kick-ass tanks too.

But gosh, I didn't wanna say all of that.

In other news:

and in WHM's case, by the fact that you can't heal more than all the damage your party is taking

S-E needs to mull this over for a while. Cure-> Stoneskin go! (ok, that may be cheap/overpowered/impossible to program).

And Karinya, everyone I've talked to on my server seems to hate Corsairs. No one gives them a spot in important things. My server sucks though and I can only pray for the well-being of CORs elsewhere.

So what does this have to do with the abilities a BRD has? If players are going to be so reliant on one job, then that's their own fault. You seem to be pretty angry about it, but that doesn't make you right.

Sounded more like a rant more than anything to me =x
Anyways, bards aren't usually the best in some setups i've toyed with. Nor have I seen them work in BCNM40 Worms Turn or KSNM30 ODS, and Prommies I'd rather have a DD or smn than brd.
WAR, you can use SE just /drk >_>, any job as a capibility to do almost anything if you adjust yourself to do so and break out of the sterotypical mold for what a job can or cant do.
Phalanxed tank as rdm/war against puks, and took dmg comparable to a pld of the same lvl. Whm/nin dd easily and got sizeable hexa thanks to dual weild. Thf mini tank for merits against Sea Puks thanks to eva and voke. BRD just has been made to be more reliable for what we 'want' them for with little changes made to them.

In regards to Lmnop's post:

Although it's an interesting idea, I don't think it would be a good idea to put a limit on refresh, even one that can be extended like you suggest. To be honest I can't really say why I don't like it, I just don't think it's a good idea after all this time of bards working a certain way.

I do like the idea of overlapping/overwriting effects from songs, yeah it's nice to stack the songs together, but I do think that for the more powerful version should overwrite the weaker version of the song.

Oh, and this would also boost Corsair indirectly as they could always have a means of increasing the refresh beyond normal cap just by having a SMN in the party. That would reduce the amount of bitch-ery we hear about people who don't like the "inconsistent" buffs of COR.


Geesh, people complain about that? Sure they can be a bit inconsistent, but all of them are kickass buffs, good lord, Warrior's Roll especially is insane no matter what you roll.


this is just another "they have (/can do) something I don't (/can't) so they need to be nerfed" kinda thing.


It really isn't, Lmnop said no such thing.

If players are going to be so reliant on one job, then that's their own fault. You seem to be pretty angry about it, but that doesn't make you right.


I think it has more to do with the fact that the players are so reliant on one job, for only a few of the abilities that this job does. Really, 99% of the bards I party with only use att+, acc+, and ballad songs, maybe a lullaby, possibly a dispel, depends on mob/buff used, and that is it. If we're lucky, the bard will toss out the debuffs to make the mob weaker to an element for the blm or smn in the party. I don't see the blm getting int+, which I don't know, but at 60+ with all of their +elemental skill, would it really help them at all? Even so, there are alot of potentially useful songs that bards just do not seem to use.

Simple really, bards only think they need songs people want them for! >_>; Stack that with wars at 75 and easy merits for jobs people don't invite.
Edit: Reference to those who level merit favorable jobs to get merits for unfavorable jobs.

I just don't think that jobs should be changed because Players don't want to use different ones, or use them to the fullest extent of their abilities.

Not to mention you can't change the player's mentality with nerfs, the only thing that changes player's ways are results.

Make a regular party that can make the same xp/hr as a burn party and players will be open to try regular parties again. Nerf the crap out of the current Aht Urgan burns and players will just move to the next burnable thing, so the nerfs will never end till players simply quit the game.

I really thought after the RNG nerf and how it went (nothing changed at all) people would've understood that.

Exactly. Nerf BRD, and folks are just going to find a workaround. Then there will be a new princess job, and people will call for it to be nerfed as well (likely RDM).

I don't agree with you, Murphie, but thank you for being civil. I guess I do sound angry in the above posts.

I'll reiterate that I think BRDs are too powerful only in regards to having too much functionality. They're simply part of the ideal layout in far too many situations. And that ideal layout revolves around 5-8 songs out of their hundreds to sing.

I have another layer to it: I want BRD to be more interesting. Bard may be incredible, but most bards suck because their job is so boring that they don't pay attention to what's going on. I make it a point to praise every good bard I have in party chat and point out how wonderful they must be to be able to stand the monotony. I want something that forces them to vary their songs more to give them something to focus on. And yes, Vyuru, In the instance of making i