Why polearm weapons are so screwed?

[seq]

why Polearm weapons are so screwed?
here is a comparison betwen polearms and Axes that share the same NM,ENM,BCNM or whatever else it could be:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/images/c/c7/Wrath_Tabar.png
notice the incredible STR boost (i know, BSTs STR already suck and need this boost) but notice the DMG:45 too, it's almost the same as Lv70+ Axes's DMG right?
this Axe along with this Polearm weapon drop from the same group of NMs in the Eldieme Necropolis:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/images/c/c6/Envy_Spear.gif
CHR+7? ._.
DMG:67? shouldn't be AT LEAST DMG:80+ like the other Level60 polearms?

to the Rune weapons, there are many rune weapons but again i'll pick Axe and Polearm only, Rune Axe:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/images/4/42/Rune_Axe.png
DMG:45, pretty high for an Axe of that level again.

Rune Halberd:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/images/4/45/Rune_Halberd.gif
DMG:68 for a Level70 Polearm?

to the ENM weapons, Maneater:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/images/2/2d/Maneater.jpg
DMG:49, very good as DMG:50 seem to be the highest of the axes.

and this polearm from the same group:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/images/5/5b/Stone-Splitter.gif
DMG:71? shouldn't be like Mezraq's DMG or atleast like Driezack's DMG? DMG:87+?

i won't mention Sea's god weapons.

this is a Level 60 polearm weapon if you want to compare it to the Envy spear:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/images/e/e5/Gnl.jpg
and a Level70 Polearm weapon:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/images/4/4e/Colossal_Lance.jpg
and a Level75 Polearm weapon:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/images/6/60/Orichalcum_Lance.gif
and why this one have a Ranged accuracy boost anyway...

Axes of similer levels to the above mentioned Axes:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/images/7/70/Darksteelaxe.jpg

Juggernaut (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Juggernaut)
this one have attack+30 too or i'm blind? :/

Woodville's Axe (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Woodville%27s_Axe)

i know i might get flamed for this, and i know i wrote a similer thread to this one before.
to those who will say most of this polearm weapons are Spear and so they've to have low DMG and low delay because only DRG can equip the lance type weapons bla bla bla, Gondo-Shizunori (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/6190) is a lance and it's DMG is pretty good and it's equipable by SAM not DRG only, Engetsuto (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/8894) have a high DMG almost the same as the lances of the same level and equipable by more than just SAM and DRG, Leviathan's Couse (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/8018) aswell.
the gap betwen Spear and Lance's DMG is so rediculous when compared to other weapons such as Axes's Tabar (Ex: Woodville's Axe (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/5332)), Pick (Ex: Retributor (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/6184)) or Battleaxe (Ex: Maneater (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/6702)).Polearm's Spears like Wyvern Spear (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/464), Lance like Orichalcum Lance (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/7457) (or Mezraq).
will changing this spears into lances break the game? Great Axes don't seem to have such varying DMG in it, Scythes don't have a varying DMG too... Great katana aswell don't have varying DMG...
Why only Polearm is having this varying DMG betwen Lances and spears?

[Emurei]

GKs do have a varying damage gap between the Quicker SAM NIN one verses the SAM only one of the same level. Some of the Best obtainable GKs bearly tips or doesn't even go over the 80 damge scale.

[Jei]

I don't think your reasoning for damage is really fair. Take the maneater VS stone-splitter for example. Stone-splitter has roughyly 54% more damage per hit. While only have 40% more delay. Comparing damage over time, stone-splitter comes out on top.

[Drive]

Didn't he make a topic like this before? anyway to answer your question with the pure and honest truth. Spears are ugly, lances look much better. I don't want to swing(or poke) something that is ugly.

[Icemage]

Look at your damage per second rating on those weapons and you'd find they're actually comparable. Your 80+ damage lances are all 25% slower than the ones you deem "weaker".


Icemage

[Karinya]

However, DRG generally prefer the lances because of the higher damage and TP return from jumps and WS. If you look only at damage from normal swings, the low delay spears are actually pretty much even with lances, sometimes even a little ahead. It just so happens that the only job with A polearm also has jumps that benefit from high DMG while not being hurt by high DLY, so that's why the fast spears don't see much use. Well, that and people pay more attention to their WS damage than to their normal damage just because it's easier to see.

I wonder whether it would be worthwhile for WAR and SAM with B polearm to use them on piercing-weak enemies, though; you would lose some ACC and ATK from the skill gap, but possibly make it up with the piercing damage bonus.

[Skoal]

Look at your damage per second rating on those weapons and you'd find they're actually comparable. Your 80+ damage lances are all 25% slower than the ones you deem "weaker".


Icemage

They are not comparable. DPS does not take into consideration the two Jumps and weapon skill damage.

[Emurei]

For SAM nope, polearm is the last on my priority list to level up, even capping Parrying skill for me is higher priority than polearm ;p the GK is a well rounded weapon for all mobs.

Besides DRGs got their "flying blue rat" (inside joke) adding to their DPS ;p

[Vyuru]

It's not so much why are they so screwed really. Look at the lvl 20 cap BCNMs, most of the platoon weapons are inferior to their counterparts, but the Platoon Lance can serve a dragoon all the way up to level 36.

We don't need more weapons, especially in the lvl 60 range, because really it would have to be better or equivilant to the GKL, if it's better people will switch to it and arguements will ensue over people being "gimp" for using the GKL, and which is better. Just look at the Dark Mezraq vs GKL arguements.


Gondo-Shizunori is a lance

Actually no, it's a couse/naginata, so it falls under the spear catergory rather than lance.

I'd also point out that both in the beginning of the game and end game, the quested lances are by far superior to anything else. Platoon Lance beats all other lances hands down for a long time. The Imperial Nezza is practically a lvl 71 Orihalcom lance, obtained for free and a fraction of the time it would take someone to get the gil for the Orihalcom Lance, only thing better might be a Mezraq or the Gugnir.


the gap betwen Spear and Lance's DMG is so rediculous when compared to other weapons such as Axes's Tabar (Ex: Woodville's Axe), Pick (Ex: Retributor) or Battleaxe (Ex: Maneater).

You also have weapons that in the case of axes, cap out at about what, 50 damage, and lances that cap at 92 for lances, not counting relic. They are not the same weapon, the stats they are given are not the same, they are not treated the same, and they should not be compared in the same way.

So no, polearms are not screwed, and I think your comparisons are a bit off.

[raidenn]

I seem to always picture drgs with lances and tall shields. How come SE never allowed shields for drgs?

[KalemLyco]

Y'know it's kind hard poking things with a two handed wespon when holding a shield :/

[raidenn]

Jousters use shields right?

[Legal Fish]

There is like three types of Pole Arms: Spears(including Halberds), Lances, and Courses. Most of the time Spears are weak but available to PLD, SAM, and WAR. Lances are DRG only. And the Couse are like special high-powered ones that allow WAR and SAM to fight with weapons nearly as or as good at Lances.

I think you are addressing a small issue that is the result of two bigger issues:

1) 2-handed weapons blow compared to 1-handed weapons being dual-wielded

2) There are plenty of weapons that are not A(or B for some) for your job and you'll almost never use any of them, yet SE has been pushing multi-job weapons since Day 1. The problem is outside delay and damage, every weapon in the entire game is the same and there are no Weapon Skills for any weapon but Sword that make a non-A/B worth it. Most weapon skills are the same expect for damage and number of attacks, with most add effects entirely pointless.

Now number for 2) : I'm sure there are plenty of creative ways to fix that(one example is giving Polearm and Great Sword PvP-style range all the time); but 1) is a no brainer. When in doubt, copy DnD. 2-handed weapons should have a 25% STR bonus. If you feel "nerfy" give dual wield a -15% STR penalty on main hand and -30% STR on sub hand.

[Celeal]

I am not sure about BST, but at level 75 WAR's Axe skill is A- (capped 269 w/o merit) and DRG's spear is A+ (capped 276 w/o merit). If we factor in capped skill to DPS for those weapons, they should even out a bit (at least in theory).

Now /NIN Dual Weird and /SAM Hasso is very close in terms of speed and damage.

[Raydeus]

Is it just me or the only reason why those weapons listed by the OP have lower damage rating is not only because they are faster, but also because they can be used by other jobs?

That being said I'm 100% behind the idea of increasing the damage rating of weapons like the Rune Halberd, specially since I can equip that as a PLD.

I never liked the idea of DRGs being the only ones who could use high damage polearms anyway. :P

[Vyuru]

I wouldn't mind if something like the Two Handed ability from FFT was given to all of the jobs who mainly use two handed weapons, drk, drg, sam, maybe war, but only if SE were to make it so that it would boost per hit damage, and you would not get the added damage when you used a weaponskill.

I'm fine with warriors dual wielding everything to oblivion, but I do not think that everyone else should get a major boost to their WS damage to bring them up to the warrior's level.

Besides, drk and sam have some really damaging WS, and while dragoon's weapon skills tend to not be as powerful, I tend to be only 100-300damage behind the other WS that aren't SATA'd, and then my wyvern does a breath attack for about 150ish+ damage, so we really aren't as far behind in the damage department, and that's another reason I would like a boost to my damage, but not a boost to my WS damage.

[kiffkin]

I am not sure about BST, but at level 75 WAR's Axe skill is A- (capped 269 w/o merit) and DRG's spear is A+ (capped 276 w/o merit).
BST also has A- Axe skill, but then you have to consider the differences in abilities, stats, equipment, subs, pets, and so on, between it and WAR.

The OP didn't exactly use the best example by comparing polearms with axes, given the comparative popularity of DRGs and BSTs in parties. Wrath Tabar is useful for three levels (and can't be dual wielded) until it is superseded by Kabrakan's Axe; Rune Axes are generally dual wielded and used for the Regen effect (when used with Gaudy Harness/Sanction Refresh). They are also both very, very cheap.

Without parsing, I have no way of knowing how much damage a DRG does compared with the other melee DDs. However I do know that as a BST, most of my damage is done by my pet rather than my axe.

[LadyKiKi]

Best examples would be Scythes, since equally only 4 jobs (not including any of the Rune Type Weapons) can equip it.

WAR/DRK/BST/BLM

and Polearm being DRG/WAR/PLD/SAM

BLM and PLD both have an E rating in their respective equippable weapons.

BST and SAM both have B- in their respective equippable weapons.

WAR has B in Polearm and B+ Scythe.

DRG and DRK both have A+ in their skill for their respective weapons. All the DRK only scythes surpass the multi-equippable scythes' DMG by a bit, a bit like lance. But with lance the DMG ratings are on a very "spikey" value, with it going up and down frequently, even on some DRG only weapons.

Both Martial Type weapons are equippable to the respective job only also.

[Omni]

you cant compare base dmg -_- you have to take into account delay.

if you take a look at comparable lvl 2h weapons, polearms are actually pretty strong in terms of base dmg. most notably in the lower levels, it tends to even out more 60+

in addition, the base dmg of polearms is not the real problem at hand. its the weak weapon skills. only more recently with the introduction of toua that polearms have plenty of mobs to be strong against.

[Macht]

Well the way a group of designers fixed this on a MUD I played (was part of the designer group), was that we gave the weapons weights. The weights were calculated to the players STR and then Offhand potentails were factored from that.

Basically it was designed to do this:

Two-Handed at full possible STR would give you +50% Damage and if you had full DEX +50% Acc. In most part the players average were around 35%-40% Damage bonus and 10%-20% Acc bonus. If you were to Dual Wield and Off-hand was different weight you'd suffer loss to Acc and Damage, depending on how far apart the weight difference.

It makes the dual wielding part more strategical because if you were wield a weapon that you are allowed only 1 of then you had to adjust the other weapon to be something to compliment it. With how we adjusted the weightings or I guess better term would be values of the weapons it made it were you could wield two High damage weapons with one having a +acc to it but that +acc only helped you so far, you'd still take a full damage pentaly.

[Lmnop]

It just so happens that the only job with A polearm also has jumps that benefit from high DMG while not being hurt by high DLY, so that's why the fast spears don't see much use.

To elaborate poinltessly: Technically, the higher the delay on a lance the better. This is why I wish there was a Gae Bolg 2. All weapons gain tp at the same rate, but the slower the weapon, the more tp you can abuse from Barrage or Jump/High Jump. That aside...

2 handed weapons suck, but it's not too terrible at this point. As Armando pointed out once, it's actually a subjob that breaks one-handed weapons (NIN). SAM has attempted to do the same for 2-handers. The problem is that no one will give it a chance...

I agree with OP, though. I guess maybe this isn't a "power level" thing as much as a flavor thing. S-E often releases a group of weapons. Typically one of every weapon type with same/similar stats. And every time they do these groups (with exception of Platoon, sure), the Drg one sucks. Destroyers, Maneater, Wrath Tabar.... Thanks, S-E... though I don't think the Gondo-Shizunori is too terrible.

Why they made Rampage capable of doing more damage (Single-wielded) than Penta-Thrust is beyond me...

[LadyKiKi]

Sorry, I wasn't comparing base DMG, but rather the variety and availability of both types of weapons due to how they are laid out in a similar fashion and how only certain jobs can equip them. In a way I was also comparing the inconsistency of base DMG across the weapons, how scythes are high with similar delay but also how polearms that have low delay have low base DMG.

*LadyKiKi shrugs.