Besieged: Can we please kill something?

[Sabaron]

As a RDM, I can participate in Besieged. However, I have noticed that despite the varying power levels of the players, it is a rare thing to actually see enemies die even on lower level attacks. Most recently, a couple of parties were facing off against one Mamool Ja Spotter and besieged ended before we got it past 50%... This in incredibly frustrating. My questions are these:

Would S-E be willing to allow /checks instead of "Impossible to Gauge" on all the mobs?

Would S-E create a "mix" of monsters so that various well prepared parties could actually kill regular mobs in a decent amount of time instead of ignoring/kiting them while multiple alliances go and get repeatedly killed by the NMs?


Every time I've seen a level 6 "win", it appeared to be a "timer" win. I've never seen a level 6 general fall before the time ran out.

I've stopped participating in besieged because of the following:

(1) The experience gain is very low for the amount of work involved.
(2) My parties/alliances can never do anything except kite and die or deal puny amounts of damage (even the big MNKs can't dish out adequate damage).
(3) There are no drops, no personal/party rewards, and it's extremely easy to cap out the experience/IS reward.

I don't want besieged to always fail to take the candescence. I just feel that the event itself appears to be rather boring, since there's nothing to do but repeatedly die and raise and kite mobs away from the candy room. I would like for Besieged to actually be a worthwhile activity instead of a giant Deathfest... There is no way that Al Zahbi would ever be able to defend against the onslaught if not for the time limit. The monsters would eventually win.

[Caspian]

I'm curious, what level are the monks that you are alliancing with? Even only being 68, I can put out comparable numbers per shot to most other 70+ jobs. Typically hitting in the 80's on beasts, 50's and 60's on beastmen, and pretty well sucking like everyone else on NM's.
Numbers are low, but you trade off with the fact that you usually have about 30 people attacking the same mob at once.
The biggest changes in Besieged that I'd like to see are a better hate system, it may just be that I'm only seeing about 5% of whats actually going on with the mob, but hate seems highly erratic. I'd also like for people who are dead at the end of besieged, but still contributed, be able to still receive xp and IS. It sucks when you get aoe'd by the general right at the end, or don't get a raise in time and the last 30mins - an hour of work are all for naught.

[Karinya]

There is no time limit. The reason the players are winning is because people *are* killing monsters. Most non-NMs will go down in 5-10 minutes with a dozen or so people on them, faster with more. I've seen some monsters die in as little as 2 or 3 minutes.

Would S-E create a "mix" of monsters so that various well prepared parties could actually kill regular mobs in a decent amount of time instead of ignoring/kiting them while multiple alliances go and get repeatedly killed by the NMs?

They already did. Killing regular mobs and "small" NMs (i.e. not the megaboss) is how you win Besieged.

My main beef with Besieged is that it's obvious that many people *want* to kill the megabosses, but it's just not feasible. If you could totally control everyone in the zone and get them to stop killing normal mobs and then focus on the MB for several hours you might be able to do it, but in reality, people who doesn't want the besieged to last several hours are going to destroy their army and the MB will retreat alive. They just have too much def/eva/hp to be taken down by 200 people in an hour (even once the right NMs are killed that make them vulnerable). And frankly, if they're not intended to be mortal, what are they doing there in the first place?

[Caspian]

There is no time limit. The reason the players are winning is because people *are* killing monsters. Most non-NMs will go down in 5-10 minutes with a dozen or so people on them, faster with more. I've seen some monsters die in as little as 2 or 3 minutes.
They already did. Killing regular mobs and "small" NMs (i.e. not the megaboss) is how you win Besieged.
My main beef with Besieged is that it's obvious that many people *want* to kill the megabosses, but it's just not feasible. If you could totally control everyone in the zone and get them to stop killing normal mobs and then focus on the MB for several hours you might be able to do it, but in reality, people who doesn't want the besieged to last several hours are going to destroy their army and the MB will retreat alive. They just have too much def/eva/hp to be taken down by 200 people in an hour (even once the right NMs are killed that make them vulnerable). And frankly, if they're not intended to be mortal, what are they doing there in the first place?

Actually, Fairy took down Medusa a few days ago, in less than an hour. There were 5 mobs left total, including no. 12. There were little groups scattered about, basically just keeping the mobs from going anywhere, but not killing them. Meanwhile, about 400+ people beat on Medusa for a little over 30 mins. She was 55% when there were 6 mobs left, and then we got down to 5 and everyone just held their mobs until Medusa was killed. I believe at the time we had over 600 people in the zone, weekends NA primetime helped with this. Basically everyone just swarmed her, with several WHM's and /WHM's going around casting Stona and raises. The fight didn't really last too terribly long, and I was really impressed that it worked out the way it did. Right as she died, they retreated and it was over, with a 200xp bonus.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

(1) The experience gain is very low for the amount of work involved.
(2) My parties/alliances can never do anything except kite and die or deal puny amounts of damage (even the big MNKs can't dish out adequate damage).
(3) There are no drops, no personal/party rewards, and it's extremely easy to cap out the experience/IS reward.

(1) The experience gain is low if you're a NIN, COR or RNG - because you are basically throwing gil away to do this. Otherwise its completely free EXP for flailing at mobs and running around casting Cure or Dia on stuff, take it and be happy. Its like a free escort quest several times a week. I honestly don't think SE is going to boost the EXP again. We already have Corsair's Roll, Sanction and Empress Band elsewhere, we have enough ways to get more EXP.

(2) Damage picks up a bit starting in the mid-60s if you're a melee.

(3) The three beastmen generals do have drops, no one knows what they're for yet apparently. As for the rest, I'd prefer to see Besieged stay a free-for-all and not get turned into some endgame thing subject to RMT, claim-stealing, HNMLSes and their inane little point systems. At the same time, I don't think it needs to become about greed and in-fighting. Its better off without drops.

[Nazo]

Interesting to hear what it's like on other servers, I really love besieged. Remora loses them from time to time and it can be quite exciting to be in one of the close ones. Even as a whm/nin with fairly crappy melee gear I can do fairly consistent 30-40 dmg on the regular beastmen mobs and have managed to deal the killing blow with 200+ dmg from weaponskills so I'd expect a 'proper' DD to do much better than that.

[tdh]

Personally I enjoy Besieged as RDM. We build a LS Alliance, I Refresh, Haste, Dispel, and nuke and gain my 1080 EXP/IS with pride.

I would however like to have the mob's Evasion reduced. They have a ton of HP, and above average DEF, but it's insane that a Lv.62 DRK with Acc+42 & Sushi can't hit these mobs. Hate's also an issue I think in Besieged. With all the people running around beating on mobs, I can see it's HP bar going down, but my Poison II pulls hate? Nukes are highly resisted, but for some reason the mob's getting beat on and it just wanders around after a Dispel or "low hate" spell?

Besieged would be a great place to get Skill Ups if the mobs Evasion wasn't through the roof. Seems like you require a Lv.75 job with Weapon Merits, Acc+40 or more, and Sushi to consistently hit Besieged mobs. That's my beef.

[Sabaron]

I would still love to see the /check feature... I mean.. they aren't all NM's. There's no reason we shouldn't be able to /check them to see if our party can kill them rather than randomly dying.

It's really hard to tell when stuff dies b/c of the lag, I guess, but I suppose I probably just couldn't tell because it has always taken just about an hour to complete Besieged-6.

I suppose, also, it might be a bad idea to make the XP worth getting... That would invite too many people to join in on a regular basis, making it rather...cramped.

[Legal Fish]

It's based on numbers really. If you have 700 people, and like at least 8/10ths of them are above level 70, you'll kill the general unless your server is especially bad. Personally, I've never had a problem with monsters dying. A little local direction can go a long way.

[Caspian]

If you have 700 people, and like at least 8/10ths of them are above level 70, you'll kill the general unless your server is especially bad.
Thats the kicker, usually you have about half, maybe a little more that are 70+, then probably a third or so in the 60's, everything else is lower level mages and people hoping to get a few free xp.
On someone like Gurfurlor, communication isn't always the problem, but rather a-holes and retards who continually cast magic on him and keep him near full hp.

[Jarre]

I have been on 1 besiged at lvl 35 PLD, (a LS friend took me there to see what it was like) it was a lvl 6 mamook assult. about 134 people were participating. I died pretty quickly but not until after I took off 4 health points from a mammok (at lvl 35 I was impressed!) I was raised by my LS friend and told to join other mages on the battlements. We all stood in a group up there and were able to target anyone who came close to the battlements and heal them. we put out a shout "Cure availiable K-7" and basically people who were low on health ran to us and we cured. No mammoks went up the stairs to us so we were rather safe. A good tactic I beleive here on garuda. We lasted the time and won this Besieged. It was tehn broken to me that until I reach 50 I'd get no exp. still was an experience and I only died once!.

[sigraph]

for a melee point of view:
for besieged its nice to be around ~60, for lvl6 60+ is the minimum if you want to hit those things espec mammols when they spamming eva bonus ability. im not sure for the lower lvl, but for those i guess a lvl~50 would be fine. you can go exp to ToAU areas around 50+ its a fair thing i say.

[Kaickul]

I dont think the main Boss is meant to be killed. All the bosses have ridiculous magic resistance, defense, evasion and AoE damage abilities. If you do kill them... all the more credit for you.

[raidenn]

Perhaps you're not using the right gear, mobs have mad evasion and defense. Not to mention ridiculous AOE attacks like Burn. Even at level 75, I still miss.

[Sabaron]

Perhaps you're not using the right gear, mobs have mad evasion and defense. Not to mention ridiculous AOE attacks like Burn. Even at level 75, I still miss.

Who me? I'm a Red Mage. I just try to keep my party alive and o'er-flowing with mana while Raising dead bodies. I think we made a mistake when we went the first time, and went with a Porrogo and didn't last very long. The Mamool Ja took the last 2 of our Serpent Generals, and the next time they came back they took our candy. The -20hp per tick Diaga effect is my favorite--what is that, Dia X? I didn't check the -DEF on it...probably should've. I'm just glad I hit 64 and can cast {Erase} now.

I've never actually tried to melee anything. Mostly, I throw enfeebles, DoT, buffs, cures, and raises--standard RDM stuff (except for the inexplicably high number of Raises). I also found that I can get hit by one of the Mamool Ja Level 6 General's spinny wheely thingies and not die if I have Stoneskin and Blink up... I don't know if the Blink did anything... I just know it disappeared along with Stoneskin and I had nice orange HP.

[nanatsu]

Is it true that the Megaboss NMs lose defense according to the number of normal monsters you kill? I've been told countless times that the way to defeat the megabosses is to kill enough of the other monsters first, so I've believed it. Just thought I'd ask to be sure.

[Caspian]

Is it true that the Megaboss NMs lose defense according to the number of normal monsters you kill? I've been told countless times that the way to defeat the megabosses is to kill enough of the other monsters first, so I've believed it. Just thought I'd ask to be sure.
I've never heard that, but I suppose its possible.
I know the PUP Troll NM gets weaker when you kill his puppets, so it would be plausible for the generals to become weaker the more regular mobs and other nm's you kill.

[Vyuru]

Is it true that the Megaboss NMs lose defense according to the number of normal monsters you kill? I've been told countless times that the way to defeat the megabosses is to kill enough of the other monsters first, so I've believed it. Just thought I'd ask to be sure.


I've heard that each Megaboss NM is keyed to certain other NMs. So by defeating them you can get the Megaboss to a point where you can actually deal damage.

For instance I've heard that Medusa is keyed to the other Lamia number X NMs that are around, Medusa cannot be hurt until they are dead.

Don't know if it's true, but that's what I've heard. I'm inclined to believe it though, it doesn't make much sense to me to take down all but 5 mobs before you can kill the megaboss, at that point why not end the besieged?

[raidenn]

I would avoid mobs like Sappers, War Wamouras, Aerial Torpedo and certain Puks. Those things are hell. Im actually working on Rng so I can at least attack those things from a distance.

[Caspian]

I've heard that each Megaboss NM is keyed to certain other NMs. So by defeating them you can get the Megaboss to a point where you can actually deal damage.
For instance I've heard that Medusa is keyed to the other Lamia number X NMs that are around, Medusa cannot be hurt until they are dead.
Don't know if it's true, but that's what I've heard. I'm inclined to believe it though, it doesn't make much sense to me to take down all but 5 mobs before you can kill the megaboss, at that point why not end the besieged?
I could easily believe that killing the NM's makes them easier, and killing most of them makes them defeatable, but its definately not all of them. The one time I saw a general killed, Lamia 12 was still alive. I believe it was at a point when any more mob deaths meant retreat. I definately know that killing no.12 in place of medusa would have sent them to retreat, the same thing has happened with Trolls, killing the last non-general NM sent them in retreat.
If you did have a server wide plan to kill all the NM's before killing the general, it would take serious coordination, since they'll redraw with more mobs if all the NM's are dead (not counting the general).

[Eohmer]

I fought Qulool Ja Ja for the first time today. YAY for me.

We were in the main area fighting Savages before it came out. Once he did, everyone went to attack it. I don't know if any other ones around the zone were downed before fighting it.

We didn't kill it, we just made him retreat with about 90% or so of his health left.

[Macht]

I wouldn't be surprised if the ideas about killing the MBs were true. After all part of the reason SE implimented them was because of people wanting stratedgy and a challenge of a mob to kill.

So you can see there it is like there are some tactics. I doubt it's the same tactics because that would just be to obvious. One idea is that possibly the Lamias X could resemble a certain aspect or status of the MB. It could be that the Lamia to weaken the MB is randomized among those numbered. Just seems there could be many possibilities.

I mean just look at EQ and the special fights and win conditions for them. I mean in one fight the win condition is that the 8 bosses have to die within seconds of eachother. In another the win condition is that 1 person out of the present group will get a special message, that message indicates them as being the one needing to accomplish a certain task. In yet another in order to survive the mobs onslaught a message warning of a comming assult is presented and you act in accordance to avoid taking a fatal hit. Hell in an even harder to accomplish win condition two groups that can't see eachother have to kill 2 mobs at the same time, while also having their members being randomly swapped between the two rooms.

So I would think that the MBs of FFXI could easily have varied conditions to make them more manageable. Also seriously on EQ I've seen Clans of 200 people capable of organizing themselves to acomplish a goal, so I know the potential to do it in an MMO is there. It's just a matter of people's attention span and ability to follow orders.

[Sabaron]

My biggest point is... with a party consisting of not 75th level uber-merit, geared to the hilt sky gods... I would like to be able to determine which puny, weakling, underling mobs my group can destroy. I would really, really, really, really, really like /check to be enabled on the rank and file.

[Karinya]

So I would think that the MBs of FFXI could easily have varied conditions to make them more manageable. Also seriously on EQ I've seen Clans of 200 people capable of organizing themselves to acomplish a goal, so I know the potential to do it in an MMO is there. It's just a matter of people's attention span and ability to follow orders.

But Besieged is not just your linkshell. The problem with trying to kill Besieged MBs is not just that it takes lots of players, coordination and time, but that even a few people who are trying to win the battle will do so long before you can finish the MB. You have to convince practically *everyone* in the zone to leave everything else alive and drag out Besieged for an extra half hour or more. Including people who have no language in common with you.

The rewards for killing the MB are so small compared to the extra effort required that a substantial number of people are almost always going to say "screw that, we're winning the battle NOW" and you can't stop them from doing so. Hell, I'm usually one of them. There's any number of fun HNM fights in the game but the besieged bosses aren't really one of them. Too much lag, spam and one-hit KOs.


This suggests three obvious lines of attack if SE wants to see more people defeating the MBs. One is to make them not take so damn long to kill; reducing the HP of a mob will make the fight shorter but not usually easier. This would make killing the MB a *good* way to win the besieged, instead of the slowest and most inefficient way possible.

The second is to make them give rewards big enough that everyone in the Besieged will want to see them killed rather than just win the fight with them retreating. (Half to two thirds of the people going after the MB while everyone else fights normal mobs isn't enough, because that's what we have now and the MBs almost always retreat alive.) At the moment I can't think of anything they could give that would be big enough to get players' interest without also being a major disruption to the economy (for example, giving everyone present 100k gil is probably a bad idea); giving out more IS would just devalue imperial currency as players are already running out of things to spend their IS on.

The third, of course, would be to make the beastmen never retreat while the MB is alive. This would force the MB to be killed for every level 6 besieged; it would often be the last mob standing but it *would* be killed.