Behind the scenes - Patches

[Mellowy]

I'd love if SE could inform us some more about their general work behind the patches.

I've for example always wondered if it took them 3 years to notice people wanted split BP timers, or 3 years for them to notice the game needed split BP timers, or if the work and testing itself took 1+ years of testing and tweaking.


This would then make it easier to understand how they work, and why excellent ideas you run across on boards don't seem to be implemented. Other interesting things such information could tell is is how much something has to be suggested to be implemented. Is it enough with 1 email of a good idea, or do they just pile them up in sorted bunches until they've got 1000 of a certain idea before they even start to consider it?


In other words, it would be nice if SE could tell us the work behind patches, from suggestion sent in, or SE survey/reading of boards to implementation with time and workload estimated.

[Toksyuryel]

I would love to know why this latest patch didn't include a continuation of the missions. Did not enough people send emails asking for it to be continued?

[Mhurron]

I would love to know why this latest patch didn't include a continuation of the missions. Did not enough people send emails asking for it to be continued? Because other stuff was included instead? These programmers do have homes and families to go to at the end of the day. They don't chain them to their desks.

They don't continue the missions based on people asking for it, they continue them based on a predetermined timeline.

[Legal Fish]

What I want to know is that do they really think not making FFXI with window options stopping any type of bot at all? It's not even funny, but sad, that they would even suggest such a thing.

[Mhurron]

Exactly what does that have to do with the original question?

[Legal Fish]

How about you explain to me how it doesn't relate to the question?

[Nazo]

Have SE actually answered any of the questions posed in this forum? It seems to have been going a while but I don't recall seeing any answers at all.

[Legal Fish]

Nope, not a single one ;o.

[Icemage]

Have SE actually answered any of the questions posed in this forum? It seems to have been going a while but I don't recall seeing any answers at all.
Square-Enix doesn't directly monitor this (or most other) FFXI forums. They do poll the administrators of various FFXI sites for feedback every once in a blue moon, and this forum is how that feedback is determined and passed on.


Icemage

[DakAttack]

Most of the posts in this forum have either been rediculous or a complaint, so there hasn't been much to answer.

[Legal Fish]

Most of the posts in this forum have either been rediculous or a complaint, so there hasn't been much to answer.

If you would of asked him if I thought SE adding next tier armor was "ridiculous", I'd perhaps think so. But look at this, Salvage. Same could be said for Fellowship NPCs, Chocobo Breeding, and the whole cut half-the-exp-out-the-game fix one or two years ago. What do you mean by ridiculous? Because I've seen things here that has been neither ridiculous or a complaint.

[Ziero]

If you would of asked him if I thought SE adding next tier armor was "ridiculous", I'd perhaps think so. But look at this, Salvage. Same could be said for Fellowship NPCs, Chocobo Breeding, and the whole cut half-the-exp-out-the-game fix one or two years ago. What do you mean by ridiculous? Because I've seen things here that has been neither ridiculous or a complaint.
Actually there have been numerous 'ridiculous' and 'complaint' topics posted in this forum, to deny that is to be flat out lieing. However that doesn't insinuate that *all* topics here were ridiculous in concept or simple complaints. And it's painfully obvious that SE *does* listen to it's player base even if they don't outright say 'this idea was brought to you by player XXX'. So as far as I'm concerned, judging by some of the things they've added into the game, yes, they do 'answer' questions in this topic.

[Mhurron]

How about you explain to me how it doesn't relate to the question? A question about patch cycle and planning has nothing to do with Windowing options of the client.

I've seen things here that has been neither ridiculous or a complaint. What is reasonable to a troll covers a much wider area then what most would consider reasonable questions.

[Legal Fish]

A question about patch cycle and planning has nothing to do with Windowing options of the client.

Clearly what is on their mind is important to this subject, let me quote the part where I'm speaking to directly.

This would then make it easier to understand how they work, and why excellent ideas you run across on boards don't seem to be implemented. Other interesting things such information could tell is is how much something has to be suggested to be implemented.

How many times does it need to be suggested before they finally are interested into putting it into the game? Why do they sometimes attempt to break the basic windower? What exactly are their thoughts on the matter, because I don't believe what Sage Sundi says.

Really now, who are you calling a troll. Your first response and every response in this thread has been nothing but negative banter

Because other stuff was included instead? These programmers do have homes and families to go to at the end of the day. They don't chain them to their desks.

A bit sassy there don't you think?

And I didn't say this section of the forum was full of great questions, I said its not all "trash". The reason why detailed questions are coming up is because history has taught up that the SE reps will respond more positively with detailed questions than vague ones.

Now about the OP...

[DakAttack]

The players don't know what they want, and if SE blindly complied with everything the players whined and complained about they might as well change their name to Blizzard.

[Legal Fish]

The players don't know what they want, and if SE blindly complied with everything the players whined and complained about they might as well change their name to Blizzard.

There is a strong difference between some "requests". About as much as a difference between guesses and educated guesses. And Blizzard, mostly anyway, doesn't comply to everyone on a whim. There are hardly any Blizzard fans here, so who are trying to bait anyway?

[Jei]

The players don't know what they want, and if SE blindly complied with everything the players whined and complained about they might as well change their name to Blizzard.
Well 2 games I can think of that devs really listen to players were UO and SWG. SWG they changed so many things when players complaint and end up breaking their own game. It's stupid.

[Gentoo]

The players don't know what they want, and if SE blindly complied with everything the players whined and complained about they might as well change their name to Blizzard....and own the other half of the MMOG market? (sorry Dak, I just couldn't resist applying tongue to cheek ).

Zeiro pretty much nailed it -- SE has answered questions brought up in these forums, just not by directly posting. The "Status of Defense Centered Jobs" thread -- one of the highest rated threads on this forum, was echoed on many other sites -- and clearly SE spent some time listening to that because we've seen their answer to Paladins in a few updates.

The issue is with the way SE answers concerns expressed player base. SE remains silent for the most part, and when they break that silence, the information they dole out is usally pablum. Something along the lines of "We're thinking about the possibility of doing something really cool for <insert job here>." All this really does is enforce the feeling in the playerbase they they're being ignored, and that SE is out of touch with them.

When (if) SE finally gets around to responding to concerns, even if they've done a spot-on job (splitting BP timers, for example), they first response is usually "Thanks, but took you so long?"

There was some discussion about the value of forums for MMO devs here (http://mythicalblog.com/blog/2006/03/23/forums-are-bad/), here (http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/10/05/players-who-post-posters-who-play/), and other places (http://mythicalblog.com/blog/2006/12/04/forums-are-misunderstood/). So although forums are debatable methods of soliciting valuable developer-player communication, there seems to be some consensus that dev-player communication is valuable if for nothing else than to keep your playerbase from feeling disenfranchised. The OP's request is straight forward -- give the playerbase a peek into how things get done at FFXI dev HQ. I am in heated agreement.

[Nazo]

Zeiro pretty much nailed it -- SE has answered questions brought up in these forums, just not by directly posting. The "Status of Defense Centered Jobs" thread -- one of the highest rated threads on this forum, was echoed on many other sites -- and clearly SE spent some time listening to that because we've seen their answer to Paladins in a few updates.
Yeah but if you ready the sticky at the top, SE clearly states that they will be directly answering questions players questions. The fact that nearly half a year later there's seemingly been no attempt to follow up on this doesn't say much for their respect for the community.

[Lmnop]

What is reasonable to a troll covers a much wider area then what most would consider reasonable questions.

You were being reasonable (we love that word so much) until I saw that. Saying that what people have posted right here on Dreams in Vana'diel is mostly trash is an insult to every good idea we've ever had. As someone mentioned in another thread (with an impeccable list to back it up, which I will not duplicate), S-E has implemented all the things that the player base has been clamoring for since well... game release.

To inch a little closer to original topic... I think S-E is moving more and more in this direction. About a year ago they announced that they would include sections in the update notes about how/why they came to the conclusion that so-and-so was needed or whatever. Basically, they said "we'll now start telling you why we're destroying your livelyhood or making this job insanely powerful." However, this "feature" was really only applied a couple times and we're back to them not explaining their reasoning behind giving Paladins Shield Mastery.

I think with this most recent thing about them trying to back up player events, it's their attempt at moving closer to the players. I don't have experience with other MMOGs, but most don't have their GMs and developers so far-removed from the players, do they?

[Toksyuryel]

The biggest problem was already pointed out somewhere before (too lazy to go back and quote it). No matter how much people beg for a feature or a fix or a change, once it's implimented there are very few thank yous. All of the clammoring instantly changes from "please impliment this" to "why did it take you this long to impliment this?" Each time they make an attempt to move closer to the player base, we push them back into their shells. If more people would make "Thank you, SE" threads and posts instead of "it's already too late" threads and posts, we might see this situation turn around.

From SE's position, they are just trying to run their business and make a high-quality game, and so they must balence player happiness with their vision in order to keep people playing while still being true to the game. They will always pay the most attention to those that cry the loudest, and in every case where they've listened to us and actually did something genuinely good, more people cry "too late" than cry "thanks", which sends them a messages we don't want to be sending them. Granted, sometimes it is justified, and the question really does need to be asked generally, but this isn't an ideal perfect world and so we have to play a different angle to get the right response.

Wow that was really long and rambling. I guess what I'm really trying to say is... try to say thank you more often.

[Mellowy]

I'm actually one of those who do complain when they do add things that are good.

Why? Because of exactly the reasons already said here.
"How could it take so long to see that BP timer had to be split and then be added?" or how about "The summoning magic patch was a good idea but they completely failed at the implementation"

Anyone seen summoners use spirits in experience parties or on HNM? Nope. They aren't used at all. 3-4 years since they were added and SE *seem* to still be ignoring them as if they never were meant to exist in the first place.

This is why I'm interested in hearing more information. Did it infact take them 2 years to implement split BP timers? Or did it take 1.9 years of suggestions and 0.1 year of work?
How do they prioritize work? First come first serve? Most popular job first? The poor SMN job that is the only job not played as intended but whored out as WHM mark II as first priority? Most suggestions sent in?

The questions are endless, and just some more information about the general way they work with suggestion -> evaluation -> implementation -> testing -> release would be very helpful in not hating them for ignoring their players.


If I was the boss at Patch Department at SE, I'd let people see what is coming in the next patch, and let people send in opinions about it.

"Thank you SE, great idea!"
or
"What the hell are you thinking? If you add a mage armor set with only +MAB and crap on it, it will be pointless for WHM and SMN." (True in regards to salvage armor set)



A MMO needs both players and developers to work together. This lack of information SE runs with is just making them add things people dislike because they didn't let us see what was coming and comment on it.

But yea, since I can't make them better myself, I'd atleast want to see what they do so I can adapt. If I need to get 500 people to send in a specific suggestion to have a chance, I'd encourage people to do so. Right now I don't know if it is enough with just 1 good idea sent in or if they need to be flooded.

All I really want is some behind the scenes information about how you get your suggestion to get implemented, because I have sent in about 10 or 20 ways of fixing summoner atleast and all I've seen were split BP timer (I would have personally split it in 5 groups not 2) and summoning magic (I would have personally made it over the skill level when a BP was aquired, and not over the current job levels cap. I.e. 5 levels after you got a BP, it would have capped its potency, and not like now that require you to have +30 skill on gear to cap anything at all).

[Toksyuryel]

"What the hell are you thinking? If you add a mage armor set with only +MAB and crap on it, it will be pointless for WHM and SMN." (True in regards to salvage armor set)
FALSE in regards to salvage armor. Morrigan can only be equipted by Black Mage, Red Mage, and Blue Mage. Marduk is the set for White Mage, Summoner, and Bard. Next time try actually reading. These sets are designed to heighten specific functions. Morrigan is a powerful offensive mage set, while Marduk is a powerful support mage set, and the jobs that can equip them reflect this distinction.

[Mellowy]

Next time try actually reading.

I don't read about things that are useless. I don't know a thing about PLD armors, WAR armors etc.

I do know that ALL armors in salvage are completely useless for my job, SMN.

Really, all they do is give me MP....
Would you think the melee would drool if they got a "Melee god armor" that gave a whooping +10% HP and nothing else? (oh wait, it can give +10 parrying skill too, since SE likes giving out stuff like string skill, summoning magic skill and healing magic skill.)

Really, the only way I'd ever wear any of those salvage armors on my SMN, would be if I couldn't afford austere set and couldn't quest my AF. That is how useless I consider it to be. And I'm not alone, all SMNs I know think the same, and the WHMs I know are all "Hmmm, no stats that I really wanted".

Although most of this is irrelevant for the topic, one should almost make a new one about how they should post updates ahead of time and let people send inputs because SE seem to add armors that some jobs wouldn't ever wear, and if that isn't a sign that they are biased and don't have a clue, I don't know what.

[Drive]

Hey as a Bard that Marduk is one of the best things that happened to me in the gear department. Other then Mazurka working at Flee speed but sadly that didn't last long.

[Emurei]

I don't read about things that are useless. I don't know a thing about PLD armors, WAR armors etc.

I do know that ALL armors in salvage are completely useless for my job, SMN.There is 17 other jobs besides SMN you know. And 3 new jobs that they got to tweek out and bring it up to speed with the rest of the Jobs. Than there are the testing, they'll not going to make a change and not test it out best they can than release it. They average 1 update per quarter about, and with then numerous other content in this game for most levels. FFXI has more content for than any other MMORPG out there, period. Shits going to get backed up.

I myself tend to key in on SAM items and gear that goes along with how I play. But I still read everything cause I have friends that play and I like to know when they get any neat new toy or ability buff/nerf. Heck this past update that really made SAM beefy and caught me off guard. I thought SAM is a done deal, I learned to live with and refine the Job in it's current state the best I can, now its like hmm 2 new abities and no more macro space ;_; And now with the PLD update, awsome glad SE is giving them some love. I still think SE need to complete the 3 new Jobs but in time they'll get it right. They'll listen to us, and act on the "right" request not "every" request it'll take time but it'll happen :p

[Gobo]

I do know that ALL armors in salvage are completely useless for my job, SMN.
Really, all they do is give me MP....
Would you think the melee would drool if they got a "Melee god armor" that gave a whooping +10% HP and nothing else? (oh wait, it can give +10 parrying skill too, since SE likes giving out stuff like string skill, summoning magic skill and healing magic skill.)
Really, the only way I'd ever wear any of those salvage armors on my SMN, would be if I couldn't afford austere set and couldn't quest my AF. That is how useless I consider it to be. And I'm not alone, all SMNs I know think the same, and the WHMs I know are all "Hmmm, no stats that I really wanted".
Although most of this is irrelevant for the topic, one should almost make a new one about how they should post updates ahead of time and let people send inputs because SE seem to add armors that some jobs wouldn't ever wear, and if that isn't a sign that they are biased and don't have a clue, I don't know what.

You really should look at the set again. The head is pretty much the be all end all for Physical and Magical Avatar Acc problems. The Feet are also not terrible if you don't have Smn. Pigashes (or evasive mobs), or want Magic Acc and don't have Nashira Feet (People really under estimate the Merit BPs, epically on mobs that resist physical attacks/use "physical shield". Merit BP>Nether Blast)

Anyway, back on topic. In terms of Behind the scenes, while not necessarily about a patch, I would like them to explain the delay/cancellation (it they have been canceled) of Chocobo Racing, The Coliseum and The Pit. All 3 sounded like interesting/fun ideas, but its been so long since we have heard anything about them.