A monk's opinnion over giving Pup Asuran Fists

[ValiantRedemption]

My LS the other day was having a discussion about puppetmaster getting Asuran Fists as Hand to Hand is their best skill and they do not get any Weapon Skill that needs to be quested.
Giving Pup master a B skill or higher will give them the ability to have 250+ hand-to-hand skill(currently a pup can have 250skill with merits and items) which would allow them to be able to quest for Asuran Fists. Many people in my LS voted against Pups getting Asuran Fists because it was considered a monk thing. However, other people said that hand-to-hand was the only weapon skill that only one job could use.
So, with that said, I would like to hear the forum's opinnion about letting Puppetmaster get Asuran Fists.

[Mog]

If you want Asuran Fists, grab monk. While pups have a decent hand-to-hand skill, that's not the job's primary focus. Maybe giving the puppet a certain weaponskill though, that would be a good idea.

[Raydeus]

The only reason PUP should be able to get Asuran is because they don't have any other fighting skill they can use, but if that's the case then they should have their skill rating raised to B.

I still wouldn't like seeing PUP's getting it but since they can't get anything else...

[tdh]

I'm of the mind that only MNK should gain access to Asuran Fists. That having been said, I've also stated in previous posts that PUP should be given a WS Quest. Just not for the PUP themselves, but a Quest to give the Automaton a WS. Basically give them an Remote with a latent on them. They have to break the latent like everybody has to with their WS Weapons, and then fight a NM to get WS for the Automaton.

My plan at the time was to give PUP a means to participate in Lv.3 Skillchain. Allow the PUP, with the Automaton, create a 3 person Lv.3 skillchain and close for decent damage.

[Jei]

I'm with Asuran a mnk onry. It just feels that way, no reason for me really.

[Raydeus]

Hmm... PUPs do get Dragon Kick so the lvl3 SC thing is already covered.

So maybe a quested lvl3 Auto WS would work better indeed.

[tdh]

Hmm... PUPs do get Dragon Kick so the lvl3 SC thing is already covered.

So maybe a quested lvl3 Auto WS would work better indeed.They do? I thought they got Howling Fists, but not Dragon Kick.

EDIT: Confirmed

PUP does get Dragon Kick, but at Lv.75. I had no idea this was added. I thought they required you to have an A in the Skill to get the Lv.225 WS.

Dragon Kick Wiki page (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Dragon_Kick)

[BurningPanther]

I'd be all for giving PUP Asuran Fists. As a RDM, I have just enough skill to get access to Savage Blade, and I've heard a few times from "dedicated" Sword jobs(PLD, WAR), that I have no business having it. The way I see it, PUP and Asuran Fists is to Hand to Hand fighters(all two jobs), what RDM is to Sword swingers: Getting a little something extra to augment their primary abilities.

Makes more sense them something like, say, DRK, getting access to it, eh?

[Tipsy]

Two words; Hell no.

Asuran Fists is nothing spectacular, damage wise. Would be pretty pointless given PUP's crappy melee stats (STR/DEX/VIT). They do good enough with Dragon Kick, giving them Asuran Fists really wouldn't do much for their damage, it would just ruin a tradition.

[Icemage]

Asuran Fists is totally out of flavor for PUP.

I would prefer to have Square-Enix give Puppetmasters A rank Club skill instead of trying to make them sort of jumped up pseudo-mage-DD. We don't have any jobs that use clubs in combat right now, and it would make a good fit for PUPs IMO.


Icemage

[Hantz]

We don't have any jobs that use clubs in combat right now, and it would make a good fit for PUPs IMO.


The AF weapon could be a juggling pin...

[BurningPanther]

Asuran Fists is totally out of flavor for PUP.
I would prefer to have Square-Enix give Puppetmasters A rank Club skill instead of trying to make them sort of jumped up pseudo-mage-DD. We don't have any jobs that use clubs in combat right now, and it would make a good fit for PUPs IMO.
Icemage
Good point. Actually, I think I agree with this more.

Though I don't think that Asuran Fists is out of flavor for PUP, so long as PUP has H2H skill.

[Karinya]

I believe their AF weapon is actually the turbo animator; although I don't know what effect it actually has compared to a normal animator, it might be the only AF "weapon" that is still used at 75 (if only because it isn't a real weapon).

Anyway, I agree with tdh's suggestion that they should get questable *puppet* ws (or new heads/frames that have new ws built in) rather than questable personal WS. The requirements for the quests could be tied to the puppet's melee/magic/ranged skill to indirectly keep it level-restricted and therefore it wouldn't be something that has to be balanced for 1-75 the way new attachments are. (I don't know why SE decided not to put level requirements on attachments but it's probably too late to change that now.) Currently it seems that PUP's power doesn't rise sharply at high levels the way every other job's does.

I would prefer for every PUP to be able to do all three quests to maintain the versatility of their jobs, the same way they can get all three frames/heads (and people with multiple A or B weapons can do multiple WS quests).

[Jei]

As a RDM, I have just enough skill to get access to Savage Blade, and I've heard a few times from "dedicated" Sword jobs(PLD, WAR), that I have no business having it.
Savage blade is not that good damage wise tho... It's just better than fast blade. I don't think PLD even use this WS for damage.

[SharMarali]

Personally, I think it's sheer laziness on SE's part that they didn't introduce some NEW weapons for the new classes. PUP should have been a whip-wielding class, IMHO. Instead, they gave them crappy H2H skills and nothing to make them stand apart from other DDs to facilitate their PT invitations. Likewise, I think CORs should have gotten a new TYPE of gun (perhaps gunblades?) instead of using the guns that were already in existance.

The last time SE released new jobs, they also released two new classes of weapons (Katana and Great Katana) that had never existed before, and they took a weapon that nobody *really* used (polearm) and assigned it to a new job. So why this time did they make the new classes limp along with weapons that were already out there and being put to BETTER use by other jobs than the new jobs would make of them?

[Aeolus]

They only get Martial Arts III at 75 so they probably would get TP faster over time using a Club to be fair. Their main focus is their pup doing dmg tho I would imagine so why would you go and give them Mnks best weaponskill?

[Legal Fish]

I'm not a Monk but ;o...
I think PUPs should get Asuran Fists. Not just Asuran Fist, but B Hand to Hand Skill. This is the strongest reason why they are being completely ignored in higher level parties. I'll list my reasoning numbers.

1. This doesn't make them anywhere as powerful as MNKs. They do not get Kick Attacks and their Martial Art traits are far weaker. MNKs will remain much stronger than PUPs, so this isn't even a concern.

2. This will still keep the focus on the Automaton in the HNM situation. B skill is very weak and will simply not be worth the meleeing of the strongest HNMs.

3 In other situations PUP will remain the strongest. Managing the PUP to its full potential can be difficult if the PUP is focusing on doing melee damage. It would harder than a RDM doing the same thing and focusing on being a supportive caster.

4. I believe every job in the game should have a WS-Quest. Its one of the many rites of passages, like Subjob and Genkei.

There is that one problem that the weapon type for the quest is Knuckles, which is(with one exception) pretty much anti-PUP.

[Kildem]

Asuran fists = Monk.

[Thoris]

i Myself am a pup and i am loving it. Its a great job, and i am always taking hate away from the tanks because with my high agl and my ranged auto i am doing 120+ lv 2 skill chain at lv 20. Now to be honest my H2h skill is capped and i am still missing alot. I have the most acc and evaision gear, food and also have battle gloves. But i still miss; why becuase of my C skill i should have B+ skill in h2h. And with asuran fist i say we should get it or get another final weapon skill. I say get a weapon skill that the auto joins in with you.

the problem is at lower lvs we do Sick dmg but once we get past lv 55 our dmg goes down, because we miss to much.

also the job combo i am using and i love is Pup/Nin i have s much dex and agi that most mobs miss me 2-5 times.

Also i say we should get nin/mnk kind of gear. The whole mage armor is not working for us.

[Akashimo]

I agree that they should have released a new class for the new jobs. Given, I haven't gotten high enough for Asuran, I still feel that should remain monk onry. Also, if they ever give pup higher than a C rating in club with possible hexa access, alot of automations are gonna get punted >_>;;; Anyways, if they were to make a new weapon class, I was thinking of something like a main hand throwing weapon type of class seeing how the automation is *supposed* to apart of their damage(read: automation = ignored dmg, player = lolpup), A new class of weapons might help their outlook. Also, better control of the tp to make some sc, even a auto + pup lvl 3 combo.
As for armor.... why do they get Seer's set while rdm and blu don't?!? I'd expect them to get something like a thf or cor's selection of armor. Honestly, the image of pup needs to be remade >_>;;;;;

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I don't follow the logic saying Asuran Fists should MNK only.

Detonator used to be RNG-only and whether or not you wish to question the value of that WS, it no longer remains exclusive to RNG, but is available to COR as well now. Emperyal Arrow is still exlusive to to RNG, but SAM is also quite proficient with a bow, so I don't really understand why.

There are plenty of jobs that get access to those questable WS that never would full take advantage. The WARs that look beyond Rampage are few to start with, but they have a range of questable weaponskill and they're also for what would be considered the best weapon from another job. So where's the outcry that WAR can get so many of them?

They are the weapons master of the game but still, following the logic of this thread, Axes would be thier thing and only they should have the axe WS, which would be screwing over BST quite a bit.

PUP should be given some manner of questable WS. In fact, I think all three of the newer jobs are due an exclusive WS.

[Kildem]

My opinion could maybe be wrong but here it is.
A pup is a monk with a puppet that fights by her/his side.
A monk is a stronger pup. (strong as in, if the pup would have no puppet but just his hand to hand skills)
If you give asuran fists to a pup then they would probably become stronger than monks, since they would acquire the most powerful hand to hand weaponskill ever AND they will have their lvl 71 puppet by their sides. I think the fact that pup have no access to asuran fists is fair. If they want asuran fists, go and level monk. Ranger corsair is a different thing. Corsair is a refresher/support job. Ranger is a devastating damage dealer, not a refresher at all. But a pup lvl 75 with asuran fists and an automaton lvl 75 fighting with him would be stronger than a monk. I know, level doesn't mean anything, i have seen noobs at lvl 75 claiming they rock and blabla.
You don't get asuran fists? Too bad, you get a puppet that can cast almost everything and can even tank sometimes. Be happy.

[UnnamedGalka]

Asuran Fists is totally out of flavor for PUP.
I would prefer to have Square-Enix give Puppetmasters A rank Club skill instead of trying to make them sort of jumped up pseudo-mage-DD. We don't have any jobs that use clubs in combat right now, and it would make a good fit for PUPs IMO.
Icemage

I, too, have always thought that this game needed a melee job that uses clubs regularly.

Forget H2H...it would've been neat for PUP to have an A+ in club skill. Give them Hexa Strike and access to a wide variety of powerful clubs.

Though, if SE had gone this route, they'd have probably toned down the automation, making it function not too terribly different than a DRG's wyvern.

[Akashimo]

I, too, have always thought that this game needed a melee job that uses clubs regularly.
Forget H2H...it would've been neat for PUP to have an A+ in club skill. Give them Hexa Strike and access to a wide variety of powerful clubs.
Though, if SE had gone this route, they'd have probably toned down the automation, making it function not too terribly different than a DRG's wyvern.
>_>; Hexa whm onry!

[UnnamedGalka]

>_>; Hexa whm onry!

Heh heh heh.

I've always thought that Hexa Strike was far too good of a WS to be wasted in the hands of a mage. And this is coming from a WHM who <3's his Hexa.

[Akashimo]

Heh heh heh.

I've always thought that Hexa Strike was far too good of a WS to be wasted in the hands of a mage. And this is coming from a WHM who <3's his Hexa.
I honestly believe a good geared whm can rank up some nice numbers with Hexa in a merit party. >_>; Though the good gear for this is severly lacking in variety and not that many options for DD hammers ;-;

[Amele]

I honestly believe a good geared whm can rank up some nice numbers with Hexa in a merit party. >_>; Though the good gear for this is severly lacking in variety and not that many options for DD hammers ;-;

uh, what? darksteel maul+1, seawolf cudgel, searobber cudgel, brass jadagna(+1), morgenstern, purgatory mace, perdu wand..

whitemage has an excellent selection of DD weapons. whitemage has access to lots of all jobs +accuracy gear (whitemage is a little lacking in +attack gear, but could probably find enough to scrape by) has the largest amount of haste available to -any- job (being capable of hitting the haste cap in gear *and* having haste spell natively) and has a respectable amount of +str available, between all jobs gear and a few select JSE/AF pieces. if whm had an A- weapon most would probably front line, same as blue mage.

why doesn't whitemage melee? why doesn't ninja sub whm and debuff and cure? (it's an inefficient use of a job that's capable of doing -so much more- in a different role).

[Akashimo]

True, but those are all the obivous stuff. But most of the items are 1) nm drops that can be harder to get or 2) way expensive. If they gave A- to whm for club and a naturally higher mp with cure skill mattering, whm could pull off dding and healing at the same time. Though would depend on the mob itself and the party setup.

[haazim]

When it comes to puppetmaster its good to recognize a few things. first pup is pet job. our DD is combined with our pets DD.This in my opinion is the reason the H2H skill is so low and why our attack speed is not as high as a monk. I am a monk 75, and also puppet 73. if my puppetmaster could attack as fast as my monk and had asuran fist as well the job would be insanely overpowered tbh. with war sub id be able to effectively have triple attack with my puppets mele. also some of the puppets attack are much stronger than a monks single attack (i.e. ranger frame, and black mage frames) so my pup/war with double attack asuran fists and puppet adding another attack per round for triple attack ad also doing BLM DD is called crazy pwng. we would rape everything in sight lol. Id settle for better attack stats on puppet even if they keep the WS the same, and dont adjust the attack speed.

[haazim]

double post sorry

[garg]

First of all, some things I feel compelled to reply to:

However, other people said that hand-to-hand was the only weapon skill that only one job could use.Not true, Blade: Ku and Tachi: Kasha are also specific to NIN and SAM specifically.

I thought they required you to have an A in the Skill to get the Lv.225 WS.
Although you saw on your own that this was incorrect, I'd like to point another instance where it is true:
Spinning Slash - DRK and PLD get it, PLD has B, WAR has B+ and doesn't get it

Likewise, I think CORs should have gotten a new TYPE of gun (perhaps gunblades?) instead of using the guns that were already in existance.
Hexaguns were already in existance? Although I think I know what you mean.

I don't follow the logic saying Asuran Fists should MNK only.

Detonator used to be RNG-only and whether or not you wish to question the value of that WS, it no longer remains exclusive to RNG, but is available to COR as well now. Emperyal Arrow is still exlusive to to RNG, but SAM is also quite proficient with a bow, so I don't really understand why.

There are plenty of jobs that get access to those questable WS that never would full take advantage. The WARs that look beyond Rampage are few to start with, but they have a range of questable weaponskill and they're also for what would be considered the best weapon from another job. So where's the outcry that WAR can get so many of them?

They are the weapons master of the game but still, following the logic of this thread, Axes would be thier thing and only they should have the axe WS, which would be screwing over BST quite a bit.

PUP should be given some manner of questable WS. In fact, I think all three of the newer jobs are due an exclusive WS.
A few things to point out here:
1) SAM is C+ Archery, RNG is B Marksmanship. That's not exactly a comparison of equals, SAM never reaches the 250 skill required to perform the quest for Empyreal Arrow.
2) I hardly see how WAR would be considered the master of Axes over BST, given that they have an equal A- rating with one handed axes and only BST gets the relic axe. SE likes to give us more options than the players often choose, not restrict things based on players' choices of optimization.
3) You're against keeping Asuran Fists as MNK-only, but you believe that the AU Jobs each deserve their own new WS? I surely hope you mean that with every intention of taking some WS away from them now that they currently share with other jobs on an "exclusive level" (such as Detonator and COR as you mentioned earlier) (with the possible exception of PUP, see below).


Having said that, I agree that Asuran Fists should remain solely with MNKs. Nothing against PUPs, but I would prefer to see them quest for an improved frame of sorts or a new WS for each frame or just some mega-attachment, something along those lines.

I don't believe in gaining things simply for the sake of not having them. If PUP needs to quest a WS just to say they've done it, I say raise their Club from C- to C+ so they can quest Black Halo. Whether or not they use it, they would have a questable WS that way without changing much about the job at all.

I believe that SE did not intend for PUP to have the power of a B skill along with the versatility and power of the Automaton. Don't forget that SE already raised PUP HTH skill once and gave them access to Dragon Kick when they did so. I believe SE considered this choice carefully because they want the growth of the job to come mainly from the growth of the Automaton through attachments and the WHM and BLM heads they promised a while back.

On the flip side of the discussion, would be lowering the required skill level to obtain Asuran Fists. If it were lowered to a 230 (C+ = 230 at 75) or 240 (B- = 240 at 75) instead of 250, PUP could still obtain the WS without having the sudden increase of 25 skill points at 75 (max of 5 or 15 instead). This would limit the performance of a PUP using Asuran Fists as their accuracy may still suffer and result in missed hits and thus not gaining the full effect of the WS that MNK gains, resulting in MNK still having the appearance of "Masters of the Martial Arts."

[Omni]

sorry double again.

[Omni]

1) SAM is C+ Archery, RNG is B Marksmanship.

RNG has A- in marks and archery.

but ya, keep a.fists with mnk. dont make pup into another typical melee. improve the automaton more and actually make a pup do some puppeteering.

[Malacite]

I'm all for giving PUP a boost to their hand to hand skill rating, but leave Asuran Fists to the dedicated martial arts job.

[haazim]

Yea you know asuran fist is awesome i love when im on monk, but i'd really rather have something else specific for my puppet to quest and earn. hopefuly one for H2H, and another for Dagger.