Scorpion Arrows 49-59? I don't think so...

[Sabaron]

I would just like to note that according to major woodworking guides, that doing Scorpion Arrows from -10 is not a good idea unless your profit margin is absolutely insane.

First of all, getting a point of skill is worse than doing Alchemy 87-88. I did 2 crystal stacks and got a total of 0.1 skill... That is not viable at all in any book. This on a strong day for my crystal. If it was a weak day for my crystal, there is no possible way I could even attempt this synthesis....

You cannot skip the lower 50s level synths. It's just not productive.

First I figured I was just unlucky, but when I finished my 6th crystal stack having only gotten to 50, I shouted profanities into my linkshell and went off in search of lower level synths.

Please don't follow the guide. It's wrong..

[Caspian]

Yeah, I used the guide for about 20 levels, then just started using mysterytour and ffxiah on my own. Also use wiki to find what can be bought from npc's and help save some cost. I didnt do anything that was 10 levels above me until I had both +skill pieces of equipment and used adv. synth imagery. Even then I was breaking about 50% of my attempts, but was getting skillups on the majority of successes for a level or two.
Hold on and I'll look and see what I did at that level.

[Sabaron]

I already found it...

Oak Pole.

Not because it's a nice item, but NIN need to exchange it to get their AF Pants, so they sell well and never come back on the market. I need just enough to make scorpion arrow not suck.

[Caspian]

yeah, was oak poles.

[Jei]

I thought you meant rangers shooting it xD

[Haggai]

I did Scorpion Arrows from 49-59, but the profit margin (at the time) was HUGE. I used advanced support and had my gloves. Even though I broke many times, I still made a small profit.

[Icemage]

The break rate on Scorpion Arrows is not as bad as you'd think - and the materials are not very expensive as well as plentiful, particularly if you have the Bonecraft skill to make the Scorpion Arrowheads yourself.

Unlike Alchemy ammo synths, Woodworking ammo synths are both very forgiving and pretty good for skillups. The guides are very much correct. 49-59 is a great range for Scorpion Arrows.

P.S. Oak Poles suck. Non-stacking + pain in the butt materials (Oak lumber? Feh) + hardly anyone uses the bloody things except up and coming ninjas.


Icemage

[Haggai]

The break rate on Scorpion Arrows is not as bad as you'd think - and the materials are not very expensive as well as plentiful, particularly if you have the Bonecraft skill to make the Scorpion Arrowheads yourself.
And if you're not making your own Arrowwood Lumber at Carpenter's Landing, shame on you. Buying logs for 15-22gil, using Lumberjack, You can make multiple stacks in no time, for just a few crystals. Plus at 49, you should get some good HQs, so that helps. There's nothing like getting a full stack with one crystal and three logs.

You can do it at the regular Woodworking guild, but you have to go to Justi's Furniture (or the Landing) for Bundling Twine. Plus, it seems like CL has a higher supply, and cheaper prices.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

I did Scorpion Arrows from 49 to 59. Even knowing about Oak Pole's connection to NIN AF2, I'd still do Scorpion Arrows for the early levels. Oak Pole sells maybe once a day. But then, I also made my own arrowheads.

From 49 to 51, you'll break a lot. But since the ingredients are so cheap, starting this at 49 is still viable. It might not be the option you like, but it's a viable option nonetheless.

[Icemage]

Not to mention it's even easier these days. Moghancement : Earth is laughably easy and inexpensive to get and power up, so you can try the synth over and over and over without losing as much materials as previously.

Ammo synths are, and remain, the best levelling recipes for woodworking at virtually every level where they are available. They're generally easy to sell, stackable, and most have very easy material requirements compared to other synths in their range.


Icemage

[Sabaron]

I'm sorry but 6 crystal stacks for 1.1 point of skill is a horrible skill up rate. As I said, it was easier to do Alchemy 87-88 than to do Woodworking 49-50. I have points on my Alchemy Contract so I'm not getting Lumberjack. Woodworking, for me, is a support craft. I cannot make my own arrowheads and I had to wait 2 days to get a hold of the ones I have, so at least on Asura, they're not as common as you're suggesting--when they come on market they are quickly swallowed up as the arrows are profitable even at large market volume.

Oak Poles sell 3-5 per day, not 1 a day. NIN is so popular now as a main that there's no shortage of pantsless Ninja to go around. I made 12 poles and they should hopefully be gone within 2 weeks. Since I'm now at 51, (-8) I can do Scorpions well on a strong crystal day with guild support for the next 8 points and be done with woodworking. Of course, for other people 2 points of Oak poles means somewhere around 24-36 oak poles which may, indeed, not be very cool. The break rate doesn't concern me as the profit margin is very nice and the ingredients are all cheap. What does concern me is that 6 crystal stacks takes a good long while to use up and I feel that my time was wasted with this synthesis. I'm sticking with my recommendation that you not go -10 on Scorpions if you can avoid it. In the time I wasted going from 49 to 50, if I had instead chosen a closer synthesis, I would've more than likely made 3 points of skill instead. I may put off Scorpions further still as I can make Lightning/Ice arrows or the new Paralysis Arrows for a point as I can craft the heads. The thing that originally put me off of them was the Steel, Cermet, and Imperial Cermet respectively used to craft the bolt heads. Once I looked at the margins though, I can easily sell these bolts for a profit though they are not half as popular as scorpion (which is Ok since I'm not making 5 Quiver-stacks). The arrows sell on Asura (off AH for Profit) for less than the taru charges for them in Port Windy and undercutting a merchant on a higher end product is a sign that a synth will be viable. Of course most woodworkers probably don't have access to these bolt heads except via purchase where they can be prohibitively expensive in comparison to Scorpion.

My point basically:

If you can avoid Scorpion at -10... Do so. If you can't, you'll probably be ok, but the infrequent 0.1s and crystal breaks may lead to high levels of controller-smashing frustration which may end up costing you $30 when you throw your controller at the wall...

[Taskmage]

When the guides were written the profit from scorpion arrows was probably much better and the demand much higher, as rangers were much more in style back then and some of the alternative ammo for higher levels didn't exist.

I think I used scorpion arrows to get through most of my 50s and then switched to chests and ebony lumber to cap. If you want to avoid arrows entirely, chests are probably the next thing for you after oak poles. I AHed mine for a small profit—I wasted nothing but time back then—but the ingredients for dirt cheap so you could probably just NPC them and not even feel your wallet get lighter.

[Sabaron]

No, I'm not looking to avoid them entirely. My goal is speedy levelling of Woodworking craft without spending more than I make back even if my money is tied up in assets (which can sometimes be a good thing) rather than liquid. Therefore, -10 does not meet the goal and becomes unworkable. -5 to -7 on Scorpion, however, is quite enticing as the stack sizes for arrows and Scorpions' quiverability make them very attractive.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Oak Poles sell 3-5 per day, not 1 a day.
I was basing my sales rate on Lakshmi Jeuno AH activity. Perhaps business is better on your server, or perhaps you are looking at AH activity in other cities as well. One thing I did notice with the Jeuno AH activity on Lakshmi for Oak Poles is that the last 25 sales are all by the same seller, and the last sale was pretty recent. If you plan to do Oak Poles for skills up on Lakshmi, it seems you have a competitor for that market.

NIN is so popular now as a main that there's no shortage of pantsless Ninja to go around. I made 12 poles and they should hopefully be gone within 2 weeks.
This is probably where my approach to crafting is different from yours. I'd rather do 6 dozen attempts at Scorpion arrows for only 1.1 skill ups (which, by the way, I think I did a bit better than that when I did that stretch) then have to wait 2 weeks to do another dozen attempts at skill ups.

You didn't mention image support. I assume you got advanced image support. Is that correct?

BTW, I thought about a skill up stretch which would compare well to doing Scorpion Arrows from 49 to 59. In Clothcraft, Silk Cloth caps at 53. I did Hunters Cotton (caps at 63) when I hit 53. Break rate was high, and thus skill ups were slow. Currently, my mule only has CC up to 55, mainly due to the fact that it's a pain to collect the Beetle Shells and make the necessary Carapace Powder. If I was unable to make the scorpion arrowheads and they weren't readily available on the market, I could see this recipe being similarly frustrating as Hunters Cotton.

[Sabaron]

I was standing right next to Ulicille(?) using Adv. Support (as always) facining south, the directon of earth on part of Lightningsday through part of Lightsday.

[Icemage]

Even at 6 stacks for 1.1 skill (which seems just like bad luck to me), look at your material cost:

- Arrowwood Lumber is ridiculously easy to make. Wind crystals are a pittance, arrowwood is easy to get. Effective cost even without Lumberjack, with level 49 unmodified skill in Woodworking, turns out to be probably 1000 gil per stack.

- Insect Fletchings are a pain if they're in short supply, but a quick round of death and destruction on beetles of your choice will produce any number of insect wings which you can then turn around and hand to a level 52+ clothcrafter who can make the fletchings for you. Considering they are produced in multiples of 6, this is not an arduous process no matter how many stacks you want. Even buying these at market price generally doesn't set you back more than 1000-2000 gil per stack.

- Scorpion Arrowheads are similar to insect fletchings in difficulty. A quick trip the Maze of Shakrami either with pickaxes or a THF subjob while beating up on the weak scorpions in there will give you all the scorpion claws you'll need. Again, 6x produced per synth. Finding a level 53+ bonecrafter to make the arrowheads for you isn't a chore either. Purchasing these on the AH is relatively inexpensive too - maybe 3000 gil per stack.

- Earth crystals you should have coming out of your ears, or just buy them on the AH for maybe 1000 gil per stack.

Sure, if you aren't willing to do some legwork, it's difficult, but the materials are extremely easy to acquire compared to what you need at later levels. I also don't like waiting 2 weeks just because I want to save a bit of gil - those extra inventory slots are worth more to me than a few thousand gil.


Icemage

[LyonheartLakshmi]

I did Insect Fletchings 10 levels early as well. An effective gap of 7 levels (10 minus 3 from advanced support) certainly isn't optimal. But sometimes, it's competitive with the alternatives at hand.

Edit: wow, I made this post at 4:42 PM EST, after Caspian's post down the page. How did this post end up here?

[Sabaron]

I don't store items on my main. I have mules in all 4 early cities (not Aht Urgan), so I don't generally have any inventory problems. I have Wind and Earth crystals coming out my ears because of Sapling Harvests so the crystals are basically free. I've got the poles on AH in Bastok (connection to Norg) and Jeuno and I doubt they'll last very long.

Bonecraft appears to be expensive to level with the exception of the arrowheads of course, so I'm trying to avoid it at least for now since the only thing its useful for with Alchemy is making Cermet Claws which are lolH2H for people who aren't MNK or PUP. My concern was the depletion of my arrowheads and fletchings which I was hoping to get 7-9 points off of and which, since I'm not a bonecrafter, I cannot get except from others. Arrowwood is not a concern.

Scorpion Arrowheads are 25k per stack on Asura. The fletchings are around 3k.

[Icemage]

I have 3 mules, but with 2 synth crafts nearing 100 on main and a mule, plus 3 jobs at 75, space is a precious commodity for me. I don't store items on my main either, but my inventory space is so limited just from my regular gear that soaking up so many slots is an enormous chore since there are times when I need to pull gear back from my mules.


Icemage

[Sabaron]

I'll also add that making the Oak Poles is not simply "saving me a little money" because they sell for a handsome profit. just under 10k worth of materials per pole nets 20k on sale. I should be able to sell half or just over half of them and then do as I please with the rest (pawn them or desynthesize are recraft). As the market demand is 3-5 poles per day, I'll probably be rid of the 6 I need to sell in 3-5 days. I don't have multiple 75's, so my coffers are not as o'erbursting with gear as yours ;). If I end up AHing the remainder, I could stand to make some 60-120k depending on the favor of the market which can buy me 2-4 stacks of feathers with which to skill up my Alchemy or Smithing both of which are in the works.

[Hilde]

Well on Asura, I was able to do scorpion arrows right after the patch which made them stack to 99.
went through two stacks of arrowheads, kept some for my ranger and broke even on those I sold through the AH, but those first two levels hurt, I think I made oakpoles fora level.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

I was standing right next to Ulicille(?) using Adv. Support (as always) facining south, the directon of earth on part of Lightningsday through part of Lightsday.
I probably would have recommended doing Earthsday instead of Lightningsday. I'm not even certain on the impact of Lightsday on Earth crystal synths. Earth is in the dark element group, so I would probably avoid either Darksday or Lightsday.

[Caspian]

Yeah, oak poles aren't as terrible as people think. At the time I did them I had plenty of space on a couple mules and enough extra cash to get me by until they all sold. Just put up a few on a mule every few days until I got rid of them.
Scorpions are probably doable that early (thats what everyone else is saying), but all the breaks are most likely pretty damned annoying.
Already did one craft 10 levels early (cabinets) and am in the process of leveling bonecraft so I can start on kaburas (also 10 levels early).

[Lleo]

I'm sorry but 6 crystal stacks for 1.1 point of skill is a horrible skill up rate.

You must have been really unlucky. I did Scoprion Arrows from 49 to 59, and 6 stacks of crystals got me from 49 to 52. My failure rate was around 50% though. I have leveled on other recipes bellow 60 at 10 or 11 under cap in various crafts, and never had as bad skill up rates as you had here.

[Caspian]

Yeah, it is odd that you got so few skillups with so many crystals, even if you were breaking around 50%, which is around normal for that big of a gap iirc.
Even at 71, when I was attempting a lvl 81 synth, I was breaking around 50%, but my successes were giving me a .1 nearly every time. That usually why the excessively wealthy do stuff like that when PL'ing a craft. (Atleast thats what I've been told, Icemage may have more experience pl'ing crafts.)

[Icemage]

At a gap of 10 levels it's very likely in that range to gain .2 or even .3 on a success. Only at higher levels do those start drying up. 1.1 for 6 stacks is extremely low.


Icemage

[Sabaron]

I don't know what it was... I just know that it sucked.
Maybe because the moon was in Leviathan and I'm a Water sign..but 6 Crystal stacks for 1.1 skill is the worst I've ever done.

I will say one thing about Scorp 49-59 though... Even with my rather abysmal failure rate, all of my reagents have been paid for and I've still got most of a stack of heads/fletchings to do...

By the time I'm done, the Scorps will most likely have paid for the oak poles as well even though I don't need them to.

[Icemage]

I don't know what it was... I just know that it sucked.
Maybe because the moon was in Leviathan and I'm a Water sign..but 6 Crystal stacks for 1.1 skill is the worst I've ever done.
I just think this was bad luck. My experiences in this level range (and those of other posters in this thread) indicate this is a very valid skillup path. It's true those first couple levels are a bit rough but with advanced synth support (+3 skill) you're within 8 levels, which ought to get you at least around a 20% success rate.


I will say one thing about Scorp 49-59 though... Even with my rather abysmal failure rate, all of my reagents have been paid for and I've still got most of a stack of heads/fletchings to do...
Hence why it's such an often recommended path. :)


By the time I'm done, the Scorps will most likely have paid for the oak poles as well even though I don't need them to.
Just be glad you don't have to go any higher on Woodworking. Things get a lot uglier above 59. :P It's not "that" expensive to level, but the materials are sometimes nightmarishly hard to acquire in any quantity.


Icemage

[Caspian]

Just be glad you don't have to go any higher on Woodworking. Things get a lot uglier above 59. :P It's not "that" expensive to level, but the materials are sometimes nightmarishly hard to acquire in any quantity.
Icemage
No kidding. I did well until I got past bodkins and demons. Did ancient lumber for 3 levels and couldn't hardly ever find it. Broke even minus the breaks, but had to take it very slow and avoid it for awhile when people were price gouging the logs.
After that, cabinets were actually pretty good since I could get both oak lumber and logs from the guild merchants.
Next is kabura arrows, once I get done leveling bonecraft. Its going to take forever to find enough ram horns to synth even one stack of arrowheads.
After that, well, I'm pretty sure I'm screwed and am going to have to resort to the break synth method of skillups.

I've heard starting at 60 and going all the way to 100, that skillups average to about 1 out of 4 synths. The more I pay attention, the more this seems to hold true. I do often notice long stretches of no skillups, followed by near back to back skillups. Actually went from 80 to 81 in under 20 synths. Iirc the .2 and .3 skillups start slowing down in the 40's and 50's, and even though I've heard of people getting them later, I haven't seen anything like that in the last 20 levels.

[Sabaron]

You won't. I haven't seen a 0.2 since 50-60. Above 60, I think it's either impossible or at least astronomically improbable to get more than 0.1. I got an average of 1 in 2 to 1 in 3 from 60-80. Then at 80, I'm getting 1 in 4, and most recently at 88 I've done about 1 in 4 or slightly worse.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

I think I've seen a 0.3 as high as 59. But that was because I was doing a recipe 9 levels above me. From 60 and on up, I don't recall anything other than 0.1s. So either a 0.2 after 60 is extremely, extremely rare, or just non-existant.

[Caspian]

I think I heard someone on BG forums saying they've had one. Take that for what you will, I could be remembering wrong or they could be full of crap.
Ofcourse, I wouldn't believe you could get a HQ synth if you're below the cap if I hadn't been told that you could by several people I trust on these forums.

[Sabaron]

I've gotten quite a few HQs at below cap... Unfortunately, they've all been on things where HQ doesn't matter. Most recently, at -7 off Scorpion Arrows, I got a 66. Arrows and other stackable consumables for some reason seem a bit easier to HQ.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Ofcourse, I wouldn't believe you could get a HQ synth if you're below the cap if I hadn't been told that you could by several people I trust on these forums.
This is another case where I think it's just obscenely rare at best. In my hundreds of levels of skill ups, I have only gotten HQ results maybe 3 times. The last two times I have gotten it, I know for a fact that I had image support to push my effective level up to or beyond the recipe cap.

My guess is that the people who say that they routinely (i.e. once every 50 skill up attempts) get HQs while skilling up are doing so when their effective crafting level has reached or exceeded the recipe cap.

I'd place the HQ rate for when you're below the cap at something like 0.01%, and not the 1 to 2% you get with Tier 0.

[Icemage]

I'd place the HQ rate for when you're below the cap at something like 0.01%, and not the 1 to 2% you get with Tier 0.
I agree, my crafting experience reflects this as well.

I'll note my additional observation that every time I've gotten an HQ while still skilling up, it has been on a day that the crystal used was weak against. i.e. fire crystal HQ on watersday.


Icemage

[Caspian]

That may be why I've never seen it then. I'm paranoid and never craft for skillups with anything that would push me above the cap. It probably doesn't make a difference, but I'm always afraid that it will hurt my skillup rate.

[Sabaron]

I've counted 3. Ever... All on consumables or items that don't matter like Pineapple Juice. Amend that "quite a few" to a few... I think that makes my statement sound more prolific than it actually was. I consider 3 to be "quite a few" in the case of undercap skillups ;)

[Lleo]

I have had many HQs while skilling up, but all these HQs did come when I had support or guild gear that put my effective level at or above the cap. Then the HQ of a skillup recipe is worth something, I always try to get above cap with support and guild gear. These HQs was paying for some of my veteran clothcraft levels.