Anyone else getting mass misses on Light and Dark Shot?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Everyone was saying what a godsend Light Shot and Dark Shot being converted into a Sleep and Dispel. I thought that, following my experience as a BRD as well as RDM and the AGI modifiers being a new factor in the Quick Draw equation, that if I packed half the AGI relative to me base AGI that I'd have little problem landing these. This following the BRD side logic at least.

When I tested the changes out in Beseiged on Mamool, it seemed that Dark Shot was fairly consistant. Light Shot... that's not really a good place to test that. Anyway, I didn't have the AGI build at the time that I later used in EXP.

So I go to Caedarva Mire for EXP at 68.

So far in about 7k EXP I've had a total of three suceesful Dispels with Dark Shot and two successful Sleeps with Light Shot.

The rest were all misses and its doesn't make sense. +6 AGI from Jadite Rings, +6 from Drone Earrings, +4 from Wind Staff (/RNG so I didn't suffer much accuracy loss), +4 from AF, +5 from Squid Sushi and I requested AGI Etudes from the BRD in my PT.

All this resulted in a bunch of wasted cards save for the five successful QDs landing. All the other Elemental QDs functioned normally.

Now maybe we were just in Mire too early for our level, but that doesn't explain the success rate in Besieged as those mobs would actually be higher level.

And just as a note, Dark Shot can not only miss, nut sometimes not take effect at all. Light Shot registers as Shadowbind when it does land.

[Celeal]

Does the creatures in Caedarva Mire have certain resistance on Dark element, while Mamool does not have much resistance on Dark element?

idk, just my random guess~

Maybe it is broken, who knows~

[Icemage]

Uh... Caedarva Mire has:

Imps, which resist Dark magic (I got plenty of resists from them levelling RDM there, with maxed Enfeebling merits and gears).

Jnun, which are undead and also resist Dark Magic like gangbusters.

Why does Dark Shot failing a lot surprise you in these circumstances?


Icemage

[Taskmage]

Those little jerks are very resistant to dark element. At that level I had a pretty poor stick rate with rdm dispel, and we know how accurate that spell is. Why they would be so resistant to light shot I don't know, unless the sleep effect on light shot is nonsensically dark based or imps just have natural resistance to sleep in general, which I don't think they do.

Have you tested light shot on skeletons to see if it really mirrors lullaby?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Does the creatures in Caedarva Mire have certain resistance on Dark element, while Mamool does not have much resistance on Dark element?

idk, just my random guess~

Maybe it is broken, who knows~

They are dark resistant, but Dispels by RDMs are dark-based and seldom get resisted and its the same with BRD's Finale - seldom resisted (save for gods, which are light based and so is BRD's Finalie). These were not resisted, the system said it was a "miss."

Thing is, no Quick Draws ever missed in the passed, they shouldn't even count as a melee hit anyway, they're magic. They can be resisted, but they shouldn't be missing.

I did get a couple "Dark Shot fails to take effect" which can be considered a resist, but the majority was "miss" according to the log.

But again: The majority of Dark Shot missed, they were not resisted.

[Icemage]

Light and Dark Shot "misses" are resists. I got plenty of failed Dispels against imps in Caedarve in the high 60s.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Light and Dark Shot "misses" are resists. I got plenty of failed Dispels against imps in Caedarve in the high 60s.


Icemage

I'll have to hear that from SE because resists are not logged as misses for RDM or BRD. Magic does not miss in FFXI, resist possibly, but not miss.

None of the other elemental Quick Draws miss, but resists are shown in diminished damage, but those shots still land. I don't really see the point you're trying to make here.

[Omni]

just some FYI, landing ranged attacks in mire at 68 is not a consistent thing. have you ever stopped to think its just your rng acc? even as rng with full rng acc gear, i had issues being consistent at that level.
Not until 70 where I felt my shots were reliable.

[Taskmage]

Someone who's actually a COR should weigh in on this. >_> I don't think the rest of us have an entirely clear picture of what's going on.

It sounds like Light Shot and Dark Shot are giving both "miss" and "failed to take effect" type messages, whereas other shots are like magic and can't miss but can only be resisted by a %. Is that right?

[Jei]

Before this patch, I never had any elemental shot totally miss before. They do get resisted, doing 1/2 and 1/4 damage. But not missing like this : /

[Icemage]

Quick Draw pre-update never missed, ever.

The fact that it is missing now suggests that a "miss" is actually a resist, since Quick Draw still doesn't miss for the other elemental versions. I suspect it's either poor translation or just poor wording on S-E's part, but the in-game effect remains the same; Dark Shot against Dark resistant enemies is logically going to be very inaccurate. Dispel and Sleep suffer from the exact same problem against Dark resistant enemies (Antica, Imps, Demons) even when you're packing a Pluto Staff and a full Enfeebling setup (Dispel is naturally more accurate than Sleep, but I still get the oddball weird resist from such enemies).

I don't know what to make of the Light Shot resist problem, except perhaps that it might suffer from low magic accuracy without the presence of an elemental staff or other MACC+ gear to assist it?


Icemage

[Jei]

That will be a big slap in Cor's face if we need elemental staves to land the light/dark shots. Missing the RACC = missing slugshots. That's not a viable choice at all imo.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Someone who's actually a COR should weigh in on this. >_> I don't think the rest of us have an entirely clear picture of what's going on.

It sounds like Light Shot and Dark Shot are giving both "miss" and "failed to take effect" type messages, whereas other shots are like magic and can't miss but can only be resisted by a %. Is that right?

Before the patch, all either elemental Quick Draws dealt damage, in addition to their threnody-ish effects and debuff enhancements. Those effects still stand with all of them after the update.

Quick Draw has various elements it draws from. Magic Attack and Accuracy stats do affect it, as do elemental staves. The actual damage of the Quick Draw is based on the bullet in the gun. On average with no other bonuses factored it, a Quick Draw does 180 damage when unresisted. Resists usually come out as 90 (50% resist) or 20. I've had full resists come out as 0, but that's usually on Undead Swarm in Besieged.

Elemental Staves and Moldivite earring can push that to about 220 and if the COR has rolled Wizard's Roll (or actually has access to other Magic Attack gear, which i don't think we do) that damage cap can be pushed a little more.

And Magic Accuracy was pretty much the same thing, COR can merit QD Accuracy just like RDM could merit spell accuracy by element. AGI was supposed to be a modifier for QD accuracy to lower resists since we really didn't have a modifier for it outside of merits and Corsair's Tricornne. I guess they did this because the elemental staves and MND/INT builds aren't as practical for COR to drag around with the cards and ammo already.

It could just be that resists for Light and Dark shot are mislabeled as misses, Light Shot currently gets labeled as Shadowbind when it does take effect, which is odd, too. Shadowbind is dark-based, but that might explain why Imp resisted that like crazy too. It did say the mob was asleep when Shadowbind happened.

Whatever the case is, there are obviously some kinks to work out. I just hate to think I poured gil into an AGI build for nothin'

[eva00r]

A full merited 75 RDM, BLU cannot sleep those mobs very well. I don't think you should as a 67 COR or else, the game will be broken because you can sleep everything every 1 minute. Please try again at lv 75 with full QD accuracy merit, I bet your shots would land as normal.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

A full merited 75 RDM, BLU cannot sleep those mobs very well. I don't think you should as a 67 COR or else, the game will be broken because you can sleep everything every 1 minute. Please try again at lv 75 with full QD accuracy merit, I bet your shots would land as normal.

Yes, because full merits at 75 proves everything works just fine, right? :rolleyes:

I wasn't even really concerned about the sleep aspect, I half expect it with demon-type mobs. Dark Shot is what I'm really having issues with.

COR's dispel is dark-based just as RDM's and Fenrir's is. Dark based dispels can see resists, but they're not common, even against dark-based mobs. I'm seeing Dark Shot miss alot on imps, which is kinda damaging to my performance if I'm invited as the only guy who can dispel. If having half my natural base AGI in gear won't help lower resists, along with staves and Magic Acc gear, it would be pretty pathetic that only merits could. So i think in regards to Dark-based mobs and Dark Shot, that Dark Shot is quite broken in contrast to Dispel.

I may very well be that misses are resists are one and the same, my Marid PT and PT in Bibki bay yeilded better results with both Light and Dark Shot, though both saw a miss from time to time. If the misses are indeed resists, they should register as resists instead just to be consistant with other magic. Even Physical Blue Magic is still counted as magic and resists will be displayed in the chat log when they occur.

All that aside, I find the adjustment to be lacking in other respects after extensive play. If I recall correctly, RDM's Dispel has a recast of 24 seconds, Finale recast is a bit higher at 40-45 seconds. Its kind of frustrating to Dark Shot at the start or middle of a fight, but not be able to follow up with a different QD to support an existing enfeeb for a NIN or forthcoming nuke for a BLM. That or to wait another minute to dispel again whent the mob instantly rebuffs. Its not optimal and having to wait til merits isn't a good way of fixing it.

I think it would be better to separate Dark Shot and Light Shot from Quick Draws as their own job abilities. If SE truely wants us to fill the shoes of a RDM or BRD in the support role of a PT, they need to go all the way with it, not halfway. There would be nothing overpowered about giving us a comprable recasts for Dark Shot and Light Shot, it would help us perform our role better in PT.

[Spider-Dan]

I'm pretty sure Light Shot has tiered resists; you have partial resists (which read as "Shadowbind" landing, but with varying durations) and a full-resist, which reads as a miss. You will never get the message that Light Shot (or Dark Shot) is resisted, which pretty much solves the whole "resist" vs. "miss" debate. You will see one of three things:

1) success ("is asleep"/"effect wears off")
2) full resist ("miss")
3) effect is not applicable at this time ("no effect")

Examples of 3) would be if the mob is already asleep, if there is no effect to dispel, or if Magic Shield is up. If Magic Shield is up, then even the direct damage QDs will display the "no effect" message.

I am unsure how miss/no effect message affect the debuff-enhancement properties of QD. One Ballista test would be to have cast Bio on an unbuffed target, then use Dark Shot on it. You would get the "no effect" message, but I believe Bio would still be enhanced.

As to the OP... my experiences have been diametrically opposed to yours. I have been shocked at the amazing accuracy of Light Shot. With a rather mediocre 76+23 AGI, I didn't miss a single Light Shot over the space of 3+ hours against trolls (including troll PLDs, which have Resist Sleep). It was only when I started ditching most of my AGI gear (I went down to +9ish) that I missed one Light Shot against a troll DRK. Again, with around +15 AGI, I missed one Light Shot against a Mamool Ja Pikeman... I bumped it back up to +25ish and didn't miss again.

At this point, I've fired several hundred Light Shots in both Mt. Zhayolm and Thickets, and have missed a total of two (both when I was essentially ignoring AGI). Against trolls in particular, the RDMs and BLM I was partied with were resisted much more often than that. It was happening frequently enough that I stopped screenshotting (http://tinyurl.com/hlbng/lsresist.jpg) it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Yeah, after a lot of other zones and PTs, its pretty much just that resists are mislabled, I objected to Icemage's initial analysis because, well, to my knowledge, he's not a COR.

Haven't gone against the Trolls in Mount Z, but in all other cases, its pretty much as Dan has said and my AGI build in those scenarios was pretty much the same as his, so peacemaker with all that other gear should be satisfactory. Once I get 72 or 73, Light Shot should be pretty solid against anything in Mire, but I expect little will change with Dark Shot there.

I did have an instance with a DC imp the other day when i was doing ToA13 in Mire for a friend, I aggroed and we pulled the shade and the imp into a nearby tunnel. I Light Shot the imp and it stayed slept for about 1min 20seconds, give or take. I do know that QD was back up before it woke. Didn't have a Light Staff on me, either.

I do wonder if 25-30 AGI on top of your natural base will be adequate for most situations. I know I've seen some CORs parading around in rather excessive AGI builds lately. Given what I had to deal with on Imps in Mire, I doubt that 40+ AGI in gear would change all that much in any given situations.

And perhaps this is the old BRD in me talking, but I'm kinda curious to see how Wind Staff works versus Light Staff with Light Shot. Lullaby for BRD was always most effective with Light Staff and Mary's Horn as opposed to Light Staff with Nursemaid's Harp, which saw more resists. Seemed like wind instruments played a role there and AGI's Element is Wind. Worth a test, I guess.

[Spider-Dan]

Yeah, after a lot of other zones and PTs, its pretty much just that resists are mislabled, I objected to Icemage's initial analysis because, well, to my knowledge, he's not a COR.
You shouldn't judge the merit of an argument by job levels. Regardless of what jobs Icemage has leveled, he knows what he's talking about. There are plenty of people that have jobs leveled to 75 and still don't understand how their job really works, and vice versa.

And perhaps this is the old BRD in me talking, but I'm kinda curious to see how Wind Staff works versus Light Staff with Light Shot. Lullaby for BRD was always most effective with Light Staff and Mary's Horn as opposed to Light Staff with Nursemaid's Harp, which saw more resists. Seemed like wind instruments played a role there and AGI's Element is Wind. Worth a test, I guess.
I don't think Light Staff affects Light Shot. Based on some preliminary tests (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=17;mid=116648204216531862;page=2#11 66830843144707996), I don't see any marked increase in duration or accuracy. If I were to wield a staff, I'd probably take Wind Staff for the AGI.

[SharMarali]

I'd suggest maybe experimenting on some other monsters somewhere else to see if you still have the same problem. A lot of people have suggested that it could be because of the specific enemies you used light/dark shot on, and rather than looking into that, it seems that you're dismissing the idea out of hand. You said yourself that you were doing fine with dark shot in beseiged. Maybe join a skill up PT or help somebody hunt an AF coffer key somewhere or something.

Also, keep in mind that SE often makes mistakes. It's entirely possible that, in making the various adjustments to COR, they inadvertently adjusted something that created problems. It wouldn't be the first time something like that happened. I wouldn't immediately take a defensive stance and assume that they're out to destroy CORs or dangle a carrot in front of your nose with no real intention of following through. They might have made an error they intend to address in a future patch, or there might be other modifiers besides just AGI.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

You shouldn't judge the merit of an argument by job levels. Regardless of what jobs Icemage has leveled, he knows what he's talking about. There are plenty of people that have jobs leveled to 75 and still don't understand how their job really works, and vice versa.

He couldn't have known for certain within the first day of the update that "misses" were resists, nor could anyone until there had been more more data from others in varied instances. Just because we have data that supports his claim now doesn't mean he really knew if that was the case when he made the statement, that's all I was pointing out.


I don't think Light Staff affects Light Shot. Based on some preliminary tests (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=17;mid=116648204216531862;page=2#11 66830843144707996), I don't see any marked increase in duration or accuracy. If I were to wield a staff, I'd probably take Wind Staff for the AGI.

I doubt Light Staff would affect duration, it doesn't even do that for Lullaby. But but staves do lower resists and that has been proven. I'm just curious to see if Wind Staff is more effective for Light Shot than Light Staff. QD is magical whether its counted by the system as magic or not.

There was a time when BRDs said, "You can never have enough CHR" and this was found to be untrue over the years, half your natural base CHR in gear is adequate. In time, Light Staff was found to be more effective than Monster Signa. One would think that since Nursemaid's Harp gives a +2 bonus to Lullaby that it would be more effective than Mary's Horn, but its been proven that that was not the case - Mary's Horn is better.

So with those notions disproven on that end, I'm simply curious to find out the real satisfactory level of AGI (25-30 seems close, but that could my mithra AGI talking) and what stave affects which shots the best.

I know it sound reasonable just to stick with Wind Staff because SE says AGI affects QD, but we already knew before this update that many things affected QD outside of that stat. I get more damage and fewer resists on Wind Shot with Wind Staff and the same is true with Fire Staff and Fire Shot - so there's something to the elemental bonuses on those staves.

They might have made an error they intend to address in a future patch, or there might be other modifiers besides just AGI.

Other existing modifiers are known. Bullet DMG and Magic Attack already had influence on QD, as do staves to raise damage and lower resists.

[Spider-Dan]

He couldn't have known for certain within the first day of the update that "misses" were resists, nor could anyone until there had been more more data from others in varied instances. Just because we have data that supports his claim now doesn't mean he really knew if that was the case when he made the statement, that's all I was pointing out.
It seemed pretty open-and-shut to me from the first day. No one reported any resists, only misses. Given the existing nature of "Quick Draw Accuracy" merits pre-update (which only affected resist rate), miss = resist was the logical conclusion; one that was proven to be true.

None of the above has anything to do with my having leveled COR to 75, or Icemage's lack of same. So job levels shouldn't even come into the discussion.

I doubt Light Staff would affect duration, it doesn't even do that for Lullaby. But but staves do lower resists and that has been proven.
Staves do lower resists for spells. They increase damage for some magical attacks (e.g. holy bolt effect, Quick Draw) but there is no evidence that they reduce resists on those. The max duration for Light Shot appears to be around 90 seconds, and (so far) it seems like AGI (and merits, of course) is the only thing that increases your chance of getting a successful, full duration sleep.

[IfritnoItazura]

If SE truely wants us to fill the shoes of a RDM or BRD in the support role of a PT, they need to go all the way with it, not halfway. There would be nothing overpowered about giving us a comprable recasts for Dark Shot and Light Shot, it would help us perform our role better in PT.

Do they want to, though? If they wanted BRD to be RDM, they would have given Finale and Dispel the same recast timer and element, right? It could be they very well intended to make COR distinct from RDM and BRD.

Less accurate dispel and sleep doesn't make COR a weaker version of RDM or BRD, however. Like NIN is a less secure tank than PLD, but has much better damage output, COR is a less well rounded support job with very nice offensive potential.

Trade-off's like that help to keep the game blanced, and is a good thing. ^_^

I recently exp'ed on RDM with another RDM in one party, and with a BRD in another. It was frustating working with another RDM--we both want to do the same things, and kinda just get in each other's way. In contrast, BRD + RDM was far more compatible--even on dispel (most of the time), since the Bard was busy pulling and tend to be away from camp.

Last thing I'd want is to make BRD more like RDM, RDM more like BRD, or COR more like either one. More of the same is very boring and/or annoying. <_<

* * *

Well, there is one good thing about working with another RDM; I had less stuff to do. With BRD (or COR, if I ever get to party with one) in my party, I would have more MP and less overlap in duty--Bard landing Eulergy doesn't excuse me from castiing Slow, for example. It's much more tiring and stressful partying with BRD... @_@

[Lmnop]

That's not what Bbq was getting at. When you build a party, you have a slot for support. It starts at 32 when both BRD and RDM get Dispel type abilities. Sure, RDM has the better of the 2, due to it's lower recast + Fast Cast. But then, BRDs already have Ballad I and many other toys. They're not homogenous, but they perform many of the same functions. You need one or the other, but not both. Eventually, this evolves more into "Refresher" jobs, and they continue to fill the same role.

Everyone wanted a new Refresh job so that it would be easier to build parties. But with Corsair, every Corsair I know is like "We need a Rdm or a Brd." They're not filling the same role because they can't, entirely. Obviously, Cor + Brd + Rdm parties are gonna be loved by everyone; but a standard party should be able to function with say... whm + cor + blm backline just as well as whm + brd + blm.

As a sidenote, though, BLUs have 3 or 4 Dispel timers now. Why aren't CORs everywhere static'ing with BLUs to gain Refresh + Dispel? Oh, and BLU can have an AoE sleep slotted for emergencies too.

[Celeal]

I rarely seen BLU dispel xp mob. How is the resist rate of Blue Magic's dispel? At least I never seen BLU cast magic with elemental staff =P

COR + BLU should be able to cover dispel, debuff, buff, refresh and minor healing.
COR+BLU+BRD, or COR+BLU+SMN, or COR+BLU+RDM, or COR+BLU+WHM, should be able to make a solid backline. However, with the current generation of BLU that favors frontline DD, I doubt they are prepare for those kind of setup in pick-up parties.

[Lmnop]

their M. Accuracy seems to be pretty good. When it first came out, Geist Wall was horrendous but my BLU friend (who talks about BLU non-stop, btw so I think I get a clue every once in a while) says it was improved significantly. Also, the other Dispels they have are also quite effective (one of them steals the buff for themselves, even). But of course, you have to make sure your BLU understands that's his duty and has it slotted. If he's having trouble, slot 2 Dispels.

As for Frontline BLU generation: what the hell's the point in playing BLU if all you wanna do is DD? Versatility is what makes them so (overly) powerful, ignoring it makes them an MP-based Warrior. Whoopdee freakin' doo.

So yeah, /kick all BLUs that refuse to cooperate and let's see how Cor + Blu works.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Blah, blah, tangent, blah, yak, yadda, blah, yak

He guessed, you guessed. And the guess was right, but it wasn't tested fact on day one, so drop the inane tangent commentary. I conceded misses were resists long ago, so I don't know why you're still beating a dead horse.

Quick Draw is magic. Magic sees resists, staves affect the damage just like they do with spells, so it stands to reason they would do the same for resists on QD as they do with spells.

And again, "You can never have enough CHR" was debunked, so I'm not gonna simply assume merits and AGI are the only guiding factors in lowering QD resists. Sadly, having merits or a decent AGI build at 70-75 probably isn't the best way to test staves out, a COR at 51-68 (where most things are still IT) would yeild more effective test results for staves. If there's someone of those levels willing to do the tests, I'd love to see the results.

As for as commenting on jobs you don't play, I'll leave you with this old journalistic adage:

"Write what you know."

Do they want to, though? If they wanted BRD to be RDM, they would have given Finale and Dispel the same recast timer and element, right? It could be they very well intended to make COR distinct from RDM and BRD.

Less accurate dispel and sleep doesn't make COR a weaker version of RDM or BRD, however. Like NIN is a less secure tank than PLD, but has much better damage output, COR is a less well rounded support job with very nice offensive potential.

Trade-off's like that help to keep the game blanced, and is a good thing. ^_^

Said it before, I'll say it again: Red Mage, Bard and Corsair do not compete for support slot - its not like any are starved for invites - so "balance" is a rather weak defense for lazy game design. But if the intention is to bring us COR closer to those jobs in terms of PT support, SE needs to finish the job because they have still left it unfinished in that intention.

COR is best with RDM or BRD, but we do get called on for sole-support with a WHM or SMN at times. To make us a better sole-support role, separating Light and Dark Shot from the other QDs and giving L&D Shots thier own timers would benefit COR in a support role.

It baffles me that prior to this update, SE freed SMN from a similar issue by dividing the Blood Pacts into attack and support BPs rather than restrict them to the same Blood Pact ability, yet they repeat SMN's original issue with Quick Draw simply by adding Dispel and Sleep under six other elemental abilities. Repeating the same stupid mistake is not something I consider balanced.

At the end of the day, COR can and will be invited to play the solo support class in a PT with a WHM or SMN, so being forced to constantly. You may PT with them as RDM often, but I've had plenty of PTs where I was the only job capable of refresh (pure hell with PLD, BLU or DRK in PT, those guys never sit still).

Conversely, as RDM, BRD and COR: Just because you're playing with another support class doesn't mean that PT is instantly gravy EXP. I've had just as many of those that sucked as I did awesome ones. Those BRD/NINs in particular are 80 percent trash. I've rarely had a good one.

[Spider-Dan]

He guessed, you guessed. And the guess was right, but it wasn't tested fact on day one, so drop the inane tangent commentary.
I suppose if you completely ignore all the reasoned evidence that points to the conclusion we arrived at, yeah, it's "guessing."

Quick Draw is magic. Magic sees resists, staves affect the damage just like they do with spells, so it stands to reason they would do the same for resists on QD as they do with spells.
Holy bolt effect is also magic, yet Light Staff doesn't increase holy effect "accuracy" (but does increase its damage).

And again, "You can never have enough CHR" was debunked, so I'm not gonna simply assume merits and AGI are the only guiding factors in lowering QD resists.
I don't see the relevance of CHR in this discussion, at all. QD is a magical JA, not a spell. There is a litany of reasons why QD is nothing like bard songs.

As for as commenting on jobs you don't play, I'll leave you with this old journalistic adage:
"Write what you know."
That certainly doesn't seem to have stopped you from commenting on COR's role at endgame/meripo for the last few months. It seems to me that another adage would apply: "Practice what you preach."

It baffles me that prior to this update, SE freed SMN from a similar issue by dividing the Blood Pacts into attack and support BPs rather than restrict them to the same Blood Pact ability, yet they repeat SMN's original issue with Quick Draw simply by adding Dispel and Sleep under six other elemental abilities. Repeating the same stupid mistake is not something I consider balanced.
This line of complaint has no merit whatsoever when you consider that Squenix cut QD's recast down to a third of what it was before.

If SMNs had the following choice:

a) Keep BPs as they are now (post-10/18)
b) Have BP:Rage and BP:Ward combined back into a single pet command, but lower that command's recast to 20 seconds

...which do you think they would pick?

[Icemage]

Actually, I did guess, but it was an educated one. While I don't have COR levelled (at all), I did spend 3 hours meriting on the first night of the update with a 75 COR and noticed exactly what we've been talking about; no resists, very occasional misses. My conclusions came out of a conversation I had with the COR (who's in my LS) originally because I asked how he was casting Shadowbind with Sleep effect, and he mentioned it was Light Shot, which then went into a discussion about its effect and accuracy.


Icemage

[Lmnop]

I agree that the text of these QDs is quite stupid. It's as magical as a magic based WS, which doesn't miss either. It should say it's resisted, just like sleep and dispel do. As it's labeled "miss" this does make you think that it also fails to give the effect of enhancing Bio (and any other dark or light based debuff that I'm not aware exists). Even if the other elemental QDs have their damage resisted to shit, they still give their effect, no? So little testing done...

Btw, my Corsair isn't unlocked. Also, the only mage/support jobs I've played, I leveled them solo. And my RNG is level 1 too.

Still, I know the importance of debuffing mobs and hasting tanks better than most WHMs/RDMs...

[Drive]

If he's having trouble, slot 2 Dispels.
As for Frontline BLU generation: what the hell's the point in playing BLU if all you wanna do is DD? Versatility is what makes them so (overly) powerful, ignoring it makes them an MP-based Warrior. Whoopdee freakin' doo.

Because it's fun, no? I a horrible player can say that any blu can debuff(going to be set anyway) and still DD decent.

Blank Gaze that was just added is real nice. Light dispel that only works face to face. Was able to dispel Xototl at level 62.

[IfritnoItazura]

so "balance" is a rather weak defense for lazy game design. But if the intention is to bring us COR closer to those jobs in terms of PT support, SE needs to finish the job because they have still left it unfinished in that intention.

To make us a better sole-support role, separating Light and Dark Shot from the other QDs and giving L&D Shots thier own timers would benefit COR in a support role.

It baffles me that prior to this update, SE freed SMN from a similar issue by dividing the Blood Pacts into attack and support BPs rather than restrict them to the same Blood Pact ability, yet they repeat SMN's original issue with Quick Draw simply by adding Dispel and Sleep under six other elemental abilities. Repeating the same stupid mistake is not something I consider balanced.

I'm not convinced it's a "lazy game design"; it could very well be that within the dev team they cannot agree on how good COR should be at support job role, and with this last update the "be more" side scored a compromise victory.

It may be that it's not so much "unfinished" as "undecided".

And, comparing Quickdraw with Bloodpact is not exactly fair. Between QD's, COR's can help the party with Phantom Roll and range attack. Heck, every COR I had so far also pulls for the party, so COR's are quite useful even before QD, same timer for light/dark or otherwise. (Can you tell I liked COR's in party?)

What's a SMN in traditional party supposed to do between BP's other than using spells from /WHM? Melee? Certainly not. Carby pull, maybe, at the expense of not being able to heal for MP. The point is that they don't have much "Summoner" things to do other than Bloodpacts.

What you see as "repeating mistake" I see as a reasonable compromise which strengthened COR considerably. If dispel is important, now COR can fill in when RDM and BRD cannot be had--maybe with a BLU on the backup. That adds a nice alternative, I think, to exp party options.


Conversely, as RDM, BRD and COR: Just because you're playing with another support class doesn't mean that PT is instantly gravy EXP. I've had just as many of those that sucked as I did awesome ones.

If this is directed at me, I don't believe I've ever said dual support equals "gravy EXP". ^_^; (I've been fortunate, though; dual support has always been fun for me.)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

If COR's undecided, then many of the jobs still are. The fact DRK got such an insignifigant tweak in the update when MNK or BST could have gotten an update kinda says to me some of these adjustments are just plain random.

PUP gets high level WS for the automation and new parts, but no real upgrade to the PUPs themselves. COR gets a lowered recast, but cards still aren't quiverable. BLU... gets new spells. Yeah thats a shocker.

DRG it seems they adjust everything around the wyvern, but never give a new job ability that enhances a DRG's performace. What lies between 50 and 75 is still a wasteland, something should be there after 50 and before merit abilities. SAM update was nice for the subjob aspect, but DRG still needs some main job adjustments.

Its the same problem as PUP - too much focus on the pet, not enough on the job itself. BST? Same thing.

WAR - haven't seen a WAR/SAM since SAM update, they still go /NIN. Seigan is really, really good, I don't know why they don't even give it damn chance. But SE can't fix community stubborness without doing something a bit more drastic.

Anyway, if these are all adjustments, there is a lot left to be adjusted. I seriously hope it doesn't end with the next batch of so-called adjustments, because some jobs now feel even more incomplete than they did before. SAM, PLD and SMN seem to be perfectly balanced out now, but that's about it. RDM, NIN and BRD - they don't really need anything.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

We've established "misses" were resists, or so we've thought.

After a couple roaming PTs in Mamook and TP burns in Mamool Ja Staging point, I'm no longer convinced these are resists. These are misses just like melee misses.

Mamool Ja Infiltrators and Lurkers are convincing me this is the case. Both mobs have very high evasion and we generally try to avoid pulling them in TP burn because they're harder to kill due to that evasion. Just about each and every Dark Shot or Light Shot fired at these has been a miss with the same AGI build as before.

Yet, in Besieged, mob evasion is lowered so people can hit them. Some of the same mob types roam here, but I don't "miss" them, in fact, I hardly do.

AGI is our modifier, that we already knew for QD. So if a mob has higher agility than us, the more likely we will miss, its just not a resist. In the initial scenario, I was level 68 and we were on imps in Mire. I felt like we were there too early and I'm pretty sure my feeling was correct. When I caught up but two levels, my Dark Shots landed more consistantly, but the RDMs I PTed with at a similar level still saw more resists on Dispel.

Gun and Bullet DMG, along with Magic Attack and Staves do affect our max potential damage for QD. But its still technically magic, so it can see resists, but they never miss.

So now I'm feeling Dark and Light Shot are only magical in their two-fold functions, but counted as a melee shot otherwise.

If imps were so strong with Dark, then Dark Shot would indeed be resisted more, but I land more Dispels on them than RDMs seem to now, so I'm thinking Dark Shot is just Dark by name and has nothing to do with the element itself.

[Spider-Dan]

We've established "misses" were resists, or so we've thought.
After a couple roaming PTs in Mamook and TP burns in Mamool Ja Staging point, I'm no longer convinced these are resists. These are misses just like melee misses.
Fire Light Shot at a Light Elemental. Either Light Elementals are the most evasive mob in the game, or Light Shot is being resisted.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Fire Light Shot at a Light Elemental. Either Light Elementals are the most evasive mob in the game, or Light Shot is being resisted.

Light Elementals are too chance and lengthy a spawn for worthwhile testing, so I instead opted for Dark Elementals, which are practically always up in Castle Zvahl Baileys. Each Dark shot did miss, so yeah, element is definately a factor

... but then I turned around and Dispelled a demon. Like Imps, they're strong with Dark, too, but not immune to Dark-based dispel.

Elementals are all strongly attuned to a particular element. They're rigged resist their own element by default, regardless of level difference. So its not exactly the most perfect test on earth, Dan. I can land Ice Shot on an Ice Elemental using Peacemaker on Firesday, I'm still only going to do 9 damange. That's practically a full resist, a 100 percent resist is 0, but it still lands every time. So, so much for that idea.

And this doesn't explain why Dark and Light Shot land rather reliably now on a Mamool Ja Blusterer, Philosopher, Pikeman or even Gulool Ja Ja, but not on Mamool Ja Lurkers and Infiltrators. They don't seem to be strong with the Dark element. But THF and NIN mobs have obscene levels evasion - a stat the falls under AGI.

We have no native elemental skills to capitalize on. AGI is our modifier for QD Accuracy, aside from merits. What I'm saying here is that if a mob has higher AGI than us, our QDs are subject to their level of evasion. AGI is a stat for evasion as well.

And what happens when a mob has insanely higher AGI than we do, class?

We miss. But magic would not.

What I'm saying is that element is not the only factor here and QD is not pure magic. If element were the only factor, we'd be stacking MND and INT gear instead of AGI and landing this stuff.

COR does not entirely play by the rules of RDM or BRD, just like BLU doesn't entirely play by all the rules of the mage jobs that proceeded them. They do use melee stats to affect their physical spells and physical spells can be resisted. We're both subject to different rules as well.

[Armando]

COR does not entirely play by the rules of RDM or BRD, just like BLU doesn't entirely play by all the rules of the mage jobs that proceeded them. They do use melee stats to affect their physical spells and physical spells can be resisted. We're both subject to different rules as well.Technically, BLU spells still play entirely by the rules (they just play by the rules of melee.) Their physical spells are calculated like melee hits, are subject to 99% of the rules of melee WS (parrying, shield block, evasion, Souleater, Mighty Strikes, Sneak Attack, Guarding, Perfect Dodge, Invincible, and Arrow Shield all affect them; Magic Shield, on the other hand, doesn't. They also get the damage type bonuses and penalties, as you know.) They're only exempted from a very small ammount of rules (I believe Double Attack trait doesn't kick in on spells.) Also, they can't be resisted. The only way in which they really bend the rules is that they need to be casted like a spell instead of simply used like a WS (but even then they're subject to all the rules that pertain to casting spells...)If imps were so strong with Dark, then Dark Shot would indeed be resisted more, but I land more Dispels on them than RDMs seem to now, so I'm thinking Dark Shot is just Dark by name and has nothing to do with the element itself.But isn't Dispel unnaturally accurate? I've heard you can land it easily even when subbed.

It certainly is possible that it can both miss and resist, but testing it on different mobs sounds a bit iffy. Do you have any high level WAR friends? If you do, you could test Light/Dark shot several times on a highly evasive mob, and then start Shield Breaking them and see if there's any difference.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Technically, BLU spells still play entirely by the rules (they just play by the rules of melee.) Their physical spells are calculated like melee hits, are subject to 99% of the rules of melee WS (parrying, shield block, evasion, Souleater, Mighty Strikes, Sneak Attack, Guarding, Perfect Dodge, Invincible, and Arrow Shield all affect them; Magic Shield, on the other hand, doesn't. They also get the damage type bonuses and penalties, as you know.) They're only exempted from a very small ammount of rules (I believe Double Attack trait doesn't kick in on spells.) Also, they can't be resisted. The only way in which they really bend the rules is that they need to be casted like a spell instead of simply used like a WS (but even then they're subject to all the rules that pertain to casting spells...)

Well, I was more just getting at their physical spells were subject to melee rules, its something only applicable to their class since a SMN can't do the same for their Avatar's physical spell by equipping accuracy and attack gear like a BLU would.

But isn't Dispel unnaturally accurate? I've heard you can land it easily even when subbed.

Yeah, even subbed, RDM's Dispel is really accuracte, even on gods you can land it. Finale, however, is subject to seeing more resists since you only have singing skill to support it. Singing skill is geared to buffs while the other skills skew to debuff and you have no access to those instruments as /BRD anyway. COR's Dark shot seems to go off in most circumstances like RDM's but struggles in a handful of areas.

It certainly is possible that it can both miss and resist, but testing it on different mobs sounds a bit iffy. Do you have any high level WAR friends? If you do, you could test Light/Dark shot several times on a highly evasive mob, and then start Shield Breaking them and see if there's any difference.

Its worth a try, I definately am not short on WAR buddies. Gravity might also help for this as it does lower evasion by 5%.

Its iffy to test stuff like this on lower mobs at 75, which is why I've been debating the whole "its a resist" notion since the update. Sometimes testing things at high level skews the results. Tests in levelcapped areas or data from level 40+ players would give more results.

[Spider-Dan]

lementals are all strongly attuned to a particular element. They're rigged resist their own element by default, regardless of level difference. So its not exactly the most perfect test on earth, Dan. I can land Ice Shot on an Ice Elemental using Peacemaker on Firesday, I'm still only going to do 9 damange. That's practically a full resist, a 100 percent resist is 0, but it still lands every time. So, so much for that idea.
First off, the direct-damage Quick Draws never miss. They either do damage, or have "no effect" (in the case of, say, Magic Shield).

Second, elementals aren't immune to direct-damage magical attacks, regardless of their element. They resist them heavily, but they still do damage. Which is exactly what happened with your Ice Shot.

And this doesn't explain why Dark and Light Shot land rather reliably now on a Mamool Ja Blusterer, Philosopher, Pikeman or even Gulool Ja Ja, but not on Mamool Ja Lurkers and Infiltrators. They don't seem to be strong with the Dark element. But THF and NIN mobs have obscene levels evasion - a stat the falls under AGI.
I have never missed an Infiltrator or Lurker with Light Shot. The only Mamool Ja I've ever missed are a Pikeman (DRG) and Philosopher (BLM), neither of which have significant AGI or Evasion.

We have no native elemental skills to capitalize on. AGI is our modifier for QD Accuracy, aside from merits. What I'm saying here is that if a mob has higher AGI than us, our QDs are subject to their level of evasion. AGI is a stat for evasion as well.
Um, no. Evasion is partially derived from AGI, not the other way around.

And if Evasion really decreases Quick Draw accuracy, why doesn't Ranged Accuracy increase it? It doesn't add up.

And what happens when a mob has insanely higher AGI than we do, class?
We miss. But magic would not.
If you're talking about an AGI vs. AGI comparison, RNG beastmen would have the best chance of resisting (since RNG has the highest AGI score in the game). It should come as no surprise that I've landed Light Shot on every troll RNG I've ever fired it at. The only troll I've ever missed Light Shot on was a DRK.

What I'm saying is that element is not the only factor here and QD is not pure magic. If element were the only factor, we'd be stacking MND and INT gear instead of AGI and landing this stuff.
Why do you find it hard to believe that a magical attack can be based on a stat other than MND or INT? BRD songs aren't based on MND or INT, and they're magical.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

DMG on the bullet and gun determines the base potential damage of QD.
DMG is a melee stat.
Elemental Cards are based on the elements.
Elemental Cards replace the bullet when QD its fired.
AGI and merits determine the accuracy of the QD.
AGI is also a melee stat.

Since melee stats guide the magic side of QD, its not out of the realm of reason to think that mob AGI and Evasion would play some part in counteracting it - be they "resists" or "misses."

And Dan, keep in mind you have - what? - full marksmanship merits, right? That could skew your results drastically compared to someone without them. I know you didn't put much stock in meritting QD Accuracy before the recent update, you skewed to Phantom Roll Recast and Bust Duration instead.

Additionally, I find it odd you think QD is pure magic, but stick to Wind Staff over Light Staff for Light Shot purely because AGI is a QD stat. Light Staff could very well have an effect on Light Shot's sleep, the staves affect all their other resepctive elemental shots, so why not this one? As far as BRDs and RDMs go, they've proven that works, why go against it?

Because you feel COR is different, correct?

[Spider-Dan]

DMG on the bullet and gun determines the base potential damage of QD.
DMG is a melee stat.
Elemental Cards are based on the elements.
Elemental Cards replace the bullet when QD its fired.
AGI and merits determine the accuracy of the QD.
AGI is also a melee stat.

Since melee stats guide the magic side of QD, its not out of the realm of reason to think that mob AGI and Evasion would play some part in counteracting it - be they "resists" or "misses."
Except that Ranged Accuracy doesn't increase QD accuracy at all. So if RACC doesn't help it, why should Evasion hurt it?

And Dan, keep in mind you have - what? - full marksmanship merits, right? That could skew your results drastically compared to someone without them.
There is no evidence to suggest that marksmanship skill (which simply gives RACC and RATK) affects QD accuracy, at all. I'm open to controlled tests producing a solid foundation of data that says otherwise, but other than that, as far as I'm concerned, it's AGI or merits only.

Additionally, I find it odd you think QD is pure magic, but stick to Wind Staff over Light Staff for Light Shot purely because AGI is a QD stat. Light Staff could very well have an effect on Light Shot's sleep, the staves affect all their other resepctive elemental shots, so why not this one?
Yes, Light Staff might have an effect on Light Shot's accuracy. But Wind Staff does have an effect, confirmed by Squenix themselves. For the direct damage QDs, staves definitely increase the damage, but there's no evidence showing that they increase the accuracy.

Since the analogous increase to +damage on Light Shot would be +duration (i.e. increased potency), that's a good place to start. But Light Staff doesn't appear to increase the duration on Light Shot, so even that's a bust.

As far as BRDs and RDMs go, they've proven that works, why go against it?
Because you feel COR is different, correct?
I'd rather choose a bonus that WILL work than a bonus that MIGHT work. When it comes to accuracy, QD has very little in common with any spell; neither +MACC nor Elemental Seal work, for starters.

[Icemage]

Another possibility is that the solution is much simpler than we realize.

Looking at the anecdotal evidence, the two job classes that seem to resist Light and Dark Shot most are NIN and THF. These are consequently two jobs that happen to also have excellent progression in AGI in addition to Evasion.

What if the formula for accuracy for the non-elemental QDs is simply a comparison of player AGI vs. target AGI with Light/Dark resistance factored in (plus Square-Enix's patented voodoo magic random number generation)? That would explain why Dark Shot fails against imps, and why the observed failure rate against THF and NIN is higher.

Also note that Light and Dark Staff do not affect the base duration of Lullaby or Sleep spells, so it doesn't surprise me that they don't affect Light and Dark Shot either. All they do for the spells is decrease the rate of full and partial resists.


Icemage

[Spider-Dan]

While I'm open to the possibility of QD being an AGI vs. AGI comparison, it's worth mentioning that my experiences do not confirm that theory. I've fired many, many Light Shots against Mamool Ja Infiltrators and Hilltroll Rangers (I generally try to avoid fighting THFs as much as possible, though I've fired a few at them too) and I have not noticed any significant increase in resist rate compared to other mob types.

The only mobs I've had any trouble with on Light Shot resists have been Battle Bugards in the Nyzul Isle thickets camp. I was resisted twice in the space of about 45 minutes while wearing a pretty heavy AGI build (not maxed, but substantial).

[Icemage]

While I'm open to the possibility of QD being an AGI vs. AGI comparison, it's worth mentioning that my experiences do not confirm that theory. I've fired many, many Light Shots against Mamool Ja Infiltrators and Hilltroll Rangers (I generally try to avoid fighting THFs as much as possible, though I've fired a few at them too) and I have not noticed any significant increase in resist rate compared to other mob types.

The only mobs I've had any trouble with on Light Shot resists have been Battle Bugards in the Nyzul Isle thickets camp. I was resisted twice in the space of about 45 minutes while wearing a pretty heavy AGI build (not maxed, but substantial).
How much AGI are you packing though? By empirical observation, it seems Square-Enix is pretty fond of the once-in-a-blue-moon (1-5%) failure rate regardless of formulaic projection(it's not possible to get better than 95% melee accuracy, and you always have a 5% break rate in synthing, for instance). Twice in 45 minutes would certainly qualify - it is very possible that you're already above the cap for success rate, and so any misses might just be random factors aligning against you.


Icemage

[Spider-Dan]

Well, twice in 45 minutes (during a ~90 min party) is actually somewhat shocking, given that I've had 2-3 other resists total in meripo since the patch (maybe 20 hours or so, I'd guess).

I probably had a 2/20 resist rate on Battle Bugards, which (compared to 3/many hundreds) is pretty alarming.

[Icemage]

It's still a pretty small sample though. With that many attempts, it might well be that you just did the equivalent of rolling snake-eyes twice in a short period of time.

2/20 is not alarming. 5/20 would be alarming IMO because then it really would be outside of statistical probability assuming a 1-5% intrinsic failure rate.


Icemage

[Dayala]

Only time I've had issues with sleep is on Mamool. I hate fighting them, they're a waste of cards and bullets. I have +40 in AGI to gear swap if I notice misses on Light shot but generally, I've -rarely- missed a light shot (I was lvl 72 at the update) I have noticed less resists with AGI mods of course with the other elemental shots but not really an increase in damage.

I haven't missed any dispels that I am aware of, I've seen the "no effect" message but no "misses" The only thing I find frustrating is the amount of slug shots I miss ;o now that irks me, I'm running out of ideas to make it land. (and gil lol)

[Cyrilis]

I still havn't verified that the effects of light and dark shot still help certain enfeebles, such as blind(dark and dia(light) I know SE never listed the changes to these either. I suppose running to a mob, light shotting em, then hitting em with darkshot would see if it improves the sleep at all >.>;

Also, if the enchanced enfeebles still work for the two, which stats improve the enchancement? Agi? or magic attack? or it merely just fixed?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

SE stated the additional effects of Dark and Light Shot remained intact in the last major update.

AGI affects Quick Draw Accuracy, its more or less ensuring there's a lower chance your QD will miss/resist. Magic Attack is a Magic Damage modifier, it has no baring on the enfeebles or QD's enfeebling enhancements.

[Cyrilis]

you could have just said Enfeebling enchancements are fixated XD
oh well much thanks for the info