im really lost here, I love smn so much i just dont what i shoulld do

[Thoris]

im really lost here, I love smn so much i just dont what i shoulld do. I love big dmg and be able to help the party as much as i could. I hate to main heal but i dont mind supporting the party as much as i could. I know with blm once you get to 60 u need to solo because of tp partys.

Im stuck between smn and black mage i only want to play one of them. what i love about smn is i blood pact and cause pretty good dmg that is hate free, but with blm i cause Big dmg that gets alot of hate my record is 300 + with burst firiga. With smn the most dmg i caused was about 500+ with earth crusher Double punch and gravitaion skillchain.

it boils down to do i play Smn or Blm:o

[Jei]

SMN won't do big damage until level 70. If you really like the job, just do whatever you have to do to get your exp. Main healing is still better than sitting in town without party.

[Omni]

yea, sadly a lot of jobs are forced to do things they arent really meant to do just so they can get XP.

smn usually get called to main heal until the later levels, which they still cant escape sometimes at 75.

better off biting your lip and sucking it up than not xping a job you want to play.

[eva00r]

I'm sorry but if you don't main heal then what ????

Do 1 or 2 Bloodpact every 1 min and sit ? or even melee with your avatar ?

That's ridiculous.

[Thoris]

I'm sorry but if you don't main heal then what ????

Do 1 or 2 Bloodpact every 1 min and sit ? or even melee with your avatar ?

That's ridiculous.




I DD, and support i dont mind backup healing but i hate to main heal. I was in a party today and i was DD and support i was doing about 20-30% of the dmg or more titan was hitting for 35-40 per hit and was doing 250+ Megalith Throw. I also got persion to cap my staff skill which i did and was doing 400-500 skill chain and the drk was bursting. So if u know how to play smn u can DD and support the party instead of being a watered down whm.

i dont mean to be cocky but every party i was in they all said i was a great smn and i know what i am doing.


i wont play Blm i will play smn its fun and i do dmg and with no hate.:biggrin:


p.s your lv 1 smn, lv smn and see how you do dmg wise and play the job i would love to see if u want to main heal.

[Mog]

I DD, and support i dont mind backup healing but i hate to main heal. I was in a party today and i was DD and support i was doing about 20-30% of the dmg or more titan was hitting for 35-40 per hit and was doing 250+ Megalith Throw. I also got persion to cap my staff skill which i did and was doing 400-500 skill chain and the drk was bursting. So if u know how to play smn u can DD and support the party instead of being a watered down whm.


I'm going to be devil's advocate here. Whenever you get invited into a party, 90% of the time, you are going to be asked to be main-healer, not DD. You're not going to have enough time to bloodpact, heal, and attack with your avatar. XP parties usually equals healing, whether you like it or not.

You could also make your own parties (which gives you the initiative to invite a whm to your party) or solo exp. SMN is a great job to solo xp with, especially off bombs.



p.s your lv 1 smn, lv smn and see how you do dmg wise and play the job i would love to see if u want to main heal.

You're level 20 SMN. What difference does it make? At the low levels, job descriptions and abilities are pretty moot and people are discovering their jobs.

[Moshi]

When summoners are placed in a main healing position, it takes good support to help them be able to do so...a good blink tank would help, a great refresher that enfeebs is always a plus....like Thoris said, this will enable you to main heal plus offer the party some added benefits at the same time.

With the new separate timers, should be fun and easier than ever :)

[Thoris]

i forgot to adjust my lvs i am a lv 38 smn with carby mitts and all elemntal smns

[Jei]

38 hmmm
You really should try to mini garuda and titan at least. You get blinkga and stoneskinga, the 2 most useful bloodpacts imo.

[eva00r]

38 lmao ... good luck to 75 then. If you're still dding, I think it would take a little less than a year lol.

I know a lot of smns. I've been in a load of parties with smn until lv 75 for 5 jobs. I've 10 lv 75 smn friends that could do a very great job in SMN. None of them DD, because it's a joke. Even you have a relic staff, your relic ws could do at most 1k damage with SMN/THF (lol).

[Sabaron]

38 lmao ... good luck to 75 then. If you're still dding, I think it would take a little less than a year lol.

How courteous and friendly of you... perhaps next time you'll actually say something insightful instead of horking garbage all over the screen.

Perhaps something like:

BLM as a sub-job is nearly useless except to enhance your MP pool and give access to Black Mage spells that another class does not have provided that class has access to the spell skill associated with them. For example: Blind, Blaze Spikes, etc.

Nukes from a /BLM without natural Elemental ability are pointless. Therefore, if you select BLM, you've basically wasted your sub-job.

Cures from a /WHM still work admirably as do buffs (please don't throw Bar- spells, however, leave that to the WHM or you'll end up overwriting their good bar with your crappy one). There is no reason not to sub WHM for SMN.

Since you are subbing WHM now, because BLM is obviously not very good, you should be Curing since you have the ability to do so. As a RDM, I fill many roles including Main Heal. If I am invited to a party for that purpose, I sub WHM and sit in the back and do my thing.

Even though you're curing, you should still bust out the avatars and throw your pacts as usual. Don't melee because mages in melee range of AoE Damage spells end up being mana-sinks for the Main Heal (whom you may well be). They also can't wake anyone up if they get slept by say... Dream Flower or somesuch ability. Yes, SMN is good with a staff, but a WHM is just as good with a Club and up until 60th, a BLM has equal staff power. How many WHM or BLM do you see melee? BLM is an incredible DD compared to you. In the time you launce your single 250 damage blood pact, that BLM sitting quietly on the ground next to you can launch 4 or more spells that each do from 50%-100% of the damage you did and still not end up with hate depending on tank and enmity- gear. He also sits down after a volley and doesn't hemmorhage mp while his avatar melees.

The truth of the matter is that SMN is not a DD class. I've said it before, but SMN is a versatile class. In order for you to be a good summoner, you must employ all of your abilities to their fullest including those of your subjob which should be WHM. There can be some argument for RDM after Fast Cast, but you'll be much better off with the -na spells and lower levels on your Cure spells than with Fast Cast even if you're not main healing.

There may be a remote possibility to sub BRD or COR after the obvious MP recovery tiers or to sub BLU.

You can't eat cookies and be a front-line DD. If you don't eat cookies, you will end up dragging the party down through your longer rest cycles thus slowing down the XP process. If your accuracy is fine but your damage is weak, you only serve to give the mob TP to use to blast your party and slow down the process. If your accuracy is weak, you're only exposing yourself to needless damage.

Front line melees sub melee jobs, not mage jobs. SMN/WAR? SMN/NIN? SMN/THF? These subs do not add any character to the primarily magical aspect of the SMN... They are therefore categorized as "gimp" though they may have some purpose on special occasion.

You might be able to justify your melee existance by subbing BLU with gimped Healing Breeze, Wild Carrot, and Cocoon to keep you cozy, but you won't get much mileage out of most of the magic except for a few of the physicals that might shine in light of your high-damage staff. I would like to see a parse of a SMN/BLU, actually. I'm now intrigued....

[Icemage]

I'll take issue with the (common) misconception that SMN cannot deal damage prior to 70. While they are not the most spectacular damage dealers, SMN can certainly do their part as far as party dynamics by using their offensive Blood Pacts to set up additional skillchains - at least prior to level 60 where all the rules go out the window with burn parties.

I've had the pleasure of partying with some excellent mid-level SMNs in the past, and they did quite acceptable amounts of damage as skillchain opener/closers - and this was before S-E did the last round of tweaks to add the two separate BP timers.

From 60-70, SMN does seem pretty unidimensional as an also-ran healer, but that has more to do with player habits than game mechanics.


Icemage

[Sabaron]

I'll take issue with the (common) misconception that SMN cannot deal damage prior to 70....
Icemage

My opinions were primarily regarding Thoris' propensity for melee rather than the use of BP in SC--closing Gravitation with Double Punch can be very nasty. I don't think it's wise for a SMN to be up front, but I'm also not of the mind that the SMN shouldn't either (a) use any blood pacts or (b) only use buff pacts. I feel that a SMN DD's from the back and have to make full use of their new double pacting (e.g. Buff & DD instead of one or the other which was the previous mode), not from the front unless this BLU sub thing works out provided a food switch to something like Rice Dumpling provides enough chutzpah to get damage/accuracy to acceptable melee levels.

/BLU is (at least to me) an intriguing backup-healer/front-line DD possibility for SMN. The large MP pool of SMN gives a nice amount of leg-room with Healing Breeze and Wild Carrot. Add to that Stoneskinga, Blinkga, or even Shining Ruby and Cocoon to prevent yourself from being a damage sponge and some freebie criticals from spells like Screwdriver and freebie Triple attacks from Bludgeon and you've got what might be a lively yet unconventional front-liner. Mob level should probably be primarily in the VT range for optimal accuracy since you will not have the luxury of Sushi since it provides no +hMP. Since your avatar will be doing the SC and not you (because you're always resting and draining your TP), you still have your part in the chain it's just not done by you. The biggest problem with Avatar BP SC is teaching the melees how they work since BP's take longer to go off compared with the instantaneous results of the traditional WS. This would optimally be a Juicing mage (to make up for the fact that you're not resting during battle like a BLM or WHM) until you get real refreshes in your party.

I think I might have to try this, myself...

A meleeing SMN could potentially do Self-Gravitation if he was conservative with his MP and had adequate refresh to avoid resting until after he discharged his TP:

/pet "Double Punch" <t>
/wait 1
/ws "Earth Crusher" <t> or /ws "Shell Crusher" <t>

Other possibilities exist:

http://images.somepage.com/ffxi/renkei.jpg

Megalith Throw >> Starburst/Sunburst/Retribution = Fragmentation [2]
Full Swing >> Burning Strike = Fusion [2]
Heavy Swing/Rock Crusher >> Tail Whip = Detonation [1]

I'm not sure about the timing on this... maybe

/ws "Earth Crusher" <t> or /ws "Shell Crusher" <t>
/wait 1
/pet "Double Punch" <t>

would be the right combination instead, but I think the long timing on the Blood Pact makes the first choice the right one--if it doesn't work try the second.

[Thoris]

Thanks for the post guys. I was using my staff to skillup we were fight dhamels which dont have a Aoe. I was party leader I told them i was trying to raise staff skill

[DakAttack]

I've partied with plenty of Summoners that didn't main heal. Of course they'd heal when things got rough, but they'd primarily use defensive blood pacts first and offensive blood pacts second.

[Celeal]

IMHO, why not multi-tasking: heal and blood-pact (DD, buff, debuff, SC, MB, or even pulling) at the same party?

SMN's avatar is great for pull in camps where group of aggro-able mobs like to stack togather.

Unless the tank has so serious damage migration problem or the mob is too nasty, the SMNs in my past parties could perform a lot of wonderful things besides tossing Cure to tank. For example, SMN's Haste-aga is a godsend for NIN tank against Spider's AoE Slow-aga, it is cleaner than constant casting of Erase + Haste IMHO.

However, I rarely seen SMN melee with a staff, or the situation is okay for SMN to melee with staff.

[Thoris]

what is funny was i was doing at times more dmg then other DDs.... i know people will flame me but i was do 25-38 crit per hit and i was also doing 250+ Blood pacts and support. We had ice spikes, and blink on :biggrin:


im really thinking of trying bluemage as a sub. i can backup heal if needed and i have more DD skills. I can also raise my mp with spells cast cocoon, ect.

[Thoris]

i was soloing alot so my staff skill is at 98 almost capped and my smn skill is capped every lv my smn and blood pacting.

[Moshi]

Good job Thoris! Keeping smn skill capped every level is a great thing.

[Sabaron]

With respect to the SMN/BLU Self-gravitation Skill chain, once you hit 68th level, you can do a Self-chain with a burst by using Death Ray and Burst Affinity.

Macro #1
/ja "Burst Affinity" <me>

Macro #2
/pet "Double Punch" <t>
/wait 1
/ws "Shell Crusher" <t>
/wait 2?
/ma "Death Ray" <t>

(Not sure on the wait timing here, Blue Bursts are finicky and this will have to be tweaked when you get there)

With the significant Lower Resist of the SC, even with Gimped BLU skill you may be able to pull off an unresisted Death Ray attack on the Gravitation burst to do admirable damage, but at 68th level, you'll probably be starting to really need extra accuracy to even hit the mob to get your TP, so you might just be bursting on Grav that was opened by someone other than yourself. Since you're looking to go this route, you'll want to look for the most melee oriented gear you can find that doesn't interfere with your summoning. Here's some things I see that go that direction:

Magna Jerkin (33)
Black/Flora Cothardie (59)
Hydra Doublet (70)

Republican Army Mantle (55)

Harvest Earring (49)
Accurate Earring (52)
Melnina's Earring (55)* Long shot Rare/Ex BCNM gear
Immortal's Earring (60)
Minuet Earring (61) Will make BRD even more your friend.
Diabolos' Earring (65)
Adroit Earring (67)

Hydra Gaiters (70)

Archer's Ring
Shikaree Ring
Jaeger Ring
Sniper's Ring
Woodsman Ring
Kshama Ring #2 (not likely)

Battle Gloves
Wood Gauntlets * Probably Best Choice up to hydra
Battle Bracers +1
Hydra Gloves

Mercenary Captain's Headgear
Federation Headgear (has +MP too)
Voyager Sallet
Corsair's Hat
Juggler's Headband
Storm Zucchetto (don't ask me where it comes from)
Super Ribbon
Green Beret
Hydra Beret (In fact, why dontcha just get the whole Hydra set at 70. Dynamis-Tavnazia Style ftw ^^)
And of course: O-hat

Magna Chausses
Hydra Brais (again)
Volunteer's Brais

Peacock Charm/Amulet
Storm Gorget
Ashura Necklace
Chiv. Chain

Federation Pole
Elm Pole (+1)
Military Pole
Musketeer's Pole
Then of course your best friend will still be Ifrit for Self-SC, and Vulcan's Staff is very nice.
Then Mahogany, Ebony, and Mythic poles.

[Celeal]

Isn't Chain Affinity (Level 40)? Which is not valid for /BLU to MB with Blue magic spells?

[Sabaron]

Burst affinity is level 25--you're confusing it with chain affinity. Death Ray is Magical Blue Magic. The intention is to Burst Death Ray (a Dark element Nuke) off of Gravitation.

Chain affinity allows Physical Blue magic to participate as a Weapon Skill in a skill chain. Burst affinity allows Magical Blue magic to participate in Magic burst as a normal spell.

[Celeal]

oh, ic. I guess I am confused ^^;

[Sabaron]

I really don't know how effective it will be considering:

1) Blue Magic generally posts low numbers.
2) Blue Magic Skill on sub is extremely gimped at 68/34

Even with the lowered resist from the burst, the damage posted may be well under 100 but hey... 50 extra damage is still 50 extra damage. Of course, if it drops into the 20 or lower range on most attacks it might not be worth it. I'm sure the damage will be acceptable when not facing XP class mobs. I doubt the build will be superior in XP (perhaps middling), since SMN Staff is only class B, it will definitely be very nice for other game activities.

[Susurrus]

I'm sorry but if you don't main heal then what ????
Do 1 or 2 Bloodpact every 1 min and sit ? or even melee with your avatar ?
That's ridiculous.


With the update, SMN burns a lot of MP. That time between blood pacts can be used to rest.

Of course, I'm level 70 and those level 70 BPs take a bit more MP.

During the only party I was in at 70, I know if I could take advantage of that resting time instead of constantly tossing out GIMP Cure IIIs (Cure IIIs at level 70 are a pathetic, not to mention they're of level 35 quality). That resting time would mean more buffs and damage output.