One of those wishy threads that people always make

[Lmnop]

I think I can get away with it though, given that the THFy forums have been pretty slow.

The basic is a "what do you think THF needs?" kind of thread.

To go further, I'm thinking about S-E saying they want more ways to add to THF's utility. Considering I stopped thf and I'll never play it again until S-E fixes the magic-freeze glitch and/or makes it so I can stand in melee range w/out losing SATA charge, (Blus can do SATA disengaged and pop Cannonball at their leisure - from a distance at that - while THFs have to engage to use WS), I was hoping to find the opinions of ye glorious thieves.

For me, I don't think THF need more damage. The only way to increase THF invites via damage boosts is to make them retardedly overpowered -- like Triple attack 100% proc rate or something.

At any rate, my things I've been thinking about regarding THF are their incredible ability to survive (that almost never helps parties) and the fact that everyone's always associated them with pulling, yet they don't have much in the way of making them good pullers. Oh, and they're mostly useless in parties that don't need hate control.

One thing I've thought of would be like Fascinate or something. A job ability that forces the monster to look at the Thief. Not like Provoke though, because it wouldn't give tremendous hate... it'd just function like Provoke does in PvP. For a short time... say 12-30 seconds, the monster simply cannot attack anyone else. Give it a long recast (5 minutes+) so it can't be easily abused for funny end game tanking tricks. The biggest thing would be that it could be combined with Perfect Dodge to actually make the 2 hour useful in parties. In parties where their Trick Attack-ery isn't needed, at least you can save the Paladin from getting hit some 4 times without even effing up his hate control. I realize other games use abilities like this that automatically get the mob's attention, but they're always on Tank jobs. I think it'd be very interesting to put on a support fighter instead.

I've had a bunch of other ill-developed ideas (as all of mine are). There's the obvious "move-that-lowers-someone's-hate." I'm actually not too fond of that. Though maybe a "hate switch" move. the thief's hate becomes target's hate, and the Thief takes target's hate instead. I just thought of that one and I think it'd be hilarious to do to your tank. Also, I was thinking of an ability called Lock or something. "Locked" targets are effectively asleep (curing/damaging wakes them up) but if the THF performs any action other than move, they become unlocked. With a decent duration and almost entirely unresistable and a low recast, a Thief could choose not to fight and instead do nothing but keep one target locked down. It'd be interesting, but NMs would have to be immune/have very little effect from it or otherwise be balanced.

So yeah, those are my random ideas. I wanna hear from our THF community!

[Gawaine]

I think they should just focus on damage dealing abilities. I dont think that a thief would get an invite for other than damage dealer or to control hate so I think they should add different damage dealing abilities like a boost to increase you damage while attack from the side or something of that sort. I just dont think people would get keen to the idea of a thf as anything but a great damage dealer or hate control.

[John Doe III]

I think thiefs need to be like...semi-invisible without any abilities!.. Would that look cool? No purpose really just..ya..

[DrivenTooFar]

I personally like the "fascinate" idea. As a Paladin I usually don't need the hate control feature of a Thief but I'm always down with something saving me a few hits. It might actually make the Thief's high evasion worth something.

[Zempten]

If they were to make THFs better, I would think something along a Sneak Attack 2/Trick Attack 2 or have the Sneak Attack and Trick Attack recast timers(merits) changed to Sneak Attack Potency and Trick Attack Potency.

Also someone brought up this idea before but not exactly in the same detailed. Trap.

THF JA: Trap
Recast Time: 3 Mins
Description: A trap is placed in a vacinity the THF chooses. When a mob enters the aggro range of the trap, it is released and whoever is closest to the trap gains hate, much like Trick Attack, but without the standing behind thing

I thought it was a good idea because
1) It falls into the range of DDing sorta
2) It falls into the idea of "tricky attacks"
3) It seems like "fun" like how THF is ^ ^

[Lmnop]

yeah, I forgot about the trap thingy. And like you mentioned in another thread, if they can make fireworks with goblins flying around the screen, they can handle having a trap out. I think it'd could be pretty nifty.

The problem with damage is seriously... have any of you partied with Monks recently? Why would I invite a thief just for damage when there are so many other DDs? If I want damage, I take monks, dragoons, wars. At least they don't have to line up their attacks. And the more S-E tries to balance the DD jobs through total damage output, either a) the more difficult it ultimately becomes to control jobs' power levels or b) the more they homogenize the jobs into different colors of the same thing.

As is, most thieves are kinda low compared to other DDs. But then every once in a while they're topping the war/nins. I think it shows that a lot of THF DD capacity is dependant on other things. Namely, party make-up, how helpful party members are, mob targets, and of course player skill/equip.

So yeah... hate to say it to you thieves who like to keep it simple but if you don't want your job more complex, I better not hear you whine when even I (the guy who wants balance for jobs he hasn't even unlocked) decide to never invite you.

[Gilge]

I agree with Lmnop's last thread, in that a thief's damage is situational (you have to be behind the mob AND behind someone else)

this isn't really a problem, except that this requires a certain party setup, hurting thf's flexibility (and thus, in a way, usefulness) in a pickup party.

i think instead of SE focusing on thf's damage output, they should focus on thf's flexibility. maybe lower the level of Assassin to 40 or 50, instead of getting it so late at 60.

[Jei]

Well. It's the whole TP burning thing that makes a game a lot less versatile. BRD+Auto-attack-melee = easy EXP/Merit. Why get a Thf and have to worry about positioning you see : /

The game's getting kinda dumb really.

[Zempten]

I agree, THF's DMG is really dependant on the people of your PT.

When exping with my THF . . . .I don't even get to use TA anymore and hardly SA

Example:
SA in a WAR PT . . . .can we say "Fuck!"? Hate changes every 5 seconds or something. . . I gave up on it until I see a WAR WS . . .. . . but then every other WAR in the PT wants to WS as well and the mob just goes in circle
TA in ANY PT . . ."Oh shit! I can't afford the hate!!! Even though I'm doing enough DMG to keep hate" -.- . . . . . . . Seriously . ..

And in the back of my mind something along the lines of "Since you already have hate . . . and most likely your going to be keeping it . . .how does it hurt for me to plant a TA onto you?" but I never say it out loud cause even if I did they wouldn't let me stand behind them for a single second.

Landing a SA and TA every time the timer is up along with trying to keep it in check with my WS is important to me, because otherwise I see it as wasted dmg potential. However landing any of these is . . .. . down right annoy as hell when your PT members don't cooperate. Somehow I don't see SE doing anything about this because most likely they will say something along the lines of "This game is built on the concept of cooperation" and 90% of the THF community will be like "Psh, alot of cooperation I'm getting"

So if SE wanted to do something for a THF in terms of getting them closer to other respected jobs for DD they would have to put something that is non-depandant on your PT (who would have thunk it . . . .i spent like 4 paragraphs to make this point lol *sigh*). So another idea popped in my head . . .. a job trait . . . . .but what sort of job trait?

Job Trait: Backstab
Lvl:40 or 50
Effect: Increases CHANCE of critical hit and it's POTENCY.
Requirements: None

I put it around 40 or 50 because people won't be able to sub it and it's also around the time when THF's DMG output begins to dwindle. However SE has place emphasis on changing the majority SJ of /NIN to something else . . .this might give people another SJ option - I don't know, these are just ideas that I make-up that doesn't seem too overpowered but still within the reasonable range

I know I know, it's weird that this made up JT of mine would have no requirments like standing behind the mob, but I'm sure if SE would even think of implementing this idea of mine . . . they would overlook the minor logic to it ^ ^

I also know 80% of you will something something like "Why the fuck would we need some JT like this when we can already merit Critical Hit or wear armor/weapons that has it". The answer is simple, it's obviously not enough. A JT like this would not only enhance our DOT (consistant meeles) but also enhance upon our WS (chances for it to fire off).

Also I think this fits adaquetly in the role of THFs. I mean come on, practically everything that THFs do revolves around Critical Hits. SA? Critical Hit. TA? Critical Hit.

Now in response to any flames I might potentially get like "ZOMG That is so broken, it would tip the scales to favor THFs forever!". Let's take the time to think . . . . . .would you rather have all jobs upgraded so they even out? or would you rather have your popular job nerfed so they even out? Not to mention, I don't even think this will tip the scales to favor THFs that much . . . .I mean in the back of my mind I was thinking Backstab would proc like only 15%-20% of the time, just something that is noticable WITHOUT a parser.

[JennifARGH]

I can see that "Trap" thing working awesomely in PvP XD

[Kaickul]

Are you all crazy? :huh:

I mean THF just got one of the best updates an FFXI job has received this summer. How can you all honestly be complaining? What class had all their weapons endgame upgraded and given 4 Group 2 Merits that were just short of stellar? Out of most of the Group 2 Merit abilities for jobs... most only have 1-2 that are really good and the rest suck. The only one for THFs that sucks is Ambush, but even that is good if you are going for a certain setup with THF.

[Zempten]

Eh . . . .don't think it's a complain. When people say complain the first thing that pops into my head is RNG nerf.

It's wishy thread afterall Net.Drifter ^ ^

[Lmnop]

yes, emphasis on Wishy. I actually really wanted Net.Drifter's opinion. You're an example of a THF after my own heart (one that focuses on DoT).

first off, I really liked the idea of Ambush. ._. I don't know any of the numbers associated with it but it seems like a path to an even more potent haste/attack build. And you're certainly right, the THF group 2s are swell. However, thieves w/out group 2 merits are certainly lacking and we know those merit abilities really only enhance; they don't change the way you play too much.

When other jobs can sub your job to get your niche, and many jobs can at least keep up with you DD-wise w/out the hassle... just seems like THF could use something. Maybe something as small (yet nice) as making invisible affect your SAs the way Hide does -- and then remove the hate list BS associated with it (be able to cast Tonko:Ni mid-fight to land SA from any direction). Not much purpose except to give something for THFs to fall back on when their parties are horrendously random/uncooperative. Also would help stabilize /nin as a viable SJ for most levels of the game.

But I'd rather be able to hate swap with the WHM. >.>

[Kaickul]

yes, emphasis on Wishy. I actually really wanted Net.Drifter's opinion. You're an example of a THF after my own heart (one that focuses on DoT).

Thanks, I appreciate that.

Honestly I am not really sure what THF could get that wouldnt throw off the balance with other jobs, but I can think of a few wishy things. Perception would be one of my big wishes for people. Stop making THFs mainhand THF knife and melee in Assassin's Armlets because you think TH must be in effect the entire fight. As for THFs themselves... stop thinking that eating sushi and going /nin to everything is the best you can do for damage. Level up that WAR sub (or DRK), go get Pahluwan gear, and start using meat.

Prolly my biggest grief as a THF is other people fuckin up my ability to do my job. Yokodoma would be a big thing. Being able to just park myself beside a tank and SA/TA all day long would make my job easier for big HNMs etc.

Another thing has already been mentioned... having Hide shed all hate regardless of detection or hate level.

An increased critical hit rate would be something nice for THFs. When Ive been in a PT with a COR that uses the THF roll... I have thought to myself. 'If only our crit rate was like this all the time.'

My other main wish was for better equipment endgame... and that actually was addressed as of Homam gear... and now with Skadi gear... it seems our wish is coming true. Before this stuff... most THFs wanted Hecatomb gear. Truth is though... Heca does even begin to bring out the real needs for THF weapon skills other than the DEX. Of course the STR/ATT helps with Dancing Edge, but Heca gear only really shines for a THF with a Mandau using Mercy Stroke.

I am NOT saying Hecatomb gear sucks... what I am saying is... look at THF WS modifiers and look at the stats on Hecatomb gear. Our options could be better and Skadi seems to answer that.

Something else I would wish for has already been mentioned... a Stun move. Maybe changing Mug (its useless as it is) to stun would be great. I have recently decided to quit Ballista as THF because its crawling with echo drop spamming asshole BLUs now that kill anything in 5-8 seconds over and over. So Mug being able to stun would actually be really nice in this instance or just about anything else and improve our usefulness overall.

Increase our sword skill or give us A+ in dagger. Most melee jobs can do damage with 1 or more weapons. THFs are isolated to daggers only with everything else falling just under pathetic.

Go ahead and give THFs dual wield. Yeah I said it, even though I know it would seriously mess up things in terms of tanking. While having +24% haste makes THFs Triple Attack machines... we still cant hold up overall damage output with /WAR. And yeah, its the cool factor too.

Well thats just crazy stuff off the top of head...

[Lmnop]

I actually really wanted Net.Drifter's opinion.

Not to say I didn't want everyone else' opinion. Thank you much for your input, folks ^_^ it has been much appreciated.

It really would be nice if S-E just gave every job DW0. DW1 gives a whomping 10% delay reduction. If they made it possible to Dual Wield through simple addition (no delay reduction whatsoever); people could look cool, not have to choose only one weapon, AND not abuse nin sub every chance they got. I guess we can hope for that in the next S-E MMOG.

Seriously, Hide should cover the moving silently part too. I'm tired of losing exp because the gob linked with a bst-type gob whose pet foiled my Hide. And if not that, at least the hate list issue. That whole thing where you do SATA Hide and then you can TA onto tank with SA damage w/out a trick buddy... it doesn't work if you're also puller. Even if mob detects by sight (though that may be because they track by scent.. even though I can Hide from scent-trackers).

[Zempten]

Sure, Lmnop. We all know you only care about Net.Drifter =P

Joking ^ ^

[Spinnthrift]

Hrm - what modifcations would I put on Thf?

1: Sneak Attack doesn't break Hide.
2: Post 60, Sneak Attack doesn't need to be behind the target.
3: New Trait around 35 - that while sneaked/invisible/deodorized - ranged attacks will not break any of the above. Melee combat will however, either dealing or receiving will break, as will taking spell damage/effects. Means that you can pull a lot more effectively in far more dangerous areas - making Thf more desirable again. You will still have hate normally, but would allow for more freedom.
4: Make Shadowbind into a Stun WS instead of Bind.
5: Hide gives Sneak/Invis/Deodorize... (maybe - dunno.. more thinking Hide sucks when I get nailed by scent or sound when a silent oil doesn't trigger)
6: Hide will function on a True Sight mob if someone else has hate at the time... you still retain your standing on it's hate list, but for the time being - because you're hidden - it doesn't care about you. (it'll deal with you later kind of thing)

That about sums it up I guess from my five minutes of thinking. ><

- Peace.

[nanatsu]

Hrm. I've always wondered why there are bsts and thf seems to have lost its charm/steal heart ability. Would be nice to see that JA return, with the effects wearing off with erase or a good quick smack. Make perfect dodge a 10 minute JA that lasts 30 seconds and call it Caution. Make thf's new 2hr a forced SA-style crit on all hits for 30 seconds, and you don't have to stand behind the mob to pull it off.

Give thf real tricks.

THF Job Trait: Trick Stab
If you or anyone in your party manages to parry, force an automatic critical hit on your next attack.

THF JA: Avoid
Stance that dodges the next melee attack and counters with a SA-style critical. Can be used with Trick Attack to direct hate elsewhere

THF JA: Dirt Toss
Toss dirt into target's eyes reducing their evasion and accuracy. Ineffective against some mobs like worms.

Expand on thf's steal abilities.

Steal Weapon - Attack down status on target
Steal Armor - Def down status on target
Steal Footwear - Gravity status on target

Make use of thf's throwing skill by giving them throwing knives/daggers with good damage for ranged attacks.

Those are the things I would wish for anyway :O

[Nitsuki]

i just want more sword skill, so we can use a ridill better \o/

[Armando]

Hrm. I've always wondered why there are bsts and thf seems to have lost its charm/steal heart ability. Would be nice to see that JA return, with the effects wearing off with erase or a good quick smack.Because THF has only had Steal Heart in FFT, in which there was no BST (unless you count Mediator's Invite) and BST has been around since before FFT.

[nanatsu]

Because THF has only had Steal Heart in FFT, in which there was no BST (unless you count Mediator's Invite) and BST has been around since before FFT.

Googled it. I didn't play X-2 cause it made my eyes and ears bleed. Didn't play V and Tactics Advance doesn't count because it is an unholy union of Satan and Little Debbie. So I didn't know. Sankyuu for the info ^^

[Anaki]

Steal Weapon - Attack down status on target
Steal Armor - Def down status on target
Steal Footwear - Gravity status on target



i think instead of steal footwear. why not have it where the thief also uses there dexterity/aim to there advantage.

so stab leg = gravity status.
and others could be
stab arm =slow effect or strentgh down.
stab effects would have lower accuracy then lower hits but cause detrimental effects if they land.

[nanatsu]

i think instead of steal footwear. why not have it where the thief also uses there dexterity/aim to there advantage.
so stab leg = gravity status.
and others could be
stab arm =slow effect or strentgh down.
stab effects would have lower accuracy then lower hits but cause detrimental effects if they land.

Because then we're talking more Assassin than Thief. Thieves are supposed to steal stuff, hence the expansion on the Steal JA. Though I do admit that stabbing makes a little bit more sense superficially, since it's not like all monsters have weapons. The lower accuracy thing is a pretty good idea tho.

[Mazon]

Because then we're talking more Assassin than Thief. ...

Well, our AFv2 is called Assassin's <insert piece name here>.

e.g. Assassin's Armlets

Not to mention we get a Job Trait called.... Assassin ... see where I'm going with this?

It's like the whole, calling Gambler a Corsair.

[711rocks]

i just want more sword skill, so we can use a ridill better \o/

You got one? Grats!

[Armando]

EDIT: Ugh. Delete this. Minor posting accident.

[Nitsuki]

You got one? Grats!

i wish, fafnir really hasn't dropped another ridill for us in a while D:

[nanatsu]

Well, our AFv2 is called Assassin's <insert piece name here>.
e.g. Assassin's Armlets
Not to mention we get a Job Trait called.... Assassin ... see where I'm going with this?
It's like the whole, calling Gambler a Corsair.

Eh, just cause we have gear with the assassin name on it doesn't automatically make us an assassin x_x That's like saying wearing dragon gear makes me a dragon. We're still thieves more than assassins. Just like a Red Mage is still a mage more than a Duelist, even though their relic calls them Duelists. Some of those relic names are just there because they sound cool honestly. Yeah you could say Sneak Attack is an assassin's skill. But it is also a skill a thief would have. The bulk of thief's skills is centered around craftiness and deception more than cold blooded death, honestly. When I think of assassin I think of a whole other set of skills than what thief currently has. What I'd really wish for is the idea of us being thieves to be played on more.

[Saren]

(http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/general-ffxi-discussion/63998-idea-refinement-tp-burn-solution-play-bonus.html) I am not a thf but reading this thread reminded me of this (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/general-ffxi-discussion/63998-idea-refinement-tp-burn-solution-play-bonus.html) thread from a while back. I’m not saying that thf doesn’t deserve a few tweaks but what I would really like to see is SE adding a few things in that would make a traditional party the most exp/time efficient setup which I think would help a lot of jobs, including thf.

I may be wrong but I think that thf is more desirable in traditional setup parties because of their ability to help manage hate (especially given how many nin tanks we have now) and distortion skillchains are pretty damn nice if you are going to have a skillchain becoming a mainstay of your average party.

[Timian]

Triple Attack II Job Trait
Make "Mug" into something actually useful
Raise Sword Skill from a D to a B-
Natural Haste effect... like, 5% at lv40, 10% at 60 and 15% at 75.

*Shrug*
That's all you'd need to be more useful in a TP Burn really.
As for HNMs... THFs are Treasure Hunter whores...
Can't imagine any way to change that without breaking the job
in other situations.

[711rocks]

i wish, fafnir really hasn't dropped another ridill for us in a while D:

D'oh! Soon enough I guess.
I'm not sure if I really want a ridill for myself. Maybe if I level war too.