Is mary's horn really worth it?

[PanicNow]

Really for as long as it takes to get her to drop it, or for as much as it cost is it really worth it? It only gives you +1 for lullby is it really that noticeable?
:vent:

[Icemage]

Really for as long as it takes to get her to drop it, or for as much as it cost is it really worth it? It only gives you +1 for lullby is it really that noticeable?
:vent:
Yes, it really is worth it (one of the very few Bard instruments that's worth its price, alongside Horn+1 and Gjallarhorn).

+1 to Lullaby increases both accuracy and maximum duration (+10 seconds). Considering you're only casting Lullaby when you're in danger of getting pounded into hamburger, this is by far the most useful instrument in your arsenal.


Icemage

[John Doe III]

imo, I dont think it is a *must* for a low level and for somebody who has to spend awhile to get it. Definitely a must past 40 or so I would say, you really take poundings when you get hit then :).

[PanicNow]

Yes, it really is worth it (one of the very few Bard instruments that's worth its price, alongside Horn+1 and Gjallarhorn).

+1 to Lullaby increases both accuracy and maximum duration (+10 seconds). Considering you're only casting Lullaby when you're in danger of getting pounded into hamburger, this is by far the most useful instrument in your arsenal.


Icemage
thx for clearing that up now would it be better to have that or the monster signa?

[Icemage]

thx for clearing that up now would it be better to have that or the monster signa?
Mary's Horn is WAY more useful than Monster Signa. Signa is a conversation piece. It doesn't actually do much to help you - if you really want some extra CHR, eat some flint caviar or tuna sushi.


Icemage

[eticket109]

Signa doesn't look as hot when you're laying face up on the ground.

[Taskmage]

Tarutaru lie face down when they die though, which makes the signa useful for finding our diminutive corpses.

[eticket109]

Tarutaru lie face down when they die though, which makes the signa useful for finding our diminutive corpses.

yeah, its sorta like a signal flag for you I suppose

[John Doe III]

How many times do you actually sleep a mob during a PT? If it is going smoothly? PTed two hours lsat night and didn't need to once, I would rather have Signa (which I had) than have brought Mary's Horn. Depends on your level and where your partying.

[Icemage]

How many times do you actually sleep a mob during a PT? If it is going smoothly? PTed two hours lsat night and didn't need to once, I would rather have Signa (which I had) than have brought Mary's Horn. Depends on your level and where your partying.

Once you hit TP-burn levels... constantly. Even before then, it's great to have insurance against links. As for Signa, once you hit level 51, elemental staves trump it (by a wide margin), and even before then there are much more reasonable alternatives.


Icemage

[Skoal]

How many times do you actually sleep a mob during a PT? If it is going smoothly? PTed two hours lsat night and didn't need to once, I would rather have Signa (which I had) than have brought Mary's Horn. Depends on your level and where your partying.


To answer your question: none. If a party is going "smoothly" then no one would have to do anything out of the ordinary.

Also the horn is more useful for other activities than exp (until burn parties).

[John Doe III]

Once you hit TP-burn levels... constantly. Even before then, it's great to have insurance against links. As for Signa, once you hit level 51, elemental staves trump it (by a wide margin), and even before then there are much more reasonable alternatives.
Icemage
Are there TP-burn PT's 30 to 40, not too many inless you find some sort of amazing party. Past 40 you really get the crap beat out of you either way. Between 30-40 you really shouldn't need the money to spend on Mary's Horn. Past 40 if you can afford it then go for it, but Signa should really be first imo. Then when you get to those "reasonable" alternatives you can switch and buy your horn or spend it on something else. Inless you just flat out can't pull and have to sleep an extra mob every time (depending on party can be good or bad) assuming the bad, then you shouldn't pull and neither should the person who is doing it.


I know it is more usefull but is so is Signa depending on your level^^, like the TC's at the moment.

[Taskmage]

There's also the option of Nursemaid's Harp after 60, which gives +2 to lullaby and costs about 10k on my server compared to 500k for the horn.

[Skoal]

Doesn't the type of instrument affect the duration of songs? Or did I have one of those dreams that I thought was real again?

[Icemage]

There's also the option of Nursemaid's Harp after 60, which gives +2 to lullaby and costs about 10k on my server compared to 500k for the horn.
Nursemaids Harp sucks. There's really no other word for it. Because it's a string instrument, it has way lower accuracy than Mary's Horn despite its +2 bonus. Stay way far away from this instrument - you'll actually get better results with a plain vanilla Flute.

Re: John Doe III
I can see Signa being "somewhat" useful in the pre-39 range, but honestly CHR doesn't do very much for offensive song accuracy, and it does nothing for defensive songs. At 40 you get access to Corsette+1 which gives you a hefty chunk of all the CHR you'll ever need, so I can't really see any Bard using a Signa beyond that point for any reason.

Also note that Bards are actually reasonable attackers with a sword for the first 25-30 levels, so your window of usefulness for the Signa is really really small IMO.


Icemage

[Taskmage]

Duration, no I don't think so. Not unless it has + to that specific song. It does affect the range though. If I remember right string instruments have a wider AoE than wind instruments.

Edit: Oh really? I didn't know there was that much difference between wind and string. String has lower accuracy? What's the advantage that compensates for that?

[Icemage]

Duration, no I don't think so. Not unless it has + to that specific song. It does affect the range though. If I remember right string instruments have a wider AoE than wind instruments.
Yep. Nursemaid's Harp has a slightly longer maximum range and a slightly wider area of effect than Mary's Horn... but the accuracy is noticeably lower, too. Missing Lullaby attempts is just not good in any context.


Icemage

[Jei]

hmm looks like there's no real reason to skill up string instruments is it? I'm 52Brd now and all my instruments are horns +1s.... Tried to skill up harps with threnodies but I'm losing interest in that skill really fast >_<

[Icemage]

hmm looks like there's no real reason to skill up string instruments is it? I'm 52Brd now and all my instruments are horns +1s.... Tried to skill up harps with threnodies but I'm losing interest in that skill really fast >_<

String is a really weak skill. It does affect the potency of buffs when using string instruments for area, so it's still worth pushing up if you use Etudes (Rose Harp +1) or Paeons (Ebony Harp +1). For offensive songs, the only reason to use string is against large numbers of relatively weak enemies, where Nursemaid's Harp provides a slightly better effect than Mary's Horn.

The easiest way to push up string skill isn't via Sorrowful Harp's Threnody+3, though; the absolute best instrument to skill it with for normal use is Military Harp, with its +2 to Finale. Finale is usually pretty accurate anyway, so you don't really get hurt by the fact that it is a harp (and in fact, I can't figure out what, if anything, the +2 to Finale actually does). However, it provides very consistent skillups with a song that rarely if ever fails.

RE: Taskmage
String instruments increase the range on buff songs that have very short areas of effect, and increase the range at which you can cast offensive songs (Lullaby, Threnody, Elegy, Finale). In exchange, they are much less accurate, however.

Aside from the three instruments I mentioned above (Rose Harp+1, Ebony Harp+1, Military Harp), the other string instruments in the Bard arsenal might as well not exist. No one uses Minne (+DEF) anyway, and even if you did, you'd never use it with a string instrument for fear of landing it on your mages.


Icemage

[UnnamedGalka]

No one uses Minne (+DEF) anyway, and even if you did, you'd never use it with a string instrument for fear of landing it on your mages.

Heh...well, if you play Ballista, the Knight's Minne series and string instruments get a lot of use.

[John Doe III]

Do you really want to see your Bard hacking away with a sword, not that that is bad, but while doing so forgetting those seconds/minute to do songs or heal/cure? I would rather be glad that my Bard has all the CHR he/she can get to know that they can land those songs on the mob before a renkei/whatever. It doesn't have to do much for either, your songs are your songs. Your best bet is getting the instruments that + to them anyways.

Oh and Galka is right, all songs have a use. Just because you think something doesn't mean it is and should be true.

[Taskmage]

What's with this fad lately of people asking for opinions and then attacking Icemage for saying something they don't agree with? It's ok for people to have differing viewpoints; you don't have to argue about who possesses the real divine truth. Just take the advice from the context of Icemage's experience, and if you don't like it just discard it and move on.

[Icemage]

Do you really want to see your Bard hacking away with a sword, not that that is bad, but while doing so forgetting those seconds/minute to do songs or heal/cure? I would rather be glad that my Bard has all the CHR he/she can get to know that they can land those songs on the mob before a renkei/whatever. It doesn't have to do much for either, your songs are your songs. Your best bet is getting the instruments that + to them anyways.
I'm still of the opinion that Sword > Signa for the first 33 levels or so (would be less but for the existence of Centurion's Sword at 30, which extends the combat usefulness of RDM and BRD beyond what it otherwise ought to be).

Let's look at levels 12-24 for a moment. What are you singing as a Bard? Minuet and Madrigal, and maybe Paeon. That's it. You don't have any of the other key songs yet. No Ballad. No Etudes aside from Enchanting(+CHR). No Elegy. No Finale. You get Ice Threnody at 22, so maybe sing that for a couple seconds.

You aren't backup healing yet unless you're juicing - you don't have Ballad to recharge your MP, so your MP doesn't go very far (I guess you could rest after singing, but from personal experience, that MP doesn't last long at all, and resting was pretty counter-productive in any case - I juiced all the way through those levels because resting just wasn't practical).

From 22-33 you pick up Ice Threnody, Mage's Ballad, Advancing March, Learned Etude, Battlefield Elegy, and Magic Finale - I'd say when you get the last piece of the puzzle (Finale at 33) is when Signa might make a bit more difference, since melee is starting to wane in usefulness at that point and you're also becoming busier with songs. Still, we're looking at a stretch of 7 levels from 33 to 39 where the CHR from Signa outweighs your melee and can't easily be replaced by other gear.

Leaving the rest of it aside, there's two somewhat difficult to acquire weapons that both make the Signa not so dominant: Minstrel's Dagger (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/6685) at 38, and Chanter's Staff (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/6691) at level 40 (which is actually better than the Signa).

Considering the price tag on the Monster Signa, it doesn't really seem worth it for the handful of levels where it's ever so slightly more dominant than the competition.


Oh and Galka is right, all songs have a use. Just because you think something doesn't mean it is and should be true.
Blanket generalizations are your enemy. I'm dying to hear a legitimate use of Warding Round aside from entertaining other players during downtime.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Signa is pretty much overrated trash. Its nice for a Galka or Elvaan BRD who wants to slip on Astra Rings early for some MP, but that's about as far as I'd go on recommending it. Otherwise, at low level, you have decent alternatives for both CHR and MP and really good gear options from 40 onward.

Mary's Horn has been said to be more effective than the Nursemaid's Harp that you get later. Its probably more to do with the fact BRDs favor Wind Skill equipment than because Nursemaid's being a harp. Since people favor wind, however, Mary's Horn has fewer resists on mobs that could resist Lullaby.

As for the TP Burn talk, we already have enough crap BRDs who level/gimp their job in anticipation of this trend. Let's not encourage more of them. I deal with enough gimped BRDs spending more time on Lullaby and Madrigal than giving people proper buffs. Its far more important to learn how to buff in respect to each job early on than to worry about mass-chaining weak mobs much later in the game.

[John Doe III]

What's with this fad lately of people asking for opinions and then attacking Icemage for saying something they don't agree with? It's ok for people to have differing viewpoints; you don't have to argue about who possesses the real divine truth. Just take the advice from the context of Icemage's experience, and if you don't like it just discard it and move on.

/shrug..I'm not doing anything and didn't really ask for an opinion. Just discussing.

From 22-33 you pick up Ice Threnody, Mage's Ballad, Advancing March, Learned Etude, Battlefield Elegy, and Magic Finale - I'd say when you get the last piece of the puzzle (Finale at 33) is when Signa might make a bit more difference, since melee is starting to wane in usefulness at that point and you're also becoming busier with songs. Still, we're looking at a stretch of 7 levels from 33 to 39 where the CHR from Signa outweighs your melee and can't easily be replaced by other gear.
Leaving the rest of it aside, there's two somewhat difficult to acquire weapons that both make the Signa not so dominant: Minstrel's Dagger (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/6685) at 38, and Chanter's Staff (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/6691) at level 40 (which is actually better than the Signa).
Considering the price tag on the Monster Signa, it doesn't really seem worth it for the handful of levels where it's ever so slightly more dominant than the competition.
Couldn't agree more. But those handfull of levels can make all the difference based on -one- person. I dont know how we got this far loool I still think Signa > Mary's Horn till you dont need Signa anymore probably about? 40 when you said.
As for the TP Burn talk, we already have enough crap BRDs who level/gimp their job in anticipation of this trend. Let's not encourage more of them. I deal with enough gimped BRDs spending more time on Lullaby and Madrigal than giving people proper buffs. Its far more important to learn how to buff in respect to each job early on than to worry about mass-chaining weak mobs much later in the game.
Couldn't be more true rofl.

[PanicNow]

Well since the last time i posted i unlocked rng and started camping mary again.... fought her 2 times and got the drop the second time.... then for shoots and giggles i deceided to camp for the monster signa... after what seemed like an eturnity i managed to get that from a drop as wel.... so now i have both problem solved! :thumbsup:

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

What's with this fad lately of people asking for opinions and then attacking Icemage for saying something they don't agree with? It's ok for people to have differing viewpoints; you don't have to argue about who possesses the real divine truth. Just take the advice from the context of Icemage's experience, and if you don't like it just discard it and move on.

I think its just his his opinions have skewed to the KI/Allazite elitest mentality as of late. I'm talking about the "always to the extreme" mentality. Its an attitude that comes from a lot forum-perching endgamers who spend more time in merits and endgame than anywhere else. They forget some people may not care to do endgame at all. Its a tiresome, droll attitude and generally uncharacteristic of these forums.

Honest truth is you can get by just fine with Nursemaid's Harp pre-endgame, Mary's Horn is more for the heavily light-resistant mobs and wind based instruments just seem to work better there, for whatever reason it may be, its been tested and proven to be more effective regardless . Its not a blanket instrument for all levels, but worthwhile to get early on if you're willing to invest the time in camping it.

[Jei]

Once I have some free time I'll grab my harp and sing non-damaging songs to those gold fish in sea I guess. I don't think I'll ever participate balista with BRD tho, but the skill's there and I kinda want to keep them up D:

Are there difference in songs duration between horn and harp?

[TenchiHawkwing]

Once I have some free time I'll grab my harp and sing non-damaging songs to those gold fish in sea I guess. I don't think I'll ever participate balista with BRD tho, but the skill's there and I kinda want to keep them up D:

Are there difference in songs duration between horn and harp?
You could always go out and sleep an Even Match and spam threnodies on it, and resleep and repeat. That works for people w/o sea, or who are near enemies of their level for whatever reason.

(it's how I capped my string)

[Yeargdribble]

As for the TP Burn talk, we already have enough crap BRDs who level/gimp their job in anticipation of this trend. Let's not encourage more of them. I deal with enough gimped BRDs spending more time on Lullaby and Madrigal than giving people proper buffs. Its far more important to learn how to buff in respect to each job early on than to worry about mass-chaining weak mobs much later in the game.

You say this, but you also say this.

I think its just his his opinions have skewed to the KI/Allazite elitest mentality as of late. I'm talking about the "always to the extreme" mentality. Its an attitude that comes from a lot forum-perching endgamers who spend more time in merits and endgame than anywhere else. They forget some people may not care to do endgame at all. Its a tiresome, droll attitude and generally uncharacteristic of these forums.

So which do you want? Do you want the crappy BRDs that level to 75 in a flash and don't know shit, or people that get their information from a solid source and use that information.


Mary's Horn has been said to be more effective than the Nursemaid's Harp that you get later. Its probably more to do with the fact BRDs favor Wind Skill equipment than because Nursemaid's being a harp. Since people favor wind, however, Mary's Horn has fewer resists on mobs that could resist Lullaby.

Well I have a full string build also. I've tried plenty to land Threnodies and Lullabies with both String and Wind with full builds in both directions. The fact still remains that Wind just seems to have more accuracy. You can attack it all you want, but this comes from experience of people that play BRD more than you probably do.



I think its just his his opinions have skewed to the KI/Allazite elitest mentality as of late. I'm talking about the "always to the extreme" mentality. Its an attitude that comes from a lot forum-perching endgamers who spend more time in merits and endgame than anywhere else. They forget some people may not care to do endgame at all. Its a tiresome, droll attitude and generally uncharacteristic of these forums.

As for this… If people want to come and ask for advice about things like Mary's vs. Nursemaid's they will probably get this thread. Both sides have been discussed pretty fairly. The drawbacks and benefits of both have been mentioned.

Would you rather people come and ask "How gimpy can I be if I don't feel like spending money on this job?" Is that the conversation you want us to have? Then we'll end up with another huge number of 75 BRD noobs. You already mentioned you didn't like that.

I don't see what the problem is with discussing all aspects. You are afraid we're pandering only to the endgamers… would you prefer that we only pander to the non-endgamers when we have discussion?

I think Icemage does a very reasonable job off covering all of the bases without alienating anyone.

[Jei]

^
^
^
If you know what Yeargdribble has done with his BRD, you're going to trust his ever words. Like I do xD

[Icemage]

I think its just his his opinions have skewed to the KI/Allazite elitest mentality as of late. I'm talking about the "always to the extreme" mentality. Its an attitude that comes from a lot forum-perching endgamers who spend more time in merits and endgame than anywhere else. They forget some people may not care to do endgame at all. Its a tiresome, droll attitude and generally uncharacteristic of these forums.

If I've been posting advice that has been tending more towards specific party builds, it's because people are asking questions that are more in tune with what they see around them. The prevalence of TP/Manaburn parties in the 55+ level range means quite naturally that the questions that are coming up will touch more on those topics (which I gather you shun categorically), but no discussion of party levelling can be complete without at least mentioning them.

Like it or not, players WILL be facing these situations at 55+ regardless of what job they are playing - even if it's just to find out that there is less demand for their chosen job because other jobs are mana/TP-burning at that level. I see no value in deliberate omission of those discussions, or sugarcoating things by saying they might not have to deal with them. Unless you're in a large social LS with many players at your same level all the time, it's not realistic to say that people shouldn't be aware of what is going to be expected of them by other players.

I don't pass judgment on the playerbase for gravitating towards burn parties - it's a natural progression, since that is currently the most efficient known way to gain XP in the game. Yes, there are alternatives, but they are signicantly less effective, and the players are reacting to this.

By the same token, I don't pass judgment on people who don't buy into the burn mentality and just want to play the game at their own pace - but that doesn't mean that it would be fair to not mention that they're going to have a harder time finding an environment they like if they don't attempt to be at least somewhat accomodating.


Honest truth is you can get by just fine with Nursemaid's Harp pre-endgame, Mary's Horn is more for the heavily light-resistant mobs and wind based instruments just seem to work better there, for whatever reason it may be, its been tested and proven to be more effective regardless . Its not a blanket instrument for all levels, but worthwhile to get early on if you're willing to invest the time in camping it.
I'm sorry, but this statement is just completely wrong. Mary's Horn is noticeably more accurate than Nursemaid's Harp. You do NOT want to be packing a Nursemaid's Harp at end-game except perhaps in Dynamis where the larger AoE might be useful if you have a full string buld (and even then it's iffy since Lullaby is already so inaccurate due to double dark weather). Anyone who says otherwise has never used both.

Like Yeargdribble, I have a full Wind and full String build. The Wind build with Mary's Harp is night and day difference against Nursemaid's Harp with String build.

I wanted very much to like Nursemaid's Harp. I used it for a number of levels in the 60-70 range, but finally gave up and mothballed it in favor of Mary's Harp at 71 simply because I was missing too many clutch Lullaby attempts against VT+ enemies that linked. EDIT: I'll note that I did my Bard to 75 stint BEFORE the burn party madness started, so I only needed Lullaby occasionally. Nowadays if you're in a burn party you're likely casting a Lullaby at least once every 30-45 seconds, which makes the difference much more obvious.


Icemage

[Yeargdribble]

I also wanted to like Nursemaid's.

Annecdote #1:
I used to duo burn with my wife's BLM in sea before ToAU. We could chain Phuabos for XP and I focused very heavily on my String build to make this work more for me.

Eventually, I have in to the rising knowledge that Mary's was superior. After hit or miss sleeping Om'Phuabos with Nursemaid's and a full string build, I pulled my Mary's from a mule and gave it a shot. Keep in mind that at the time I didn't have access to a really strong Wind build. I had no AF+1 legs or even a Wind Earring.

Even with my Wind build being weaker than my string build, Mary's was very noticably more accurate. I was convinced by this and begin working on my Wind build.


Annecdote #2:
After ToAU came out, someone wanted me to burn in Bhaflau. My wife was leveling her BRD at the time and had my Mary's Horn (thank go she has one of her own now). I though that maybe I could pull it off with Nursemaid's a my full String build.

I had many failed sleeps and took some beatings and even deaths. My PT probably thought I was a noob and a gimp. Meanwhile, with Mary's Horn I'd say I have about a 95% (or higher really) land rate of lullaby on Mamool Ja (who are notoriously resistant).



So even if you don't participate heavily in HNM endgame type stuff, you'll find yourself needing the horn. This isn't an issue of being leet or not. A BRD is expected to sleep in current TP burn PTs. Not having the horn in a level 75 burn PT is almost like being a WHM without a light staff.

[UnnamedGalka]

There are a lot of things about this game that confuse me.

The fact that a +1 instrument is more reliable than a +2 is one of them.

[Yeargdribble]

Just realize that Wind is more accruate than String and the world starts to make sense again.