Can't tank!!!

[Malevolent]

Current gear at lvl24=
Rogetsurn
Empress Hairpin
Bounding Boots
Nomad Mantle+1
x2 Courage Rings
Chain Hose
Bannaret Mail
Republic Mittens
Warrior's belt+1
Gassan
Hibari


Anyways...the mob misses me i'd say 60% of the time on a VT to IT mob. When i cast Utsusemi to get shadows back i lose hate. It seems like everytime i cast Ninjitsu i lose hate. Is this normal?? I think maybe i do need to brush up on my partying skills becasue i've been soloing in dunes and pashow....lost some gil on the way to lvlin Nin...took a break and lvled bonecraft and leatherwork to 75...can you say...MONEY PITS!!!

[Murphie]

You could try a Breath Mantle. That little bit of added enmity couldn't hurt.

Otherwise, your gear is really fine. You may want to work on your ACC a bit more if you're not hitting the mob enough (and thus causing it to hate you more), but otherwise, you're really just dealing with the fact that at that level NIN isn't that hot a tank. I much prefer a WAR/MNK or a PLD to a NIN or /NIN tank, but things do get better, I promise.^^

[Sabaron]

Shuriken

[Aeolus]

Just keep voking, nothing else you can really do cept spam elemental spells but I never bother. Voke seems to get hate fine every 30s. Mind you I've not lved past 37 so..

[Murphie]

ShurikenEvery time I suggest shuriken I get my head bitten off by cheap NINs, but I agree - these will also help you to hold hate.

[ValisOfValefor]

Ah, well I know that at this point with ninja hate is a very fickle thing.

I'm at the point you're at also, The only real solution to the problem is to get a partner, and get your partner to work in rotations of the ichi wheel with you (switch off between who does which spell).

Of course me and my static partner have known each other for a good time now, so it was really easy to deal with. We never lost hate.

If you can't get a partner make sure your using your enfeebles well, and use a high breath mantle like everyone else is suggesting.

Of course it doesn't really work when you do more damage than your partner on regular basis :rofl:

[Sabaron]

My problem with Ichi spells:

1. They take a really long time to cast.
2. They don't do significant damage compared to the damage you -could- be causing with blades.
3. They can be interrupted easily while Ichi is down.

My suggestion is throw only enough Ichi's to (a) keep the BLM happy and (b) to keep capped. Otherwise stick to blades and shuriken. If you can't throw, go cap it. Rogetsurin is no substitute for Shuriken--swap in Beetle Ring x 2 in your throwing macro and swap them out at the end of the macro:

/equip L.Ring "Beetle Ring +1"
/equip R.Ring "Beetle Ring +1"
/shoot <t>
/wait 3 {wait 2 would probably be sufficient, but I go 3 just in case}
/equip L.Ring "{other} Ring"
/equip R.Ring "{other} Ring"

Shuriken are expensive... If you can, learn smithing so that you can make them yourself and then use the Mhaura and Selbina Smithing/Weaving guild outlets to buy materials (if you have OP warp). If you don't have OP, you can use the ferry, but that is very slow and iffy if you miss the boat (or the guild is out-of-stock/overpriced). Al Zhabi guild shops also offer good deals on occasion though less often than Mhaura/Selbina. If you can buy them (cheap) from the Tenshodo, you can do that as well--They are sold in Lower Jeuno, Norg, and Nashmau.

If you make them, make more than you'll use and sell a portion of your product (at a profit obviously) to help offset the cost.

[Jarre]

What food do you eat? If your having troubole with ACC then i suggest eating sushi or a Jack O Lantern, this will help. whats your sub to nin? If its war then surely you should be provoking everytime the ability is reay to keep stacking hate?

[IfritnoItazura]

Lose the Rogetsurin, cap your throwing skill (outside of exp party), then switch to shuriken. Follow that with Juji Shuriken when you get to that level. Macro in Beetle Rings +1's for throwing like Sabaron says, then switch back to melee rings. (I wouldn't use /wait; I'd just have one /ra macro with r.acc, and another macro for melee gears.)

Breath Mantle is nice, but I would definitely recommend Dorado Sushi--gives you enmity, and makes both your shuriken throwing and katana swings more effective. Accuracy+ and Enmity+ make great buddies.

At Lv.25+, I loved my Federation Tekko and Republic Subligar. (Hurray for Mithra!) Don't worry, no one will really go blind even if you're not a Mithra. Probably.

* * *

Not sure what you're doing exactly, but Utsusemi casting itself generates fair amount of enmity--I've seen mobs turn/run back to me after I finish casting Utsusemi many, many times on both NIN/WAR and WAR/NIN.

That said, Utsusemi's enmity is no match for Kurayami's. Tell your mages to not cast Blind before you get off a Kurayami attempt at the start of each battle.

* * *

Ichi level Elemental Ninjutsu... er... Waste of time, mostly. You'll get better result using that time to Provoke, swing katana, throw shuriken, attempt Kurayami, recast Utusemi, etc., etc.

The exceptions?

A) Magic Burst. I've actually seen useful damage this way from Tarutaru NIN's. I suspect having Ninjutsu at or near cap would be needed.

B) Lowering resistance to certain element--for mages having trouble with certain debuffs or want to increase accuracy of attack spells. I've only seen this done right by a BLM/NIN. (Yes, BLM/NIN. Honest. And, yes, another Tarutaru.)

Real NIN's should be able to do that just as well if not better, after working out with the mages on the which spell and when.

Otherwise, don't bother with Ichi level elemental attack/debuff Ninjutsu.

[Kurb]

bahh 4get NIN and lvl PLD waring classes are better tanks

[Celeal]

bahh 4get NIN and lvl PLD waring classes are better tanks

Both PLD and NIN can tank just fine....

To OP:
May you please specify under which situation do you lose hate?

Do you lose hate when your casting of Utsusemi: Ichi is interrupted?
Or
Do you lose hate to DD from DoT or spike damage?
Or
Do you lose hate to main healer?

[Kurb]

I suppose but i prefer PLD to NIN cause PLD is more DEF and can stand damage where as NIN is dodge and agility...I suppose it depends on the players mental state realy are you the tought type that takes your licks and helps fellow members or are you the smart player who likes to avoid pain .......I'm the first 1

[Murphie]

Both are great tanks, Kurb. Let's please not have another PLD vs. NIN discussion, since that isn't at all what the thread is about.

[Shirai]

Only nin 22 here so I can't say too much, however as Celeal stated.

How do you exactly lose hate, and also is it just one party where this happened or have several parties bothered you with losing hate?

Spike damage like Weapon skills and overnuking makes it easy to lose hate especially when te fight just started and you didn't get the chance yet to build up decent hate.
Also overcuring generates more hate to the whm.
Also if you get hit hard it's easier to lose hate and nin doesn't have a very high defense at lower levels although evasion makes up a lot.
Some little advise I can give you even with my lack of experience in tank/melee jobs.
At early levels it's recommendable to have an extra provoker to help you out. (IE a second Ninja or a warrior will help loads to get shadows back up and controll hate a little.)
Like stated before some : Ichi enfeebles and nukes (how minor the nukes might be.) also help to keep hate.
A throwing weapon like Shuriken also helps.
Higher damage weapons, will help you build a little enmity. (I offhand a sword myself since Katanas at lower levels are just weak :| .)
And of course if you solo tank (No War or /war to back you up) voke every time the timer is ready.

[Kurb]

Both are great tanks, Kurb. Let's please not have another PLD vs. NIN discussion, since that isn't at all what the thread is about. ok sorry I got carried away there lol


How do you exactly lose hate, and also is it just one party where this happened or have several parties bothered you with losing hate?



As far as I know it depends on things like if someone does a lot of damage to the mob, also certain abailities like 2hours and high lvl cures will steal hate

[Rai]

yup, use the lvl 18 Shurikens, Dorado Sushi. Shurikens will do sick damage.

Shurikens do sick damage for their level. A hit from a shuriken will do more damage that a single attack from any other weapon at those low sub 37 levels. I used R.Acc gear macros.

Dorado* Sushi has + Enmity use that until around lvl 50 then switch to Sole Sushi.

[Omni]

i smell pld vs nin, round 49315.

[Kurb]

naaa

[Icemage]

/moderator hat on

Please stay on topic and stop spamming this thread, folks.

/moderator hat off

---

I think the point about Ninja pre-37 is that your casting times are so long that it's hard to hold hate. It takes 4 seconds to cast any of the Ichi level ninjutsu, including Utsusemi. That's time that you're not swinging your weapon or otherwise gaining enmity, which leaves you just with Provoke as a large occasional hate spike.

I doubt anyone expects a NIN to hold hate well prior to 37 (and indeed it can be fatal if you're faced with a fast attacking enemy who hasn't had Slow or Elegy applied). As far as holding hate goes, NIN doesn't really hit its stride in XP parties until level 40, when the Ni level ninjutsu become available.


Icemage

[Vyuru]

What race are you, judging from your sig I'd guess Elvaan right? What foods do you normally eat?

One thing you might want to try is getting a Cache-nez for provoke macro swaps. But I don't know, I would expect you to lose hate at this level, and it doesn't sound like you are really having a problem unless you are casting utsusemi ichi. Are you using provoke at every chance?

[Rai]

I did a lot of solo leveling up to about 30-32.

Dual Tank set up is pretty standard at those level, there should be another member with Provoke besides just the NIN, war or sam, drk, mnk subbing war.

Again I have to stress that using shurikens is the best way to keep hate pre 50. I was in a party in Western Altep desert where the THF gave up SATA on me and would SATA onto the SAM after the sam Povoked and WS because the SAM could not reliably turn the mob, and I would still get hate right back, and it was because of the shurikens, about 3 hits per mob and Dorado Sushi.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Dorado_Sushi

[Malevolent]

No actually I'm Galkan. My sig was of a good friend who passed away he played on the siren server also named Malevolent.

Anyways I eat chiefkabobs and use sushi depending on the mob or if its availible Arrabbiato. I voke whenever i can. but its in that 30 sec wait i do my ele wheel. During that time i seem to lose hate. Is it because I'm not hitting as much?? I'll try tonite not casting my ele spells and just throw.

Just to amuse the PLD vs NIN lot of you...I'd say they're incompairable...they can both hold hate well in different instances from what i've seen. I would say its a no contest to that matter. Its just a topic for all our debators at heart to vent.

[Omni]

the thing with these lower levels you have to understand is that you cannot expect to hold hate like you do in higher lvls. its just not the same. i think people might confuse their other jobs with the one they are currently playing.

you are in a merit pt at 75 and the nin is holding hate great, well because, his dmg output is awesome. then you go play nin at 27 and wonder wtf? even pld dont hold hate well pre 37.

what i am trying to say is dont expect too much out of any job pre 50. the best solution i have found time in and time out to tanking these lower levels is to duo tank. it works wonders for many reasons.

-eases off the mages since refresh is not a viable option at this level.
-hate holding ablities are limited.
-added safety.
-efficiency.

good luck.

[Malevolent]

Also to add to the holding hate issue Is Hojo comparible to Flash as a hate tool?? I see its the same animation as flash but its the effect of Slow...

[Celeal]

To be honest, if you are expecting NIN/WAR to hold hate like a properly equiped WAR/MNK pre-level 30, your expectation is really high. It is because Shield Break + Provoke -> Boost -> Boost -> Provoke -> Boost -> Boost... is just awesome at your level.

IMHO, Ichi version of elemental wheel casting time is too long. Just focus on Hojo: Ichi and Kurayami: Ichi, and save TP for Blade Retsu. Besides the NIN, a slowed, blinded and paralyzed mob is good for anyone who has the mobs attention.

[Rai]

Any of t he Ninjutsu enfeebles do give an ammount of hate, but I use them for the fact that they make blink tanking easier. I'd rather tank a blind, slow and paralyzed mob than one that is not.

[Omni]

no, hojo is not even close to flash.

enfeebles help build hate but if you need to grab hate right away, hojo will do nothing of the sort.

there are 3 ways for a nin to grab instant hate... but 2 of the 3 have severe limitations to when they can be used.

-provoke: the most reliable and available way for a nin to pull hate quickly.
-warcry: great way to grab hate if your provoke didnt work or your timer is down but on a 5min timer.
-weapsonskill: once you get blade: jin, this will be your bread and butter ws. before this, i find nin ws are very streaky but they can help you to grab hate.

[IfritnoItazura]

Anyways I eat chiefkabobs and use sushi depending on the mob or if its availible Arrabbiato. I voke whenever i can. but its in that 30 sec wait i do my ele wheel. During that time i seem to lose hate. Is it because I'm not hitting as much?? I'll try tonite not casting my ele spells and just throw.

No on kabobs, ABSOLUTELY NO on Ninjutsu wheel (before Lv.40). (See my post earlier on Ichi level elemental attack/enfeeb on how to use those spells--or just don't use them at all.) Eat your Dorado Sushi and like it.

And, definitely lose that Rogetsurin and replace with shuriken.


Also to add to the holding hate issue Is Hojo comparible to Flash as a hate tool?? I see its the same animation as flash but its the effect of Slow...

Nope. Kurayami is better for enmity than Hojo.

[Omni]

funny how the reliance on sushi is so strong now.
i went through nin eating mithakabobs because sushi was not available then. oh how times change.

[Icemage]

Times do change. Sushi has completely transformed the FFXI combat landscape.

For low level NINs, Shuriken are amazing, if expensive. Ichi level ninjutsu: I'll repeat IfritnoItazura's advice not to use them. Too much casting time, not much enmity, not much damage. Unless you want them specifically to lower elemental resistances for a specific element, it's not even vaguely worth using them since you pay such a huge cost in damage and enmity for them, and only use them once right before a skillchain and/or magic burst (the -resist effect always takes place regardless of how much damage you do, and sticks for a while).


Icemage

[Hilde]

my thoughts...I leveled my main and started to work on an alt. leveled PLD & war to 20 before turning to NIN.
I am not sure if it is true or how it works, but I held hate better than the PLD 9 out of 10 times working as a low level NIN.
enemity might carry over from other jobs worked on... /shrug

[Icemage]

my thoughts...I leveled my main and started to work on an alt. leveled PLD & war to 20 before turning to NIN.

I am not sure if it is true or how it works, but I held hate better than the PLD 9 out of 10 times working as a low level NIN.

enemity might carry over from other jobs worked on... /shrug
Enmity doesn't carry over from job to job.

The only reason NIN might hold hate better than PLD for a while in the early levels is before Paladins get access to Cure II, while Ninjas have Utsusemi: Ichi (roughly level 12-16). The NIN will lose less enmity since they're blinking away hits, while the Paladin is steadily losing ground because he's getting hit.


Icemage

[Sabaron]

...(the -resist effect always takes place regardless of how much damage you do, and sticks for a while)...


I believe it's 15 seconds of Resistance down, but I couldn't find a referential link.

[Vyuru]

I honestly don't think you have to use the dorado sushi or shuriken to tank like IfritnoItazura is suggesting.

Don't get me wrong, those are awesome tools to use. However I have partied with plenty of ninja tanks before sushi was ever implemented, and nobody wanted to use shuriken back then either, and those ninjas held hate just fine.

I'm just saying this because last I checked Dorado sushi and any kind of shuriken were hideously expensive even for ninja food/tools.

One thing I see some ninja tanks doing is casting an enfeeble as the puller brings in the mob, provoke, cast utsu when shadows are down and so on, I'm kind of wondering if that is a good thing to do in the lower levels before you get the Ni line of spells?

[Shadowneko]

Enmity doesn't carry over from job to job.

The only reason NIN might hold hate better than PLD for a while in the early levels is before Paladins get access to Cure II, while Ninjas have Utsusemi: Ichi (roughly level 12-16). The NIN will lose less enmity since they're blinking away hits, while the Paladin is steadily losing ground because he's getting hit.


Icemage

Didn't one of the updates fix that? Something about if you loose a shadow you loose Emenity?

anyway I'm silly because I think Nin/war=dead duck anywho XD

And yes I played Ninja but I hated it...3-4 shadows and no DEF(yes you can stack then but I still felt like I was dead man walking!)

[Icemage]

Didn't one of the updates fix that? Something about if you loose a shadow you loose Emenity?
The enmity loss is very minimal. Most Ninjas didn't even notice the change - it certainly hasn't done anything to impact their effectiveness as tanks.


anyway I'm silly because I think Nin/war=dead duck anywho XD

NIN/WAR is actually very effective... once you're past level 37. Tanking in XP parties with just Utsusemi: Ichi is pretty ick.


And yes I played Ninja but I hated it...3-4 shadows and no DEF(yes you can stack then but I still felt like I was dead man walking!)
This is a common complaint. It gets much better once you get +4 shadows from Utsusemi : Ni.


Icemage

[tdh]

funny how the reliance on sushi is so strong now.
i went through nin eating mithakabobs because sushi was not available then. oh how times change.

Times do change. Sushi has completely transformed the FFXI combat landscape.The good ole days when all melee ate Mithkabobs, and all mages ate Pies. S-E said they felt that so many foods weren't getting used so they changed the system. All it did was swap one popular food for another on the melee side, but at least the mages are mixing it up!

As for the OP, I have managed to hold hate, and keep shadows up pre-Lv.37. It just required 2 BLUs spamming Head Butt to do it! ^^ Ninjutsu Blind & Slow do build hate, just as any spell or action in the game does, but they're nowhere on par with Flash or Provoke. I've always looked at them as means to help you keep shadows up.

My last NIN EXP party, as the puller was arriving at the camp, I would head out a bit and throw Kurayami on them then Provoke. I would cast maybe 1 of the Elemental Ninjutsu a fight, purely to level the skill, and meleed away. If you're casting more than one a fight, that's 8 full seconds you're not swinging a Blade, which is your main source of keeping hate.

[Omni]

And yes I played Ninja but I hated it...3-4 shadows and no DEF(yes you can stack then but I still felt like I was dead man walking!)

You just haven't played enough ninja. Ichi tanking is nothing near what a nin can do. With some decent evasion gear mixed with str/atk. Utsusemi Ni + haste will allow you to perfectly tank most mobs when you grind. Yes, you still are wafer thin but it's a fair trade off if you can tank an xp mob losing little to no health at all.

yea, i think se did do the right thing to force the food market away from mithkabob/pie only. i mean back then, thats all any cook sold. now even though sushi is a very large market, melee still do mix things up with meat/sushi/curry/pasta. so all in all, it did us some good.

[IfritnoItazura]

I honestly don't think you have to use the dorado sushi or shuriken to tank like IfritnoItazura is suggesting.

Don't get me wrong, those are awesome tools to use. However I have partied with plenty of ninja tanks before sushi was ever implemented, and nobody wanted to use shuriken back then either, and those ninjas held hate just fine.
Have to? No. No right thinking party would be expecting a NIN to hold the mob solidly, especially not before Lv.40. But, doing the job better is enjoyable--and those are the right tools for doing the job better.

I respectfully disagree on "held hate just fine"; with 7 jobs at Lv40+, I have plenty of lowbie experience, including tanking on PLD and WAR/MNK. My tanking performance on NIN didn't come anywhere near my PLD or WAR/MNK. Even with Dorado Sushi and Shuriken, holding the mobs was a difficult task before Lv.40 for me, and I never seen other NIN's do much better.

I'm just saying this because last I checked Dorado sushi and any kind of shuriken were hideously expensive even for ninja food/tools.

While Dorado sushi is 25k-27k a stack on Ifrit (used to be cheaper), the Noble Lady used as the main ingredient is only 12k a stack. If you don't have a friend with high level cooking, Squid Sushi +1 (40k/stack) is a reasonable alternative which gives AGI instead of Enmity+, and lasts twice as long.

Prices fluctuate a lot, though; two weeks ago I think I paid less than 25k for a stack of Squid Sushi +1, so it pays to visit AH often for price checks.

As for throwing weapon, I camped Tenshodo shops for cheaper Shuriken, but made my own when I can't get them cheap. Ended up selling unused Shuriken for profit... Later, I bugged high level smithing friends for Juji Shuriken.


One thing I see some ninja tanks doing is casting an enfeeble as the puller brings in the mob, provoke, cast utsu when shadows are down and so on, I'm kind of wondering if that is a good thing to do in the lower levels before you get the Ni line of spells?

It's about right, though there isn't a single "most correct" routine, IMO.

Damage is great for enmity, and suriken is great for damage--but not reliable enough to count on at the start of the fight. This is what I ended up doing:

Pre-Lv.40:
Kurayami -> Provoke -> Utsusemi recast -> shuriken -> ... (Provoke/Utsusemi/shuriken/katana swings/other enfeebs)

Lv.40:
Kurayami -> Provoke -> Ni level elemental attack/enfeeb Ninjutsu "wheel" (and Utsusemi recast) -> Provoke -> shuriken -> ... (Provoke/Utsusemi/shuriken/katana swings/other enfeebs)

[Kittykunoichi]

Lvl 65 Ninja/Warrior Elvaan tactic as follows:
Paralyze and/or Slow skill before it reaches party.
If thf availible, other possible provoke'er does so, set up for SATA onto ninja tank (me). After SATA follow up with Provoke just to be safe.
Provoke every chance unless group wants to SATA again.
Elemental Ni Wheel and Enfeeb skills if you loose hate and Provoke is down.
IF you mess up on your Utsusemi, if it goes down too fast or you cast Ichi at a bad time, DONT PANIC, tell your party quickly "Utsu Down". I have a macro for that for emergencies.
Try not to cry when Blade: Jin does crap damage next to the wars, sams and rngs.
Happens to all guys, I'm sure.
--------------
I use Dorado Sushi for Enmity+. I use a chakram so I don't have to keep buying expensive bullets or shuriken. I keep several pieces of body armor and rings for different situations and I have macros for all. Such as "Rng Acc set", "Melee Dmg set" "Eva set". then again I'm a packrat so I gotta use all my crap once in awhile...

[Armando]

As for throwing weapon, I camped Tenshodo shops for cheaper Shuriken, but made my own when I can't get them cheap.I used to camp Tenshodo shops too, but I always felt I never had enough of them XD Still, I really recommend doing this from time to time, they many not carry a lot of them, but they sure are a lot cheaper than at the AH. Back when I was levelling smithing, though, crafting Shurikens wasn't any cheaper than buying them and the AH unless you could HQ them. Don't know how it is now.I believe it's 15 seconds of Resistance down, but I couldn't find a referential link.That's correct. -30 Resistance for 15 secs. I posted a thread in the WAR forums a long-ass time ago, I could dig it up if you want.

Kittykunoichi, your avatar is awesome. Can I have the full pic?