Omgwtfbbqkitten
11-22-2006, 08:31 AM
Note: if the moderators feel this topic is too revealing about a current malicious exploit within the game, by all means, remove it. My intent is not to encourage it, but to see if BRDs are willing to step up and report the issue to SE as it could very well change some of how BRD is currently being played.
Its starting to become commonplace for Mazurka to be used as a method by both RMT and "legitimate" HNMLS players to steal claim from or MPK others. I pointed this out in the MPK fix sticky on the main page, but think its worth discussing on the Bard forum in more depth since a change to Mazurka in the future could alter the way some people like to play the job now.
It starts out under a noble intent - be it genuine or not: "We'll only use it against RMT." But it doesn't take long for that noble intent to fall to ambition or greed, it seems.
For those not familiar with what I'm getting at here - Mazurka has a hate spike greater than or equal to that of Provoke when it lands on all six PT members, the hate spike is lower if it hits fewer people. With the right Haste build, both tiers of Mazurka can be spammed in succession to draw hate. This is more of less part of what allows a BRD/NIN to tank, but now it is also being used to steal claim and MPK.
So lets say you claim an NM or HNM. If you leave /blockaid off, you've given a rival the foot in the door he needs to really make this work well (as with any attemp to steal claim). When they see you take some damage, they'll drop a big cure on you, putting themselves on the NM's hate list. From there, they can start spamming Mazurka x2. So we're talking hate spikes equal to provoke being played constantly and more often than a tank could actually Provoke. PLDs can also be used to claim steal with Invincible, but with less success.
Twice this week at two Faffy camps on my server, two of our NA HNM linkshells on my server have started to use this tactic and while they've not been successful yet, they have manage to get enough hate for Fafnir to go unclaimed. When this happened in one instance this week, the party in question had Faffy dispense his justice on them and went back to being claimed by the original LS. In the other instance claim was not successful either, in fact, it backfired, and the LS in question ended up MPKing themselves. They had enough hate to get Faffy's ire, but not enough to attack and keep claim.
Its only a matter of time until they start to succeed with this and when they do, its going to be all kinds of trouble.
There's never going to be a perfect claim system, that's for sure. There's really no way to make everyone happy. And much like BST, some countermeasures will affect how a job is played. Its been said Mazurka has a hate spike to prevent kiting NMs, yet even in a dungeon (where Mazurka's original function is useless), the song still generates a hate spike.
Were Mazurka's hate spike removed, Mazurka could be used to kite in zones not tied to the rules of dungeons. Whether that's good, bad or just plain obnoxious approach is anyones guess, but leaving a means for players to steal claim/MPK is the worst case scenario as it is.
The removal of the hate spike would come at the cost of the BRD/NIN tanking trend and I'm sure that just as BSTs before them, BRDs would cry "nerf" over it when, in reality, a exploit used for malicious intent was removed.
Recognizing this issue, I'm curious if BRDs and other players are willing to report it. Additionally, I'm curious to hear how people think this particular issue could be resolved without taking away from BRD/NIN. I can't really think of one at present beause I've looked at it from the PT side and alliance side. All my solutions - save for gutting Mazurka hate spike entirely - don't seem too practical and I feel ther would still be exploitable under the current system.
In any case, the first step in preventing this exploit from being successful is putting activating /blockaid the moment you're pulled in to a main alliance. One of the HNMLS members that tried to use this exploit flubbed a /tell that came out in /say. He said "I think they have /blockaid on." And we did. While the use of blockaid doesn't prevent the exploit entirely, it is a much better shield against the Mazurka tactic. It prevents your rival from getting on that hate list directly with a big Cure.
Its starting to become commonplace for Mazurka to be used as a method by both RMT and "legitimate" HNMLS players to steal claim from or MPK others. I pointed this out in the MPK fix sticky on the main page, but think its worth discussing on the Bard forum in more depth since a change to Mazurka in the future could alter the way some people like to play the job now.
It starts out under a noble intent - be it genuine or not: "We'll only use it against RMT." But it doesn't take long for that noble intent to fall to ambition or greed, it seems.
For those not familiar with what I'm getting at here - Mazurka has a hate spike greater than or equal to that of Provoke when it lands on all six PT members, the hate spike is lower if it hits fewer people. With the right Haste build, both tiers of Mazurka can be spammed in succession to draw hate. This is more of less part of what allows a BRD/NIN to tank, but now it is also being used to steal claim and MPK.
So lets say you claim an NM or HNM. If you leave /blockaid off, you've given a rival the foot in the door he needs to really make this work well (as with any attemp to steal claim). When they see you take some damage, they'll drop a big cure on you, putting themselves on the NM's hate list. From there, they can start spamming Mazurka x2. So we're talking hate spikes equal to provoke being played constantly and more often than a tank could actually Provoke. PLDs can also be used to claim steal with Invincible, but with less success.
Twice this week at two Faffy camps on my server, two of our NA HNM linkshells on my server have started to use this tactic and while they've not been successful yet, they have manage to get enough hate for Fafnir to go unclaimed. When this happened in one instance this week, the party in question had Faffy dispense his justice on them and went back to being claimed by the original LS. In the other instance claim was not successful either, in fact, it backfired, and the LS in question ended up MPKing themselves. They had enough hate to get Faffy's ire, but not enough to attack and keep claim.
Its only a matter of time until they start to succeed with this and when they do, its going to be all kinds of trouble.
There's never going to be a perfect claim system, that's for sure. There's really no way to make everyone happy. And much like BST, some countermeasures will affect how a job is played. Its been said Mazurka has a hate spike to prevent kiting NMs, yet even in a dungeon (where Mazurka's original function is useless), the song still generates a hate spike.
Were Mazurka's hate spike removed, Mazurka could be used to kite in zones not tied to the rules of dungeons. Whether that's good, bad or just plain obnoxious approach is anyones guess, but leaving a means for players to steal claim/MPK is the worst case scenario as it is.
The removal of the hate spike would come at the cost of the BRD/NIN tanking trend and I'm sure that just as BSTs before them, BRDs would cry "nerf" over it when, in reality, a exploit used for malicious intent was removed.
Recognizing this issue, I'm curious if BRDs and other players are willing to report it. Additionally, I'm curious to hear how people think this particular issue could be resolved without taking away from BRD/NIN. I can't really think of one at present beause I've looked at it from the PT side and alliance side. All my solutions - save for gutting Mazurka hate spike entirely - don't seem too practical and I feel ther would still be exploitable under the current system.
In any case, the first step in preventing this exploit from being successful is putting activating /blockaid the moment you're pulled in to a main alliance. One of the HNMLS members that tried to use this exploit flubbed a /tell that came out in /say. He said "I think they have /blockaid on." And we did. While the use of blockaid doesn't prevent the exploit entirely, it is a much better shield against the Mazurka tactic. It prevents your rival from getting on that hate list directly with a big Cure.