How much does Race really matter?

[FuxinBrit]

Hello, I have a Mithra and intend on going Blue Mage, but there is also a thought of going Bard. I wouldn't imagine Mithra being that great of a Bard, but does it really matter, or can a Mithra make a fine Bard with equipment?

Thanks

[Murphie]

Ok, a few things.

1.) It's Bard. No one is going to care what race you are. They just want the sweet, sweet stat boosts.

2.) No, your race doesn't really matter. Yes, Mithra has a lower CHR than some, but CHR has less of a bearing on most of your songs than you might think.

3.) Any race can play any job in this game well. So play the race you like, and don't worry about min/maxing (unless that's the only way you'll enjoy the game at which point have at it).

[Icemage]

Bard stats mean a whole lot of nothing. The only stuff that makes any appreciable difference are high quality instruments, gear that adds MP and/or Refresh effect, and anything that boosts Wind skill.

Aside from that, you get marginal effect from everything else, from racial stats to any gear that doesn't fall into the above categories.

Summary: Play what you want. Race doesn't matter for Bards (well, aside from max HP, which actually makes Galkas technically the best bards but it's not that big a deal since Bards don't get hit much until end-game at level 75).


Icemage

[Murphie]

Thanks, Icemage. I know my post had absolutely no merit, so having a mod come in and say the exact same thing makes it all official.

[Icemage]

Thanks, Icemage. I know my post had absolutely no merit, so having a mod come in and say the exact same thing makes it all official.
I didn't think it was possible for Murphie to sub /Murphie, but I guess it is. :D


Icemage

[Murphie]

I have many layers.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Bard stats mean a whole lot of nothing. The only stuff that makes any appreciable difference are high quality instruments, gear that adds MP and/or Refresh effect, and anything that boosts Wind skill.

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/4978/holditbk7.png

CHR is very important for BRD debuffs and that means a lot. There is a very disturbing trend in BRDs I've seen lately and they don't bring a proper CHR build, much less proper HQ instruments. The result being wiped PTs when their "uber" BRD/NIN puller can't sleep a simple link.

What's even worse (if that wasn't bad enough) is most don't even touch skill gear these days. Generally these BRD aren't really even BRDs, just someone with another job looking for easy merits.

Mithra have more than enough access to CHR and MP gear to compensate for their lack of CHR, and ultimately, a Mithra will only ever be 7 points behind and equally geared Taru, Hume or Elvaan. So CHR isn't something mithra as a race should worry about too much, but its something EVERY BRD should consider investing in heavily, period.

[Jei]

That reminds me of a Brd/nin I had last night lol ^^ But hey, that's pretty far ahead to be worrying about right now for the OP

The BRD in my PT couldn't sleep a single puks. He duel wield 2 clubs..........

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

That reminds me of a Brd/nin I had last night lol ^^ But hey, that's pretty far ahead to be worrying about right now for the OP

The BRD in my PT couldn't sleep a single puks. He duel wield 2 clubs..........

It was probably the same one, lol.

Yeah, its pretty far ahead of the OP, before 50, you won't be seeing much skill gear and CHR gear options don't start getting really good until 40. Still you'll aways have the option open to buy HQ instruments and all the multi-75 jobbers refuse to keep something that basic due to inventory space. Just make a mule, for crying out loud!

Heck, I don't really even care if its an HQ, just an instrument gives the proper bonus to its respective song would be fine.

Bottom line: Get in the habit of collecting HQ BRD instruments early. They're hard to come by, but if you're serious about being a BRD, they will be of great benefit. I know so many "endgame" BRDs that still use instruments that add no bonus to the songs they play, its pathetic.

[FranckKnight]

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/4978/holditbk7.png
CHR is very important for BRD debuffs and that means a lot. There is a very disturbing trend in BRDs I've seen lately and they don't bring a proper CHR build, much less proper HQ instruments. The result being wiped PTs when their "uber" BRD/NIN puller can't sleep a simple link.
What's even worse (if that wasn't bad enough) is most don't even touch skill gear these days. Generally these BRD aren't really even BRDs, just someone with another job looking for easy merits.
Mithra have more than enough access to CHR and MP gear to compensate for their lack of CHR, and ultimately, a Mithra will only ever be 7 points behind and equally geared Taru, Hume or Elvaan. So CHR isn't something mithra as a race should worry about too much, but its something EVERY BRD should consider investing in heavily, period.

I think what they meant is that the race itself doesn't matter that much when it comes to CHR. What is the difference between the highest and lower CHR race, 3 points or so?

Gear matters a whole lot more than your race when it comes to CHR at least. Some jobs will be better suited to some races, but all races can play all jobs if they have gear that will either boost their strong points or improve their shortcomings.

Example, Galka using HP to MP gear to trade their abundant HP to help their lacking MP.

That said, Taru might be one of the easiest BRDs to play for another reason altogether than CHR. Their MP pool, even as a subjob, will be better. Most BRDs will use WHM subjob to supplement's the team healing, which suits the job description nicely. A bit more MP can't hurt at all in that manner.

As far as 'pure BRD' goes, every race can do it if they don't gimp on the equipment.

EDIT : Okay, so I didn't see the 7 points CHR note, so append that comment to whatever I said :P

[Macht]

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/4978/holditbk7.png
CHR is very important for BRD debuffs and that means a lot. There is a very disturbing trend in BRDs I've seen lately and they don't bring a proper CHR build, much less proper HQ instruments. The result being wiped PTs when their "uber" BRD/NIN puller can't sleep a simple link.
What's even worse (if that wasn't bad enough) is most don't even touch skill gear these days. Generally these BRD aren't really even BRDs, just someone with another job looking for easy merits.
Mithra have more than enough access to CHR and MP gear to compensate for their lack of CHR, and ultimately, a Mithra will only ever be 7 points behind and equally geared Taru, Hume or Elvaan. So CHR isn't something mithra as a race should worry about too much, but its something EVERY BRD should consider investing in heavily, period.

The only areas that the BRDs stats have any bearing is when it comes to something that attacks the mob. Otherwise the Mage Ballads, Valor Minuettes, and all give the same bonus regardless of the BRDs stats.

It's usually the lullabies that the BRDs can do which are big on the BRDs getting to land. Even with that song there's been testing showing possibility of gear providing more asistance then the player's actual stats, much to the same thing of how Light Staff helps BSTs charm pets better then the high boost to CHR.

[Jei]

I haven't got my brd high enough yet. But from what I gathered, you want to prioritize +skill items first for your lullaby. And chr second. Brd caps at a wooping 238skill at level 75 I think? Compare to Rdm that can reach over 300+ enfeebling with merit and gears, Brd really need a major boost there to land their lullaby consistantly. +skill, HQ staves, etc.

And there's the +haste you must get all on top of that @_@;

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

The only areas that the BRDs stats have any bearing is when it comes to something that attacks the mob. Otherwise the Mage Ballads, Valor Minuettes, and all give the same bonus regardless of the BRDs stats.

It's usually the lullabies that the BRDs can do which are big on the BRDs getting to land. Even with that song there's been testing showing possibility of gear providing more asistance then the player's actual stats, much to the same thing of how Light Staff helps BSTs charm pets better then the high boost to CHR.

Spoken like a TP burn generation BRD. Don't post misleading, incorrect information, please. To tell a upcoming BRD that buffs are all that matters is a disservice to people levelling the job seriously. Buffs are a huge part of the job, but debuffs should never be taken lightly. Additionally, BST gets by on less because their EXP bread and butter is T and VT, not IT++. The ToA generation BRD can get away with this on T and VT as well, but against IT++ its not as effective.

VT mobs will not come into play regulary until 54+ for BRD. Pre-55, in RoZ/CoP zones and at 75 against gods and HNMs, you'll want every advantage possible in landing debuffs. ToA mobs are pathetically weak by comparison and gauging how BRD should be played based solely on that is asking to make more weak BRDs.

CHR is important for Lullaby, Finalie, Elegy and Threnody.

For Lullaby: CHR, Light Staff, Mary's Horn and wind skill gear have been proven to be the most effective in making Lullaby land and stick.

For Finalie: all that's required is Light Staff and a good CHR build. What instrument is optional, since Military Harp's benefits have always been debateable since Finalie is seldom resisted.

For Elegy: CHR, Earth Staff Wind skill gear and Horn +1 all the way. This is by far the most important debuff BRD has as its not only more potent that Slow, but also stacks with Slow. NINs and PLD love it, and with good reason.

For Threnody - CHR and the complimenting elemental staff, Instrument and skill gear do the job. But its often hard for BRD to haul all the instruments, skill gear AND elemental staves, too. So this is the one that gets least focus. Still, in some situations it can be beneficial to nuke damage.

CHR does not affect buffs in the slightest, but +skill gear and HQ instruments do affect the potency of your buffs. This should not be overlooked. Skill gear will add points of attack to songs like Minuet just like an HQ instrument itself would. CHR itself is strictly for debuffing.

Finally, Haste gear is only beneficial in endgame/merit situations an really just players more into the BRD/NIN trend than playing the job effectively from 1-72. I mean, really, with HQ instruments you'll be pushing a little over two minutes for each buff and in most cases, you'll just be spamming them anyway.

Haste gear is for when you have mages or melee in alliance running every which way and you're having a hard time landing buffs on people who won't sit still. You also have to use harps in situations like that for the widest AOE possible since you'll likely be stuck in all melee or all mage PT in an allaince at that point.

Otherwise, Haste gear is for BRD tanking and to keep things flowing as BRD/NIN in merit PTs.

[Macht]

Spoken like a TP burn generation BRD. Don't post misleading, incorrect information, please. To tell a upcoming BRD that buffs are all that matters is a disservice to people levelling the job seriously.
CHR is important for Lullaby, Finalie, Elegy and Threnody.
For Lullaby: CHR, Light Staff, Mary's Horn and wind skill gear have been proven to be the most effective in making Lullaby land and stick.
For Finalie: all that's required is Light Staff and a good CHR build. What instrument is optional, since Military Harp's benefits have always been debateable since Finalie is seldom resisted.
For Elegy: CHR, Earth Staff Wind skill gear and Horn +1 all the way. This is by far the most important debuff BRD has as its not only more potent that Slow, but also stacks with Slow. NINs and PLD love it, and with good reason.
For Threnody - CHR and the complimenting elemental staff, Instrument and skill gear do the job. But its often hard for BRD to haul all the instruments, skill gear AND elemental staves, too. So this is the one that gets least focus. Still, in some situations it can be beneficial to nuke damage.
CHR does not affect buffs in the slightest, but +skill gear and HQ instruments do affect the potency of your buffs. This should not be overlooked. Skill gear will add points of attack to songs like Minuet just like an HQ instrument itself would.
Finally, Haste gear is only beneficial in endgame/merit situations an really just players more into the BRD/NIN trend than playing the job effectively from 1-72. I mean, really, with HQ instruments you'll be pushing a little over two minutes for each buff and in most cases, you'll just be spamming them anyway.
Haste gear is for when you have mages or melee in alliance running every which way and you're having a hard time landing buffs on people who won't sit still. You also have to use harps in situations like that for the widest AOE possible since you'll likely be stuck in all melee or all mage PT in an allaince at that point.
Otherwise, Haste gear is for BRD tanking and to keep thigns flowing as BRD/NIN in merit PTs.


I don't see much difference in what I just said you detailed out. Like I stated BRD stats only needed when targeting mobs. just as you've put forth Therondy, Elegy, Finalie, and lullaby all target mobs. I had no intent of weighing it to either side because I'm not foolish enough to believe that one side can be stronger then the other. It's more a matter of how the player plays it, and the people around who understand and able to adapt.

Outside of that I've never bothered to pay attention to how a TP burn party with a BRD in it would work (Not to mention never been intrested of a TP burn party, never saw the need or purpose when parties I joined could gain 2-3 levels in the 60+ range in just a few hours. I mearly stated off the bassis of how I've seen them used for large fights and generally the most used ability is Lullaby. Even still like you've backed up on what I ment you also confirm that there is more gear that can assist the ability then the character's base stat.


If you want me to be clearer my statement was to point out that buffs to PCs are pretty mechanical. Mage Ballad restoring 2mp/1 tick, and II doing like 3mp/1 tick (Not actual not bothering to be precise right now, no time for it). Same with Minuete were it'll be like I will raise attack 30, II raise it 70, and so on. The buffs are hard numbers so stat effects (even gear for the most part) to them have little purpose. The best is gear might extend the time they stay on you or range you can do the song but the numbers are still pretty hard set.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I don't see much difference in what I just said you detailed out.

The difference is vague information vs. detailed information. Anyone could have taken what you said as the gospel truth and just neglected picking up much CHR gear when it does play a role in what BRD does.

Outside of that I've never bothered to pay attention to how a TP burn party with a BRD in it would work (Not to mention never been intrested of a TP burn party, never saw the need or purpose when parties I joined could gain 2-3 levels in the 60+ range in just a few hours. I mearly stated off the bassis of how I've seen them used for large fights and generally the most used ability is Lullaby. Even still like you've backed up on what I ment you also confirm that there is more gear that can assist the ability then the character's base stat.

Every PT these days at 60+ is a TP burn, though not quite as effective. I try for a balanced PT when I can, but they're hard to get now. I find it hard to believe you would have avoided the trend entirely at 60+. I'm going through it as COR now, so were my BRD somehow the same level now, I have a very good idea of what of how it would all pan out.

Elegy, by far in EXP, is the most commonly used debuff. If Lullaby is the most common, you have a BRD pulling. All in all, Elegy and Slow are provided for the tank, so not all jobs really feel the benefit there. Haste on the other hand, most people can enjoy unless you happen to be COR or RNG.

If you want me to be clearer my statement was to point out that buffs to PCs are pretty mechanical. Mage Ballad restoring 2mp/1 tick, and II doing like 3mp/1 tick (Not actual not bothering to be precise right now, no time for it). Same with Minuete were it'll be like I will raise attack 30, II raise it 70, and so on. The buffs are hard numbers so stat effects (even gear for the most part) to them have little purpose. The best is gear might extend the time they stay on you or range you can do the song but the numbers are still pretty hard set.

While the buffs may be a static bonus based on skill caps, you can never have enough attack in EXP. I treat BRD like any job I'd take seriously, I don't rest on my laurels and hope my job abilities/spell will accomplish everything for me. BRD may grant a static bonus to stats, but that's no reason not to push it further in EXP PTs.

It does get a bit frivelous at Merit/Endgame levels, but if you can get more out of March or Mambo, I'm sure a NIN would appreciate that. Melees would love to save on Attack food and what Minuets give is generally better than what they could buy. Not so much the case with Madrigal since its a fixed bonus and sushi is a percentage bonus, sushi wins out there. Still, for most of the buffs BRD can offer a PT, skill gear will push those buffs a little further and every bit can help.

[Macht]

So we are more or less stating the same thing. I by no means though would dare control a players choice of progression. It's bad strategy and only feeds to kill a game, it's absolutly horrid to do when the game starts segmenting and forcing specializings.

The one beauty and potential FFXI has if designed right with the jobs is they can have many great methods to accomplish things just waiting to be discovered. Much like Magic. You playing an opponent that has conformed to a stratedgy that's well known he becomes weak against someone clever enough to sneak a surprise on them.

[Yeargdribble]

I would just like to add that Icemage is pretty straight on target. CHR is of extremely negligable importance. In my considerable experience I've found that the sweet spot for landing songs (Elegy, Lullaby) on XP mobs is around 100-110. If I fall below 100 I will start to have noticable resists, but as long as I keep just over 100 (my pulling set puts me at 102 currently) I have about a 99% land rate on Mamool Ja, which are notoriously resistant.

Now, at 75, with gear I can push over 200 CHR (Base+gear). There is no shortage of CHR gear in this game. Aim at getting to a safe spot with your CHR and then aim at skill and MP and anything else.

Base+(Base/2) is roughly the equation I use for the sweet spot. If you are a Mithra you may want to add on to it by a few points. My wife is a Mithra leveling BRD and she goes by this and has no problems stickings sleeps or Elegies at all.

[Icemage]

Thanks for the clarification, Yeargdribble. I'm also pretty happy with 100+ CHR at 75. For most of my Bard career, as long as I spent a "reasonable" amount of attention on CHR, I never had problems with Elegy/Threnody/Lullaby (and who cares about Requiem?). Besides, stacking a zillion CHR has less total effect than equipping a Wind instrument with a bonus to your song and using the appropriate elemental staff.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

You say this:

I would just like to add that Icemage is pretty straight on target. CHR is of extremely negligable importance. In my considerable experience I've found that the sweet spot for landing songs (Elegy, Lullaby) on XP mobs is around 100-110. If I fall below 100 I will start to have noticable resists, but as long as I keep just over 100 (my pulling set puts me at 102 currently) I have about a 99% land rate on Mamool Ja, which are notoriously resistant.

Then this:

Base+(Base/2) is roughly the equation I use for the sweet spot. If you are a Mithra you may want to add on to it by a few points. My wife is a Mithra leveling BRD and she goes by this and has no problems stickings sleeps or Elegies at all.

Yeah, Base + (Base/2) is the "sweet spot." Anyone that's putting that amount of CHR into their BRD is doing just fine in general. This is hard to accomplish at lowel levels, but easier to do once you pass the 40 mark and more CHR gradually becomes available to you.

Base + (Base/2) or - to put it in English - equipping enough CHR gear to meet half your character's naitive CHR at your current level. That's not of "negligable importance," that's adequate and what any BRD should try to aim for. Saying its of "negligable importance" is just like saying its "not important." Yeah, its not important to you, but to others not yet at endgame levels, its rather important to hit that mark. At endgame, lots of things we do in EXP go right out the window and sometimes no longer apply.

I'm just tired of endgame advice weaseling its way into a beginner's discussion, be it through vague or inconsistant wording or not. If you're not going to give advice at the relative experience level (or have forgotten what that was like) then its just best not to reply at all.

You could have just said, "Mithra do just fine as BRDs, they get enough CHR gear to compensate for the loss" and been done with it. But then it veered into CHR supposedly being "not important" when it actually is.

[Mhurron]

You could have just said, "Mithra do just fine as BRDs, they get enough CHR gear to compensate for the loss" and been done with it. But then it veered into CHR supposedly being "not important" when it actually is. What loss? You mean that whole whopping 8 CHR difference between a Mithran BRD and TaruTaru BRD at lvl 75, or the 4 points difference at 37?

That difference is too small to have an impact, and if you were so worried about it, gear 'makes up for it' by lvl 15.

Every BRD, no matter what the race, is pretty much going to need the same gear because the racial differences are too small to matter. This isn't like comparing a Taru BLM to a Elvaan BLM where the Elvaan has to wear the equip that I have just to get close to matching what INT I have unequipped.

[Icemage]

I don't think anyone was suggesting that Bard should ignore CHR. But unlike other jobs, Bards get some ridiculously good gear for their primary stat very early - Jester's Cape+1 and Corsette+1 at 40 give a combined +16 CHR, which gets you nearly all the CHR you'll ever need for the rest of your levelling career. Tack on a Bird Whistle or other minor +CHR neckwear, and maybe a couple of CHR rings and you're basically set, regardless of what race you happen to be.

I even think Yeargdribble's estimate of Base + Base/2 is a bit high. +20-25 at any level seems to be more than sufficient for XP purposes. Against tougher HNMs, then you'll want that 100-110 total.


Icemage

[Yeargdribble]

I'd agree that Base + (Base/2) is a little high, but it's a safe estimation for all races. I don't think it's 100% negligable, but compared to the way some BRDs gear. I think people over-estimate the worth of CHR. I just think it's bad to get carried away with the mentality of "If less is more, then imagine how much more more would be!!" I see too many CHR whores

[UnnamedGalka]

Brd caps at a wooping 238skill at level 75 I think?

Even less than that: 225.

But the thing to remember is that, when playing an instrument, your Singing skill is factored in as well.

[FuxinBrit]

Wow, well thank you all for your input.

I think I will be happy staying a Mithra from the sounds of it, I will just do my best to make up the little bit missing from CHA in gear.

Thanks again

[Yeargdribble]

And on the other bright side, Mithra looks hawt in most of our gear ^^