hate undercutters

[Ayrlie]

last friday i listed a stack of gold beastcoins on the AH for 145k when they were going for 150k a stack in jeuno and only 1 stack was listed. fast forward to today, where my gold beastcoins still haven't sold, been returned twice, and dropped to 90k with 12 stacks up. the other day there were over 30 stacks up. there is rarely more than 5 or 6 stacks of gold beastcoins up during any normal circumstances.

with gold beastcoins being a major source of my income from chocobo digging on the server, i'm very dissapointed at the peeps that decided this undercut was a good idea. I only put 1 or 2 stacks of gold beastcoins up per week and I found this undercut a huge insult.

[Neppy]

OMFG i know exactly how you feel. Some of the monkies on my server have killed rainbow thread from 200k to 100k in damn near close to a week, nothing worse then having to post on AH to see the next day its 30k less then it was the day before and the following day yet again undercut again. Dont get me wrong its nice seeing prices drop some, but when two or three people absolutely rape an items price in just a couple days just pisses me right off.

[Lilani]

Hey, at least you still have some way of income. About six months ago, I made my profit by selling mythril sheets for 150k per stack on the AH. I would buy the ores from the Windurst airship shop for 1.4k each, and proceed to make ingots and stacks. It took about 90k to make a stack of sheets, given I have minimal mistakes and very cheap or farmed crystals, and 60k was a mighty profit per stack. Typically I'd make two stacks, sell, make a couple more, and so on.

Well, after a few weeks of this I had gathered around 500k and someone decides to make the mythril costs divebomb. They hovered at around 110k, which was too risky to gamble that close to the cost of making them, considering my goldsmithing is only 41, and now sheets are going for about 90k.

Lately I've been making my money desynthing silver earrings and mining, howver, I am now down to 6k because some retard decided to take the price of a scroll of reraise from 15k to 30k, and it was hovering at 40k last I checked.

The lesson: Never under OR over cut, it makes either the sellers angry or the buyers revolt. Just sell it at the base price, if you don't have time for wait for it to sell then tough luck, you should have planned ahead of time.

[raidenn]

Just wait it out. The price will come back, most of the time. Just take out your listing and watch for the price to go up slowly.

[neighbortaru]

i think this is the general signs of deflation across all the servers (because of banned gil sellers, ppl quiting game, whatever).

if you've ever complained about how the economy was too high/everything too expensive, etc. sucks now when you're on the selling end doesn't it? :P

(yeah, my main source of income is shot too)

[Neppy]

Its gotten to the point were if you dont HQ synth ALOT you dont make a profit, and even if you do HQ alot some monkey comes behind you and kills any hope of profit. Im close to saying screw crafting all together and just camp NMs, do ksnm and bcnm for money. There is almost no profit in crafting unless your damn near capped in it, and even then its only on certain items (which immediately get undercut)

[Jei]

I'm still fishing for money. I don't make as much anymore but since everything are also cheap, it's not too bad I guess.
I can afford 3-4 days of bullets for my COR with 1 day of fishing and cooking

[Omni]

its even worse for hard to sell rare items.

bloodsword went from 1.5 > 1.4 > 1.2 > 1.2 > 1.2 > 1.1 > 1.1> 900k, 800k, 800k.

:\

[kiffkin]

I wrote a long reply here about the nature of the ah system and how supply/depend can be used to make money. Then I noticed the OP had two crafts at level 100.

If I was insulted every time I got undercut, I'd have mpked most of Vana'diel by now. Just switch to one of your other markets. You cannot seriously be suggesting that you can't find a single synth that provides you with 300k a week profit amongst 2 crafts? I can do that with only one of them without breaking a sweat.

[Sabaron]

Even at Alchemy 86, pretty much every source of income is gone--Jusatsu are overstocked and underpriced to the point where my HQ rate needs to be roughly 55-60% to break even, Silent Oil and Prism Powder and requisite compounds are the same. Some idiot sold a Stun Kukri for 10k (800gil more than you can get from the vendor). I say pretty much because I found a couple, but I'm not going to which ones for fear that idiots will invade these island markets and soon there will be 4,872 in stock because they'll skill up on them, dump them into the econ at 10gil each and take a 4mil loss because they bought all their gil anyway. ^^

[Karinya]

I think it's funny how economy threads are about evenly split between people pissed off when prices go up and people pissed off when prices go down.

It's an economy. Prices change. Deal with it.

[Raydeus]

last friday i listed a stack of gold beastcoins on the AH for 145k when they were going for 150k a stack in jeuno and only 1 stack was listed.

That's how prices goes down, the only difference is some sellers are more extreme and cut by a higher amount, but the act is the same. Not trying to bash or anything, but you shouldn't complain about it if you do it yourself, that's just the way the market works.

[Vyuru]

Im close to saying screw crafting all together and just camp NMs, do ksnm and bcnm for money.

Meh, I hit the screw KSNM and BCNM stages awhile ago. Once those new IS battles came out, Erase went below 100k, and utsu Ni was dropping in price as well last I checked. There went my two biggest money makers and I am not going to the trouble of organizing a BCNM run given if at best I make 60k from it (60k after being split 3-6 ways)

KSNM item prices are dropping fast as well, and it's just not really worth it right now to do the KSNM 30 fights.


I used to have a nice profit going on with making synthing materials for cloth crafters since my cloth and leather crafting levels isn't high enough yet to make anything that people really want to exp in. But people are being rather brutal in that market, silk cloths went from 120k/stack to 30k/stack in about 3 days, there are a couple of people who are doing everything to drive other people out of the market sadly. In this instance, it is not a case of skillup and then move on.


It's an economy. Prices change. Deal with it.

But we don't wanna! :P



Seriously though, there are other ways besides crafting and stuff to make money, some of which can be very good. And no I won't tell you because the secret is mine, all mine! And the info is on the web for anyone who looks anyways.

[Sabaron]

I'm not really terribly bothered by anything other than the fact that I no longer have any major source of stable income despite having excellent skill--of course everybody and their brothers (cousins, uncles, aunts, nephews, neices, sisters, great grandparents, etc.) are Alchemists which is the biggest problem with Alchemy. Too many skiller-uppers not enough profiteers, and I know there are gilsellers crafting in Alchemy, but I can't see why they of all people would not want to gouge every dime possible out of the industry. I think primarily it's the stackable consumables that are far too attractive to skillup people with loads of cash--the kind of people who make holy leather and then toss it because it's worthless but easy to make.

GS has been known to fervently camp Passhow Beastman Blood as well, this makes me leery of even attempting Jusatsu because every time I invest 60k in a stack of blood, that that 60k will never return to the economy until some dink buys it from (60k is the current price; I used to happily pay 300k a stack when it was low supply).

I try not to buy GS related products--I know that Eastern classes (MNK especially) crave Jujitsu Gi's and they're practically required garb, so every time a MNK gets put down for not having one and then goes and buys it, GS steals more gil from the economy.

This is not a gradual deflation--it is absolutely massive. The basic problem is the Gilsellers in the first place because they [I]hoard gil rather than cycling it in the economy. Rare items are resistant to deflation because there still exist people with large cash stores. What happens is that, effectively, all people who are working on building a bank roll are shut out of the higher level economy, so the "Middle Class" as one would say becomes unable to produce enough income at the adjusted price levels to purchase exceptionally high-quality gear like Scorpion Harnesses (steady at 2mil on Asura, though the HQ has dropped 50% from 8mil to 4mil). Eventually these items will deflate as well because of lack of demand, but at least for now, they are out of reach.

If I can only make 1k per stack of whatever item, then it's going to take me an incredibly long time to save up for a good piece of gear. Overstock is what I see... too many people trying to make money and not enough spending.

Buying stuff gives other people money to buy stuff and the money goes round and round. The problem is that if you get stuck without a chair [read: profitable market] to sit in when the music stops, you're back to square 1 farming crystals to afford picks so you can go dig in the mines.

If you don't value your work, you damage the economy. All work has value--Wal-marting (selling product below cost of production) damages the market in which you operate. This is really the only economic occurance that I dislike, and it's basically attributable to overstock. You made too much so you can't sell it all, you don't want it cluttering up your Mog Warehouse, and you need to get rid of it so you can make too much of something else, so you sell it at a loss. This is retarded. If you purposely ruin your own source of income by degrading the market, how do you plan to use your crafting skills to make money once the market is dead?

I have a tendency to make products which are understocked in order to bring market values back up. Popular products such as Stealth Meds, various potions, Ninja Tools, and munitions are overstocked frequently because people overextend themselves trying to make money now. Impatience is a key factor here. They want the money now so they take a loss!? Seriously... If you're manufacturing some product that I'm tier 3 on and I cannot make a profit off of it how are you going to make a profit off of it when you sell at below market unless you farm your reagents? The answer: you can't.

Every major Alchemical market on Asura (currently) has been reduced to a farming market. You cannot use materials purchased from the AH to make money. You have to farm/manufacture them yourself which is what I have been doing and it's also why I've been playing in non-alchemy goods--there are some things that I can make that most other people don't make, can't make, or don't know about.

Oh and the new Darksteel Slayer Kilijs... Don't bother... They're crap. It took me 2 or 3 weeks to sell mine and I lost about 50k in AH fees. If you HQ one, it might be worth something, but there are much nicer items that are in a wider market (e.g. bigger than BLU onry). The Adaman Slayers look attractive, but have you seen the ingredients list on the Adaman Kilij? The things on that list would give a Smith multiple seizures (not that the Darksteel one is a frolic in the field either)...

[Taskmage]

As discussed in the previous thread on the subject, it isn't really the fact that prices are changing that's the problem. That happens in an economy and we should deal with it. The problem is that the fast-moving consumable items that the majority of the populous use as their main source of income adjust in price much faster than the slow-moving, high-dollar luxury items that everyone's saving to get. It's a classic "rich get richer, poor get poorer" scenario like people complain about when referring to real-world economies.

To make things worse, because prices are falling people are bailing on their usual sources of income to seek better money in other markets, flooding and crashing them as they go because the balance between buyers and suppliers of low- to mid-range goods is already in a pretty precarious state anywhere you look. It's a tough time to be a "middle class" farmer or crafter.

As far as RMT is concerned, I don't have a broad enough picture to assign sweeping blame, but I can say they're like tapeworms on cooking and fishing. Squid and sole sushi have been controlled by them as long as I can remember, and when the fishing bots came back in force a couple months ago, the prices on nearly all profit fish by 60-80% of their original value, literally almost overnight.

Nowadays, most of my income comes from selling items to NPCs.

[Vyuru]

Nowadays, most of my income comes from selling items to NPCs.


Yeah, same here. Which is kind of sad when you look at how much NPCs pay for items and then you look at all the melee gear you need/want, I dunno how I'm going to pay for it all.

Getting closer to having all the gear that I need to buy though, the last 2-3 million are just gonna be a stretch.

[Omniblast]

I like undercutters. I havn't been playing much, but when someone puts a Centurion's Sword up for 16k, and others are up at 20k, I think that's smart to move material as fast as possible.

I might be waiting for another sword for 16k, anyone want to sell one to me? :)

[Sabaron]

If I can bid an item (generally in my category) that I can sell to NPC for within 1k of the AH list price, I buy it and NPC it to control the market so I can sell product for a reasonable price--I can't catch everything though...

[Chveya]

I'm a middle-class player, and my main source of income was drastically undercut a couple of weeks ago, and I am trying to figure out what to do next. None of my craft skills are high enough to make a profit, so I rely on farming and gardening. I have tried Pashow once, but it is fairly heavily camped, by RMT and others. I filled up on clusters quickly while waiting for goobues and leeches to pop, but clusters are a pain and I'd rather not fill my inventory for only 1-2k a pop. I will probably go back to the area once more and then determine if it is at all worthwhile.
I was researching the price of Beastmen Blood and noticed, if names are any indication, that it seems to be bought and sold almost exclusively by RMT. I'm unsure whether I want to enter a market that seems so dominated by RMT; I feel as if I would be helping them somehow. It's really not fair, because that market probably only got that way because real players were pushed out.

[Fliegar]

The way I see it, is if enough of the items get undercut, then you're pretty much back to square one. You get tons of money selling a specific item, while other items cost a ton of money to buy. When you're making a small amount of money from the same item a while later, (after the undercuts) hopefully the items that you want to buy will be lower as well.

I can see how you would be mad if just a single item was undercut. Just recently I have been making Silent oils and Prism powders... but with many more people making them for a profit (Some just skilling up and pawning them off cheap) I can't seem to make a decent profit anymore either.

It works both ways I guess.

(If this post made no sense to you, it may be because I'm severely tired from lack of sleep).

[Sabaron]

Well, I just did my forecasting for Alchemy products, and it seems that a number of the markets have recovered.

I will say, however, that a deflating market is bad for sellers, but good for hoarders. The hoarders' money becomes more valuable while those who are participating in the economy have their money "balanced" with the economy. The most fervent hoarders are, of course, gilsellers who do not participate in the economy. Gilseller Real-money prices will likely rise due to the deflation--it might actually end up being good for business and bad for new players who will now not be able to get ahead because of the deflating markets.

[soulfringe]

Not to burst your bubbles or anything, but if Billy Bob Joe Schmoe goes through the same stress of gaining the items to sale on the AH, shouldn't he be entitled to sell the items at the price he deems worthy ?

He may be undercutting you, but he went through the same work as you, making less profit then you, and your going to hate him for it ?

So long as everyone else keeps their prices the same, the current market value shouldn't decline so much. Unless Mr. Schmoe has a monopoly on the market.

Feel free to flame me and all, im kind of used to it.

[Sabaron]

Well... that's really not my issue. If you go out and farm Beastman Blood, fish up squid, and harvest Elm Logs, you'll be hard pressed to keep up with my production rate, therefore, you will have only a marginal effect on the market in general regardless of what you charge. Crafting from the AH, I can produce roughly 27 Jusatsu Toolbags from 6 stacks of beastman blood, putting me in the Toolbag (Jusa) x 12 category. You would be hardpressed to farm that much blood as fast as I could use it. Therefore, a farm-crafter has difficulty interfering with production.

If you go out and get a Monster Signa and sell it for 20k... You won't have nearly any effect on the market whatsoever because the item is rare enough that you'll just give someone an item that they can turn around and sell again for 2mil thus depriving yourself of some 1.98mil in profits.

Of course Joe Schmoe can charge whatever he likes, FFXI is a "Free Market" economy not some Communist Gulag where all the prices are fixed.

The general undercutting problem is a standard supply/demand issue. Joe Schmoe sells one unit into a 20 unit per week market, nothing happens to the market--some guy just gets a deep discount and goes home happy. Now say Joe Schmoe starts dumping 5 units per week into a 20 unit per week market. He is now going to generate an overstock of roughly 5 units per week. The people at the top price (or everyone else if the price is low-flux) are going to get the shaft and they'll relist to undercut Joe so their merchandise sells. This continues until the demand rises to meet the excess supply. Now the pool of money (which may be larger) is divided amongst a larger group of people. If the new demand level does not produce the same per-capita revenue, then the people who haven't diversified their production will have to produce more items to achieve a larger market share... The cycle continues until the profit margin dips so low that anyone capable of making something else abandons the market... Supply drops... Prices rise... Circle of Life.

The current problem is not related to this cycle. The current problem has to do with the destruction (or removal from circulation via Gilsellers) of currency. When you remove currency from the economy, the currency that remains in the economy is effectively increased in value. This means that the prices will drop to meet the new currency value. The problem with this is that it discourages buying because merely hoarding and doing nothing with your money makes you richer. Therefore, demand drops sharply and overstock balloons until the sellers give up. Sellers liquidate their product (Wal-marting usually just to get rid of it), fouling the market by aclimating buyers to the new low-low prices.

There is a safety in place for this but it is not market dependant. NPC merchants will buy wares for a certain "floor liquidation price", but the floor is generally way to low to be acceptable for a merchant, so all of the items end up on the AH instead...

I think I'll continue this post elsewhere (It's led off into a tangent more appropriate for Ask SE Questions).

[Ayrlie]

I'll likely be holding on to some of the stuff until the x-mas holiday hits and spending goes up. . .

[Vyuru]

There is a safety in place for this but it is not market dependant. NPC merchants will buy wares for a certain "floor liquidation price", but the floor is generally way to low to be acceptable for a merchant, so all of the items end up on the AH instead...


It would be nice if the prices of the items you sell to npcs changes with demand. There are some days where cotton doublets are sold from the cloth crafting guild for over 150,000 gil, yet they buy them for under 2,000 gil, and I want to say it's more like 1,300 gil. You'd think that we could get at least 30k for the price the guild wants for them.

[Murphie]

I'll likely be holding on to some of the stuff until the x-mas holiday hits and spending goes up. . .Don't be surprised if the fabled Christmas inflation isn't all that drastic. With all the people hoarding items to sell at an inflated price, and the amounts of gil that have been removed from the servers lately, things aren't looking good for big profits.

And it's all relative anyway. If everything does shoot up in December, then that just means that you'll have to pay more for the luxury items that you want, and all that gil won't be worth nearly as much as would be right now.