Rng/brd???

[OWA_900]

Would there be any cool and actual good benefits from this combo? Or would it just be all bad? Would appreciate some descriptive reasons please, thanks.

[Sabaron]

When at low level, I use BRD and PUP subs for their nifty powers.
If you configure your puppet as a Refreshed Backup Healer, you don't have to rest as much. The same goes for using Paeon with /BRD.

I don't know why a single gimped buff would be of much use in general over the bonuses that you would get from say.... Utsusemi.

[EDIT: NVM]
Not thinking... SATA doesn't work with Ranged Attacks... SAM might be nice though, but I think Dual Archers/Hawkers is probably the best thing a RNG can add with sub-job--it's very nice to have all that extra Accuracy.

[Intensity]

I can't imagine the single Minuet you could get @ 30+ could compare to the extra damage you'd get from Zerk and the RACC+ you'd get from Prelude wouldn't do more than the +20-22 from Archers/Hawkers instead of subbing NIN so no, I couldn't think of a reason it'd make you a better RNG. Below 30, who knows. =P

[Caspian]

Pre-24, I can't think of a reason that /brd would be all that bad. Paeon is nice and would actually probably be of use to your party. The accuracy bonus from /DRG doesn't stack with RNG's innate accuracy bonus. Iirc, boost doesn't affect ranged attacks, and you wouldn't get enough mp from a mage healing job to really be of any use. Stat differences from subs are minimal at that level too. Crap, the more you look at it, /brd early on is a pretty decent sub. Keep in mind though, it becomes arguably worse at 24, then again at 28, and definately 3rd rate at 30.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

RNG/BRD - Ranger that thinks he's a Corsair.
COR/NIN - Corsair that thinks he's a Ranger.
COR/RNG - Accomplishes what you're looking for

Anyway, while lots of subjobs can work pre-30 and no one really cares at that level, past 30 I'd look at /WAR and /NIN a bit more seriously for long-term RNG EXP and even /WHM for some instances in endgame (partially to boost MND for holy bolts, but also just for survivability). I've heard talk of /SAM, but have yet to see any good results to justify it post-update.

/WAR's benefits are obvious - Berserk past 30 and Warcry at 70, we lose very little in the way of accuracy with single-weilding a knife or axe. Attack Bonus trait at 60 as well with this sub.

/NIN gives you Dual Wield for addictional ranged accuracy bonuses, Utsusemi for fast mobs or when you pull big hate.

/BRD... one song, no instrument and the buff is about 1/3rd or less the power of BRD main's buffs since BRD main has the ability to stack two songs with the use of instruments exclusively. Mages like to rave about being able to use Ballad with /BRD post-50, but Evoker's Roll makes it seem like tablescraps due to its superior duration.

If you want ranged attacks and buffs, I'd go COR long term.
If you want high damaging ranged attacks, sub WAR or NIN for RNG.

The bonuses /BRD could give are but a trifle compared to what food would do. On the other hand, food looks like a trifle compared to what buffs BRD main does.

As for COR/RNG - almost all the fun toys of RNG, with higher damage than COR/NIN, more accuracy than COR/NIN and no loss in buff potency. Barrage, Sharpshot, Wide Scan, Camoflage and Scavange are nice things to have.

[Caspian]

I've heard talk of /SAM, but have yet to see any good results to justify it post-update.
Tangent, here we go: I've read some accounts of it, post 70 it can be pretty impressive. Seigan + Third Eye makes for a quasi Utsusemi, and the addition of Store TP and Meditate are supposed to make it pretty impressive in DoT. I don't have SAM lvl'd high enough at this point, but I'll prolly start leveling it pretty soon and give it a whirl.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Tangent, here we go: I've read some accounts of it, post 70 it can be pretty impressive. Seigan + Third Eye makes for a quasi Utsusemi, and the addition of Store TP and Meditate are supposed to make it pretty impressive in DoT. I don't have SAM lvl'd high enough at this point, but I'll prolly start leveling it pretty soon and give it a whirl.

Yeah, but those bonuses only apply with two-handed weapons in play. I've yet to hear if applies to bow, gun or Xbow in hand or if that literally means staves, great katana, lance, great axe, scythe and great sword. Of all those, we can equip staves, but have no native stave skill to draw from.

Hasso and Seigan would be nice if we knew they really worked, but it really only sounds applicable with a STR build and I'd think we'd still benefit more from /WAR or /NIN with such a build. /SAM updated seems directed more to SAM, DRG, DRK and WAR's benefit though I've still yet to see any WAR try it aside from people on Alla and KI who yelp once they get hit and go running back to /NIN.

Store TP and Meditate I won't deny the benefits of, even though we're pretty much TP whores left to our own devices.

[Lmnop]

Tangent continued, here we go: Is this wielding a Fire Staff or something? you need a 2-handed weapon for Seigan, can't think of anything else. Meanwhile, the Fire Staff would be quite kick ass for your damage already. o0

EDIT: Bbq posted just as I did. It'd have to be staff. Bows take 2 hands to fire, but the game runs based on slots, of course. Can't Weapon Bash with a bow. Hasso would be mostly worthless (no testing as to whether or not the +10 acc would also be ranged acc), but the full time seigan defense could be quite effective. For the rangers that melee often and run back for WS, this combo wouldn't have a significant impact on tp gain, since as Omgwtfbbqkitten pointed, no natural staff skill.

[Caspian]

I've seen ss's Spider-Dan has posted on KI, and it seems to be rather impressive. I'm not sure what main weapons he was using though, so he may have been using a stave.
I also don't know what it looks like at 75 meriting parties, but at my level if I eat meat (I've mentioned it on another thread) then I don't see any reduction in damage inside melee range. Now if I use sushi, yes, I see the usual 10% reduction, but not with coeurl subs.
I'll have to ask Dan what weapon he was mainhanding, and also may have to parse some pt's with one /sam and seigan, and another rng /war or /nin (perhaps both) with axes and or daggers. Interested to see how it all turns out, as well as how much store tp /sam gives, and how much gear it would take to take off a full shot required to reach 100% with Ebow, Sbow, and Obow. (Like how I keep making up work for someone with access to all this at 75 to do?)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I've seen ss's Spider-Dan has posted on KI, and it seems to be rather impressive. I'm not sure what main weapons he was using though, so he may have been using a stave.
I also don't know what it looks like at 75 meriting parties, but at my level if I eat meat (I've mentioned it on another thread) then I don't see any reduction in damage inside melee range. Now if I use sushi, yes, I see the usual 10% reduction, but not with coeurl subs.
I'll have to ask Dan what weapon he was mainhanding, and also may have to parse some pt's with one /sam and seigan, and another rng /war or /nin (perhaps both) with axes and or daggers. Interested to see how it all turns out, as well as how much store tp /sam gives, and how much gear it would take to take off a full shot required to reach 100% with Ebow, Sbow, and Obow. (Like how I keep making up work for someone with access to all this at 75 to do?)

Well, I've stopped going to KI and Alla after all the spyware, keyloggers and viruses I got from them on my PC recently (not saying they were directly to blame all of it, they just seem to have poor security... and poor moderation).

I guess the question I'm trying to drive at here is this: Do the staves really count with Seigan and Hasso or does our non-existant stave skill negate the ability to take advantage of those new abilites? If staves work, how does /SAM stack up against /WAR and /NIN in DoT? We already know that the 5% Haste Hasso would give wouldn't do anything for us as a RNG, so its the other aspects I'm curious about.

Telling me how something works on VT mobs in merit is like giving me a chocolate cake, I know chocolate cake is going to taste good no matter what. Its chocolate cake (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNStwTlQgJE&search=bill+cosby). I want to know how /SAM affects RNG during the main course (50-73), not dessert.

[Icemage]

I'm not really convinced that RNG/SAM with an elemental staff is going to be superior to /WAR's damage. From the information available in the SAM forums here, Hasso seems to give SAM level / 7 in STR, +10% Haste, +10 Accuracy. The Haste is pointless with ranged attacks. +10 Accuracy is nice if it adds to your ranged, but I can't begin to think how to test that aside from lots of boomerang tossing...

At level 51 (no point at 50, since you can't wield an elemental staff) we're looking at RNG/SAM getting:
+3 STR (Hasso)
Zanshin (lol)
Plus a tiny bit of Store TP.

Doesn't seem worth it at that point.

You'd pick up Meditate and Third Eye at 60/30, Seigan at 70/35. I could maybe see a case for this at 70 once you have Seigan as a defensive option too, but up to that point it seems rather sketchy.

By the by, while we're talking about using staves, wouldn't Thunder Staff's +15% Critical Hit be more effective than the +10 Ranged Attack from Fire Staff if you're a ranger?


Icemage

[Caspian]

By the by, while we're talking about using staves, wouldn't Thunder Staff's +15% Critical Hit be more effective than the +10 Ranged Attack from Fire Staff if you're a ranger?
Icemage
Think it all boils down to ranged criticals being fairly gimp compared to melee's crits. Really can't say how much of a shot to shot damage difference vulcan's makes, but when crits are super rare to begin with, even with a 15% increase in crits, I don't know that it would be better than the 5 or so damage you get every shot with vulcan's. (Hope this makes sense, its late and I'm tired.)

[VZX]

Not to mention our ranged attack is not as fast as ninja's katana / monk's fist / thief's dagger
crit+ is truly beneficial for jobs I mentioned above due to they hit so often in fight
more hits -> more chance for crit to occur -> higher damage

[Icemage]

Not to mention our ranged attack is not as fast as ninja's katana / monk's fist / thief's dagger
crit+ is truly beneficial for jobs I mentioned above due to they hit so often in fight
more hits -> more chance for crit to occur -> higher damage
The difference is in the damage gain per critical, not how often you land hits.


Icemage

[Version2.32]

to OP: RNG/BRD is useless at lv 20+ ( myself havent tried it lv10-15+) due to the fact that you can cast only one song, and each song will take most of ur time that you should probably be shooting the exp mob in & you are losing the beneffits from other
sub jobs like NIN for dual weild(more tp) and shadows(save pt's mp) and /WAR for berserk and what so

[Spider-Dan]

Better late than never:

/BRD is better than practically every other RNG subjob pre-24. Most offer nothing at all.

Hasso and Seigan "work" with a staff. I say "work" because most of Hasso's benefits (haste and melee ACC) don't apply to ranged. The STR applies, but RNG/SAM with Hasso active has only a bit more than RNG/WAR's base STR.

Seigan, however, is the real deal; my screenshot (http://tinyurl.com/hlbng/hydraseigan.jpg) against Hydra as RNG/SAM has already been mentioned. I've found Seigan to be quite useful in providing an extra level of survivability. In fact, I sub SAM to nearly all events when I come as RNG.

As far as Thunder Staff goes, it appears that +crit weapons apply only to that weapon. Even if that were not the case, ranged crits are so weak (compared to melee crits) that I'm still not sure Thunder Staff would be worth it.

[Icemage]

It's true that most subjobs don't do much for RNG pre-24, but I still think RNG/PUP is better than RNG/BRD (then again, /PUP is just a ridiculously good sub overall in the early levels - which is weird considering how weak Puppetmasters are later in the game).

That's disappointing about Thunder Staff. The Seigan effect s really cool, though.


Icemage

[Spider-Dan]

/PUP seems great for really early on (pre-partying), but by the time you hit LV10, it doesn't seem like there's much point.

[Icemage]

/PUP seems great for really early on (pre-partying), but by the time you hit LV10, it doesn't seem like there's much point.
Set it to mage frame and have it do some enfeebling magic (Dia, Poison... maybe Bio, don't know if it has access to Bio by that level instead). It'll also cast cures on you if you're < 50%. Plus it'll land some hits every once in a blue moon. More effective than having Paeon from /BRD IMO.


Icemage

[IfritnoItazura]

It's true that most subjobs don't do much for RNG pre-24, but I still think RNG/PUP is better than RNG/BRD (then again, /PUP is just a ridiculously good sub overall in the early levels - which is weird considering how weak Puppetmasters are later in the game).

I thought both PUP and /PUP need to use Animator to get the Automaton to do anything? If that's the case, there goes the range weapon slot for RNG/PUP...

RNG/BRD seems useful Lv.10-19, but at Lv.20-23, other support jobs open seem to do more:

RNG/DRG or RNG/DRK - For Attack Bonus. (Can also jump when the mob runs up to eat your face, to make it madder. >_> )

RNG/WAR or RNG/PLD - For Defense Bonus (better than nothing, but I'd probably take /BRD over /WAR and /PLD).

RNG/SAM - For Store TP (10% more TP per hit).

RNG/WHM - For Cure, and because it's the default support job for a lot of JP players. With some juices, it may actually help the party.

Anyway, if RNG/BRD really sounds like your cup of tea, play COR instead, like someone else suggested earlier. Otherwise, it's just a Lv.10-19 support job option.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Better late than never:

/BRD is better than practically every other RNG subjob pre-24. Most offer nothing at all.

OK then, let's just throw in /SMN as a great RNG sub too. :rolleyes:

I honestly think its more worthwhile to use the subjobs you will be using in your long term career. RNG will not be singing at sky events or in manaburn. And keep in mind when people ask "is [insert oddball subjob here] good for [Insert main job here]?" sometimes what they really mean is "will this get me out of levelling a more expensive or more difficult subjob? Cuz I don't wanna do those, I just wanna level my main job."

While anything goes 1-30 its seems (god knows people sub /THF when it doesn't DO anything til level 30) its better not to procrastinate on things like /WAR and /NIN, you're going to go back and level them both anyway so there's nothing to be gained by limping your main ahead with another subjob. But if you want to create more work for yourself, go right ahead.

Hasso and Seigan "work" with a staff. I say "work" because most of Hasso's benefits (haste and melee ACC) don't apply to ranged. The STR applies, but RNG/SAM with Hasso active has only a bit more than RNG/WAR's base STR.

Seigan, however, is the real deal; my screenshot (http://tinyurl.com/hlbng/hydraseigan.jpg) against Hydra as RNG/SAM has already been mentioned. I've found Seigan to be quite useful in providing an extra level of survivability. In fact, I sub SAM to nearly all events when I come as RNG.


This is good to know, I did have one of my RNG friends - who is also 75 SAM - check it out for me. The STR from Hasso is there with with staff even if we didn't get other benefits. His RNG was 67 though, so its good to see Seigan in action here and it looks nice.

Not to mention I had a kickass merit PT with a SAM/RNG recently, it's gotten me interested in levelling RNG to see how the reverse pans out. Seems like RNG would be the middle road between RNG/WAR and RNG/NIN.

RNG/WAR - Highest damage per shot and WS.
RNG/SAM - More efficient and frequent use of TP, Seigan/Hasso adding evasion/STR.
RNG/NIN - Highest overall accuracy via DW, Utsusemi to absorb single target attack/spells

[Spider-Dan]

OK then, let's just throw in /SMN as a great RNG sub too. :rolleyes:
I honestly think its more worthwhile to use the subjobs you will be using in your long term career.
And why is that? It doesn't make any sense to use a SJ before it's actually useful just for continuity's sake. That would be neglecting the entire point of being able to change subjobs.

RNG will not be singing at sky events or in manaburn.
How is this relevant to the dunes? Most jobs have drastically different roles at endgame, anyway.

And keep in mind when people ask "is [insert oddball subjob here] good for [Insert main job here]?" sometimes what they really mean is "will this get me out of levelling a more expensive or more difficult subjob? Cuz I don't wanna do those, I just wanna level my main job."
I consider that to be an irrelevant concern. If someone is going to refuse to level an appropriate subjob, then that's their choice. But if there is a level range where a SJ that they already have available happens to be the best option, why shouldn't they use it? Better to get some use out of it while you can.

While anything goes 1-30 its seems (god knows people sub /THF when it doesn't DO anything til level 30) its better not to procrastinate on things like /WAR and /NIN, you're going to go back and level them both anyway so there's nothing to be gained by limping your main ahead with another subjob.
Actually, there is something to be gained: having the best tools for the task at hand. You almost seem to approach the decision like it's impossible to change subjobs, so therefore one had better pick the "right" one and stick with it from 1-75.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Subjobs are situational.

[Spider-Dan]

Set it to mage frame and have it do some enfeebling magic (Dia, Poison... maybe Bio, don't know if it has access to Bio by that level instead). It'll also cast cures on you if you're < 50%. Plus it'll land some hits every once in a blue moon. More effective than having Paeon from /BRD IMO.
It was my understanding that you cannot use the mage frame unless you are 20main/10PUP, which seems too late to be useful.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

SO not playing another round of Dissect and Distort the Quotes with Spider-Dan.

Here's the short version of my previous post:

There is very little benefit to the player to level the main job ahead with a non-standard sub. /BRD might have some cute tricks, but the player is only wasting their own time by delaying the inevitable levelling of another subjob for the main.

Its procrastinating, beating around the bush, a colossal waste of time. If you have the time to waste, by all means, go for it. I'm just saying it's likely not the best way to go about it and if you really want to be a ranged attacker with buffs, you're really looking for COR, not RNG/BRD.

We all know subjobs are situational, but there's a difference between situational and a complete waste of time. Since I'm levelling SAM right now, perhaps I should level SMN alongside it since Carbuncle would make a reliable skillchain partner pre-30, right? OR I could prep THF instead and have it ready to go with WAR, NIN and RNG later on.

[Caspian]

Regardless of whatever you may think the original poster was trying to get out of, this thread has since evolved into a discussion about the usefulness of less than normal subjobs for a few short levels, early in a RNG's career. Noone is saying that you /BRD should be your ticket to 75, nor is anyone saying that its unnecessary to level WAR and NIN as an appropriate sub. What is being said is that in a few short levels, very early in a RNG's career, that /BRD is a highly useful subjob. It wears out its usefulness very early on, but that does not discount what it can bring as a subjob pre-20.
Am I going to talk down to someone b/c they're not using /BRD pre-20? Ofcourse not, I didn't even have the job unlocked when I was leveling RNG in the dunes. Will I say something later than that if they are subbing BRD, especially the higher in levels you go? Most definately.
I don't understand why you're discounting its usefulness. Its been made clear that it shouldn't be used post-20, if someone does walk away with the understanding that its an appropriate subjob all the way to 75, then well, they fail at reading comprehension, and should make certain that they have leveled both NIN and WAR for the greater majority of their leveling with RNG.

[Raydeus]

Its procrastinating, beating around the bush, a colossal waste of time. If you have the time to waste, by all means, go for it. I'm just saying it's likely not the best way to go about it and if you really want to be a ranged attacker with buffs, you're really looking for COR, not RNG/BRD.

I have most jobs leveled to at least 10 (except for DRG which is still lvl1), it didn't take more than a few hours to get them there. And from what I've seen most people has plenty of jobs leveled to at least 10 to try them out and stuff (including BRD), more than enough for RNG/BRD's life span.

So, while I agree that leveling BRD for the sole purpose of getting RNG to 20 could be a waste of time (if you have little time to play and no interest whatsoever on ever leveling or trying out BRD), that has nothing to do with BRD's usefulness as a sub for RNG before lvl24.

[Spider-Dan]

Here's the short version of my previous post:
There is very little benefit to the player to level the main job ahead with a non-standard sub. /BRD might have some cute tricks, but the player is only wasting their own time by delaying the inevitable levelling of another subjob for the main.
Again, you're assuming that they don't already have both subjobs leveled.

Not only do many people have all the relevant SJs available, but a sizable portion (those who care about doing their job right) would have no problem leveling a SJ (to the ghastly heights of 10) specifically for low-level usage.

Its procrastinating, beating around the bush, a colossal waste of time. If you have the time to waste, by all means, go for it.
Once more, it seems the common thread in your posts is someone using /BRD to avoid having to level a SJ for later levels. Put simply, you aren't talking about the same thing as the rest of us.

I'm just saying it's likely not the best way to go about it and if you really want to be a ranged attacker with buffs, you're really looking for COR, not RNG/BRD.
It's this type of thinking that causes many people to bring useless SJs to the dunes... where you have every melee subbing WAR because "if I wanted to help cure, I'd be a mage." Then you sit around and wait for a mage to pop for 2 hours.

Rather than trying to make sure every job fits in its prescribed niche at all times, one should be thinking, "Which subjob can most effectively help me gain xp in the upcoming area?"

We all know subjobs are situational, but there's a difference between situational and a complete waste of time. Since I'm levelling SAM right now, perhaps I should level SMN alongside it since Carbuncle would make a reliable skillchain partner pre-30, right?
No, you should not. /SMN is useless for melees, for all sorts of reasons. But you already knew that.

The more accurate analogy would be using /MNK for a pre-30 THF; a SJ that is useless for the rest of your THF career, yet head-and-shoulders above the rest at low levels. By your logic, THFs shouldn't bother putting in the effort with /MNK.

OR I could prep THF instead and have it ready to go with WAR, NIN and RNG later on.
What does "prepping" THF have to do with which SJ you use as a pre-20 SAM? If you are talking about using THF as a pre-30 SJ, you're actively encouraging people to using gimped SJs (which pre-30 /THF is, without question) just so they can avoid a trip to the MH.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Kitten, I understand where you're coming from. Don't worry about needing to respond back to "you know who," because most people on these forums know good and well how much of a troll the person is. lol

I'll be honest. If I'm in Valkurm, I'm -not- subbing WHM under RNG to be able to spend 3 cures on someone in party just to "make sure I have micromanaged and optimized my skills and effects in battle." I'm not bending a knee to lose 50TP either. Sure, I would sub BRD, I'm cool with that. I've done that before on a melee job. The effects were less than desirable I felt but, eh, numbers are numbers. I mean, for the most part, unless your a mage, who cares what you sub pre-19. Now, 20+, accuracy bonus and such are useful tools.

There's a difference between micromanagement, casual, fun playing, and laziness. The middle road is ususally best. (And if anyone thinks micromanaging stats to the point of obtaining a migrane is fun and enjoyable, needs their head examined then, no pun intended.)

[Icemage]

There are a lot of people out there that are more than happy to dump a few levels into jobs that they're otherwise not interested in specifically to use as a low level subjob.

I should know, I'm one of them. I hate melee jobs with a passion, but I'm currently working on Monk, Warrior, Thief, and Ninja subjobs because I know I'll want them when I start working on Blue Mage (Monk as a sub for WAR and THF, which is why it's stopped at 18).


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

There are a lot of people out there that are more than happy to dump a few levels into jobs that they're otherwise not interested in specifically to use as a low level subjob.

I should know, I'm one of them. I hate melee jobs with a passion, but I'm currently working on Monk, Warrior, Thief, and Ninja subjobs because I know I'll want them when I start working on Blue Mage (Monk as a sub for WAR and THF, which is why it's stopped at 18).


Icemage

I think its one thing to level a sub you don't like and another to sub something that has no long-term benefit for the main job. Yes, I know Dan would sing the praises of a BRD sub at every level of the game depending on the job, but we're talking rather small returns in contrast to BRD main can do at full power.

For Corsair, i'd never touch /BRD. If I want to be a refresh monkey, there are two other jobs more effective and consistant about it and I could go back to them if I really wanted to (I don't). Additionally, some jobs to have to consider subjobs for defensive abilites. Building a job for pure support on buff... well, enjoy losing your EXP. Building a job for pure melee output that makes more sense. But if you want to go and be BRD/COR, COR/BRD or BLM/BRD... you just have "fun" with that. For defensive ability, /WHM and /NIN are hard to dispute.

I'll level a WHM sub to benefit both my RNG and COR for endgame situations and I'm not looking forward to it. Its not fun for me, its a tedious chore, but I'm well aware of the benefits. I'm capable of playing full support if I want to, but if you're asking me to sub /WHM for EXP or merit you can kindly kiss my ass. Subjobs may be situational, but when I pay out the nose to level, I'll sub what I want to. That's my "situation." I'm not gonna touch /WHM till I have marksmanship and MP merits at a level that is satisfactory for me.


What does "prepping" THF have to do with which SJ you use as a pre-20 SAM? If you are talking about using THF as a pre-30 SJ, you're actively encouraging people to using gimped SJs (which pre-30 /THF is, without question) just so they can avoid a trip to the MH.

This is why you need to stop playing Dissect and Distort the Quotes. When you cite multiple parts of a post and attack each part separately, you start to lose the meaning of the whole original post. You eventually stir up arguments from things that aren't said at all and end up putting your foot in your mouth.

I never said anything about subbing /THF before it was useful, merely that its good to get /THF done as a sub before taking SAM all the way. Getting /THF done early is a more effective use of my time than experimenting with a subjob I won't use long-term.

That's a BIG difference from what you assumed I meant.

[Icemage]

I think its one thing to level a sub you don't like and another to sub something that has no long-term benefit for the main job. Yes, I know Dan would sing the praises of a BRD sub at every level of the game depending on the job, but we're talking rather small returns in contrast to BRD main can do at full power.
As I mentioned above, I am levelling a handful of jobs that won't do anything for me end-game. /MNK sub doesn't do squat for THF beyond level 35, and is only so-so for WAR beyond 24.

I'm doing exactly what you're talking about - levelling jobs that offer me nothing in long term, but give me an edge short-term.

Have you ever actually used a Bard sub at low levels? It's not nearly as horrible as you think. Sure, Paeon is weak, but a weak buff is still better than no buff. Considering that most jobs don't even get a job trait or ability when subbed until at least level 20/10, that's a whole lot of levels where /BRD gets you something tangible that other subjobs don't.


For Corsair, i'd never touch /BRD. If I want to be a refresh monkey, there are two other jobs more effective and consistant about it and I could go back to them if I really wanted to (I don't). Additionally, some jobs to have to consider subjobs for defensive abilites. Building a job for pure support on buff... well, enjoy losing your EXP. Building a job for pure melee output that makes more sense. But if you want to go and be BRD/COR, COR/BRD or BLM/BRD... you just have "fun" with that. For defensive ability, /WHM and /NIN are hard to dispute.
I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting COR/BRD at higher levels. We're talking about situational use of subjobs in levels where other subjobs simply don't offer much of anything useful (particularly in the pre-20 level range).

I'll level a WHM sub to benefit both my RNG and COR for endgame situations and I'm not looking forward to it. Its not fun for me, its a tedious chore, but I'm well aware of the benefits. I'm capable of playing full support if I want to, but if you're asking me to sub /WHM for EXP or merit you can kindly kiss my ass. Subjobs may be situational, but when I pay out the nose to level, I'll sub what I want to. That's my "situation." I'm not gonna touch /WHM till I have marksmanship and MP merits at a level that is satisfactory for me.
Again, we're talking about a level range that is pretty low. You make it sound like gettin Bard to level ~15 is some ridiculously onerous chore. For what it's worth, I've never seen any ranger at level 75 sub WHM except to solo. Just because you, personally, would not want to do this does not mean it doesn't offer something tangible should a player wish to do so. We're not talking about personal preference here; we're discussing potential effectiveness.


[...]I never said anything about subbing /THF before it was useful, merely that its good to get /THF done as a sub before taking SAM all the way. Getting /THF done early is a more effective use of my time than experimenting with a subjob I won't use long-term.

That's a BIG difference from what you assumed I meant.
I don't think there was any assumption made except from what you posted:

We all know subjobs are situational, but there's a difference between situational and a complete waste of time. Since I'm levelling SAM right now, perhaps I should level SMN alongside it since Carbuncle would make a reliable skillchain partner pre-30, right? OR I could prep THF instead and have it ready to go with WAR, NIN and RNG later on.

By this statement you imply that someone wishing to be BLU/THF should obviously ignore other useful subs like /WAR and /NIN because they obviously don't work very well later on and are such a complete waste of time, particularly when /THF is a completely horrid subjob pre-30. Whether this was your intent or not, that is what you implied, and that's what I believe Spider-Dan was responding to.

I find this thread of logic paradoxical in the extreme; weren't you the one taking me to task for supposedly being overly focused on end-game not too long ago?


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Please stop shoveling words into people's mouths. Let's take a step back here.

Have you ever actually used a Bard sub at low levels? It's not nearly as horrible as you think. Sure, Paeon is weak, but a weak buff is still better than no buff. Considering that most jobs don't even get a job trait or ability when subbed until at least level 20/10, that's a whole lot of levels where /BRD gets you something tangible that other subjobs don't

Its nice for 1-10, but if you are levelling melee, particularly RNG, WAR, BLU, DRK, BST or SAM, you're hopefully using the same DEF armor. The /WAR sub for these jobs is going to be useful for Provoke alone and you'll be able to take the hits better at that level than you would be able to later on.

And if the player wants to experiment with /BRD, that's fine, but keep in mind not everyone in your PT is going to be happy with that, they don't want their time wasted. For the early levels a NIN main is going to want people to spot him as a sub-tank and virtually every melee has the DEF in armor to do just that at these low levels, even RDM and BLU. So /WAR is extremely viable from 10 onward.

/MNK will get you Boost at level 10, adding roughly the same attack bonus (and possibly more between pulls) than the first Minuet. /BLU also would enable you do have some early offensive and defensive spells at your disposal. At 20 /DRG for a little TP boost once a minute.

Keep in mind /BRD is one song, less than half the power of what it would be as BRD main and that you cannot use instruments. As a result, all buff bonuses BRD would enjoy are solely determined by singing skill, which is halved now.

Paeon is worthless in combat, but its decent for downtime, but that's where it starts and ends for Paeon. Minuet is just as marginal, possibly less useful, than Boost until you get past 20-ish. Of all the buffs, I'd have to say Madrigal would be the most useful of them all.

But what was my initial point before we arrived at this tangent debate? Oh right, it was that its a total waste of time to use something like /BRD if you don't have the the other subs ready for when they are "more useful."

Let's say you do have a NIN sub ready. It's not useful til RNG is 24. At that point you'll get the majority of a /NIN sub's benefit. But if you're not going to at least level WAR to 37 as a subjob, you're doing yourself a disservice by playing around with a BRD sub just to get to 24 and switch over to NIN. /WAR is damn good from 30 onward and its nice to have it at your disposal from that point on.

There are a lot of people - particularly within the Alla community - that will say /WAR is only viable after 70. Um... no. They're confusing /WAR with when STR/Attack build is most viable, which, /WAR is great for RNG at 30 onward when you get Berzerk. All that /WAR needs keep in mind is to not spam weaponskills and shots and to walk the hate like just like a good BLM would.

Anyway, after the recent update, /SAM has once again become a viable sub. If you're after Hasso and the TP traits/abilities, you're good to go at level 60 so long as you use Fire Staff. Seigan it at 70, offering an alternative to Utsusemi. You may not see the returns on levelling SAM for a long time in your RNG career, but its another option to have and worth working toward early, just like NIN or WAR.

I'm talking about long-term benefits. Eat your vegetables first and then you can enjoy dessert. But what you're suggesting is to eat candy before the meal, which makes getting to dessert more difficult than it has to be. Playing around with /BRD when you don't have /WAR, /NIN or /SAM ready for later only postpones the inevitable levelling of at least two of those subjobs. Get 'em done and over with.

So, are we now done with this pointless Devil's Advocate nonsense? Really.

[Cometgreen]

People can play however they want, and failing to have a sub leveled that they're not using right now does not affect their game play. If someone wants to go the very slow route and go RNG/BRD to 20, stop to get WAR and NIN to 15, take RNG to 30, stop again, etc, it's their choice, and it doesn't make them lesser players. And it certainly doesn't affect the viability of BRD as a sub pre-20, which is now the issue at hand.

[Spider-Dan]

Yes, I know Dan would sing the praises of a BRD sub at every level of the game depending on the job, but we're talking rather small returns in contrast to BRD main can do at full power.
Why do you keep comparing /BRD to a BRD main? It's irrelevant, since we're not talking about replacing a BRD main with a BRD SJ.

[Here was a large section that I had typed out replying to the majority of OMG's post, which was an unabashed anti-COR/BRD rant. However, this is mightily irrelevant to this forum, and more importantly, has already been covered (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/corsair/62065-bye-bye-cor-3.html?highlight=#post644151) in the COR forum. So let's stay on topic, k?]

I never said anything about subbing /THF before it was useful, merely that its good to get /THF done as a sub before taking SAM all the way. Getting /THF done early is a more effective use of my time than experimenting with a subjob I won't use long-term.

That's a BIG difference from what you assumed I meant.
I'm talking about long-term benefits. Eat your vegetables first and then you can enjoy dessert. But what you're suggesting is to eat candy before the meal, which makes getting to dessert more difficult than it has to be. Playing around with /BRD when you don't have /WAR, /NIN or /SAM ready for later only postpones the inevitable levelling of at least two of those subjobs. Get 'em done and over with.
It would help if you would say what you mean, instead of hoping everyone else can read your mind. In this case, the disconnect is because you apparently take it for granted that leveling subjobs is an either/or decision, where someone can choose to level a useful low-level subjob, or a useful high-level subjob, but not both.

This is an assumption that I do not agree with. But more to the point, it's completely irrelevant to this thread. The OP was not asking which SJs he should level, but which SJs he should use.

If you want to make an argument that it's not worth the time to level the most effective subjob for a specific situation, I suggest you make a thread about it. It certainly has nothing to do with this thread.

[Lmnop]

5 days later (actually 2 weeks later, hello holidays) I thought I'd like to share some input that has very little to do with Rng/brd:

Dan did actually misunderstand a few of Omg's points, though they weren't exactly clear. No reason to get upset over it. Just clarify. Oh, but wait, every time he says something you shove words in his mouth.

If I have this straight: Omg was saying (very ambiguously) that these threads are usually geared towards people avoiding leveling the jobs they need leveled. Yeah, you're right, but if you stop thinking on that and just think about "in a perfect world with every sub in the game leveled," you see that Dan wants to look at practicals of what job is best when. How about that, a misunderstanding?

Continuing...

Yes, I know Dan would sing the praises of a BRD sub at every level of the game depending on the job, but we're talking rather small returns in contrast to BRD main can do at full power.

No, he wouldn't. In fact he'd specifically say (and did) that BRD sub is situational, best only at certain levels. That's what's known as the opposite of what you said.

For Corsair, i'd never touch /BRD...

yeah, good thing no one brought up COR/brd. Because S-E specifically made Cor not to function well in any combination with Brd (with the exception of the possibility of getting a 2 + 1 combo but I never finished the other thread to see if it's true or not).

So, are we now done with this pointless Devil's Advocate nonsense? Really.

Sorry. If it helps, I really like your Sig.

I also had a lot more quotes and random bickering originally. But I don't think Kitten did anything really wrong to justify my being an asshole.

----------------------------

I realize this post is mostly irrelevant, but I really want to point out one thing:

Kitten, I understand where you're coming from. Don't worry about needing to respond back to "you know who," because most people on these forums know good and well how much of a troll the person is. lol

Do I still get warning points or punished otherwise for using the F word on these forums still? Because surely this warrants some.

Spider-Dan is one of the most unbiased posters I've ever read. He doesn't even bother to respond to flames directed at him. To me, that seems like the least Troll-ish behavior you can have. If being logical is trolling, I need more troll friends.

But no matter where he goes, his blunt logic is met with defensive posters who lash out to protect their own opinions. Wtg humanity. Way to hang Astronomers for telling the King that the Sun doesn't revolve around the Earth. Wtg.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Again, if you want to be a ranged attacker that buffs as a job you want to take to the top, then Ranger is not for you. You're looking for Corsair.

Again, if you want to be experimental, be experiemental in a static party. Don't be experimental in a pick-up party unless they consent to it. It wastes your time and everyone else's when you force a worthless subjob on the PT. Really why do /BRD if other subs haven't been prepped? Its benefit is for a span of levels you can get through in a few days,.

Its cute to have paeon and madrigal to 30, but its cheating yourself if you have to go back and level /WAR and /NIN anyway. Progressing RNG is just pushed even further off as a result of using a short-term subjob.

Now, IF you have all the other EXP subs done and want to try /BRD, I don't see the harm if your PT is willing to go with it. You're not cheating yourself or wasting any time in doing so because other things are prepared. But in general, questions from people like the OP aren't polling to see if its really effective, but to see if they can use it to get around other subjobs.

Now, enlighten me as to the flaws behind any of this reasoning and why we should continue to senselessly play Devil's Advocate. /BRD is not useful to RNG long-term so why even waste time on it when 1-20 can be over and done within a couple days for any job? Just to say its viable? Really?

[cakemeat]

I really dont know why ppl bitch so much about subjobs.

If you think about the mathmatics of it. the actual level barely offers you much. its the skills/abilities that really do anything.

SO if you want to give everyone in your party an extra 10 or whataver attack points (minuet) instead of having yourself an extra stat or two.. DO IT

fuck subjobs is all i gotta say. there is a reason that a level 25 cannot take down a level 50 job. its math.

[Lmnop]

Just to say its viable?

yes

Would there be any cool and actual good benefits from this combo? Or would it just be all bad? Would appreciate some descriptive reasons please, thanks.

And the answer is during a certain level range, for reasons being that it simply offers options not attainable by other subs.

Like Dan mentioned, thf/mnk pre-30 is insane. But after 30 it's useless.

Sam/drg is insane 20-30 (I'd know: I did it) but those are really the only levels they're ideal (well, and 70+ but I only took sam to 37 for SJ, yet leveled DRG just for subbing to my sub).

seems to me like if you say...

Again, if you want to be experimental, be experiemental in static party. Don't be experimental in a pick-up party, period. It wastes your time and everyone else's when you do this.

...that you're just trying to defend your opinion, even though I know you're smart enough not to suggest that we all act like sheep, because that's what that quote looks like.

So instead of saying "I can't believe you're trying to kill everyone else' creativity," I'll just say:

"Ok Kitten. If people have a choice between subbing a job because it's already leveled and leveling a new job, I'm going to call them gimp for not leveling the other. You can choose to hate rng/brds at level 15 the same way I hate level 70 war/nins with Greataxe 0."

[Legal Fish]

What you sub early on has no effect on what you sub later. Saying it's a bad idea to sub BRD at early levels is bad because at level 75 you don't is a horrible argument.

That said, PUP is one of the worst subs for a RNG because it hogs up the Ranged/Ammo slot.

[Spider-Dan]

Again, if you want to be a ranged attacker that buffs as a job you want to take to the top, then Ranger is not for you. You're looking for Corsair.
Omg logic, circa-2003: "If you're looking for a job to tank and hold aggro during a fight, then Ninja is not the job for you. You're looking for Paladin. You need to stop being a half-assed Thief and half-assed Paladin, and just pick one job or the other."

Again, if you want to be experimental, be experiemental in a static party. Don't be experimental in a pick-up party unless they consent to it. It wastes your time and everyone else's when you force a worthless subjob on the PT.
Actually, subbing WAR/THF/NIN pre-20 would be "forcing a worthless subjob on the party." That's the whole point; /BRD is actually better (read: more effective) than those other cookie-cutter SJs at low-levels.

Really why do /BRD if other subs haven't been prepped? Its benefit is for a span of levels you can get through in a few days,.

Its cute to have paeon and madrigal to 30, but its cheating yourself if you have to go back and level /WAR and /NIN anyway. Progressing RNG is just pushed even further off as a result of using a short-term subjob.
Why do you continue to return to this false dilemma? It's not an either/or choice of "use /BRD in the dunes" vs. "use /NIN in the thickets". The great thing about SJs is that you can change them at any time!

Now, IF you have all the other EXP subs done and want to try /BRD, I don't see the harm if your PT is willing to go with it.
You... don't see the harm?! Talk about not getting it.

What everyone else is trying to explain to you is that /BRD is ACTUALLY GOOD. You're acting as if it's some sort of charity work for your party members to allow you to use the MOST EFFECTIVE subjob.

But in general, questions from people like the OP aren't polling to see if its really effective, but to see if they can use it to get around other subjobs.
So what? If he has /BRD ready to go, why shouldn't he use it while it works? What's the point in telling him to level /WAR and /NIN Right Now when he already has a better subjob ready to go? Whether he levels them today or a week from now, he still shouldn't be using them for the next ~15 levels anyway.

Now, enlighten me as to the flaws behind any of this reasoning and why we should continue to senselessly play Devil's Advocate. /BRD is not useful to RNG long-term so why even waste time on it when 1-20 can be over and done within a couple days for any job? Just to say its viable? Really?
The problem is that you think we're just playing Devil's Advocate, telling him to use a useless subjob just because. In fact, even if you have all SJs leveled and available, /BRD is still arguably the best choice for RNG pre-20.

Your argument of "well it'll be done in a couple of days so who cares?" pretty much invalidates anything else you can say on the subject. If it's so short that it doesn't matter anyway, why do you care what he's subbing? He can go /MNK1 and be done with it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Omg logic, circa-2003: "If you're looking for a job to tank and hold aggro during a fight, then Ninja is not the job for you. You're looking for Paladin. You need to stop being a half-assed Thief and half-assed Paladin, and just pick one job or the other."

Seriously, I LOLed and promptly stopped reading right there.

You win. (http://www.nirvani.net.nyud.net:8090/misc/arguing_on_the_internet.jpg)

[Spider-Dan]

So basically, you're saying that you lost the Special Olympics. Sweet.

Sorry, but you don't get to play the "arguing on the internet is retarded" card on your third page of arguing. It really just makes you look like a sore loser.