Am I doing something wrong as a ninja?

[Necropolis]

Hello, this is my first post on a FFXI forum so don't flame me too bad please.

My main is a 65whm, and decided to level nin so that i can solo bones in Xacabard while trying to obtain club skill and get the all powerful Hexa-strike, and have some general fun with a meleeing whm.

That being said I have some questions about nin in general and if I am approaching this correctly, as I havn't really leveled any other melee jobs seriously.

First I will list my gear I have as a lvl 32 Ninja currently:

Weapons: Busuto +1,Suzume,Flame Sword and a couple others, havn't noticed much difference between them

Head: Beetle Mask +1
Legs: Kingdom Trousers
Body: Federation Gi
Feet: Winged Boots
Hands: Fed Tekko
Back: Nomad's Mantle
Ears: Dodge Earring X2
Rings: Bomb Ring, Reflex Ring
Waist: Warrior's Belt +1
Neck: Spike Necklace
Food: Sole Sushi
Not Sure of Equips for the next stage, seeing as its time to go to Garlige Citadel now.

But my main problems are as follow:

How much should I be evading?
I have capped evasion, lots of evasion/agility gear, and i don't see it produce many results. I keep shadows up when ever i can, and usually start each battle casting over the last shadow is the puller will wait long enough for timer to cool down that is.

How much should I be Parrying?
unfortunatly this is not capped, I hit 54 last night, which seems low compared to everything else. but it seems to produce more than the evasion *at times*. though my understanding from other threads is that evasion > parry.

How does a nin keep hate?
I've tried everything, but an overzealous MNK, War, or even a WHM can steal it from me constantly! I start the fights with a provoke, swing, Paralyze, shadows, swing, blind, voke, poison, shadows (if timer allows), the from there i swing. I use the Ichi elementals a lot, which now i have read arn't much worth it, though i have had capped Ninjitsu for the past 10 lvls :) .

The hate is the main issue i have. I am a taru as well so my hits are a little gimp, but i try to make up for it in food or gear. Its just a matter of knowing what to buy. Working on getting an Emp. Hairpin for the evasion, so perhaps that will help with the getting hit part. Do all nin have hate control problems? it seems from other threads they do, I just don't know if mine are because of something I am doing wrong, or party members like to get the hate from me for bragging rights.
(as a side note, when the mnk kept voking to get the hate from me in the Jungles, i told him I am a whm main and have no problem not getting hit so if he would like to tank go ahead:evil: )

So in conclusion, I am a lvl 32 taru Nin that wants to hold hate, lvl parry, and evade a bit more. Any help would be appreciated.

Also I love this job, and am considering taking it to 75 after whm, thats if i can bear getting war to 37, getting it to 18 was a big enough pain, but after i use the Utsusemi:ni scroll in my inventory, maybe that will be enough to make me lvl war.

Well I would love to chat longer, but thread is getting long, and I don't want to irritate ppl with my first post on a forum, So thank you for any help in advance.

Necropolis

[Jei]

The +10 evasion from Emp hairpin is very handy. if you can afford it.

For a Taru. I think you benefit more from STR ring. More damage = more hate.

At your level, I think Rice Dumbling (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Rice_Dumpling) is the best food choice. You don't have enough base accuracy to boost with sushi yet.
Also, Dorado sushi (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Dorado_Sushi) adds +3 enmity so it's more useful than sole imo if you really have to build up more hate.

And definitely use This (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Breath_Mantle). Way better than warrior's belt.

[raidenn]

Ive seen a lot of Taru Ninjas using Dorado Sushi...
Of course having a good thf that sticks hate to you also helps, I did remember having trouble setting up SATA during the early 30s.

[Necropolis]

Thanks Jei,

I've never been a fan of enchantment items, but maybe because on my mage jobs I havn't found one worth getting, so I'll be looking for that mantle to night to check it out.

I like the food options too, I was going with the sole mainly for the +5 str, but I think I will pick up a stack of your suggestions and see how it works out.

[Necropolis]

Ive seen a lot of Taru Ninjas using Dorado Sushi...
Of course having a good thf that sticks hate to you also helps, I did remember having trouble setting up SATA during the early 30s.

I havn't had a chance to try out SATA yet, my ninja went from 12-32 in the past two days, and my last party started at level 27 with no thf, so when we all hit 30, no one was there to SATA. (I think that SATA is 30 right? thf is lvl 1 atm).

Of course I didn't think of SATA before since I kinda rushed getting NIN leveled in one weekend, but I think that will help a lot once I can get a thf in my pt.

[Jei]

Thf is awesome 30+. I like to set up 2 Nin or Nin+War combo with a thf for 30-37 ^^

I used This (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Talisman_Cape) a lot for my Whm at lower levels.

[Necropolis]

about the low level whm thing....

when i started playing i was a rdm to 18 for the sub job, then i changed to whm with the solo reason of teleports and ended up loving it, however i was new and didn't know what the AH was or what gear was, or anything at all....

needless to say i went to parties all the way up to 32 in nothing but my starter taru gear when someone kicked me and said get better gear, then i got introduced to the art of farming for gil and getting spells and over all having to know what the heck you are doing.

don't laugh at me too hard, we were all newbs and one point and went to a party with no pants...right? <.<

[Jei]

hehe I remember what I was like ^^ My Whm used only starting gear all the way to 20 too. Then I found the doublet model and love it. So I got them for myself. I hate how robe looks, still hate it now actually.

My Whm 1-32, I sold crystals to NPC to support all my spells ._. such a noob.

/scream omgwtf Qufim under beastmen control! how am I gonna buy my next spell??

[Celeal]

IMHO, evasion is good if and only if the mob is attacking you (nin tank). If the mob is chasing other members, evasion does not help for getting hate back to you.

Both bat and beetle in Garlige Citadel have AoE evasion down move. The bat has strong resist on dark element, so you may have trouble landing Blind. The Beetle has fair resist on earth element, so may have have trouble landing Slow.

Do not bet everything on evasion or parry alone. Keeping shadow up is an afford on both debuff (Blind + Slow + Paralyze) and evasion/parry. Slow on slow hitting mob like beetles or carbs, will help you the most for successful recast of Utsusemi: Ichi.

The paralyze effect of Blade: Retsu is potent at your level too. The first paralyze effect usually kicks in right after the WS is landed. It is a handy tool for getting Utsusemi: Ichi back on when all your shadows are stripped. Instead spend time on Ichi version of elemental debuff, I suggest spend time for swing katana to gain TP for Blade: Retsu.

As for hate issue, don't panic when you lost hate, just focus on how you can get the hate back. From my experience, there are some tips:
1. If the NIN tank takes a lot of damage and the healer dump big cure on NIN, the hate will shift to the healer. To avoid this situation, try to avoid damage taken, with combination of Blind, Slow, Paralyze, evasion, parry, and good timing of getting Utsusemi: Ichi back on.
2. If the NIN lose hate to melee DD (like MNK), the trick is timing of provoke. For example, a WAR/THF use SA + Stumwind and get lots of hate. If the NIN provoke right after the WAR uses SA + Stumwind, most likely the hate is still locked on the WAR. Wait for the WAR takes a few hits from the mob to lose hate, wait a couple seconds for the spike hate from SA + Stumwind decays, then NIN provoke and get the hate back.

Sometimes you may need to lost hate for recasting Utsusemi: Ichi, so don't feel bad if you are not able to lock hate like a PLD ^^;

[Sabaron]

Once you get Ni Elementals, you'll be able to grab a lot more hate. Debuff tools don't grab nearly as much. Remember that one of the coolest (and most expensive) things a Ninja can do is to throw Shuriken. These are very expensive . If you learn a little smithing you can make them, but in order to beat the Tenshodo price, you'll have to HQ them. Buy them from the Tenshodo, Akamafula (Lower Jeuno), Tsutsuroon (Nashmau), or Jirokichi (Norg). They have a DPS of 9.06 which is better than any other weapon the Ninja can equip at 18th level. The advanced throwing stars also sport similar qualities:

Shuriken (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/search.php?search=Shuriken)

The great expense, I think, is what keeps most Ninjas from throwing.

[Omni]

at 32, its tough to tank alone. it shouldnt be expected you can tank alone and be efficient at the same time. best bet is to get another nin or war/nin to duo tank.

evading... again at 32 your evasion isnt going to help too much. it helps but honestly, when fighting IT mobs your evade isnt going to be mind blowing. Against VT and less mobs, the evade really starts to show. again, at 32 you only have access to a limited amount of evasion. coupled with only have ichi, its tough. dont sweat urself if u are getting hit because no one can fully tank on ichi alone.

hate, do hate with dmg. u can try casting the ichi debuffs too, but its very difficult when you have a 4.5s cast window and only 3 shadows to protect you. i suggest eating meat or meat/acc foods like rice dumpling to help you out. enmity is very scarce too.

i never really worried about my hp. once you get utsusemi ni and start getting hasted regularly, youll really start to see nin tanking come into its own. the thing you should practice the most once you get ni is your timing when casting ichi when you have ni active. ichi will not overwrite ni, and if u cancel ni too early, youre left with no shadows, if you cancel to late, youll have no effect. try to cancel ni at 45-55% when casting ichi. i went through grinding w/o any focus on hp. just be alert and it should be all good.

good luck.

[Necropolis]

IMHO, evasion is good if and only if the mob is attacking you (nin tank). If the mob is chasing other members, evasion does not help for getting hate back to you.

Both bat and beetle in Garlige Citadel have AoE evasion down move. The bat has strong resist on dark element, so you may have trouble landing Blind. The Beetle has fair resist on earth element, so may have have trouble landing Slow.

Do not bet everything on evasion or parry alone. Keeping shadow up is an afford on both debuff (Blind + Slow + Paralyze) and evasion/parry. Slow on slow hitting mob like beetles or carbs, will help you the most for successful recast of Utsusemi: Ichi.

The paralyze effect of Blade: Retsu is potent at your level too. The first paralyze effect usually kicks in right after the WS is landed. It is a handy tool for getting Utsusemi: Ichi back on when all your shadows are stripped. Instead spend time on Ichi version of elemental debuff, I suggest spend time for swing katana to gain TP for Blade: Retsu.

As for hate issue, don't panic when you lost hate, just focus on how you can get the hate back. From my experience, there are some tips:
1. If the NIN tank takes a lot of damage and the healer dump big cure on NIN, the hate will shift to the healer. To avoid this situation, try to avoid damage taken, with combination of Blind, Slow, Paralyze, evasion, parry, and good timing of getting Utsusemi: Ichi back on.
2. If the NIN lose hate to melee DD (like MNK), the trick is timing of provoke. For example, a WAR/THF use SA + Stumwind and get lots of hate. If the NIN provoke right after the WAR uses SA + Stumwind, most likely the hate is still locked on the WAR. Wait for the WAR takes a few hits from the mob to lose hate, wait a couple seconds for the spike hate from SA + Stumwind decays, then NIN provoke and get the hate back.

Sometimes you may need to lost hate for recasting Utsusemi: Ichi, so don't feel bad if you are not able to lock hate like a PLD ^^;

Thanks for the insight. Being a mage at heart i just loved the Elemental Wheel, its like infinite mana font, and something I was familer with. I actually thought that was a NIN main role, more of a mana free caster, but I'm learning otherwise, at least 500K in tools later I got capped Ninjitsu for when I get the :Ni line of spells

I try casting shadows right before it hits me, I've noticed if it hits me at about 15% cast, i wont get interuppted, and it wont hit before i got them fully up. Unfortunatly in the jungle we fought nothing but mandies, so shadows lasted for about 2 sec, but at least the whm was using juices, and we had a smn that had a nice mp pool too so everything was pretty smooth.

I knew kinda that I should wait a second to try to get hate back, but seeing as this is my first serious melee job I just panic when I lost hate. I automatically hit Voke, then beserker, and start swinging away. I'm hoping to play around with it a little more tonight and refine my techniques.

So far no one in my parties has died with the exception of a party wipe when we decided to try evil weapons in the saurgmane campaign (sp? no auto translate in here), at around level 27~28. Luckily most of my parties with ninja so far have been with understanding ppl and don't mind taking a hit or two for me when i lose hate. I'm also glad that not a single party of mine was PLed, so I havn't lost out on any strageties or skill ups that i would have missed out on before.

[Necropolis]

Once you get Ni Elementals, you'll be able to grab a lot more hate. Debuff tools don't grab nearly as much. Remember that one of the coolest (and most expensive) things a Ninja can do is to throw Shuriken. These are very expensive . If you learn a little smithing you can make them, but in order to beat the Tenshodo price, you'll have to HQ them. Buy them from the Tenshodo, Akamafula (Lower Jeuno), Tsutsuroon (Nashmau), or Jirokichi (Norg). They have a DPS of 9.06 which is better than any other weapon the Ninja can equip at 18th level. The advanced throwing stars also sport similar qualities:

Shuriken (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/search.php?search=Shuriken)

The great expense, I think, is what keeps most Ninjas from throwing.

The expense isn't holding me back, its the fact that my throwing skill is equal to 1, so the odds of me hitting something now is pretty slim, so perhaps I'll spend some much needed time on doing that tonight.

[raidenn]

For throwing this might help
http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/6973

No one camps it on my server.

[Necropolis]

For throwing this might help
http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/6973

No one camps it on my server.

hate to sound like a newb, but until just now I didn't know these things returned to you. i always thought that monks carried stacks of throwing weapons for chakram (sp?). Now I see on that site it says it returns, would be a lot cheaper to level throwing with a reusable weapon as a opposed to shurikens. Thanks

[raidenn]

AGI + too.
I just got it for my THF actually. Saves money on bolts for pulling :)

[tdh]

The last time I leveled my NIN, I borrowed a Hairpin from a friend, and ate a Pumpkin (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Jack-o%27-Lantern) so I ended up with Eva+30 after food.

As soon as the mob was in range, I started casting Blind, and then I Provoked. The party set up was BLU, BLU, PUP, COR, WHM, and myself as NIN. I know part of my abilities to keep shadows up, and keep hate was due to the BLUs spamming Head Butt. So the mob was Stunned all the time, but I kept hate 90% of the time, and kept my shadows up. (I must say it feels real nice to go an entire fight with out taking any damage with Shadows to spare at Lv.28! ^^)

So I'd Blind, Provoke, Hojo and check my Shadows, Provoke, cast Huton before Blade: Retsu (Dunno if it helps, but thought I'd test out if the Ice down effect helps the Paralyze effect from Retsu.), and just swing away. It served me well my last two trips to the Bay against Dhalmels. For the most part I just gave up on the Ichi Elemental Wheel since they took so long to cast, and did 4~10dmg. During that 4 seconds, I could land 2 hits, each for 10~20dmg and build more Enmity.

[Sabaron]

hate to sound like a newb, but until just now I didn't know these things returned to you. i always thought that monks carried stacks of throwing weapons for chakram (sp?). Now I see on that site it says it returns, would be a lot cheaper to level throwing with a reusable weapon as a opposed to shurikens. Thanks

I would definitely recommend Rogey for a fun toy, but for skilling up, use Darts. They're very cheap, very fast, and do very little damage, so you can chuck them at a mob all day and not kill it.

Rogey is slow... and it's weak... Shuriken are fast, and strong. Rogey is no substitute for a finely made stack of shuriken for catching a monster's eye, but it is fun... It also looks cool. I wear it around as BLU b/c BLU stinks at throwing and I can get +1 AGI off of it and use it for pulling when I need to.

Think Xena...

She had one. ^^

I also love pumpkins by the way. Make them yourself in the field if possible so you can carry a bunch.

[Lmnop]

I agree with all words spoken in this thread, except for one small point from Celeal. I actually don't think it matters when you voke. You should provoke every 30 seconds, regardless. See, hate is always building from every single action or part of an action, but it's also always slipping away. Over time, it naturally decays, and taking damage lowers it much quicker. So if you provoke every 30 seconds, you continue to gain hate. If you provoke as soon as a war/thf does SA Sturmwind and don't get hate, that doesn't mean your provoke was any less effective.

Think of it like a simple math equation. 100 + 50 - 10 - 10 = 130, and 100 - 10 - 10 + 50 = 130 also. If you have 100 hate, it doesn't matter if the warrior loses 10 hate twice (from being hit twice, for instance) before or after your provoke (for +50 hate). The only difference is that by not provoking every 30 seconds, you give up the chance to provoke again sooner for additional hate. I guess this would be an "Opportunity cost." Or something. The time you spent meleeing for hate instead. But in the case of job abilities, it's usually just time lost.

[IfritnoItazura]

You need two sets of gears, really. I like to think of the Tanking/Evasion set as base, and a Attack/Damage subset which you swich in and out as needed. (I also had a throwing set, but I was nuts and tossed away gils in the form of shurikens.) BTW, you will get hit, no matter what, so a bit of defense is a good thing.

Your gear seems quite good, but here's what I would use, if I'm back at Lv.32 again as a Tarutaru instead of a Mithra (and if I have gils):

* = hard to obtain or very expensive, so optional.

Evasion/Tanking
Head: Empress Hairpin
Body: Chainmail +1 or Federation Gi > Jujitsu Gi
Hands: Federation Tekko > Ochiudo's Kote or Horomusha Kote*
Legs: Kingdom Trousers > Royal Squire's Breeches
Feet: Winged Boots > Mountain Gaiters or Fuma Kyahan*
Neck: Spike Necklace > Peacock Charm/Amulate*
Waist: Warrior's Belt +1 > Survival Belt
Back: Breath Mantle or Nomad's Mantle
Ear1: Dodge Earring or Optical Earring or Parrying Earring
Ear2: Dodge Earring > Evasion Earring*
Rings: Some combination of Reflex Ring, Courage Ring, and/or Shikaree Ring* > some combination of Alacrity Ring, Puissance Ring, Venerer Ring and/or Sniper Ring.

Attack/Damage
Body: Nanban Kariginu or Wonder Kaftan > Jujitsu Gi
Hands: (no change)
Legs: Republic Subligar
Feet: Wonder Clomps > Fuma Kyahan*
Neck: (no change)
Waist: Tilt Belt
Back: (no change)
Ear1: Beetle Earring +1 or Optical Earring
Ear2: Beetle Earring +1
Rings: Same, except no Reflex Ring, nor Alacrity Ring.

* * *

Food wise, Dorado Sushi gave me the best results, with Rice Dumpling a distant but workable second. A friend of mine says Squid Sushi also works well, and I don't see anything wrong with Sole Sushi except for its price.

I tried Jack-o'-Lanterns as well, but hated it--was actually happy that party broke early so I didn't have to keep embrassing myself by losing mobs to others. (Was using Rice Dumpling the first 30min--that worked much better.)

* * *

If you can get your throwing capped (outside of exp parties, skill up using darts or Rogetsurin), Juji Shuriken is a very potent damage (therefore enmity) tool. If you only had seen them in action on mandies... Well, you'll have to add Range accuracy gears like Horn Ring +1 x2 to switch in on throwing macros to make it work.

Exactly how good are they? Let's just say back in the dual tanking levels, I've always out damage any and all other NIN's in the party, even when they were two levels above me. ^_-

Unfortunately, Shurikens tend to have the same problem as Sole Sushi... Effective when used correctly, but pricy...

* * *

If you're solo tanking bats before Utsusemi: Ni, and there's no WHM (i.e. no Raise), consider bringing your own reraise earring. >_> If you can find the inventory space for it. <_<;;

[Celeal]

I agree with all words spoken in this thread, except for one small point from Celeal. I actually don't think it matters when you voke. You should provoke every 30 seconds, regardless. See, hate is always building from every single action or part of an action, but it's also always slipping away. Over time, it naturally decays, and taking damage lowers it much quicker. So if you provoke every 30 seconds, you continue to gain hate. If you provoke as soon as a war/thf does SA Sturmwind and don't get hate, that doesn't mean your provoke was any less effective.

Think of it like a simple math equation. 100 + 50 - 10 - 10 = 130, and 100 - 10 - 10 + 50 = 130 also. If you have 100 hate, it doesn't matter if the warrior loses 10 hate twice (from being hit twice, for instance) before or after your provoke (for +50 hate). The only difference is that by not provoking every 30 seconds, you give up the chance to provoke again sooner for additional hate. I guess this would be an "Opportunity cost." Or something. The time you spent meleeing for hate instead. But in the case of job abilities, it's usually just time lost.

For a solo tank like WAR/MNK or PLD/WAR, I would go for Provoke every 30 seconds.

For pre-level 37 NIN share-tank setup like NIN/WAR x2, NIN/WAR + WAR/NIN, or NIN/WAR + any backup tank, I think the timing of Provoke is based on shadows, not necessary every 30 seconds.

Let say if all shadows of NIN tank are stripped, and the timer of Utsusemi: Ichi is not ready. Instead of holding solid hate and risk for Utsusemi: Ichi getting interrupted, the NIN tank can let the mob turns to the DD for a moment, then recast Utsusemi: Ichi, and then Provoke and bounce the hate back to NIN tank.

If the hate bounce to DD and the NIN does not Provoke right away, it is true that the NIN wastes time on Provoke timer. However, it is also true that the shadows can stay on the NIN longer time and more time is given for Utsusemi: Ichi timer.

Let say WAR/THF uses SA + Stumwind when the NIN/WAR only has 1 shadow left and Utsusemi: Ichi timer is not ready. The NIN/WAR can wait until Utsusemi: Ichi timer is ready, then Provoke and try to get hate back, and then overlap the shadow with Utsusemi: Ichi once the mob turns to the NIN.

If the WAR/THF uses SA + Stumwind when all shadows of NIN is stripped, the NIN can take the time to recast Utsusemi: Ichi while the mob's attention is on the WAR/THF. That way the NIN does not risk the chance of getting interrupted while casting Utsusemi: Ichi.

However, if the hate goes to the WHM or BLM, who cannot take much damage, timing is critical.

It depends on who is taking the damage and how much time he can take the damage.

[Lmnop]

I agree 100% and I'm glad you found a way to thoroughly explain that. I think learning when -not- to tank is a skill one must learn pre :Ni. It appears I misunderstood what you were saying in your first post and I'm very grateful for your elaboration.

[Armando]

I don't really have much to add to this, but I'm starting to suspect that only hate from JAs actually degrades on its own with time. Just a hunch. And yeah, learning to bounce hate as a NIN tank is a very beautiful, delicate, and hard to do balancing act.

By the way, Beetles aren't strong to Earth ;3 The only mob families strong to Earth are Worms, Hippogryfs (sp?), Antica, and, uh...I'm forgetting one, I think (outside of the obvious like Elementals and Avatars.)

[Necropolis]

Thanks for all the advice guys, and after trying all the suggestions last night I think I am more prepared to tank with or with Utsusemi:Ni. I've got my throwing up and purchased a Katanan with 25% spell interupption down, as well as one with +1str/agl. With a more DD set-up (+str,+att, et cetera) I put up respectable numbers, and still evade a moderate amount.

So again thanks for all the help ^^

[Karinya]

I don't really have much to add to this, but I'm starting to suspect that only hate from JAs actually degrades on its own with time. Just a hunch. And yeah, learning to bounce hate as a NIN tank is a very beautiful, delicate, and hard to do balancing act.
Especially when one of your DDs is something like SAM/RNG with attack food and gear. I love that setup but it's hell on NIN and WAR/NIN tanks. They really can't match the higher enmity generation of a PLD, WAR/MNK or BLU/WAR, and shouldn't be expected to.
By the way, Beetles aren't strong to Earth ;3 The only mob families strong to Earth are Worms, Hippogryfs (sp?), Antica, and, uh...I'm forgetting one, I think (outside of the obvious like Elementals and Avatars.)
Cockatrices, definitely. Mandragora aren't precisely strong to earth but it is one of the few elements they aren't weak to.

[Armando]

Cockatrices, of course! I knew I was forgetting something :D By the way, I made a mistake with the Hippogryphs. They're actually just about the only mob family that's weak to Earth.

[Ninja Kitten]

My advice on nin tanking pre-37 is...don't. ;) A well equipped nin geared for damage can easily keep up with just about any other DD and in the long run, it'll be more effective to do that with a pld or war/mnk tank. However, most people see nin and think "UBER TANK!" even though it's pre-37 and you're stuck iwth only one utsu that takes forever to cast.

A nin never really has the hate control of a pld, so holding hate is always going to be difficult. So, if you are tank, your best bet is to get as much +enmity as you can and max out your damage output. Evading hits, but keep in mind that +evasion is only half as effective as your actual evasion skill.

If you find yourself taking too much damage, then you should start trying to swap in some damage mitigation (eva, agi, vit, def, etc) to accomodate that, as long as you don't hurt your damage/hate control too much.

Dual Tanking is probably the best way for a nin to tank pre-37. Two nins can be rather effective, though due to the aforementioned "provoke when the other's shadows are down" aspect, hate control is usually even less certain in this set up than in a solo nin-tank setup. However, the lack of damage taken can make up for this as long the DDs know how to hold back when needed.

What I ended up doing when taking my nin up for my war was go full DD with Pumpkin Head II (later switched with cache-nez) and that +enmity sash. I held hate against everything except monks in the jungles, but started having trouble at 32, so I staticked from 32 to 37 with my <3's nin and let her do the tanking while I DD'd. >_>

[Rai]

pre 50 Throwing with even the lvl 18 shurikens will keep hate glued to you. I used +R.Acc gear macro before throwing. Only 2 per mob need hit to really help hate.

Make sure the RDM is landing enfeebles or enfeeble the mob yourself.

For some reason lately I get into parties that don't have RDMs, either CORs or BRDs. I Blind, Slow and Paralyze. Tanking a blind, slow and paralyzed mob is easier than one that is not.

[Sabaron]

..Only 2 per mob need hit to really help hate...

I've found that (from 20-24) in order to keep Throwing capped, I need to throw about 3/4 stack to 1 stack of Shuriken per level. I didn't count spells, but it's hard to keep both up because the Ichi Elementals do very little damage compared to Shuriken, so I ended 24th level 1-point under cap for Throwing and Ninjutsu, but at cap for Katana. The lower levels are very "short" so I assume this gets down to a more reasonable level later on so you don't have to spam so much. I use Cache-nez and Breath Mantle for hate, Jack-o'-Lantern for food, and Beetle Ring +1 x2 swap in on throw. All my gear is Eva Gear except Cache-nez, but I'm thinking I might switch to DD-oriented gear for Kazham because I've seen how difficult a time Ninja's have there as tanks.

[Celeal]

IMHO, I had a lot of fun NIN tanking the mandies in Kazham. At level 24 NIN can wear the chainmail, so the defense is about the same as WAR or PLD at that level. The worst case is take hit like a level 24 WAR/MNK or PLD/WAR. Those mandy does not one-shot kill the tank anyway: very low risk and tank-friendly ^^;

From my experience, once blind is landed on the mandies, combine with evasion gear/food, their acc. drop a lot. Stack Blind + Slow, the mandies rate of stripping shadows would be seriously crippled. Add Blade: Retsu or Paralyze on top of Blind + Slow, my shadows often last long enough until the Utsusemi: Ichi /recats timer is ready.

As for recasting Utsusemi: Ichi, if the mandy is slow-ed, start casting at the time between the mandy's 1st fist strike and 2nd fist strike, this way you can avoid being interrupted.

[Lmnop]

I wish more of the game was like the times having only one nin tank and no one else with shadows. Even losing hate to the BLM for a swing or 2 meant I could recast shadows fighting Gigas in the tower >.>

Mandies are ftw in kazham. Their base (un-slowed) delay is enough to cast between swings. Like Celeal said, add on some debuffs and they're pretty cake. Nin has higher VIT grade than WAR, and same defense bonus trait 20+. MNK has best VIT grade (tied with PLD), so subbing MNK to war probably makes their VIT exactly the same as nin/war. So... same vit, same def, same equipment (until 29). No where near the amount of hate tools, of course... but the point is, it's ok for a NIN to step in, tank while he can, try to get hate when he's not. Nothing hits hard enough to worry much about mp conservation. Ride the flow, keep your wits and your shadows about you and you'll do fine.