Whm, Nin and the 2nd voker pre lvl 37

[Malevolent]

Is it to much to ask a Whm to cast slow and to ask for a 2nd voke when shadows are down during a EXP party??? It helps alot when it sticks becasue of the 4 sec cast time...it seems the mobs have a 3 sec attack interval. Since i odn't have Hojo yet i can't do it...

Everytime i ask a whm to cast slow so i don't have to depend on a 2nd voker half the time i always get crap and the whm makes me look like a crappy Nin.

My AGI+ set up at lvl 20

Gassan +1 AGI Wing Pendant +1 AGI
Kingdom bandana +1 AGI Bounding Boots AGI+3
Reflex Ring x2 AGI+4 Rpgetsurin AGI+1

So i have some pretty good agility with Kurayami its a lil added bonus. But still sometimes its not enough....so is it too much to ask for a whm to pitch in a few slows when a Nin's shadows are down?

!

[Murphie]

Any WHM worth his/her salt will be casting at least Dia, Slow and Paralyze every fight during that range. Unless of course there is someone else doing it, but in that case it's kind of a moot point.

It's not at all unreasonable of you to ask that.

[Jei]

There are lots of free-riding Whms out there really. I once PT with a horrible horrible Whm and we had PLD for our tank. No debuff, no regen, hardly any cure, I was the BLM who did all the main healing in that PT. All the Whm did was brag about how great he was when he PT with nin tanks....

[Murphie]

That WHM was a disgrace to the profession in that case. :(

[tdh]

As a RDM, you preaching to the choir when it comes to Enfeebling and me. I know when I'm leveling WHM, I often toss in those Enfeebles just from pure habit! lol You do them for your entire career THEN notice the habit you've started as an Enfeebler!

Even with out a NIN tank, somebody should trying to make the tanks job easier by landing Slow and Paralyze. Mob sends a paralyzed message twice in a row, and that's MP the WHM doesn't have to spend dumping on somebody else. Still amazes me how people fail to see things like this.

[Akashimo]

If the mob is low enough, I'd debuff it with the said spells, but my enfeebling magic skill is under 200 {/cry}. Most pties was rdm & pld, or nins using their enfeebles to set hate. So i just cover with sleep any link mobs if Elemental Seal is up :X and Cure V the rdm after convert if she/he has a slept mob that just was atked w/o being voked/flash/ninjutsued

[Murphie]

Keep in mind he's asking about pre-37, folks.

[Akashimo]

Oh :p I think at that point i usually have been casting the basic enfeebles, not sure though, been 2 years since my whm was under 37 XD Though a whm with common sense and no rdm in the pty should be doing that :x

[Raydeus]

Sadly many players have the post Ni image of NIN and expect NIN to be able to tank without backup voke with Ichi alone, they simply don't understand what recast time is. :angry:



If you time Utsusemi so the mob hits you when you are at around 10% casting time you should be able to cast Utsusemi before next attack without interruption.

(You don't get interrupted as long as casting time when you get hit is less than 15%ish, no exactly sure what the max % is, but I hope that helps)

[Kitalrez]

Must be a new WHM thing. I got used to tossing Slow, Dia, and Para every battle early, then we hit 40 range and I got used to RDMs complaining about casting Slow, Dia, and Para while trying to keep the Refresh cycle going. Then I got used to casting Slow, Dia, Para and a few Hastes every battle. Last time I partied on WHM, I got a /tell from the RDM saying I could probably cut back on the enfeebles. It shocked me, not because I got let off the hook, but more because I forgot he was still in the party by that point.

It's a little different when I party on SMN, though.

NIN>> Hey, I need Slow on this mob
ME>> *looks at his enfeebling magic skill* heh heh?
NIN>> Paralyze would help too.
ME>> HAHAHAHAHAHAHA... you're kidding, right?

[Icemage]

I don't understand WHMs who don't think they can enfeeble pre-40. RDM has hardly any advantage up through about level 40, since their marginally higher Enfeebling Magic skill is offset by their lower MND score (works out to about the same success rate).

It's really only after 40 that the gulf starts to widen, as the skill gap in Enfeebling becomes larger while MND differences start to matter less. Even with elemental staves and AF body, WHM enfeebling magic success can only be classified as "mediocre or worse" beyond 60 until you get to level 75 and have the option to merit Enfeebling Magic.

So it's definitely not unreasonable to ask a WHM to cast Slow for you pre-37 (or even Paralyze, since both Hojo: Ichi and Jubaku: Ichi take so long to cast).


Icemage

[Malevolent]

that comes to another point...does Nin-Hojo and Whmor Rdm slow stack?? I mean its the same enfeeble so i'm guessing it wouldn't.

Also every whm i've come across is a total waste of space...i don't mean to sound harsh but I've died or 2 houred <when i could> becasue either the whm wasn't paying attention or they were out of mp...But i'm glad to know this Dunes lvl is only a phase lol:evil:

[Icemage]

Slow II > Hojo: Ni = Hoji: Ichi = Slow I
Paralyze II > Jubaku: Ichi = Paralyze I
Blind II = Kurayami: Ni > Blind I = Kurayami: Ichi

If you've only been in parties with WHMs that suck then you haven't seen very many high level WHMs. :) It's an excellent job when played correctly. The reason many of the lower level WHM suck is because, despite the rate of invites, there are a lot of people that are just levelling it just as a subjob through 37 or 38 and don't really care about the doing a good job.

Career WHMs who focus on what they're doing bring healing efficiency with low enmity to the table, and that's a very powerful combination.


Icemage

[Jei]

Hoji ni is just equal to ichi? So it only casts faster?

[Icemage]

Hoji ni is just equal to ichi? So it only casts faster?
Pretty sure. I don't remember if Slow I is overwritten by Hojo: Ni - it might be. I know Slow II overwrites them both, based on some recent commentary posted on the board a few days ago.

Something worth testing, I guess. :)


Icemage

[Kitalrez]

If you've only been in parties with WHMs that suck then you haven't seen very many high level WHMs. :) It's an excellent job when played correctly. The reason many of the lower level WHM suck is because, despite the rate of invites, there are a lot of people that are just levelling it just as a subjob through 37 or 38 and don't really care about the doing a good job.
Career WHMs who focus on what they're doing bring healing efficiency with low enmity to the table, and that's a very powerful combination.
Icemage

Icemage is right here. If you're playing with someone who plans to be a "Career WHM", or at least someone who wants to hit the AF stage with the job, they're gonna be pretty good at staying on top of enfeebles. The math just makes sense. On a PLD tank at my current 65 lvl range, every time Paralyze activates on a mob, that's a Cure II I don't have to cast. I've had battles where I looked at the benefit of Slow, and we were seriously looking at the Cure IV/V range. It may not always stick, but if the RDM and BLM aren't moving, I'm definitely making at least an attempt to debuff. Maybe the act of getting up, making the attempt, and getting resisted will prompt someone who can actually stick the spell to give it a shot.

[Karinya]

Must be a new WHM thing. I got used to tossing Slow, Dia, and Para every battle early, then we hit 40 range and I got used to RDMs complaining about casting Slow, Dia, and Para while trying to keep the Refresh cycle going. Then I got used to casting Slow, Dia, Para and a few Hastes every battle. Last time I partied on WHM, I got a /tell from the RDM saying I could probably cut back on the enfeebles. It shocked me, not because I got let off the hook, but more because I forgot he was still in the party by that point.
It's a little different when I party on SMN, though.
NIN>> Hey, I need Slow on this mob
ME>> *looks at his enfeebling magic skill* heh heh?
NIN>> Paralyze would help too.
ME>> HAHAHAHAHAHAHA... you're kidding, right?

If you have Fenrir, you can Lunar Cry to reduce acc (and eva, a nice side benefit), then since Lunar Cry is a Ward, follow up immediately with Crescent Fang which causes paralyze. This is not that expensive (60 MP plus perpetuation and the initial summon cost) and available from level 21. Without Fenrir, you could try Leviathan's Slowga (if the area is clear) followed by Tail Whip for Gravity, but that doesn't give you acc down, costs more MP and Slowga is level 33. Tail Whip will probably do more damage than Crescent Fang, though.


In general unless there is a RDM casting paralyze and slow, a WHM should be casting them; if you don't have either of those, a BLM with appropriate SJ can cast them too. Generally it's better for ninjas to cast their own blind since it has pretty substantial hate.

Many people seem to think that the only spells a WHM needs to cast are the ones with Cure, Protect or Shell in the name. This is not true, and when someone who believes this plays WHM, it becomes a problem.

[Kitalrez]

If you have Fenrir, you can Lunar Cry to reduce acc (and eva, a nice side benefit), then since Lunar Cry is a Ward, follow up immediately with Crescent Fang which causes paralyze. This is not that expensive (60 MP plus perpetuation and the initial summon cost) and available from level 21. Without Fenrir, you could try Leviathan's Slowga (if the area is clear) followed by Tail Whip for Gravity, but that doesn't give you acc down, costs more MP and Slowga is level 33. Tail Whip will probably do more damage than Crescent Fang, though.
Yeah, that's actually a fairly new tactic. I wasn't even aware yet the debuffs were considered Wards instead of Rages. On the other hand, Slowga rarely stuck long enough pre-patch to make it worth using, so I'm not in the habit of looking through Leviathan's menu for it just yet.

One suggestion to your debuff list here, though, you're using Lunar Cry to drop ACC and EVA, your Rage attack however, is Paralyze. That's nice and all, but you might want to look at whipping out a Moonlight Charge instead. It's a lot less damage than Crescent Fang, but it's going to stick the Blind effect on a target that already has ACC down. Now, with an already hard to hit character, like a NIN tank, that would have the effect of doubling-up the accuracy penalty you already stuck on the mob. If you're taking on something that's already pretty slow and inaccurate, like a Dhalmel, that might be worth more in terms of damage mitigation than the Paralyze.

This is fairly new territory for SMNs in party, though. Before the patch, Slowga stuck so rarely or was such a short duration effect that most of us stuck to Earthen Wards and Ecliptic Howl/Growls depending on the tanker. That last patch levelled the playing field for SMNs in party so much it's awe-inspiring. I hope the rest of you do as well as we have when your job updates come down the line.

[Jei]

Luna cry misses so much tho :(

[Androus]

If the whm only cure, you can try to ask her to be a outside party healer, like all the GS party does :) jk

[Murphie]

Please don't bump old posts unless you have something constructive to add.