Level 60+ DRG/SAM, the ultimate DD?

[Celeal]

I am just wondering your opinion for the following:
Post SAM's update, level 60 DRG/SAM

Hasso (from /SAM): acc +10, STR+, attack speed up 10%
Acc. Bonus (from DRG): acc +10
Life Belt: acc +10

That is already acc +30

Sniper/Wood. ring x2: acc +10

It becomes acc +40

S.H (acc +10) or J. Peti (acc +5, atk +5) + Battle gloves (acc +3) + any neck/ear/head/weapon gear that adds acc...

We can push acc. over +50

Food: Meat or other +attack food!!!!!!!

Additional TP gain tools:
Jump, High Jump, Mediate (60 TP every 3 min from /SAM), Zanshin, Store TP, Attack speed up from Hasso

Defense:
Third Eye, Super Jump

Finally, combine DRG's pet damage.

Even if the DRG is not able to afford S.H or Sniper Rings, there are other cheaper gears that can push acc+ close to 50 (with Hasso + Acc. Bonus Job Trait). With +attack food, DRG/SAM's DoT should be very hard hitting and accurate. Plus Jump, High Jump, Mediate (60 TP only), Zanshin, Store TP, Attack speed up from Hasso..... this is insane

[Dryhus]

All that stuff sounds great, but the thing is...half of it was there before, and the other half is available to a number of other jobs. While DRG and DRK got some love, I think WAR and SAM got some real boosts that allow them to edge out other jobs in situations where they may not have otherwise done previously. For example, if a DRG/WAR was getting overwhelmed in the damage department by a DRK/WAR, then the proposed DRG/SAM could be overwhelmed by the same DRK/SAM.

This is all objective, of course. I think MNK and DRG are the two top-tier DDs for most of the game with regard to XP PT damage. I can't say for endgame, especially 74-75 TP burn.

[Vyuru]

Really, the only reservation that I have about drg/sam is the tp gain issue. Yes, Meditate and tp store is all well and good, however I am a firm believer in SC+MB parties. Unless I can consistantly get to 100%+ tp and use a WS, and then get another 100%+ tp to do a SC with my SC partner, the tp benefits are worthless to me.

The flat out +10acc from Hasso is nice, the +str IMO, is negliable since by level 50 I had about +16 str give or take some in gear, with the option for more. Haste is always a good thing and at the very least now you wouldn't need haste from a mage, though it would be an added bonus.

I dunno, it sounds nice, but I think /warrior might still be the best sub, I haven't tried out drg/sam yet, but I will when I have more time to level samurai.

Bleh, have to run so I'll post the rest of what I was going to say later, which is mostly about hate issues.

[Lmnop]

What Celeal is getting at is how well all this seems to mesh together. Whether or not it was mostly all there yesterday, today it has been forged perfectly to compliment each other.

level 60:
-GK lance(7)
-Merman's Gorget(5)
-lifebelt(10
-jaridah peti(5)
-battle gloves/jaridah(3)
-hasso(10)
-trait(10)

Nice, even 50 acc with +STR/attack rings and meat dishes.

thing is, drg has always been able to get 150+ tp in the time their partners get 100 (except for SAM main). This is a mechanic that already existed but... with meditate and 2 jumps, you can use a WS outside of SC and still be on schedule with your partner. What's changed is that Hasso and Zanshin create a means of easing the loss of Double Attack and Berserk.

However, the loss is only eased. /sam used to come close to /war, it prolly now comes closer. 10% DA gets you more tp than 10% haste, and you can get enough acc to be comfortable with a Meat build in addition to Berserk for some rad fun times.

70+, /sam should allow you to tp burn like any other. Killing is priority #1, not hate control, so you make liberal use of WSs right off the bat. So while you're at it, you may as well up the number of WSs you're doing right off the bat because - look mom! - you can now survive the mob when it looks at you. Sure, you decrease your stats for a bit while you toss up Seigan -> Third Eye, but now you also have a chance to up your DMG output via Counter.

[Celeal]

But please don't forget this is a attack food setup, not a sushi setup.

[Karinya]

I think the combination of hasso, store tp and zanshin will probably outperform Double Attack for tp gain, all else being equal (i.e. same gear and food). That's *without* counting meditate (meaning it works in the 50s too).

Now of course there's also berserk, but berserk has hate issues. Hasso can easily be activated before the pull and last the whole fight, and doesn't seem to have the same monster-magnet effect berserk does. (This is based on my experience with it on SAM).

I'm currently DRG36 (taking time out from it to level SAM, as a matter of fact) and I'll probably stay /WAR until at least 40, maybe 50, but after that, I may wind up going /SAM any time I don't need to voke for SATA.

[Vyuru]

For a +acc build, it is very nice, and it would let me get insane amounts of +acc well before the Pahluwan assault set.

Now first off I should say that I am very anti gear swapping in parties, so any stance I have on gear is that it stays on unless you swap out to your "pretty" armor between pulls ;)

Str wise, I think all meat foods have +str/+att stat increases, so if a dragoon uses either the lvl 40 Ogygos's Bracelets (str+5), or the lvl 50 Enkelados's Bracelets (str+7), that should be enough +str in +str gear added with meat foods for WS damage in parties.

I think this setup could compare to drg/war, but to be really sure I would need to compare a lvl 50 drg/war who uses berserk, and a war/sam who uses a +att food like yellow curry maybe and just see who has the higher attack, and if that higher attack really makes a difference in the party.

This is well worth testing at any rate, and it sounds like a good job combo, my post may be more biased towards drg/war though since I am closing in on level 70 and a ton of +acc gear there.

When does samurai get meditate? Level 30? And Hasso is level 25 right? So it sounds like most of the benefits of this combo come into play in the level 50-60 range.

[Liquidedust]

I am just wondering your opinion for the following:
Post SAM's update, level 60 DRG/SAM
Hasso (from /SAM): acc +10, STR+, attack speed up 10%
Acc. Bonus (from DRG): acc +10
Life Belt: acc +10
That is already acc +30
Sniper/Wood. ring x2: acc +10
It becomes acc +40
S.H (acc +10) or J. Peti (acc +5, atk +5) + Battle gloves (acc +3) + any neck/ear/head/weapon gear that adds acc...
We can push acc. over +50
Food: Meat or other +attack food!!!!!!!
Additional TP gain tools:
Jump, High Jump, Mediate (60 TP every 3 min from /SAM), Zanshin, Store TP, Attack speed up from Hasso
Defense:
Third Eye, Super Jump
Finally, combine DRG's pet damage.
Even if the DRG is not able to afford S.H or Sniper Rings, there are other cheaper gears that can push acc+ close to 50 (with Hasso + Acc. Bonus Job Trait). With +attack food, DRG/SAM's DoT should be very hard hitting and accurate. Plus Jump, High Jump, Mediate (60 TP only), Zanshin, Store TP, Attack speed up from Hasso..... this is insane
This is a nice acc setup for meat build, but lets compare it for a few with a sushi DRG/WAR with atk setup shall we (just for comparison).
DRG60/WAR
Accuracy Items / Traits / Food

Acc. Bonus: +10 (DRG)
Sniper/Wood Ringsx2: +10
Scorpion Harness: +10
Sole Sushi: +33 acc
Total: +63 acc
Attack Items / Traits

Atk. Bonus: +10
Swordbelt+1: +12
Spiked Finger Gauntlets: +12
Sole Sushi: +2 (from STR)
Total: +36 Atk (+120 Berserked)
DRG60/SAM
Accuracy Items / Traits / Food

Acc. Bonus: +10 (DRG)
Sniper/Wood Ringsx2: +10
Scorpion Harness: +10
Life Belt: +10 acc
Battle Gloves: +3 acc
Hasso: +10 acc
Total: +53 acc
Attack Items / Traits

Atk. Bonus: +10
Arrabiatto: +68 Atk
Total: +78 Atk
Basically if all other gear slots are occupied by similar gear (not much options for either subjob here) the DRG/WAR will have 10~ more acc all the time and 50~ more Atk 60% of the time.
If you get hasted the 10% Haste effect from Hasso as DRG/SAM will perform better then the 10% Double Attack as DRG/WAR.
If you don't get hasted (slap the RDMs and WHMs if you don't) Hasso and Double Attack are comparable in extra swings and additional damage (Double Attack comes up ahead in single fights while Hasso will show an improvement in overall stats).
Due to the delay of Lances Store TP wont give you 100% in swing less unless you achieve a total of +25 Store TP which today require Store TP II (+15), Rajas Ring (+5) and Arrabiatto (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/7728) (+5) for a total of exactly +25 which is why I included it in the above example.
Basically DRG/SAM with Arribiatto as food will gain 100% TP approx 20% faster compared to a DRG/WAR thanks to Haste effect from Hasso and Store TP setup and will have slighty higher weaponskill damage.
DRG/WAR will on the other hand hit harder 60% of the time and have slightly lower damage compared to a DRG/SAM 40% of the time depending on if Berserk is up or not.
Basically both jobs are a toss-up, if you are in a regular SC party and your skillchain partner is SAM main or /SAM sub I would say to sub SAM to keep up with TP gain to initiate WS earlier. In other cases where straight up damage is more important or you SC with someone that gains TP considerably slower then you /WAR si the way to go.

[IfritnoItazura]

Minor correction, but attack bonus from /WAR won't stack with DRG's native attack bonus.

How did you calculate the base numbers for food effects on accuracy and attack?

[LilithAngel]

Actually, Liquidedust, the Attack Bonus trait is Dragoon native, not from the Warrior sub (Dragoon gets Attack Bonus at level 10, the earliest it shows up in the game besides Dark Knight, who also gets it at level 10). DRG/SAM would have it as well. Just had to point that out.

And while this is signifigantly farther than 60, today I had a (rather short) party in Lufaise Meadows with some ls members, and I decided to give drg/sam a try today (had been leveling Samurai for a while, only level 36, but still close enough for 'prototype' purposes), and I must say, I was pleasantly surprised at how I performed. Here was my gear/food loadout:

Mezraq (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/8157)
Tiphia Sting (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/6981)
Homam Zucchetto (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/7538)
Chivalrous Chain (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/8241)
Assault Earring (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/2070)
Merman's Earring (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/2758)
Drachen Mail +1 (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/7486)
Spike Finger Gauntlets (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/5471)
Flame Ring (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/2913) x2
Amemet Mantle +1 (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/1946)
Swordbelt +1 (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/1866)
Barone Cosciales (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/5894)
Rutter Sabatons (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/7045)

Jump: Drachen Greaves (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/2242)
High Jump: Wyrm Brais (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/4433)
Impulse Drive: Shadow Gorget (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/6570)
Angon: well... Angons

Food: Coeurl Subs

My skillchain partner was one of the Samurai in the ls, so I know TP was gonna be an issue if I couldn't keep up. It never was. Between Hasso, Meditate, and the additional Haste from the helm, my attack rate was plenty fast to grab TP, in addition to the Store TP traits, Store TP gear, and Meditate. My TP was rather even with the Samurai, and my damage output wasn't hurt in the least bit (even considering that we were fighting birds). It got to the point that we were popping off two Darkness skillchains per bird (the Paladin did his usual weapon swap/rest routine, so no Savage Blade for Light). I never missed DA, Berserk, or (rarely) my targets that party.

Unless I'm needed for some really 'out there' reason as another Provoke, I'm going /SAM from now on. Hasso, Meditate, Seigan/Third Eye, Store TP, and Zanshin > Double Attack, Berserk, Warcry, and Provoke in my book, easily. /WAR may look better on paper, but in practice, /SAM is the clear winner, by far.

[Liquidedust]

Minor correction, but attack bonus from /WAR won't stack with DRG's native attack bonus.

How did you calculate the base numbers for food effects on accuracy and attack?

Opps forgot about that DRG has Atk bonus I as well, calculated Atk slightly high actually around 300 with gear on. Will edit it to reflect it properly.

Attack
Below 300 Atk /WAR will basically win out every time, this is due to Atk food caps and percentage increases. At 300-sih and above Atk /SAM and /WAR are on more equal footing thanks to higher caps on Atk food for an acc build.

This is the reason I used 300 Atk since anything below that really would show larger output for /WAR compared to /SAM (300 will not happen to around 62~63 though but is close enough).


Still the Attack I calculated on Arrabiatto in the following way based on a 300 Atk base with gear on.

Arrabiatto

HP +15% (Cap: 150@1000 Base HP)
Strength +5
Vitality +2
Intelligence -7
Attack +22.5% (Cap: 120@533 Base Attack)
Store TP +5300*0.225 = 67.5

See now I rounded the numbers up for Atk caps but that still is only 1 Atk diff. This gives us a +68 Atk bonus when using food and acc setup.

For all you Atk food effect needs I recommend Food Compare 0.95 (http://darkani.brinkster.net/foodcompare/index.asp) if you don't feel like doing all teh math yourself.

Accuracy
For accuracy I used the formula of NQ sushi 15% acc with a cap at around +35~ acc (the cap Studio Gobli managed to figure out).

based it on 203 skill (level 60 A+ cap)

Skill 1-200 = 1:1 skill:acc ratio
200 skill = 200 acc


Skill 201+ = 1:0.9 skill:acc ratio
3 skill = 2 acc (rounded down since most stuff in this game rounds down)


Since I weren't actually sure if sushi takes acc gear in account I exluded it from the calculation and just did:

( 200+(3*0.9) ) * 0,15 = 30.405

then added the 3 acc 6 DEX will give you for a total bonus of +33 acc rounded down.


If sushi takes gear acc into consideration we will hit the +35 acc cap from sushi still it is an issue of 2 acc extra so will not make much of a diffrence.

[Celeal]

In practice, is acc +50 enough for exp. parties? Or we want acc +60?

I would borrow Liquidedust's level 60 DRG/SAM gear setup (see above post):

DRG60/SAM
Accuracy Items / Traits / Food

--- Acc. Bonus: +10 (DRG)
--- Sniper/Wood Ringsx2: +10
--- Scorpion Harness: +10
--- Life Belt: +10 acc
--- Battle Gloves: +3 acc
--- Hasso: +10 acc

Total: +53 acc

If we use the neck-slot Chivalrous Chain (Strength +3, Accuracy +5, Store TP +1), total becomes acc +58.

If we also add ammo-slot Tiphia Sting (HP -25, Accuracy +2, Attack +2, Evasion -4) or ear-slot Assault Earring (Accuracy +2, Attack +5, Evasion -2, Defense -3), we can push the total acc. over 60.


Acc +60 with attack food all time.


With Zanshin from /SAM, if the DRG/SAM has around 50 ~ 60 acc, in exp. party it is very unlike for Zanshin to miss.

Compare Double Attack and Mediate: The advantage of Mediate is the player has control when he wants to Mediate (if the timer is ready). On the other hand, Double Attack is random.

Jump, High Jump, and Mediate give DRG/SAM more control over his TP gain. If the player is smart and skillful, those JA are very useful. Double Attack is great without any doubt, but DRG/WAR has no control over when Double Attack will trigger.

[Lmnop]

Now first off I should say that I am very anti gear swapping in parties, so any stance I have on gear is that it stays on unless you swap out to your "pretty" armor between pulls ;)

This is likely from a roleplaying perspective, and it's admirable. Especially as unrealistic as gear-swapping is. But in many scenarios, it's a cheap way to increase performance and in all other scenarios, it's at least a guarenteed way to increase performance. Every little bit helps, and this goes triple for a melee job like DRG that has to strive to prove itself after a couple years of being so down-trodden. Stats for WSs and Jumps are nice, but I'm not going to be happy until every DD attends my parties with a macro ready that takes off the level 15 gloves and slaps on something with better defense, or especially takes off the -20 defense snipers and either empties the slot or fills them with some nice, cheap, phalanx rings. You will get hit, so be prepared for it.

----

I don't think anyone should aim for +60 acc in Exp parties. Honestly, I think a shade over 40 is enough to be comfortable. Though using a slow, 2-hander, you may as well push out a little extra where you can, I guess. Still, once you get over 50 don't expect much results.

[IfritnoItazura]

Below 300 Atk /WAR will basically win out every time, this is due to Atk food caps and percentage increases. At 300-sih and above Atk /SAM and /WAR are on more equal footing thanks to higher caps on Atk food for an acc build.
I don't understand this statement; would you mind elaborating on this?

Let's say that including gears, a DRG40/WAR20 has 150 base attack, and a DRG40/SAM has 140 base attack.

DRG40/WAR20: (on sushi; no attack boost)
base Attack (w/gear) = 150
w/out Berkserk: attack = 150
with Berkserk(25% boost): attack = 187 (150+37)
average Attack (w/Berserk full time) = 174 (150 * 2 + 187 *3) / 5

DRG40/SAM20: (on Dhalmel Pie; +25% attack, cap:45@180)
base Attack (w/gear) = 140
average Attack (with food)= 175 (140+35)


Unless my assumption of 150 and 140 base attack numbers are utterly unrealistic, I seem to be able to find a case where DRG40/SAM20 on attack food will have slightly better attack on average than DRG40/WAR20 on sushi.

And, 150 is clearly lower than 300... Why do you claim 300 such a barrier for base attack when it comes to judging effectiveness of attack food?


Instead, I would argue just the opposite of what you've stated; higher the base attack, more advantage Berserk would give, since it's uncapped, and always gives 25%. (Attack food with higher level cap have lower percentage boost.)

If sushi takes gear acc into consideration we will hit the +35 acc cap from sushi still it is an issue of 2 acc extra so will not make much of a diffrence.
I've never came across information on accuracy cap from sushi before; do you have a reference for it?

Also, according to http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Accuracy

Accuracy = ( 200+ (Combat Skill-200)*0.92 + DEX/2 + (+accuracy from gear) + (+accuracy from trait/ability) ) * (1+ percentage from food effect)
* * *
Going to derail the topic for a bit...

Slightly different way of looking at accuracy; how is much is haste worth vs. effective accuracy? (Effective accuracy is always measured, not calculated from food/gear/traits--and is always expressed as a percentage, or the ratio of connected hits / swings taken.)

Well, how much the haste effect is worth actually depends on the effective accuracy.

Let's say your accuracy is 70%. A 10% hastemeans you attack 10% more than when you are not using that haste.

Taking a concrete example, instead of 100 swings over a set period of time, you'd make 110 swings. But, how many of those swings would you expect to connect?

Well, your accuracy is 70%, so you'd expect 7 out of 10 of the extra swings to connect, for a grand total of 77 hits. Compare that to not having the haste, which you would expect to connect 70 hits only.

So, the 10% additional haste for someone with 70% accuracy is just as good as no haste but 77% accuracy! Or, that haste is worth 7% additional accuracy. For someone with 80% accuracy, however, that same 10% haste would be worth 8% addtitional accuracy instead!

Accuracy makes Haste more effective, you might say, and vice versa. Perhaps the best way to use DRG/SAM is to gulp down sushi, to make best use of that 10% haste effect from Hasso. Maybe.

The only way to find out is to pack both food and use a parser; human observation alone is rarely reliable enough for tweaking gear/food setup.

[Vyuru]

Slighty off topic:

I agree with Lmnop, and I should clarify my stance a little bit. I don't really consider swapping out rings for melee or elemental staffs for mages and other things of that nature to be gear swapping, when I think of gear swapping I think of the people who have an entire set of gear for weapon skills, an entire set of gear for when they melee, and another set for whatever else, and they are constantly swapping between all 3 sets of gear for maximum benefits. I know it's beneficial for some jobs like thiefs to do this, but I'm just not comfortable doing it.

Back on topic:

I'm not sure how the delay works, some people say that every 60 delay is a second, and some say that for a weapon with delay 480, it's 4 and 8/10s of a second delay.

So my question is, you get in hits a little bit faster with haste, but how long does it take you to get that extra hit in with haste that you wouldn't have otherwise? If the fight is over before that happens, is it really beneficial?

Sure we all love haste, but I normally don't notice a big difference in the speed that my parties kill things in with people hasted, the biggest difference I've ever seen is normally if the thf/nin (my SC partner) is constantly kept hasted and I do not get any haste and then he winds up waiting for me to catchup to him and SC.

Note I do not know how powerful a normal haste spell is, so I don't really have anything to compare +10% haste to.


Also a question for LilithAngel.

Since you are a merited dragoon and using Angon in parties, do you think that Angon is a suitable substitute for Berserk when you have a sub other than warrior? I'm just wondering if having Angon might have eased the difference between drg/sam and drg/war.

[Raitox]

DRG/SAM definitely got better, but I think WAR/SAM and SAM/WAR would still be better, them getting the benefits of Berserk and Double Attack, plus food, plus hasso.

[Lmnop]

time between swings for melee weapons is always delay/60. Proven. People say 100 delay = 1 second for ranged attacks. I haven't personally seen conclusive evidence of this, but it seems a fair enough estimate.

Haste(Spell) is 15% Haste. 492 delay Lance is 8.2 second delay, 10% Haste would make it swing at a speed equivalent to 443 delay or 7.4 seconds... That doesn't seem right, someone check my math (492 - [10% of 492 = ] 49.2 = 442.8 delay, right). If that's correct, you can see how sizable a chunk that is. 8.1 swings/minute vs 7.3 swings/minute. Basically, one extra/minute. That means one swing's worth/tp every minute. I guess that's technically better than Double Attack's extra tp, as swinging only 8 times/minute means only 80% of a full swing's tp (you would need to swing 2 more times to statistically be equal considering DA's 10% proc rate) not to mention full swing's worth of tp on /sam is actually more with +15 or whatever from Store TP traits. Then Zanshin. Btw, the lower your accuracy, the more useful Zanshin becomes. By that train of thought, you could likely get away with even less accuracy gear.

Undoubtedly, Hasso/Seigan was introduced to put SAM, DRG, and DRK on even playing field with their A rank weapons with all the other DDs out there. To elaborate, I mean 70+ and merit parties.

War/sam cannot use jumps and meditate together to create a near-instant weapon skill effect (plus add'l dmg from Jumps) Nor can War use Abs-TP in tandem with Meditate for similarly devastating results. We already have a sub that allows us to increase dmg output while simultaneously vastly increasing defensive capabilities. Don't get me wrong, if I can get a party to let me /sam, I'll always do it over /nin, but that wasn't the intention of the update.

Re: equip swaps. blinking out is very irritating, but I still swap out from my DD set (which, thanks to partial AF, comes complete with +4 enmity) to a hate set just for provokes (hello, +17 enmity). I do what I gotta do... I think this is why I'm a Warrior and you're not. Drg likely enjoy the idea of being a "mobile, aggressive fighter whose determination is unmatched." For me, I like the "observant, disciplined fighter who thrives on the ever-changing battlefield." But back to the real world (haha, the real game world), for DRG's equip swaps, I would never expect something of that level, but swapping on AF body for short spurts (like between pulls or low on the chain#) for wyvern regen is always nice.

[Vyuru]

Ok, so with Hasso it looks like you get in an extra swing every minute.

You miss out on double attack on jumps and WS, but how often does DA really kick in on those? Most likely not enough to be really taken into consideration. I rarely ever see extra TP after a WS, so I'm under the impression that it doesn't happen often.

So, with 7 hits/min (rounding down) toss in Store TP traits, and assuming average lance tp rate of 13tp/hit. Hmm, can't find exactly how much tp store tp II gives, so I know store tp I gives 1 tp, and I'll just assume that store tp II gives 2 tp, so +3 tp per hit. So a drg/sam would be getting 16tp/hit, at 7 hits that would be 112tp every minute assuming all hits connected.

Toss in jumps for 2x16tp for 32tp, and meditate gives 60tp when subbed correct? Jumps and Meditate won't be up every fight, but they will still be nice additions to tp gain... I must say this job combo is looking more appealing to me after doing the math.

Edit:

Forgot to mention that toss on haste on top of hasso, that would just be sick tp gain then, because haste does not reduce your tp/hit right?

And if you really wanted to, every 3 minutes toss up Meditate, jump, high jump, and you are almost at 100%tp, you might be able to toss out a self SC with that.

[Celeal]

*off topic*

Have anyone tried or partied with other war/sam, drk/sam, drg/sam? Does 2-handed weapon + /sam becomes popular exp. party combo on your server?

On my server, I don't see any DD /sam at my level range yet.

Today I tried my level 62 WAR/SAM and formed my own party, just want to see how is SAM update feel like. Party was formed, head to Bhaflau Thickets, fighted 1 Date Eruca, and the NIN tank ditched the party after the fight.... I did not even have a chance to use Raging Rush...

/end rant

As for SAM/WAR, I tried it briefly in exp. party after the update. I really felt the improvement. I ended up switch back to my PLD, because the tank gtg and none LFG.

Today I have a chance to party with other SAM/WAR. Again, I ended up switch from WAR/SAM to PLD... karma, I guess. As I tank, I really feel the pressure from the hate generated by the SAM/WAR. The 10% increase attack speed from Hasso is really strong. From now on I would put SAM/WAR at the same level with MNK/WAR in terms of hate keeping.

[LilithAngel]

Since you are a merited dragoon and using Angon in parties, do you think that Angon is a suitable substitute for Berserk when you have a sub other than warrior? I'm just wondering if having Angon might have eased the difference between drg/sam and drg/war.
I've been using Angon for a while before the update, and I was surprised (unfortunately so) to not see too much of a difference while using /WAR. Once I leveled Samurai and started to use it post-update, I also noticed a marked increase in the amount by which Angon helped. Now, it may be because of the "newness" of working with /SAM that has altered my perception, or perhaps of the different ways my character is performing with the sub, I'm not sure, but I do believe Angon is performing a bit better under /SAM than it was under /WAR.

It may have something about how Dragoon would normally use Berserk versus normal Hasso use. I'm not sure about other Dragoons, but I tend to throw up Berserk just before I weapon skill, along with Warcry and Angon (if I can), and then immediately toss Berserk if I happen to be taking hits. My WS numbers didn't seem to improve too drastically if Angon was used, nor were they consistant (due to the occasional DA).

With /SAM, I normally have Hasso up, so when I Angon before a WS, the WS tends to have a higher, more consitant average compared to before, although they don't quite spike as high (although the several Crit merits help from time to time). I prefer this outcome, as I'm a fan of consistant damage, rather than risky, spike damage. Furthermore, I also have the fallback of Seigan/Third Eye if I pull hate, and I'm not losing out too much on offense by the loss of Hasso (from both the lowered level of loss of STR/ACC/Haste versus the 25%-of-my-attack-rating boost, and the fact that I get Hasso back much sooner than I would Berserk).

This is why I feel /SAM wins out over /WAR over time. If you need large spike damage *right now*, sure, /WAR's your sub. But most Dragoons don't (or can't) find themselves in such situations, thus the attractiveness of /SAM. So to answer your question, yes, I do feel that Angon will ease the loss of Berserk, to an extent. Obviously, the more merits you put into Angon, the more it'll ease this loss. Also, Angon helps not just yourself, either.

I recently aquired Empathy for my wyvern, and I'm going to test/practice with it's use over the next few days or so. I was hesitant over spending that many merits (as I get them so few and far in between) on a G2 ability, but it was either that, or Strafe, and I felt the need to follow my strategy of "consistant, over time" versus "spike". Hopefully it helps to round out my Dragoon even more. I'll let you know what I find.

[Vyuru]

I haven't partied too much since the update, but I don't think I've seen too many /sams on my server, I saw a couple of war/sams, drk/sams, drg/sams, but I think the total number of /sam job combos in the 65-69 range was about 10 players. 2/3 drgs were /sam, I think I saw a rng/sam, 3/9ish drk were /sam, and I think the rest were either war/sam or mnk/sam.

[LilithAngel]

I've noticed that the /sam populations seems to be steadily increasing on Kujata, and of course, I've noticed that a lot of Dragoons are either trying /sam for the first time, or a lot of the Old Guard are going back to /sam.

Warriors seem reluctant to give /sam a try, but there's a few visionaries here and there.

Dark Knights seem split on the subject; on the one hand, thier melee performance is increased, but then they're having to deal with the stunted performance of thier magic. Some seem not to care, and focus purely on the melee aspect of the job, while others stay away from the sub like the plague (usually the ones who make exstensive use of thier magic).

Samurai, of course, are exstatic about the changes, and quite a few have given main tanking a try (with varied results).

[Vyuru]

I'm not sure about other Dragoons, but I tend to throw up Berserk just before I weapon skill, along with Warcry and Angon (if I can), and then immediately toss Berserk if I happen to be taking hits.

So you're going for an increase to your WS damage with all of your buffs/debuffs then? Why don't you use Berserk to boost normal damage? Or does that draw too much attention from the monsters you are fighting?

[LilithAngel]

It does. As it stands with my current gear/food choices, I tend to draw hate even if I'm simply doing nothing more than attacking; toss in a Weapon Skill, and I'm just asking for trouble. Therefore I often have to limit myself during my TP gain phase, only to unleash during my WSs. Thus I rarely see the full benefits of Berserk (and thus is why it's not as valuable to me as it seems to be to others). With Hasso, on the otherhand, I can boost my overall damage without sacrificing too much on WSs, and I draw less hate, while doing more damage. Also, if I happen to lose control over my hate, Seigan/Third Eye and a faster Super Jump /recast are there to help correct things. /WAR does not have these inherent defense mechanisms in place to ensure survival (lolDefender/Defense Bonus).

[Lmnop]

point that you probably are already aware of -- since all JAs have an associated hate spike, you're best using them long before WS. Warcry is basically Provoke, so I usually use it once I get over 80% tp. Thus, I force myself to wait before WSing by simply not being able to. Berserk is a small hate spike, but I still try to use it when TP's low when I can't do the best option: use it right before engaging mob. I had a mnk a while ago who was so happy with himself and how much he was getting hate and dying, yet he'd engage mob, punch once (just enough to be on hate list) then activate dodge, focus, berserk, counterstance (<--- that one has a bit of a spike on it). Yay for 4 JAs worth of hate that you didn't need. if you stand next to a mob you haven't hit yet - even if party members are beating on it - and use Warcry, you won't get hate.

But yeah, in your case, Lilith, if you're not going to see a full 3 minutes of Berserk, /war is useless for you. And in particular, it's end-game merit parties where /war gets any melee too much hate, and that's where I've been preaching /sam's effectiveness to be at it's greatest.

Btw, Angon has more effect w/out berserk than it does with /war due to some diminishing returns. You get attack so high and as you increase it, your damage is still increasing but at a much slower rate. And Defense down does the same thing to your dmg as attack up, so yes, Angon should be more noticable as /sam. Thought that was like a 15 minute recast though. And Tomahawk (war defense down ability) has a warcry-esque hate spike attached to it, so I wouldn't be surprised if Angon has the same.

[LilithAngel]

I suspected as much with the Angon/Berserk relationship, but no, Angon doesn't have as much of a hate spike footprint as most other JAs to begin with (Super Jump, btw, has only enough of a hate footprint to keep you on the hate list if you got on there in the first place, but otherwise has none to use for claiming purposes; SJ cannot claim).

I tried to use Berserk before the mob ever got to camp on occasion. What I noticed was that the damage itself tended to draw more attention then the use of JAs at that point; while it was good and all, I drew larger amounts of enmity faster than if I just popped them all at once before a WS (which, by that time, the tank has had time to build enmity before me). So either way, Berserk's usefulness declined with increasing support from gear/food.

[Vyuru]

Thought that was like a 15 minute recast though. And Tomahawk (war defense down ability) has a warcry-esque hate spike attached to it, so I wouldn't be surprised if Angon has the same.


Can't find the thread that talked about Angon, but I think it has a 5 minute recast timer (can be shortened to something like 3 minutes and duration can be increased to about 2 minutes I think) I haven't heard anything about how much hate it draws. Someone who actually has it would have to say for sure though.

I really might have to go and level samurai now then... Because I am starting to draw hate far to often in exp parties and High Jump and Super Jump just haven't been enough to keep it off of me.

How do multi hit weapon skills such as Pecking Fury and Goblin rush affect Seigan? Will it absorb all the hits or only some of them? I ask because it seems like blink and utsusemi will only lose one shadow when they are used.

[Celeal]

Goblin Rush can move multiple shadows. On the other hand, before the SAM update, one Third Eye could anticipate all Goblin Rush attack.

[LilithAngel]

Angon
Recast: 3 minutes
Duration:
-Lv. 1: 30 seconds
-Lv. 2: 45 seconds
-Lv. 3: 60 seconds

Effect: Lowers Defense (roughly 20%)

That should answer that question.

As far as Seigan/Third Eye vs. Multi-hit attacks: S/TE will anticipate the *entire* attack (i.e. same as Utsu only using one shadow to eat an entire Asuran Fists that would have otherwise had all 8 hits connect). I saw this in action during both exp and Ballista (Triple Attacks from Abraxas and multiple Barrages/Asuran Fists/Guilliotines/whatevers from the opposing team in Ballista). AoE will wipe out Third Eye, just like shadows (found that out courtesy of a Blue Mage in same said Ballista and a few exp parties on my Samurai).

Hope that helps.

[nickofearth]

I tried /sam out after that patch. Granted I used meat instead of sushi... I was far from impressed by it. 5 str when sam main gets 10? lol 5 is nice but I'd rather have 10 too >.> Acc isn't really needed for me I'd rather have attack >.> Thank's for the offer but I'll keep /war, with sushi and str/atk (few peices of acc) gear for penta pwn.

[Celeal]

I tried /sam out after that patch. Granted I used meat instead of sushi... I was far from impressed by it. 5 str when sam main gets 10? lol 5 is nice but I'd rather have 10 too >.> Acc isn't really needed for me I'd rather have attack >.> Thank's for the offer but I'll keep /war, with sushi and str/atk (few peices of acc) gear for penta pwn.

I don't understand.

You said you would rather have attack.... isn't attack+ food give you +attack? Unless you eat the wrong attack+ food that caps below your base attack...

It is true that Hasso caps at +5 STR for /SAM, but if you /WAR, you don't even have that +5 STR at all...

If you like penta pwn, isn't Store-TP, 60% TP every 3 minute and 10% attack speed up from Hasso let you penta pwn more offen?

You said you don't need that acc+ from Hasso. If you acc is enough, why not go for attack food gear setup?

All I see is contradiction.

If your gear is build for sushi and atk/acc gear for DRG/WAR, I do not expect the same set of gear would work with attack+ food and DRG/SAM.

I would be appreciated if you list the gear and food that you used for DRG/SAM, so we can have a better understanding what was going on.

[Celeal]

With the timer of the Jump (1:30), High Jump (3:00), Mediate (3:00), Super Jump (3:00), I think lvl 60+ DRG/SAM can do the following:

Assume that DRG/SAM's TP return is 16 TP per hit.
Penta Thurst (5 hit) = 16 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 20 TP

When Mediate is ready for use.
At over 100% TP, DRG/SAM use Penta Thurst,
Penta Thurst returns 20 TP,
DRG/SAM uses Mediate,
While Mediate is charging up TP, DRG/SAM hits the mob once (20 TP + 16 TP = 36 TP),
When Mediate is finished, DRG/SAM's TP is at 96% (36 TP + 60 TP = 96 TP),
Hits the mob once more (96 TP + 16 TP = 112 TP),
DRG/SAM uses Penta Thurst (Penta Thurst #2),
Penta Thurst returns 20 TP,
DRG/SAM hits the mob once (20 TP + 16 TP = 36 TP),
DRG/SAM uses Jump (36 TP + 16 TP = 52 TP),
DRG/SAM hits the mob again (52 TP + 16 TP = 68 TP),
DRG/SAM uses High Jump (68 TP + 16 TP = 84 TP),
DRG/SAM hits the mob 3rd time (84 TP + 16 TP = 100 TP),
DRG/SAM uses Penta Thurst (Penta Thurst #3),
DRG/SAM use Super Jump to remove all the hate.

In other words, that is "3x Penta Thurst burst" every 3 minutes.

If the pet is active, that means 3x Penta Thurst + 3x Breath Attack every 3 minutes.

Since High Jump's timer 3 minutes, Jump's timer is half of High Jump's, they fit perfectly well with Mediate's 3 minutes timer. Now that Super Jump has 3 minutes timer, it can remove the hate after that "3x Penta Thurst burst" everytime.

DRG/SAM also has Hasso (10% attack speed up) and Zanshin. Even a miss hit in Penta Thurst there is always Zanshin for second chance. The worst case when Zanshin does not trigger, it only delay a swing or two, and Hasso will speed things up.

Regardless of sushi build or meat build, this tactic should work as long as the DRG/SAM have enough acc. It looks very good to me for TP burn parties.

[raidenn]

Wow you are really expecting to do that many weapon skills in 3 minutes?

[Celeal]

Well, there is another option to split it up:

Penta Thrust -> Mediate -> Penta Thrust -> ... mob dies

next battle,

Penta Thrust -> Jump + High Jump -> Penta Thrust -> ... mob dies

It can be very flexible.

[Grandsummoner_Kairos]

/war will get you more damage as i've found, but sinking mp isn't nice either and won't win you any popularity contests with your party. I'm getting ready to merit on my drg again ( i did category 2 merits before i did category 1). I'm going to fully merit super jump and high jump recast timers because one is 5 secs of invincibility and both do hate removal.

With /sam one of the best things is Seigan and third eye. In a recent party i anticipated 5 attacks and countered one, got hit once and put third eye up again. Really useful for reducing the amount of stress on your magical party memebers. I know when i play smn the most annoying part of partying is when someone is taking so much damage that i can't give them all the buffs i want to. Hasso and Zanshin give a good overall boost to your hit rate and your speed, but meditate is great as well when i want to pull hate to use super jump or high jump on. Honestly the str on hasso was the last thing i looked at since i already have +54 str when i party as drg.


Most of the time if you're 75, all subbing war does is get you killed faster or annoy tanks and mages. Dragoon just hits too hard on its single swings to want to sub war, as well as the fact that crits alone as drg or drk can top 330 damage. I like sam sub. The element of defense it adds through third eye as well as the instant tp allow you to do a lot of things easier.

[nickofearth]

I don't understand.
You said you would rather have attack.... isn't attack+ food give you +attack? Unless you eat the wrong attack+ food that caps below your base attack...
It is true that Hasso caps at +5 STR for /SAM, but if you /WAR, you don't even have that +5 STR at all...
If you like penta pwn, isn't Store-TP, 60% TP every 3 minute and 10% attack speed up from Hasso let you penta pwn more offen?
You said you don't need that acc+ from Hasso. If you acc is enough, why not go for attack food gear setup?
All I see is contradiction.
If your gear is build for sushi and atk/acc gear for DRG/WAR, I do not expect the same set of gear would work with attack+ food and DRG/SAM.
I would be appreciated if you list the gear and food that you used for DRG/SAM, so we can have a better understanding what was going on.

My gear is still a work in progress.

Weapon: Mezraq (also carry Bourdonasse, Kinkobo, Joyeuse*mostly for fun*)
Ammo Tiphia Sting/ Angon (macroed in for Angon)
Head: Wyvern's Helm (sushi)/Ohat (meat)
Neck: Chivalrous Chain
Body: Narasimha's Vest (Wheeling)/Assault Jerkin(Penta) *Also have Scorpion Harness I rarely use)
Back: Amemet Mantle +1
Hands: Tarasque Mitt's +1 (sushi)/Wyrm Finger Gauntlets (meat)
Earrings: Assault Earring/Bushinomimi
Rings: Sniper's Ring/Ruby Ring (can sub in a Venerer Ring if needed)
Legs:Barone Cosciales
Waist:Warwolf Belt (also have Life Belt if i need it)
Feet: Hecatomb Leggings (working on getting Amir Boots)

Yes, I know I my gear needs lots of work.

I said I'd rather have +attack over +acc via hasso. I eat meat sometimes over sushi /war too. Just depeneding on what I feel like doing. I usually use Coeurl Suba if not using Sole Sushi. +5 Strength is nice (that is what capped STR merits is), don't get me wrong, but I don't think I really need it. I usually don't do Wheeling Thrust outside of God Fights which I sub Thief anyways. The Haste is very nice, especially having to wear 4% slow full time until I can get Amir Boots, but I rarely am not hasted and my TP gain is good as is. I would prefer Double Attack (which procs a lot for me, can't wait til I get Sea and can work on a Brutal Earring), and Berzerk via Warrior sub over what I get Samurai sub. Berzerk especially for my Weapon Skills. Meriting as /sam my Penta Thrusts were 500-600 damage as apposed to 700-900, breaking 1k many times with Angon. As Far as hate goes as DRG/WAR ya i get hate a lot but that is what High Jump and Super Jump is for. I am not a big MP sink.

Summary: I prefer Double Attack and Berzerk over Hasso and Meditate.

[LilithAngel]

Wow you are really expecting to do that many weapon skills in 3 minutes?
I've actually done this many times already as /SAM; you'd be surprised how much faster TP gain is with this sub (without even trying). The TP rate is at least *double* what I saw as a /WAR, hands down. Add in the faster attack rate, and fewer missed strikes (thanks to Zanshin), and I honestly don't see much of a reason to sub /WAR unless... um... ...actually, I can't see a reason at all.

I never liked having to hold back as /WAR, and that's not because the tanks aren't doing thier jobs (although some that I've seen these days are kinda lacking, nin and pld both...), but it's becuase of the fact that Super Jump, as great as it is now, isn't always up, and being an MP sink is no fun (and I already do that well enough through Spirik Link [<3 Empathy]). /SAM allows me to do more faster, and I don't have to worry about taking hate or damage, becuase I can now mitigate both, and get away scott free with spamming Penta or helping with a big SC.

Oh, and one more thing, this is just a personal issue, but I *HATE* having to hold the SC up because I don't have TP ready. That was an issue I had from time to time as /WAR (not often, but enough to annoy at least me). I haven't had to deal with that much at all anymore with /SAM, as it is easy to manipulate my TP gain now.

[Celeal]

nickofearth, thank you for your response ^^

Very nice gear. I would agree that you don't need Hasso for more ACC or STR.

On the other hand, if using DRG/SAM, Hasso may let you replace 10 acc and 5 str from your gear with something else :D

Unfortunately, there isn't any attack+ gear in this game that is as good as 25% increase from Berserk at level 75. If the player wants more attack, the most logically choice is /WAR for Berserk.

Even Hasso allows you to replace 10 acc and 5 str from your gear with attack+ gear, Berserk is still better (when it is active).

I think it would be interesting to replace 10 acc and 5 str with Haste/Store-TP gear if you go for DRG/SAM (I know that is not your preference ^^;)

[Vyuru]

As Far as hate goes as DRG/WAR ya i get hate a lot but that is what High Jump and Super Jump is for. I am not a big MP sink.


Lucky, with the subpar tanks I've been dealing with these days even High Jump alone isn't enough to shed enough hate for the tank to get it back. Alot of times I can only either eat food, or use berserk, because doing both will make me the tank, and I'll still have hate issues if I just use one or the other.


I think it would be interesting to replace 10 acc and 5 str with Haste/Store-TP gear if you go for DRG/SAM

Hmm, interesting, I went to check on what +haste belts there where because I only knew about the Speed Belt, and there is a Haste Belt:

Lvl 40, Enchantment: Haste <20/20 0:30/[00:40,0:30] Leather craft lvl 46, earth crystal+light ram leather+waistbelt.

It can be pretty easy leveling a craft to lvl 50ish, so I think that this piece of gear has some real potential, especially if the Haste effect is as strong as a normal Haste spell. I also wonder how long it lasts since the reuse timer is only 40 seconds, something to look into at least ^^


Bah, nvm, I just noticed that the belt is war/pld/drk >.< So much for that idea ; ;
But the idea is filed away for when I try my Gaxe using war/sam or war/thf!

But if that is the case, the only other +haste gear options are the Blitz rings (haste+1%) Quick Belt (haste+2%) or the Speed belt (haste+6%)

I'll have to crunch the numbers later, but I don't know if it would be worth using a quick belt + blitz rings considering that there are alot of good +acc and +str rings/belts out there, even a few +att if you wanted to go that way, and the speed belt is pretty expensive.

I can never remember, the Store TP+ gear, how much extra TP does that give you? For example Store TP+1, does that give you 1% extra TP or .1%?

[Mouser]

For a haste build at 75 at least, you can get:

Walhabra Turban (5%)
Dusk Gloves (3%)
Dusk Boots (2%)
Quick Belt (2%) or Swift Belt (4%, quested)

for +12% or +14% haste.

If you opt for one of the speedier lances, like the Ice Lance+1 or Dreizck, you can pick up the equivalent of about +3% haste (or somehow get a Triton Lance or Mezraq+1). Add in Hasso for an extra -10% delay.

I think delay reduction and Haste are considered separately, so with +12% Haste and Hasso it'd work out to about a 379 delay equivalent if you used a 478 base delay lance or 390 with a 402 base delay lance.

I did the Turban/Dusk Boots/Quick Belt for a while (+9%) but in most fights I do (Merit, Dynamis, Limbus) individual kills are fast enough that I'm not sure it's worth giving up the ATK (sushi), ACC (meat), or STR you can get in those same slots for possibly getting an extra swing or two.

[nickofearth]

Actually I have been trying with my LS for a Swift Belt. 0/2 ;_; Once I get that, and sea so I can start getting Homan gear, I can start looking into a haste set for Dragoon(got the wally world turban but >.> Ace's Helm can I have it? XD). I see about 20ish% haste so far. Which case I would use def. use samurai as a sub for a haste setup.

[Lmnop]

the Delay reduction of Hasso doesn't affect tp, thus it's more accurate to call it "melee haste." HQ weapons are usually a 3% delay reduction, but that is 3% less tp/hit.

Assuming unlimited access to Homam and such: 4-6% belt (I'd lean more towards Swift, though), 9% Homam, 3-5% head (homam -> Ace's -> Wala), 10% Hasso = 26-30% Haste, not to mention a shit-ton of +Acc. You'd also have enough MP to facilitate a Rune Lance (whatever it's called) for the first WS or 2 of the party >.>. If you ate Sushi with said equipment, I'd MPK you.

If you could pair this with a Heca-heavy equip swap for WS, you've been playing this game for too long (which means I love you).

[goblinpimp]

i have more or less a balance of str atk and acc gear. i eat sushi. (elvaan) wat would you recomend i eat as far as meat at this point. i rarely miss without sushi and can rearrange gear >.> i havent lvled sam yet, ad will soon enough cause i want at least the option there, so i dunno about drg/sam other than wat ive heard and read, drg/war can be incredibaly strong and drg/thf has worked for me as well .

gear:

holy lance +1- emp pin -mermans gorget-assuault earring- tortoise+1- sniper ring- victory ring- spicked finger gauntlets- sword belt +1 - SH- raven hose- AF boots- jaguar mantle-sole sushi (atm)
(also use my AF gloves for soloing)
i have a life belt and spike necklace and winged boots and akiji pehti as well and switch them depending on need. chivalrous chain and GK lance waiting for me when i lvl. saving for amemet mantle +1 since i rarely mis even without sushi, i want to take up a outstanding meat product, and just throw in life belt if i need it. sorry its sort of all off the subject , but the food conversation got me thinking again >.< i am intersted in drg/sam for TP but am skeptical, i only really get outperformed by a great rng, and a thf once in a while ; ;:P

[Lmnop]

Sis Kebabi is not only quite cheap, it's (as far as I can tell) the best meat dish for your level. Meat mithkabobs stop being most efficient mid 50s, Sis Kebabi pick up and become about the best meat possible 'til your base attack exceeds 350.

Even if you're not too keen on /sam, I suggest at least leveling it and trying it out. Options help parties out, but they help you more by increasing your worth in multiple scenarios.

If the player base can get to a point where opinion isn't lead by Alla/KI fanatics, people should soon realize that 70+ drk and drg fit well in most hate-sharing situations.

[Vyuru]

Huh, whenever I go to page 3 it puts me on the dark beta setting

We are the Dragoons, welcome to the dark side :P

What +att food would you recommend once your attack exceeds 350? I'm going to reach this stage very soon. Right now I mainly eat Yellow Curry or sushi.

And if you are going to recommend some pricey food, is there a cheaper alternative? Basically anything that is 50K+ for a single/stack I'd really have to think about before using in a party. So for instance Hedgehog Pies which cost 90k or so, are just too expensive for me to want to use them in a party situation.

[LilithAngel]

Coeurl Subs are a good, solid, and reasonalbly priced meat product (found under breads, like any other sandwich) that provide a good melee boost for the higher levels. Check them out.

By the by, if you want to know the average price for anything you're looking for, this website (http://ffxiah.com/index.php) is a good, helpful, up to the minute indicator on the Jeuno AH on your server.

[Vyuru]

WOW! That is an awesome site! Thanks LilithAngel!

[LilithAngel]

No problem, glad I could help.