Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs...

[greydaze]

I'm a BLM75. I have levelled it entirely after ToAU came out. So I know there's a small bit of squeeze when it comes to TP burns. But levelling RNG, I groan inwardly with the BLMs we have in our PTs, and rarely wish to invite myself. Why?

1) Over-nuking. Stop it! Just stop! The NIN tank can't take hate off of you when you're spamming tier 3-4 nukes. The PLD tanks are even having a time at it! I don't care how much you like seeing those big numbers. Yes, we do excellent damage, but you're draining away MP both because we have to heal you and bcause of unneccessary nukes.

2) "Wait for me!" I REFUSE to slow my pulling because you can't learn to conserve your own MP pool. If you're our of MP when we start the fight, {That's too bad.} Learn when to rest and when to nuke, because our XP doesn't hinge on you having it. I will wait for the main healer's MP and the PLD's, but NOT YOURS. And if you're out because of overnuking (see 1), then all the better for the PT if we DON'T wait on your MP.

3) Low Enfeebling Magic. Every level, as long as I levelled BLM, my enfeebling was capped. It isn't that hard! Go to {Besieged}. Throw a dia or dia II during battle. There is no excuse for you to NOT be able to sleep a mob that I could have slept at your level.

4) Levelling Dark Magic. I don't really give a rat's behind what level your dark skill is. You see that robber crab? The one we're hitting for crap? DO NOT cast Bio on it! We need Dia! Clear it with the PT if you're going to use Bio, and use your BRAIN! Cast Aspir and Drain once a minute to raise skill. If you spam Bio on crabs, I'm liable to kick you on the spot.

5) Elemental Enfeebles {Where?} If you have nothing beter to do with your MP than nuke at the beginning of battle, cast the appropriate enfeebles. Don't know which to cast at 60+? Well, that's just pretty damn sad. With Poison II, you get -8 mob HP per tic. With Bio/Dia II, it's 10. That's enough reason right there to cast at the beginning of a fight, let alone the other benefits. I'm not saying every mob every time, but why not on XP mobs that last 1 minute or more?


This is why, dear friends, I hate levelling with BLMs. These problems arise again and again. I think this is mainly due to one thing and one thing alone (aside from laziness/stupidity wen it comes to the job): MANABURN PARTIES.

1) Overnuking isn't possible in MBs.

2) In MBs, everything hitches on your MP pool.

3&4) You don't get to raise skill for enfeebling and dark in MBs.

5) You don't get to use DoT on MB mobs.


Please please please!!! Remember one thing:

Normal XP parties are different from manaburns!

Take this into consideration when you level and I won't have to kick you. I love BLM's, I really do. But I hate the stupid, lazy ones who don't put enough effort into the job to do well.

Thanks for listening to my rant. I hope it can help someone who might be doing the abovementioned.

[Jarre]

As a pld I have had times where it has been difficult to keep hate due to "over nuking" etc. This is normally resolved with a quiet word. Not all blm overnuke or grab lots of hate, most of them can get the right balance, they may grab hate a few times from magic breaks etc, but as a tank I normally can control this and recetify the situation before anything goes badly wrong.

If they keep doing it and ignore your requests, /blist, move on don't invite again. There are plenty of blm out there who do there job well.

[Lambeaus]

What the hell? I really hope you don't hold a grudge like this against all BLMs...

[Murphie]

Personally, I don't think it's ever a good idea to paint the members of a job with the same brush. So you've had some crappy BLM experiences. I've had some excellent ones. It depends on the player, and someone who is going to play one job terribly is likely to play another. Don't hold their poor playing against everyone else who does the same job.

[LilithAngel]

I just have to say thanks for that post. Every party I've been in lately (over the past few months) in a few jobs, most of them have had problems with Black Mages that were Manaburned Babies, i.e. they've gotten used to how Manaburns operate, and try to apply those same dynamics to a normal exp party. Those types have usually ended up dead, killing the party, or kicked outright. And for some God-forsaken reason, just about every single last one of them has had shitty, horrible, "I'm the master of the universe and you will bow to me" attitudes. WTF @ that? These I usually slap silly, drop them on the spot, and /blist them. Case closed.

Not every Black Mage I've known was this bad, but for some reason, this has become prevelant in the past year or so. The OP has a very valid reason for posting what he did, because it may not be uniform across the board for all Black Mages, but enough of them are following this mold that it had to be addressed.

[Kirsteena]

I'd be seriously upset if you painted me with the same brush. Sure I have soloed a lot, but I know exactly how to walk the hate line as a blm - when going over is appropriate, when it isn't.

Course the fact that noone really invites blm anymore makes it more difficult for them...

[Icemage]

That's not really a fair assessment. Bad players exist in every job. Blaming manaburn parties doesn't work - those don't even start until level 54+. There's plenty of time to learn good skills before then.

Besides, who invites BLMs to XP parties in the mid-60+ range anyway? :/


Icemage

[Celeal]

There are still players out there who loves traditional SC + MB =(

[LilithAngel]

There are still players out there who loves traditional SC + MB
I happen to be one of them. Unfortunately, most of the time, when I exp, it's either a rare TP burn, or a 'traditional' exp setup in which either there's no Black Mage availiable (because they're off Manaburning), or the Black Mage has little skill in a normal exp party because they normally Manaburn. I do occasionally come across a Black Mage that actually knows what they're doing, but I must stress the use of *occasionally*.

I can understand and respect those people like Kirsteena and Icemage defending thier job, it's natural to do so, and for this job, worthy of doing so. I truly do. Trust me, I've been doing so for my job longer than most people on these forums have been for thiers; unless you're a Dragoon as well, I can guarantee that.

But that's not the point. The point the OP was trying to make (and I felt he made quite clear) is that Black Mages who use manaburn tactics (and yes, the examples given *are* manaburn tactics and the results of haveing manaburned for significant numbers of levels) in normal exp parties are a hinderance, and that could lead to some of the problems Black Mages *in general* are having in getting 'traditional' exp party invites. It's the few ruining the reputation of the many.

[Murphie]

Well since the OP is so smart, she should realize that the few aren't indicative of the many, and thus shouldn't let her experiences with a few bad apples ruin her opinion of BLMs overall.

[Mog]

1) Over-nuking. Stop it! Just stop! The NIN tank can't take hate off of you when you're spamming tier 3-4 nukes. The PLD tanks are even having a time at it! I don't care how much you like seeing those big numbers. Yes, we do excellent damage, but you're draining away MP both because we have to heal you and bcause of unneccessary nukes.


I don't overnuke, thank god. Moreover, if I did overnuke, I would be made into taru cutlets pretty fast. (which is how I found out why I don't want to overnuke ^^;) Granted, I won't cast AGA-III every second, but if the melees are doing a light skillchain, you can bet your sweet ass that I will Magic burst Aeroga III (which hit for 1163 points of damage. woot woot!)


2) "Wait for me!" I REFUSE to slow my pulling because you can't learn to conserve your own MP pool. If you're our of MP when we start the fight, {That's too bad.} Learn when to rest and when to nuke, because our XP doesn't hinge on you having it. I will wait for the main healer's MP and the PLD's, but NOT YOURS. And if you're out because of overnuking (see 1), then all the better for the PT if we DON'T wait on your MP.


I rarely, if ever have mp issues. Then again, I'm a tarutaru. Since I've gotten my style of play down to a science, it's very hard for me to be less than 200 mp, unless the fight is lasting way longer than it should have.


3) Low Enfeebling Magic. Every level, as long as I levelled BLM, my enfeebling was capped. It isn't that hard! Go to {Besieged}. Throw a dia or dia II during battle. There is no excuse for you to NOT be able to sleep a mob that I could have slept at your level.


I try to keep my enfeebling magic capped as much as I can. This is not to say, however, that every sleep will land on the mobs (unless I ES >> Sleep II, which usually works) So don't hold the same standards for /whm and /rdm.


4) Levelling Dark Magic. I don't really give a rat's behind what level your dark skill is. You see that robber crab? The one we're hitting for crap? DO NOT cast Bio on it! We need Dia! Clear it with the PT if you're going to use Bio, and use your BRAIN! Cast Aspir and Drain once a minute to raise skill. If you spam Bio on crabs, I'm liable to kick you on the spot.


Could you elaborate why it's such a problem to cast bio on crabs? What I usually do is stack Dia and Bio II. I don't really see the problem in this unless Bio heals the mob...


5) Elemental Enfeebles {Where?} If you have nothing beter to do with your MP than nuke at the beginning of battle, cast the appropriate enfeebles. Don't know which to cast at 60+? Well, that's just pretty damn sad. With Poison II, you get -8 mob HP per tic. With Bio/Dia II, it's 10. That's enough reason right there to cast at the beginning of a fight, let alone the other benefits. I'm not saying every mob every time, but why not on XP mobs that last 1 minute or more?


Also....mention that the other elemental enfeebles stack, such as burn >> shock >> choke or rasp >> drown >> frost. The way I tend to think of it is that the first set of three are more focused on how much damage the nuker will do to the mob and how often he will get resisted. The latter three are more oriented toward the melee, so if they're having a bit of a hard time, just throw these three down and it will make their jobs a bit easier. Plus, they all stack DoT, so that's always a plus.


This is why, dear friends, I hate levelling with BLMs. These problems arise again and again. I think this is mainly due to one thing and one thing alone (aside from laziness/stupidity wen it comes to the job): MANABURN PARTIES.


It seems you've been leveling with a lot of blms that don't seem to know what they're doing. Just brush it off. I can assure you, I'm sure the blms will get better as you level up. >.<



1) Overnuking isn't possible in MBs.

2) In MBs, everything hitches on your MP pool.

3&4) You don't get to raise skill for enfeebling and dark in MBs.

5) You don't get to use DoT on MB mobs.



Ugh.....this has happened to me quite a few times. When I was Manaburning off crabs one time, someone casted shock......suffice to say, that battle was interesting and we barely got out of it alive.



Normal XP parties are different from manaburns!



People would have to be really stupid to not understand these words. I would think that most blms would know this, but from your experiences, apparently not. And yeah.....I agree with what murphie said.

[LilithAngel]

she should realize that the few aren't indicative of the many, and thus shouldn't let her experiences with a few bad apples ruin her opinion of BLMs overall.
I wholeheartedly agree with that, but unfortunately, as we've seen way too many times in this game, popular opinion > common sense. Thus why such posts as the OP come to be. The ones that are good never get the opportunity to make thier impression felt because the few ruin it for them.

[Visper]

There are still players out there who loves traditional SC + MB =(


yup thats me, believe it or not I've only ever been in 1 manaburn, I still enjoy the traditional party, wish everyone else did too!! Loved to MB on chains, etc.

Lately been teaming up w/a brd in my LS - she won't take an invite unless there is room for both of us - so I'm actually getting a party like 2x a week now (I also have that I have a brd partner in my search comment - really does help attract invites) But I actually like the Idea of solo'n or trio'n!! I have me (66) brd (65) and a sam (66) in our LS any goo xp areas for 3 ppl goin on in ToAU areas? I know its only 3 ppl away from full party but I was just curious!

[Mog]

There are still players out there who loves traditional SC + MB =(

Interestingly enough, I've gotten invited to a lot of parties as my BLM. :D Unfortunately enough, the majority of them are at caederva mire. >.<

[Murphie]

I wholeheartedly agree with that, but unfortunately, as we've seen way too many times in this game, popular opinion > common sense. Thus why such posts as the OP come to be. The ones that are good never get the opportunity to make thier impression felt because the few ruin it for them.I agree, but do you know why things like this become popular opinion? Because folks post on message boards about how terrible all the [X Job]s are. :worry:

[Visper]

Interestingly enough, I've gotten invited to a lot of parties as my BLM. :D Unfortunately enough, the majority of them are at caederva mire. >.<

lmao same here - actually asked me to be...can I say it...MAIN HEALER!! but hey xp is xp right?

[Icemage]

Could you elaborate why it's such a problem to cast bio on crabs? What I usually do is stack Dia and Bio II. I don't really see the problem in this unless Bio heals the mob...

Bio II overwrites Dia and Dia II. Crabs don't hit hard to begin with, so the ATK down from Bio is a waste of time - on the other hand, Dia II can significantly reduce the net effect when they put up Scissor Guard and therefore increases kill speed.

If you want to level Dark Magic on crabs, Stun/Drain/Aspir.


Also....mention that the other elemental enfeebles stack, such as burn >> shock >> choke or rasp >> drown >> frost. The way I tend to think of it is that the first set of three are more focused on how much damage the nuker will do to the mob and how often he will get resisted. The latter three are more oriented toward the melee, so if they're having a bit of a hard time, just throw these three down and it will make their jobs a bit easier. Plus, they all stack DoT, so that's always a plus.
It seems you've been leveling with a lot of blms that don't seem to know what they're doing. Just brush it off. I can assure you, I'm sure the blms will get better as you level up. >.<

The only elemental enfeebles I ever really bother with are Frost for melees that seem to have trouble hitting (less of an issue these days with most everyone using Sushi or stacking a zillion Acc), Shock if I have an underlevelled RDM or a WHM doing the Slow/Paralyze routine, and/or Choke in most other instances. Drown is a waste of time against anything against monk-type enemies. Rasp is pointless except against maybe Torama with a Ninja tank. Burn is totally useless unless you are underlevelled yourself and lack sufficient +INT.

---

I should note that I'm not defending "my" job. I levelled BLM to 56 and have let it stay there since about February of 2005 (it was primarily for Chains of Promathia, where BLM makes a visible impact in the level 50-cap battles). I may pick it back up one of these days, but it's not a job I'm currently interested in levelling.


Icemage

[LilithAngel]

Preachin' to the quior, Murph. I had to deal with this for several years, long before manaburns even existed; a *lot* longer than any Black Mage (or any other job, for that matter) has ever had to. :rofl:

[Mog]

Bio II overwrites Dia and Dia II. Crabs don't hit hard to begin with, so the ATK down from Bio is a waste of time - on the other hand, Dia II can significantly reduce the net effect when they put up Scissor Guard and therefore increases kill speed.


Well that's somthing that's new to me, even. I seemed to read someone on these forums that you could stack a tier one >> tier two enfeeble. Apparently, he lied. >_< Moreover, I always thought that Bio and Dia were just DoT spells. Didn't know it had anything to do with defense and attack power. Thanks for the insight, Icemage.

I blame this on my parties never telling me these things. x.x

[Karinya]

I try to keep my enfeebling magic capped as much as I can. This is not to say, however, that every sleep will land on the mobs (unless I ES >> Sleep II, which usually works) So don't hold the same standards for /whm and /rdm.

/RDM doesn't help the success rate of enfeebles, it just makes you cast them a little bit faster (which usually doesn't matter). Level, skill and staves are the most important factors in enfeebling success rate (aside from Elemental Seal).
Could you elaborate why it's such a problem to cast bio on crabs? What I usually do is stack Dia and Bio II. I don't really see the problem in this unless Bio heals the mob...
No, that's what you *think* you're doing. Dia and Bio don't stack. Bio II *removes* Dia II, restoring the crab's defense to its normal level.

There are frequently rumors that since patch X, dia and bio started stacking. They're still not true. They've been tested up to and including the merit dia3 and bio3. Casting bio over an active dia removes the dia and restores the target's defense.
Also....mention that the other elemental enfeebles stack, such as burn >> shock >> choke or rasp >> drown >> frost. The way I tend to think of it is that the first set of three are more focused on how much damage the nuker will do to the mob and how often he will get resisted. The latter three are more oriented toward the melee, so if they're having a bit of a hard time, just throw these three down and it will make their jobs a bit easier. Plus, they all stack DoT, so that's always a plus.
This is not quite right.
Burn lowers INT, reducing the effectiveness of the mob's black magic and increasing the effectiveness of black magic against the mob (mainly nukes).
Shock lowers MND, reducing the effectiveness of the mob's white magic and increasing the effectiveness of white magic against the mob (mainly Paralyze and Slow).
Choke lowers VIT (and thereby indirectly DEF), which increases the damage of all physical attacks against the mob.
Rasp lowers DEX, which reduces the mob's critical hit rate and accuracy, but very slightly. It's normally not that significant aside from the DoT.
Frost lowers AGI, which reduces the mob's evasion and parry/guard rate, but again, very slightly. It was popular before sushi, but now shouldn't be necessary. I don't know how much effect it has on the ranged attacks of RNG and NIN beastmen.
Drown lowers STR (and indirectly ATK), which reduces the physical damage caused by the mob. It's useful on a few high-damage mobs like spiders and scorpions (but not pugils, because they resist it very strongly).

Burn and Choke combined increase most damage suffered by the target, which is why the light triangle is favored in most common exp situations. Monster resists will sometimes make it impractical, though.


One other problem I've noticed with some BLMs not mentioned in the original post:

Subjob? What subjob? Some BLMs refuse to heal anyone (even themselves), even between battles when they gain no hate for it and even when they have 2/3 MP while the WHM is out or nearly out. Most either refuse to cure harmful status (very cheap and almost no hate, limited primarily by recast times), or don't know how to recognize and react to status-causing moves. Some don't even use the most basic defensive buffs to protect themselves from their own overnuking - and when they get hit as a result, they don't think to cast anything but Drain.

The reason why people prefer a BLM/WHM to a BLM/SMN is not that BLM/WHM have more hit points and Magic Defense Bonus. It's that they have useful spells that can help the party quite a bit. If they bother to use them.


Pointing out the problems that can be caused by bad BLMs is not the same as saying that all BLMs are bad BLMs, but merely that the OP is reluctant to invite (unknown) BLMs because of the fear that they will turn out to be bad ones. The proportions of bad BLMs are likely to vary from server to server and even from day to day, but I have certainly seen all of those problems among BLMs on my server, and I would be surprised if there's anyone here who can't say the same. People who aren't interested in understanding the job and how to play it well, and just want to do massive damage, can cause a lot of problems for their party.

[Buzer]

I know I sometimes overnuke. I very rarerly get killed tho. Two most recent reasons to get killed: Thunder II -> melees start skillchain -> quick Blizzard II bursted. Result: Mob goes to me, crit, second hit, I'm dead. Another one was since Anticas linked while pulling, paladin accidently takes them and everyone starts attacking the one, I attempt to sleep (resiste) the other one and since I was the only person with hate, it goes after me & paladin wasn't quick enought to get it off. No big deal. (that's like 3-4 levels or so between the deads btw)

Usually, at most of parties, I almost always will overnuke few first enemies (not enough that they will stick to me). I'm mainly just testing how well the tank can keep the hate.

Normally battle goes like this for me: Dia/Bio, Paralyze, Poison, Blind (repeat last three unitl they stick while checking if other people in party get them to stick), Rasp, Drown, Frost, Aspir (start recasting ele enfeebles unitl they stick), Blizzard II, Thunder II. Wait about 5s after recast timer has cooled down, recast nukes. Of course, if I see melees getting close to 100% TP, I will either just stop casting completly for a bit or cast the non-magic burstable one. I usually keep casting nukes unitl the mob is dead. If it feels like mob will turn to me on the next nuke, I will cast Blink. Usually the cast time gives tank enough time to get hate and if it doesn't, I will most likely survive & reset some hate in the process.

As crazy as the ammount of nukes might sound like, I rarerly see tanks having huge problems with holding the hate. If I do, I will wait more between recasts. Also, I don't usually have problems with MP. At one point I did, but then I found how amazing ginger cookies are.

[greydaze]

Pointing out the problems that can be caused by bad BLMs is not the same as saying that all BLMs are bad BLMs, but merely that the OP is reluctant to invite (unknown) BLMs because of the fear that they will turn out to be bad ones.

Thank you for understanding the point of my post.

I am a BLM, and a damned good one. I know how to conserve my MP, when to nuke, and when to do the big damage. I LOVE BLM. But that does not mean I love black magES. The last FIVE (5)unknown BLMs to be invited to PTs I was in, by myself or others, all displayed at least two or three of the aforementioned traits. Do you know how frusterating it is to miss a sidewinder because the BLM decides to cast yet another tier4 to see big numbers and the mob moves out of range?

[Lambeaus]

Thank you for understanding the point of my post.

I am a BLM, and a damned good one. I know how to conserve my MP, when to nuke, and when to do the big damage. I LOVE BLM. But that does not mean I love black magES. The last FIVE (5)unknown BLMs to be invited to PTs I was in, by myself or others, all displayed at least two or three of the aforementioned traits. Do you know how frusterating it is to miss a sidewinder because the BLM decides to cast yet another tier4 to see big numbers and the mob moves out of range? If that is the case, let them get hit a few times before bringing it off. They will learn, trust me....or eventually leave.

[Murphie]

Exactly. Instead of randomly complaining that all the BLMs you've had lately have sucked, teach them to be better mages by letting them get hit if they overnuke, or pulling regardless of their MP if they don't keep up, etc.

[greydaze]

Unfortunately, I dont have the POWER to let them die. Tanks generally do what theyre there to do: TANK. Whether or not the BLM deserves to die. I try to send tells to the BLMs, but they get very uppity. Don't assume I just sit there and do nothing.

[Murphie]

You certainly didn't give us any indication that you did. What else were we supposed to think?

[711rocks]

I still like old sk00l pts, people have been spoiled by ToAU.
Actually, I think the best time for ToAU is when there is no AC. No one ever goes, because of the no xp bonus thing, but like, that's when CM kicks the most ass cause there are no problems claiming mobs.
However back to blms, if people can get tp fast enough, they still rule man. Like I play thf, so say I was in a pt with thf, war, nin, rdm, blm, and brd.
War does at least 500 MA, I do at least 1500 SB>Light mirriors for 1500, blm bursts for at least 1000, and maybe the rdm bursts for like 500. 5000 damage in about 7 seconds decimates most mobs very fast. I know pts with like 4 wars doing rampage is good, and I know it can do some insane damage, but I usually only see about 800ish come out of it, sometimes up to 1200, and maybe 1500 if they like, 2h. This is at 70ish though, and I know with merits they will kick some serious ass. If pts can gain tp equally fast, and both are doing decent DoT, 5000 from the SC is cooler than the 4000 (1000ish each) from the War pt.
Idk, I know that will change for both pts as merits/cursed/homam/etc etc come into play.

[Valerathon]

You certainly didn't give us any indication that you did. What else were we supposed to think?
That's odd, when I read the post, I assumed the intent was to HELP increase understanding of a very real matter. I suppose if you try hard enough, you can make anything out to be hostile when it isn't.

You can stick your head in the sand all you like and say "But not all BLMs are like that. You shouldn't paint with the same brush! etc etc", but the reality is, people who don't read informative forums, or research things, are the most likely to go with their gut. And they have every right to, and if that makes you feel crummy, tough. If they don't follow your logic of "some isn't indicative of the many," what, exactly, do you plan to do about it? Are you just going to insist, over and over, that becasue people ought not to make general opinions about BLMs based on a limited experience, therefor it does not happen? The world doesnt work that way.

And the OP, or me, or others, have no responsibility/obligation to "teach," as you say, bad BLMs, or bad [x job], anything. We have every right to allow bad experiences to inform our opinions, and guide our choices in who we invite. Feel free to improve Vanadiel one poorly played job at a time - I'd rather discuss challeneges like this, as the OP has chosen to do, with people who appreciate the insight (and I apreciate the OP's insight into this subject), and kick the bad apples.

It is unfortunate that you would criticize someone for posting at all, and imply that they are causing (or are even the cause of) problems (like when you post: "I agree, but do you know why things like this become popular opinion? Because folks post on message boards about how terrible all the [X Job]s are."), when they are clearly not, when in fact they're being helpful, trying to increase understanding. That's not a very nice attitude. I think we can all benefit from anyone who thoughtfully read the OP. If read thoughtfully, the OP never says anything about "how terrible all the [X jobs] are." It helps educate BLMs and non-BLMs about a real issue - thoughts on the rep of BLMs in general, and what behaviours that might be contributing to the recent (and in the opinion of the OP: resulting) decline in invites for BLMs (although I have not had alot of difficulty leveling BLM, even in my 60s). I welcome this perspective the OP has brought.

I, and others, have found the OP very helpful in articulating a real concern. So let's discuss it respectfully.

[Murphie]

That's odd, when I read the post, I assumed the intent was to HELP increase understanding of a very real matter. I suppose if you try hard enough, you can make anything out to be hostile when it isn't.Is this irony? No one was being hostile until your post. :eek:

You can stick your head in the sand all you like and say "But not all BLMs are like that. You shouldn't paint with the same brush! etc etc", but the reality is, people who don't read informative forums, or research things, are the most likely to go with their gut. And they have every right to, and if that makes you feel crummy, tough. If they don't follow your logic of "some isn't indicative of the many," what, exactly, do you plan to do about it? Are you just going to insist, over and over, that becasue people ought not to make general opinions about BLMs based on a limited experience, therefor it does not happen? The world doesnt work that way. And the OP, or me, or others, have no responsibility/obligation to "teach," as you say, bad BLMs, or bad [x job], anything. We have every right to allow bad experiences to inform our opinions, and guide our choices in who we invite. Feel free to improve Vanadiel one poorly played job at a time - I'd rather discuss challeneges like this, as the OP has chosen to do, with people who appreciate the insight (and I apreciate the OP's insight into this subject), and kick the bad apples.
It is unfortunate that you would criticize someone for posting at all, and imply that they are causing (or are even the cause of) problems (like when you post: "I agree, but do you know why things like this become popular opinion? Because folks post on message boards about how terrible all the [X Job]s are."), when they are clearly not, when in fact they're being helpful, trying to increase understanding. That's not a very nice attitude. I think we can all benefit from anyone who thoughtfully read the OP. If read thoughtfully, the OP never says anything about "how terrible all the [X jobs] are." It helps educate BLMs and non-BLMs about a real issue - thoughts on the rep of BLMs in general, and what behaviours that might be contributing to the recent (and in the opinion of the OP: resulting) decline in invites for BLMs (although I have not had alot of difficulty leveling BLM, even in my 60s). I welcome this perspective the OP has brought.
Ok, first of all. Wall of text. For reals. I had to really work to read that. And you seriously took to heart the things that I said (while completely ignoring the same things others have said on the same topic), which I don't understand at all. This isn't personal.

I disagree with the OP that there is a problem with BLMs. No amount of lists or large fonts is going to convince me otherwise. Greydaze isn't saying anything new here. "Don't stack this with that, don't overnuke, learn to manage your MP." This isn't news. I understand and emphasize with her frustration, but I disagree with her post claiming that all of the BLMs out there aren't worth inviting, or that the behavior of a few bad apples she has partied with are indicative of why BLMs have been having trouble getting parties.

No matter how "thoughtfully" I read the OP, I just don't see any merit or fact behind her claims beyond the simple truth that some players are just bad at this game. My advice? If you don't like the people you're partying with, then you are free to leave, and not invite them again. You don't have to put up with bad playing if you don't want to.

I, and others, have found the OP very helpful in articulating a real concern. So let's discuss it respectfully.Yes, well I (and others) found the OP not at all helpful in articulating anything more than misconceptions and generalizations about another job. No one here is being disrespectful, and all of us are well within our rights to voice our opinions. Thanks though for stepping in to tell us how we should and shouldn't be posting.

[Jei]

Quite a while ago, I was 57 War I think. My PT set up - Nin tank, War, Drg, Blm, some other mages can't remember.

Our Blm taru insisted on doing freeze MB... I told her not to do it with Nin tank but she kept insisting. Oh well, eventually she got her MB and our mob got stuck to her like super glue. Me, the nin and the drg all tried so hard to provoke and make hate while our other mages cure her like crazy. We eventually voke the mob off when the Blm had about 10-15% HP left.

And Viola, the Blm divine seal cure 3 herself calling all the hate back and die. Complaint no one tried to cure her, HP and left our group :o

Good days, good days.

[Murphie]

I think most BLM go through an "Ooooh Freeze!" phase when they first start getting Ancient Magic. Most of the good ones get over it after they die a few times.^^

Well, that or they only burst with Freeze if they know it's going to kill the mob.

[greydaze]

Unfortunately, this is NOT a couple of bad experiences. There is literally ONE good BLM I know at my level that I would invite. ONE. Not a few, not a handful. ONE.

This post was meant to give insight into why I would be loathe to invite a BLM I don't know. You might say it isn't true, that this rarely happens, but the fact of the matter is that it happens a LOT. a hell of a lot. As in, 80% of the time. Idc if you guys don't like hearing the brutal truth, but this is why melee jobs don't invite you. The bad have ruined it for the good. I enjoy SCing with other jobs. I enjoy seeing big numbers when the BLM bursts. But when the BLM is stupid enough to be using higher-end nukes constantly in battle 1) s/he misses the burst, and 2) even if the burst hits, it's too much hate.

You guys should open your eyes. Offended by this post? It isn't about the GOOD BLMs. It's about bad BLMs and how they're ruining YOUR reputation. I talk to people in parties, it's part of what I do. And you know what? These are the SAME complaints I hear about BLMs I PT with from other members. When the BLM bio's a crab? melee>>What a noob! When the BLM overnukes? melee>>God, I hate BLMs. When the BLM asks us to wait for his MP? melee>>Lol.

This is my first job ever to 75. I love it dearly, and I HATE what BLMs are doing to our reputation. I dislike inviting new BLMs to PTs because of the 5 reasons in the first post. It happens a lot. I levelled BLM completely after ToAU came out, and I did it because I had a good reputation as a BLM. Now, as a melee, I am seeing just HOW IMPORTANT that is.

[Murphie]

So you're saying that it's the BLMs that are the problem, and not the players, right?

[greydaze]

I'm saying that BAD blm's are ruining it for everyone, yes. If I get sick, as a BLM main, of PTing with BLMs because they do the aforementioned 5 things IN EVERY PT, that is a problem. I think we should put blame where blame is due. I know ONE good BLM at this level and I LOVE PTing with him. Aside from him, I have had many bad experiences. Which is why I entitled this, "Reasons I'm Wary of Inviting BLMs." Not "Reasons BLM sucks." Not "You should all die and burn in hell, loser BLMs!" I know there are good ones out there, but how many melee are willing to troll through multiple PTs with bad ones just to find them?

It takes SKILL to play BLM right. A lot of players seem to be thinking, "oooooo, big damege, me nuk stuf!" instead of playing SMART and doing DoT and spacing out nukes. And it is NOTICED by other players.

With WAR, you hit ctr+a, sit back, use a few macros, and WS once in a while. I'm sorry, but melee jobs rarely take the thought that mage jobs require. Even RNG is ctr+a, shot shot shot, barrage macro, shot shot shot, unlimited shot macro, WS. And there seem to be a lot of BLM today who aren't willing to put that thought into doing thier jobs.

If my post offends you, are you one of the ones who do the aforementioned 5? Yes? Then think about your strategy. No? Then don't be upset; I'm informing you how a BLM herself sees you guys from an outside perspective. Good BLMs are really good, but bad BLMs are really BAD. And they taint the playing field for all of you. Bad BLMs are the reason I dislike inviting new BLMs to PTs. Why risk having hate bounce like a pingpong ball and waste the healer's MP on a bad BLM?

[Mog]

I guess I fall in the really good category, even though I'm still discovering stuff about my job at my level.

And seriously, if melee's judge me based on their previous experiences with blms.....then it's their loss, not mine. I can make solo experience. Guess what? They can't.

(BTW greydaze, I'd stop before you offend anymore people than you already have. Many people may think of your posts as condescending)

[Murphie]

I haven't met any of these bad BLMs you're referring to. I have met a lot of bad players, however, and they suck a lot, but I tend to avoid them on an individual basis rather than assume that everyone else playing the job they happen to be playing is also going to be awful.

But that's just me.

[greydaze]

Maybe it's just Ramuh at this level, Murphie, but I have noticed a LOT of bad BLMs in relation to other jobs. :(

The reason for this topic isn't to piss people off, but to inform. I hope I've done that, at least for some.

[Mog]

Maybe it's just Ramuh at this level, Murphie, but I have noticed a LOT of bad BLMs in relation to other jobs. :(

The reason for this topic isn't to piss people off, but to inform. I hope I've done that, at least for some.

I guess I kind of understand maybe why I don't get invited as much as other jobs at my level. I just don't think what comes to the leader's mind is "Ooh! Another BLM is seeking! They think they're better than us melee and they overnuke! I'm not going to invite. I'll show him! {Mhaura}hahaha"

But meh, it just seems you've had a lot of bad party experiences with blms. I wouldn't know about how other blms do inside the party, as I almost never party with them.

[Valerathon]

Yes, well I (and others) found the OP not at all helpful in articulating anything more than misconceptions and generalizations about another job. No one here is being disrespectful, and all of us are well within our rights to voice our opinions. Thanks though for stepping in to tell us how we should and shouldn't be posting.

Don't mention it. I'm glad to help. It makes me so happy to see people use words, rather than snark, to express the opinions they have every right to express. In this paragraph, you express your disagreement with such clarity and precision. Everyone should take note - it's an excellent example of the best of forum decorum (what a Taru-tastic phrase).

Thank you for also pointing out how the script in my post came out all blocked - the forum features have changed alot over 3 years, so I think when I previewed, I didn't realise I lost my paragraphs. I've corrected that.

As for the newness of the information, while the OP's point of view hasn't matched my personal experience, I think it very excellently expresses some possible recent trends that may be a part of what some people are seeing recently in game. I think it brings together, in one place, a number of things that the well-read members of the BLM community might know (and some things we don't, like many people learn all the time about the Bio/Dia overwrite phenom), and proposes that there is a common theme (and an image problem, coinciding with the intro of ToAU) running through all of these tactical BLM missteps.

So, Murph, I have to disgree with you. Not only do I think it's a useful, timely contribution to the community's discussion, as far as I'm concerned, you could sticky it.

[Jei]

Well it's really useless to argue how good "I" am, or "you" are, you know. I know I'm a good one but I'm not going to defend anything. Because, seriously, when I party with other BLM, 90% of the time, they suck.

I don't want to waste my energy trying to defend those horrible Blms. Be proud you're a good blm, is all I can say.

[Icemage]

If we're going to talk about bad BLMs, we should talk about bad players in general.

The problem is NOT with the BLM job. The problem is that there are players out there who never learn from their mistakes, and I see that at every job. It's just that there are some jobs where it's more clearly visible than others (PLD, NIN, RDM, BLM, WHM).

Who can tell if the Monk in your party has terrible playing skills? I certainly can't unless he makes a fundamentally stupid mistake like using the wrong WS. All he really has to do is hit a skillchain once in a while (and if it's a TP-burn, he doesn't even have to do that much). Who can tell when the DRK in their party has terrible playing skills? Aside from the occasional Stun, does anyone really pay attention to what their Dark Knights are doing? Not really.

I posted it up above, but it bears repeating: There are bad players in every job. 10% of players are great. 50% are average. The rest generally suck. That's my rule of thumb, and it holds true at every job I've seen in FFXI. It's just more noticeable with BLMs because they're glass cannons.


Icemage

[Eauijhkuu]

As a pld I have had times where it has been difficult to keep hate due to "over nuking" etc. This is normally resolved with a quiet word. Not all blm overnuke or grab lots of hate, most of them can get the right balance, they may grab hate a few times from magic breaks etc, but as a tank I normally can control this and recetify the situation before anything goes badly wrong.

If they keep doing it and ignore your requests, /blist, move on don't invite again. There are plenty of blm out there who do there job well.

Agreed.


One of the main reasons I just really can't get over the fact of having a Ninja tank in parties is due the fact that unless the Ninja is actually incredible with holding hate (In most instances I've been in, never really the case), When it comes time to close a SC with a TA on the main tank, the BLM grabs insta hate for hitting over 1k damage on a mob.

Whenever this occurs when the BLM is only casting the essential spells needed to debuff a mob, I partially blame the party setup. Is the tank able to hold hate? Does the party have a good hate control?

This really isn't the BLM's fault even tho people will blame him of overnuking. The same results, though slightly subtle, are very unlikely to happen with a PLD tank. This is not to say that Ninjas are incapable of doing it, but PLDs can do it without much effort or tweaking.

And such is the typicalness of party mechanics. Because BLM is basically a job made for Burst damage. To ignore their abilities is to limit the potential of your party in alot of ways.

[Eauijhkuu]

This partially reminds me of the time that a SAM refused to party with my Friend's LV 75 DRG because he kept stealing hate.

[Lambeaus]

Maybe it's just Ramuh at this level, Murphie, but I have noticed a LOT of bad BLMs in relation to other jobs. :(

The reason for this topic isn't to piss people off, but to inform. I hope I've done that, at least for some. If you are ever playing a job at my level, feel free to join my party and play with a good BLM. I know there are bad BLMs. There are bad EVERYTHING. My LS is in Kazaam now leveling our subjobs, and there are few BLMs. I've heard from a few guys that I'm a WAY better BLM than others they have had in their party, and the same goes for the WHM. Makes me feel pretty damn good!

Still, things like this make me glad I have a static LS that knows better and trusts me. People start getting the same attitude you do, and stop inviting BLMs altogether.

[Kirsteena]

This partially reminds me of the time that a SAM refused to party with my Friend's LV 75 DRG because he kept stealing hate.

Hehehe I had a jpn dragoon that out-tp'ed EVERYONE. The sam was good, and he couldn't understand how the hell this drg was outparsing the socks off him...

[Karinya]

If we're going to talk about bad BLMs, we should talk about bad players in general.

The problem is NOT with the BLM job. The problem is that there are players out there who never learn from their mistakes, and I see that at every job. It's just that there are some jobs where it's more clearly visible than others (PLD, NIN, RDM, BLM, WHM).

Who can tell if the Monk in your party has terrible playing skills? I certainly can't unless he makes a fundamentally stupid mistake like using the wrong WS. All he really has to do is hit a skillchain once in a while (and if it's a TP-burn, he doesn't even have to do that much). Who can tell when the DRK in their party has terrible playing skills? Aside from the occasional Stun, does anyone really pay attention to what their Dark Knights are doing? Not really.
I posted it up above, but it bears repeating: There are bad players in every job. 10% of players are great. 50% are average. The rest generally suck. That's my rule of thumb, and it holds true at every job I've seen in FFXI. It's just more noticeable with BLMs because they're glass cannons.
Icemage

This is mostly true, but you left out: it's very, very, VERY, party-endingly noticeable for pullers.

You're right though, most DD it's hard to tell if they are good, bad or mediocre, unless they do something like step on the skillchain. But an unskilled BLM, WHM, NIN, RNG is a disaster waiting to happen. When those jobs screw up, people die.

[Eauijhkuu]

Yup.

I thought my friend was kinda mad when he decided to take DRG to 75.
Cuz he statics his PLD with my THF (We're like PB and J. It's actually hard for me to work with other tanks sometimes, cuz he knows how to quickly position himself for an immediate TA, which I luff :P...but yeah, digressing...), and originally he only took DRG to 40 for BCNM 40.

But yeah. I partied my THF with his DRG @ 68, and in order to keep up with his TP, I had to land bolts. :D

But yeah. DRGs are really overlooked for some unknown reason.
And so are alot of other classes.

[Mog]

But yeah. DRGs are really overlooked for some unknown reason.
And so are alot of other classes.

/nod

Many excellant jobs are overlooked. When making a party, I'd take a thf or drg anyday. This is not to say all of them overlooked present something (broken jobs such as puppetmaster)

[Celeal]

From my experience as a tank or DD, if the BLM or any DD in my party generate too much hate, I would attempt to solve the problem using a big Skillchain + MB:
1. If a melee that can SATA, do the SC + MB at the 1st provoke -> SC SATA on tank at the beginning.
2. If there is no SATA, perform the SC + MB at the mid~end of battle when the SC + MB can kill off the mob.

As a PLD tank and NIN tank myself, I prefer melee(s) + BLM do burst damage around the same time, it is because:

Assuming all DD burst damage around the same time. If the tank can stay on top of the DD that does the highest burst damage (hate), the tank's hate is above all DD in this situation.

If DD(s) burst damage random times during the battle, the tank has to divided up his hate tool to holding stay at the top of hate level. Sooner or later, the tank will run out of hate tool, such as provoke (or other JA) timer is not ready, mp is depleted, etc.

The beauty of SC + MB is the tank can concentrate his hate generation during the brief moment in SC:
1. The tank only need to hold the hate against the DD that spikes the highest damage/hate. If the tank's hate is above that DD, he is above all.
2. The tank can save his hate tools for SC + MB, and stack them. Even if the tank lose hate during SC, by stacking hate tool, the tank's hate should not be too far below the DD. In other words, the tank can get the hate back.
3. Even if the DD goes crazy after the SC + MB, such as chain nuking, Barrage, leaving Soul Eater on... the mob would die very soon anyway.

If SC cannot be formed, just tell all the melee WS at the same time, and tell the BLM to nuke while every melee is using WS. After a couple of battles, the BLM will naturally rest for his mp during the time melees build TP.

In other words, adjust the timing instead of nerfing the damage.

[Theyaden]

If we're going to talk about bad BLMs, we should talk about bad players in general.

The problem is NOT with the BLM job. The problem is that there are players out there who never learn from their mistakes, and I see that at every job. It's just that there are some jobs where it's more clearly visible than others (PLD, NIN, RDM, BLM, WHM).

Who can tell if the Monk in your party has terrible playing skills? I certainly can't unless he makes a fundamentally stupid mistake like using the wrong WS. All he really has to do is hit a skillchain once in a while (and if it's a TP-burn, he doesn't even have to do that much). Who can tell when the DRK in their party has terrible playing skills? Aside from the occasional Stun, does anyone really pay attention to what their Dark Knights are doing? Not really.

I posted it up above, but it bears repeating: There are bad players in every job. 10% of players are great. 50% are average. The rest generally suck. That's my rule of thumb, and it holds true at every job I've seen in FFXI. It's just more noticeable with BLMs because they're glass cannons.
Icemage

I'ld welcome a sticky in each job forum under the heading of job x common mistakes. This would give players checking on jobs they are curently leveling or planing to level a heads up on common errors made that are job specific.

I fear I wouldn't have the endurance to read a complete thread containing the specific errors made by all the combined jobs of vandiel in a sitting plus it would be a pain to sort through such a wide topic in order to find goofs in my jobs. Besides I think we already have FFXI pet peives throed which is about how it would look. (fun to browse a few examples from, but too big to be useful as a guide)

I'll agree there are bad players in each job, but there are also people that are better at one than another. I'm a good blackmage and whitemage, but I'm an average theif. Being average in the one doesn't make me average in the rest, but it means I'll seek information on how to do better. If there was a post titled Problem with theives in xp lately I'ld read it to see if I am commiting any of the common mistakes that I may not have realized (like overwriting dia with Bio as a blm for example). Not all job mistakes as obvious as others

I found this thread to have merit because it contains specifics on what mistakes are made rather than job a is better than job b. It created debate that had sugestions for what enfeebles to use/avoid, some stacking and overwriting info, and what they help with. MP conservation, timing and the importance, and a reminder of overnuking not just costing the blm his mana pool, but the whitemages as well. I've pted with blackmages although they are hard to find on Garuda lately and leveled mine to 40 with good and bad experiences. I personally welcome the ops post since it gives some basic advice that people thinking of picking up blackmage should consider and any existing blackmages that discover their guilty of one or to errors can better themselves.

Side note: I personally did not find the ops opening post condesending and while its containing critism is bound to nettle some I thought it was a good post aside from some sniping back and forth. Medicine and constructive critism are both rarely appreciated by the one partaking at the time given at least I know I never cared for either one, but since it's often useful I've learned to put up with both for the benifits they may provide.

[Valerathon]

I agree with your idea, Theya. Maybe not this post/thread, but certainly the initial content of it (though the additional opinions are in dispute), could form a part of such a sticky. Even if each job forum couldn't have it, it'd be nice to do what we could for this one. Maybe it could start with a draft thread?

[Pteryx]

Complaints, and how they compare with my static partner (I'm RDM, he's BLM):


1) Over-nuking. Stop it! Just stop! The NIN tank can't take hate off of you when you're spamming tier 3-4 nukes. The PLD tanks are even having a time at it! I don't care how much you like seeing those big numbers. Yes, we do excellent damage, but you're draining away MP both because we have to heal you and bcause of unneccessary nukes.

My partner gets his kicks from the big numbers, sure... but he understands that the right way to do it is to wait and end the fight with a big number. He demonstrates a pretty keen sense of where the hate line is, to the point of manipulating it to his own ends at times (see #4).


2) "Wait for me!" I REFUSE to slow my pulling because you can't learn to conserve your own MP pool. If you're our of MP when we start the fight, {That's too bad.} Learn when to rest and when to nuke, because our XP doesn't hinge on you having it. I will wait for the main healer's MP and the PLD's, but NOT YOURS. And if you're out because of overnuking (see 1), then all the better for the PT if we DON'T wait on your MP.

My partner generally doesn't run out of MP. Heck, he rarely goes below half his MP pool. Truth be told, I have him spoiled; he claims it's a pet peeve of his to be below 500 or so. ;) If anyone ever runs out of MP, it's me because some puller assumes that a tarutaru RDM has infinite MP, not a large MP pool with a time-limited capacity to refill.


3) Low Enfeebling Magic. Every level, as long as I levelled BLM, my enfeebling was capped. It isn't that hard! Go to {Besieged}. Throw a dia or dia II during battle. There is no excuse for you to NOT be able to sleep a mob that I could have slept at your level.

{Um...} this is my fault. Staticking with a RDM will do that. He was stumped as to how to catch his Enfeebling back up for a long while until I independently discovered the {Besieged} Dia trick. He tends to also apply this in Dynamis, and no one seems to notice. ;) He doesn't remember at every opportunity, but at least it's finally going up.


4) Levelling Dark Magic. I don't really give a rat's behind what level your dark skill is. You see that robber crab? The one we're hitting for crap? DO NOT cast Bio on it! We need Dia! Clear it with the PT if you're going to use Bio, and use your BRAIN! Cast Aspir and Drain once a minute to raise skill. If you spam Bio on crabs, I'm liable to kick you on the spot.

The trouble with that theory is that Aspir and Drain are only once a minute each; they're not particularly good for levelling Dark Magic with. Furthermore, if there's no effect, there's less likely to be a skillup. Something you sometimes see from my partner for the sake of skilling up is just pulling hate on purpose, then once the mob has been satisfied by hitting him exactly once, using Drain (assuming some WHM who doesn't catch what he's doing doesn't hastily Cure him first). He's less likely to resort to such measures if we're fighting something Aspirable like crabs, however.


5) Elemental Enfeebles {Where?} If you have nothing beter to do with your MP than nuke at the beginning of battle, cast the appropriate enfeebles. Don't know which to cast at 60+? Well, that's just pretty damn sad. With Poison II, you get -8 mob HP per tic. With Bio/Dia II, it's 10. That's enough reason right there to cast at the beginning of a fight, let alone the other benefits. I'm not saying every mob every time, but why not on XP mobs that last 1 minute or more?

My partner... oddly enough, has a tendency to use Burn and only Burn in XP parties, and only for the sake of the INT Down. He knows perfectly well they stack -- uses a full set in Excavation Duty, for instance -- but doesn't. He cites not having room in his macro set for them all. Having been reminded of this tendency, I'm trying to talk him into adding a staff-swap-and-Choke to his staff-swap-and-Burn macro as we speak.

(Oh, and Bio, Dia, and Poison aren't ele enfeebles, but they are DoT. Those ones are my job, though.)


This is why, dear friends, I hate levelling with BLMs. These problems arise again and again. I think this is mainly due to one thing and one thing alone (aside from laziness/stupidity wen it comes to the job): MANABURN PARTIES.

Being a partial static of an RDM and a BLM, we rarely get anything but traditional parties. The only times we've ever been in manaburns, they consisted of people who didn't know how to do it right and who assumed that a single RDM would suffice as a refresher (ha!). The only good manaburn my partner has been in was the one he got into while trying to get an HNM buffer by himself. -- Pteryx

[greydaze]

Pteryx: I want you to know that what your friend is doing is exactly how BLM should be played. Perhaps he might try stacking some enfeebles, but if his better judgement says no, that's alright.

My point wasn't that ALL BLMs do these things, but that these are the most common things BAD BLMs I've PTd with have done. As a BLM75, I have a lot of time invested into the job and hate to see people doing stupid things that ruin the job's reputation. When I lead PTs, I get a lot of tells. And there's one big thing about jobs in this game:

A BAD mage/tank is WORSE than a BAD melee. Why? Because that bad WHM is going to cause a wipe by not healing the PLD sufficiently. People will die when that NIN doesn't hold hate against simple enfeebles or attacks. A PT will have a dead BLM on its hands if he doesn't slow down his nuking.

And a bad melee? A bad DRK will wiff a lot. A bad SAM might miss SCs. These won't cause PT deaths. It is a lot harder to see bad melee players for what they are UNLESS you have played the job to a high level and know what makes a good/bad melee.

I'm glad for you, pteryx, that you have a good BLM to duo with. Big damaged isn't bad in and of itself: What's bad is repeatedly casting spells for no reason other than to see big numbers, resulting in too much hate. I do 1500+ MBs every time I PT with my BLM, but normally this just about finishes off the mob after light/dark SC.

[Icemage]

The trouble with that theory is that Aspir and Drain are only once a minute each; they're not particularly good for levelling Dark Magic with. Furthermore, if there's no effect, there's less likely to be a skillup. Something you sometimes see from my partner for the sake of skilling up is just pulling hate on purpose, then once the mob has been satisfied by hitting him exactly once, using Drain (assuming some WHM who doesn't catch what he's doing doesn't hastily Cure him first). He's less likely to resort to such measures if we're fighting something Aspirable like crabs, however.

On the contrary. Both Aspir and Drain can level Dark Magic irrespective of how much you get from them; in fact, even if you show "0 drained" from Drain, it can level your skill as well as deal full damage.


My partner... oddly enough, has a tendency to use Burn and only Burn in XP parties, and only for the sake of the INT Down. He knows perfectly well they stack -- uses a full set in Excavation Duty, for instance -- but doesn't. He cites not having room in his macro set for them all. Having been reminded of this tendency, I'm trying to talk him into adding a staff-swap-and-Choke to his staff-swap-and-Burn macro as we speak.
Burn is an e-peen spell. Tell him to cut the crap and use something useful like Choke.


Being a partial static of an RDM and a BLM, we rarely get anything but traditional parties. The only times we've ever been in manaburns, they consisted of people who didn't know how to do it right and who assumed that a single RDM would suffice as a refresher (ha!). The only good manaburn my partner has been in was the one he got into while trying to get an HNM buffer by himself.
I've anchored manaburn parties as RDM/BRD. Works fine if you know what you're doing. Certainly not as easy as BRD/x but it's not impossible.


Icemage

[Roah]

you could make a thread like this about all Jobs.

[Srxjo]

but seroiusly if we all thinked like the OP about BLM with all jobs we would play solo all the time, we all have a bad PERSON playing a job and the the only thing you can do is kick them or disband yourself, i remember i've been called a brillent RDM but then someone else called me crap, it really depends on you axpentations (sp?) of th job, just remember all people play different way. sorry if i sound like i'm ranting

[massaranger]

i have a soloution to your problem and that is to start of as a rdm being you have less mp and not as powerful of nuke spells you learn how to conserve mp. And being i dont have refresh everyone as a blm it feels like i have less preasue and i mostly just wait for a big mb vs just blasting with spells.:evil: