AFK Players in Whitegate and Besieged: Why aren't they autologged?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

The lag in Whitegate is totally unpleasent, worse than it ever was in Jeuno. People idle infront of the Residential Area of Whitegate for hours and hours on end causing immense amounts of lag and framedrop while not truley doing anything. The should be autologged by the server after 10-15 mins with no exceptions. If keystrokes aren't being entered at the very least, they have no reason to be logged in.

Same goes for Besieged, but moreover, people under level 50 who do not qualify to participate in Assault as a mercenary have no place in Besieged. They should be removed from zone when Besieged begins and barred from participatiing entirely.

Today Titan had its first Level 6 Besieged and several players could not enter, yet there are at least 50 players well below 50 inside waiting for to begin. Mules with event gear on, no less.

This should not be happening and it makes the experience very unenjoyable. And people can say what they want about a level 40 WHM being helpful but they're still occupying a space a level 60-75 WHM could be doing more good in.

I'm also aware of the option to turn autolog on and off, however, I don't think this feature should apply to Al'Zahbi and Whitegate. Autolog should always be active in those zones

[kiffkin]

And people can say what they want about a level 40 WHM being helpful but they're still occupying a space a level 60-75 WHM could be doing more good in.
Why should a level 60 WHM be there, when a level 75 WHM could be there instead. Oh, and should we count how many merits people have, and of what sort, so that only people you approve of can play?
Leave the sanctimonious drivel out of here, please. If you've got Cure III, can Raise and can keep out of trouble, you're useful in Beseiged.

[Jei]

Since besiege is a non cap event I think you can't really prevent low level players from entering the zone. However, AFK players.... At least they should give you a confirmation box you know.

"Besiege is taking place. If you want to participate, click {OK}. Count 5.. 4.. 3.. 2.. 1.."

[Celeal]

Try turn off all shadows while you are in Whitegate... well, at least it helps me.

[Aeolus]

I was told that if you dont move at all in the 10minutes before besieged you get kicked to Whitegate, is that not actually true then? Its doesnt really matter imo neway when we bet lv5 besieged with 200ppl in the zone on hades on more than one occasion. Of course maybe lv6 is insanely harder.

[Lambeaus]

I logged into a besieged as a level 4 DRG once. LOL, that was entertaining.

[Haggai]

Since besiege is a non cap event I think you can't really prevent low level players from entering the zone. However, AFK players.... At least they should give you a confirmation box you know.

"Besiege is taking place. If you want to participate, click {OK}. Count 5.. 4.. 3.. 2.. 1.."
That's a really good idea! You should suggest that to SE. Maybe more like a 10 second counter and if you don't click okay, it dumps you in Whitegate, much like when I logged into my Mog House on the Al Zahbi side during a Besieged.

As for a level cap, that is a little unfair, as my WHM40 is much more useful in Besieged than my BLM65, just for the simple fact that I can cast haste on my WHM. Sure, I'm lacking in MP, but with the temp items, it's not such a big deal.

Kicking out afk people is a good idea, though.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Why should a level 60 WHM be there, when a level 75 WHM could be there instead. Oh, and should we count how many merits people have, and of what sort, so that only people you approve of can play?
Leave the sanctimonious drivel out of here, please. If you've got Cure III, can Raise and can keep out of trouble, you're useful in Beseiged.

Its a valid complaint many players have. When the criteria for ToA Assault Missions and general content is set at 50+, why should we have mules and level 20 players running around in besieged?

I was actually being generous with my argument, some people think only 70+ should be in there or that it should be a 75 only thing. And if that were the case, we'd lose every time no matter how many merits they had.

But There are also people who are AFK the whole time as a high level job, too, what's even more amazing is when Besieged is over and they come back - they're surprised we've lost the astral candescance. Gee, I wonder why? Could it be because you were AFK two hours and people who wanted to be useful couldn't get in?

Not to mention on the Whitegate side of things, I don't particularly like waiting a minute for things in my MH and the AH to load up. AFK players should simply be removed from these areas to make things easier on those actively playing the game.

In any case, the people who are totally AFK should be removed, I know that sometimes that level 36 DRG is just a guy trying to get the the warp taru and got stuck in Besieged. Still, there is another warp taru he could have used.

[eticket109]

Why should a level 60 WHM be there, when a level 75 WHM could be there instead. Oh, and should we count how many merits people have, and of what sort, so that only people you approve of can play?
Leave the sanctimonious drivel out of here, please. If you've got Cure III, can Raise and can keep out of trouble, you're useful in Beseiged.

I agree word for word. Heck, my wife has a 40 rdm and she does Beseiged all the time. She goes around keeping people cured and raising people. Could a 75 whm do a better job of it then her? Sure, but for every person she raises, there's more mp for the WHMs to use to focus on healing.

They need to focus on the afk people in Beseiged and not worry about the levels of people in there.

[Icemage]

Everyone talks about WHM and RDM in the context of Besieged as being useful, but I dare you to tell me what a DRG40 is going to do there other than increase the lag for other players.

Frankly, Besieged is an abject failure at the design level. It greatly favors specific jobs (mages, tanks), and in fact encourages people to not bring their best jobs to the table, since it's relatively easy to get XP at level 70+.

It's gotten to the point where I don't even want to do Besieged; why should I help other players defend it when the Candescence doesn't do much for me, and so very few take it seriously anyway? Civic charity? I have better uses for my limited playtime than that.


Icemage

[little ninja]

Everyone talks about WHM and RDM in the context of Besieged as being useful, but I dare you to tell me what a DRG40 is going to do there other than increase the lag for other players.
Frankly, Besieged is an abject failure at the design level. It greatly favors specific jobs (mages, tanks), and in fact encourages people to not bring their best jobs to the table, since it's relatively easy to get XP at level 70+.
It's gotten to the point where I don't even want to do Besieged; why should I help other players defend it when the Candescence doesn't do much for me, and so very few take it seriously anyway? Civic charity? I have better uses for my limited playtime than that.
Icemage

LoL so true, so true. except ice you forgot to comment that those dragoons are /whm auto folloing npcs an cure bombing them for points at the end.

At 75 with +40 acc gear an +4 axe merits, i still have a hard time landing hits without food. An thats on lvl 3 forces. what use are they at lvl 4 or higher forces. so i cant see how any other job lower then 75 in besieged would be helpful other the whm or rdm.

But i do agree with the O.P. We do need some way to log players out of the zone for besieged, Not to mention eliminate the home points out of the M.H

I agree with you ICE. Defending the candy an getting it back is useless to me. since ive never really used it..

[eticket109]

I agree, there is a large difference between a 40 DD and a 40 mage in there. Heck, even a 40 blm won't be much of anything but a glorified cure hound. Once again though, I'd rather have the acceptance system in place to get rid of afkers then have some sort of cap on it.

[Jei]

They should devide more Besiege zones kinda like how DAoC has battle grounds for each level range. Make it so that there's defensive forts around the city in seperate zones and have level range corresponse to it. 65-75 defense the main city, 55-65 defend the eastern tower, 40-55 out post, something like that would be interesting. And adjust the amount of enemy to kinda fit the amount of players in each level range.

[little ninja]

They should devide more Besiege zones kinda like how DAoC has battle grounds for each level range. Make it so that there's defensive forts around the city in seperate zones and have level range corresponse to it. 65-75 defense the main city, 55-65 defend the eastern tower, 40-55 out post, something like that would be interesting. And adjust the amount of enemy to kinda fit the amount of players in each level range.

Cause that would be far to much work for S.E to do. They are just happy with jamming alot of high lvl mobs into a small area, an having them spam 1k AoE that drop 50+ people.

Not to mention not that many low lvls are in a zone. Hell if there are i rarely see them, but ever now an again. Mobs dont load up, players dont load up.

Honestly though i really hate the lag in an around the M.H an the A.H. I wish S,E would do something about it.

[Macht]

Eh, given that my subjob is often useless in the Besieges I usually just slap /WHM regardless of what my main is. Since the event seems to regen your MP even the weak little 100 MP or so is pretty effective to getting exp. If you happen to land a hit it's almost like you are getting 100-70 exp for it (Well for me anyways that's what it's been).

Only reason I could see that they made them hard to hit is because it's intent was to keep the monster alive long enough to everyone attacking can get a few hits off. In an event like this seriously think how can EXP effectively be awareded. The only thing I see that is targetable to a specific object is a successfull hit.

So if they make the mobs to easy to hit then you'll have people just destroying the mobs and reducing the over all successfull hits and so take away potential EXP. The only real flaw they had done was giving such huge EXP benefits for WHM's Curing and capping overall rewards of EXP from the event at a way to low of a point.

Doesn't make it worth it when an ENM can give you 3k for 30 min. of effort when this gives you 700 for 1-2hrs. of effort. If the potential EXP was more like 6k-8k then it would be more enticing.

Yeah, as far as a notification the only issue I have with it. Is that an electing to join the fight directly defies the game's story. You know were they specifically stated everyone is drafted. What would be more in-line to the story is if players are caught afk through the event, not assisting in it at all then a corporal punishment is delt to them.

Maybe a negative stats or something they get stuck with until they participate in a future Besiege, have it add up and once they got like 2-3 negative stats then if they are there during a Besiege a different cutscene triggers in which they are thrown in a prison cell for the length of the Besiege event as amendment for their actions. Lol, even an ass would lose intrest after a while if they are getting tacked with negatives stats they can't get rid of easily. That makes them harder to get EXP and whatnot. Also it keeps the game story in tact.

As far as people loitering the game by default is set to log you out after 15 min. of no activity. If they aren't being logged out then the person is expressing their right given by Square Enix to loiter there. In other words they changed their settings to not log them out, an option Square Enix provided and has been there for years. If any of you have changed you settings to not log you out, then you really have no reason to complain. I mean seriously why would your rights be any better then someone elses.

[tdh]

I haven't played in two months, so this may have changed, but originally you had to be Lv.50 to "participate" in Besieged or Assault. Now I know I've been stuck in there as SAM45 once, and actually hit a few mobs for a total of about 150EXP. But we should hold up this Lv.50 restriction.

As has already been mentioned, there's a huge difference between a Lv.50 DD and a Lv.50 mage. Raise, Haste, Cure, and the list goes on, but a Lv.49 anything should just be removed from the zone. On the other hand the same argument can rise between a Lv.70+ job Vs. a Lv.50 job, but it was established that they were allowed under the rules of being a Merc.

The loitering rule is a great idea in my mind. It's been a problem for quite some time, and personally I'm surprised it hasn't been dealt with. I know I can't be the only person who hates having to run into the Mog House in a select few locations only to get bottled up because of people who are just standing there. Who have been standing there for quite some time idle.

I'm not saying there should be a change where we can't go AFK for Bazaaring or other things, but I do like the idea of preventing it in certain areas. Port Jeuno, Lower Jeuno, Upper Jeuno, Whitegate, and Aht Urhgan all come to mind. I've noticed the same people standing in the same damn spot for two or three nights running, each time not appearing to have moved at all. Just move those people into their Mog Houses, or completely dropped their connection.

[Vyuru]

This should not be happening and it makes the experience very unenjoyable. And people can say what they want about a level 40 WHM being helpful but they're still occupying a space a level 60-75 WHM could be doing more good in.

Yeah, that can be frustrating, also frustrating to see a bunch of summoners summoning and releasing summons constantly...

Even while being attacked by mobs......

And when they never accept a raise.....

Or when they DO accept a raise they go right back to summoning/releasing summons...

[BurningPanther]

It's gotten to the point where I don't even want to do Besieged; why should I help other players defend it when the Candescence doesn't do much for me, and so very few take it seriously anyway? Civic charity? I have better uses for my limited playtime than that.
Icemage
Agreed, especially in the face of the fact that, there are other places then the Aht Urgan areas to gain exp(a fact so few forget).

The way I see it, whenever we lose the Astral Candescence, it's another break from that damned Azouph Isle camp.

[Mog]

Frankly, Besieged is an abject failure at the design level. It greatly favors specific jobs (red mages, white mages, tanks), and in fact encourages people to not bring their best jobs to the table, since it's relatively easy to get XP at level 70+.

It's gotten to the point where I don't even want to do Besieged; why should I help other players defend it when the Candescence doesn't do much for me, and so very few take it seriously anyway? Civic charity? I have better uses for my limited playtime than that.


Icemage

fixed.

Yeah, there's a very huge imbalance in besieged that I just don't give a shit to participate unless I'm skilling up my enfeebling magic skill. The fact that my flare attack only hits for 16 damage makes me not want to participate at all, because I for one, do not want to be made out to be a healing bitch(no offense to any white mages or red-mages who are reading this) when my specific role is to nuke.

Astral Candescene is great and all, but it's a huge time sink for me to waste my time with. I have better things to do, like level and help my linkshell to even care about it.

[little ninja]

I only go to besieged as /whm cause im the only one that seems to ever cure me. So why sit around an try to heal 1k hp, when i can hit a few cure bombs to myself an keep at it.

Why make it next to impossible to hit, Why not just up its hp, an stats depending on the mob forces lvl. But instead i see myself struggle with the lvl 2 forces as if they were lvl 5. Its bad enough we have to sit thru 1k AoE, but then the mobs are spamming Eva boost to each other the whole time.

Well considering you only get 500-700 exp bonus. You dont really have to do much to land it. cure a few peeps, hit the mobs a few times, an your almost garenteed to get a few 100 exp. Id like to see someone break down how many cures they have to cast before they can hit max exp for a besieged.

At the beginning of every Event they declare martial law, this can trigger a zone warning. If you draw arms you stay, if you dont, then you warp to whitegate. No point to see AFKERs there. If so we should see them get punished,

LoL 16 for a flare, thats as bad as all these SC i do for 2 damage. How lame is that. 200 lvl 75 with merits an insane gear up the back side losing the candy all the time = something is f'ed up....

[Likibiki]

I tanked/kited quite a few mobs as a level 20 NIN/WAR in there.

Don't tell me I wasn't useful.

Also, for people who say they can't hit the mobs, huh? I hit 2/3 of the time with my SMN and my lowly 234 staff skill, with no accuracy gear, no food... nothing.

Hell, I hit them a lot when I was on Ninja. They don't have big evasion - just lots of HP and attack...

[Icemage]

I tanked/kited quite a few mobs as a level 20 NIN/WAR in there.
Don't tell me I wasn't useful.
Also, for people who say they can't hit the mobs, huh? I hit 2/3 of the time with my SMN and my lowly 234 staff skill, with no accuracy gear, no food... nothing.
Hell, I hit them a lot when I was on Ninja. They don't have big evasion - just lots of HP and attack...

20 NIN/WAR dies in a single hit once your shadows go (or to any AoE). Leave the zone, please. And yes, I will tell you to your face you weren't useful.

66% accuracy with 234 staff skill and no accuracy boost? Proof, please. Most melees at 75 that I know have difficulty hitting any of the main beastmen consistently (and most pets), and I can't touch most of the enemies with my RDM74 without sushi.


Icemage

[Balfree]

How about... if you do stand in besieged zones without moving at all for a certain period of time, your character just becomes invisible, and you dont load for other people unless you move, AND you get automatically kicked out of besieged if youre in that state.
Yeah, as far as a notification the only issue I have with it. Is that an electing to join the fight directly defies the game's story.
And putting a limit of 700 people that can join on the battle to defend the nation doesnt? Its just another concept :\

and when you think about it, whats so scary about besieged when they mention it in the storyline, if nothing really bad will actually happen? i mean, sure we lose the candysense, but exactly what does that matter to the NPCs? =P just a broken sector of the storyline, but thats how it is, promathia is over, but theres still people fighting it right now, makes very little sense, but hey, games are like that :p
just wanted to say that... o.O;

[Macht]

How about... if you do stand in besieged zones without moving at all for a certain period of time, your character just becomes invisible, and you dont load for other people unless you move, AND you get automatically kicked out of besieged if youre in that state.
And putting a limit of 700 people that can join on the battle to defend the nation doesnt? Its just another concept :\
and when you think about it, whats so scary about besieged when they mention it in the storyline, if nothing really bad will actually happen? i mean, sure we lose the candysense, but exactly what does that matter to the NPCs? =P just a broken sector of the storyline, but thats how it is, promathia is over, but theres still people fighting it right now, makes very little sense, but hey, games are like that :p
just wanted to say that... o.O;

The 700 people limit is an unfortunate limitation of technology. Technology limitation vs. intentionaly effecting are two different things. It's the same as why the Chocobo Racing though wanting to be similar to horse racing likely won't be, it's just another technological limitation.

Statement about a player not being helpful in a Besiege that allows 700 people to attend when they are doing something in is quite stupid. You have 700 people likely 10-20 a mob, and on top of NO EXP LOSS. 10-20 hitting the same mob even with high misses are still dealing decent damage. Even if it appears low got to remember claim system is being broken for this event, the very system that determins if a mob will even drop an item or award exp. So of course something else already existing has to be used and the easiest and most convenient is damage a player successfully deals or recovers.

So of course the mobs HP has to be low for it and evasion/defense high. If players were able to easily get 1k damage they'd be hitting the EXP cap way to easily. Any other reductions to damage dealt to these I see being reasonable only for the intent of giving an even playing board were players of equal skill will get EXP fitting to that, then the lack of EXP gainned is only a result of that players skill. First thing people have to get out of their heads is Besiege is not like a normal EXPing fight, way to often I see players go to it aware that it isn't but then start playing and trying to form it being just what it isn't. It's like someone playing monopoly and saying the dice roll numbers count double or half for them of how they choose it to be.

The only problem I see with Besiege is that the EXP reward for the time spent is just to low. Upped to 6k-8k and it would be more fitting. The catch though is if they do that it's to likely to draw more people to wanting to do that event and technology limitations starts getting burdened. Should also add, don't know how many times I've said this now. FFXI has a very specific load pattern as well as what becomes visible, if your system can't handle the number of player models then go in the options and drop the damn max down to what your system can handle.

[little ninja]

Naaa MAcht my system can handle the load pattern, S.E's sytem cant handle the information packets it tries to send. We all already know that this game was built for an around the limitations of the PS2, an the fact that that its information is sent at a speed of 56k. For some odd reasom S.E's servers have a player limit, as well as a zone limit.

Well give a mob high hp, an high def, but WTF is with giving the mobs insane eva. An on top of that, a abilitiy called Eva bost, in which mobs spam ever other minute. But you are right there is not point to doing the event, Especially for me to be effective, i have to pop expensive sushi, Just to deal some consistant damage. Otherwise my well built job, with its stack of merits is still useless. an for what 500-700 exp? i can go /bst, an get that much in a 1/3 of the time.

Macht to hit the exp cap of any besieged you just have to attack 1-2 mobs from full hp to 0. an say the hell with the other 20mins of besieged. An go hide in the very corner of the map, an you will almost always hit the cap exp limit. Why keep going an pushing your limits only to die to some stupid 1k AoE.

I tanked/kited quite a few mobs as a level 20 NIN/WAR in there.
Don't tell me I wasn't useful.
Also, for people who say they can't hit the mobs, huh? I hit 2/3 of the time with my SMN and my lowly 234 staff skill, with no accuracy gear, no food... nothing.
Hell, I hit them a lot when I was on Ninja. They don't have big evasion - just lots of HP and attack...

I could not have read anything more stupider then this. This community tld me i was wacked. Looks like i finally got competition...

[Raydeus]

Besieged needs adjustments in one way or the other, while the idea (of besieged) is good it's obvious by now that the limitations of the system simply cause more troubles than anything.

It seems XI hit it's functional cap with Dynamis, so anything that involves more than 60-100 players in the same area at a given time is just too inefficient to be enjoyable.

Both limitations from the PS2/PC-port engine and the data transfer cap make it pretty much impossible to handle more than 300 players in an area at the same time, just look at what happens in Whitegate now, 300-500 players in that area means a huge amount of lag because of congestion, and all players do is just run around.

So 500-700 players (in Besieged) not only running around but also performing many battle related actions are too much for the system to handle.

I'm sure SE knows all about this, but I wonder how are they planning to fix it while keeping the data transfer cap and PS2 compatibility.

[Macht]

Naaa MAcht my system can handle the load pattern, S.E's sytem cant handle the information packets it tries to send. We all already know that this game was built for an around the limitations of the PS2, an the fact that that its information is sent at a speed of 56k. For some odd reasom S.E's servers have a player limit, as well as a zone limit.
Well give a mob high hp, an high def, but WTF is with giving the mobs insane eva. An on top of that, a abilitiy called Eva bost, in which mobs spam ever other minute. But you are right there is not point to doing the event, Especially for me to be effective, i have to pop expensive sushi, Just to deal some consistant damage. Otherwise my well built job, with its stack of merits is still useless. an for what 500-700 exp? i can go /bst, an get that much in a 1/3 of the time.
Macht to hit the exp cap of any besieged you just have to attack 1-2 mobs from full hp to 0. an say the hell with the other 20mins of besieged. An go hide in the very corner of the map, an you will almost always hit the cap exp limit. Why keep going an pushing your limits only to die to some stupid 1k AoE.
I could not have read anything more stupider then this. This community tld me i was wacked. Looks like i finally got competition...


Games are built with what's called "fuzzy logic" this means the game does a bit of predictions on what a player is likely to do. The fuzzy logic also creates some gaps (Being able to successfully cast a spell after moving as long as you are at the spot were you started the cast before it ends, same with RNG's ranged attacks). So something that SEs system can't handle from the low transfer rate should not impact your system.

If your system is impacted then it's your system, I create asyncronous queries for over 30 databases at work all day long. If you think a computer pauses or skips because of a data transfer over the network then you got it all wrong. With asyncronous queries the only time the system pauses is when it receives a large chunk of data at once and it's incapable of handling.

As for the 1-2 mobs that's true provided that your are hitting more frequently then anyone else. I've had days were I've killed 4-5 mobs and was just under cap because my accuracy was bad for some reason on those days, then had days were it was 1-2 mobs because of good accuracy. The players successfully getting the cap with the 1-2 mobs are obviously better equipped then the rest and that right there is proof of it.

[ikkleste]

just an observation, but i think with time, we'll see more levels of besieged. This will lead to instead of a flow of level 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5 > 5 > 5 > 5 > 5 >....> 5 > 5 > 5> 5 > loss > wait for the candescence to be rescued> repeat, to 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5 > 6 > 7 > 8 > loss > return the candescence (and i think if SE get their way quicker than currently) start again at 1.

We, i think, we are meant to lose more than this, eventually, which will mean that we see more lower level sieges, and more action for level 50 ish people. I think 50ish players are supposed to be able to play beseiged and in time will be able to, but as people are so successful at it we just aren't losing enough yet.

[Macht]

just an observation, but i think with time, we'll see more levels of besieged. This will lead to instead of a flow of level 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5 > 5 > 5 > 5 > 5 >....> 5 > 5 > 5> 5 > loss > wait for the candescence to be rescued> repeat, to 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5 > 6 > 7 > 8 > loss > return the candescence (and i think if SE get their way quicker than currently) start again at 1.
We, i think, we are meant to lose more than this, eventually, which will mean that we see more lower level sieges, and more action for level 50 ish people. I think 50ish players are supposed to be able to play beseiged and in time will be able to, but as people are so successful at it we just aren't losing enough yet.


As I see it too, the levels of the besiege almost seem to point at what'll eventually be effect bonuses. So you survive level 1 besiege anyone with sanction get lv. 1 quality effect, survive 2 besiege anyone with sanction get lv. 2 quality effect, survive 3 besiege anyone with santion get lv. 3 quality effect, and so on till it's lost (Then resets to 1). It's like Magic's: Fifth Dawn converted to an MMO style.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Doesn't make it worth it when an ENM can give you 3k for 30 min. of effort when this gives you 700 for 1-2hrs. of effort. If the potential EXP was more like 6k-8k then it would be more enticing.

...which would lead to even more level 20s and 40s running around casting Dia.

People go on and on about EXP returns, but not IS, the IS you get is pretty good. 700-800 is a lot considering it can take almost two hours to break 1k IS in EXP.

And idling in Sandoria, Windurst and Bastok is totally a different thing. They're no longer high-traffic areas with the exception of the Dyanmis gatherings or Events and even then its pretty mild traffic. It doesn't affect what you need to do there.

If Jeuno is Highpass then Al'Zahbi/Whitegate is definately the Freeport of FFXI, both are laggy, but Whitegate's lag just gets absurd since so many idle there doing nothing, not even bazaaring. I'm sure we've all done it, but it comes at a cost of the game running smoothly. If I have a choice of going to Al'Zahbi, Tavnazian Safehold or Jeuno instantly and I'm in Windurst, I'll OP to Tav in a heartbeat due to the low traffic there. I don't have to wait the extra time for the AH to actually load or deal with network congestion with the Delivery Box.

[little ninja]

Games are built with what's called "fuzzy logic" this means the game does a bit of predictions on what a player is likely to do. The fuzzy logic also creates some gaps (Being able to successfully cast a spell after moving as long as you are at the spot were you started the cast before it ends, same with RNG's ranged attacks). So something that SEs system can't handle from the low transfer rate should not impact your system.
If your system is impacted then it's your system, I create asyncronous queries for over 30 databases at work all day long. If you think a computer pauses or skips because of a data transfer over the network then you got it all wrong. With asyncronous queries the only time the system pauses is when it receives a large chunk of data at once and it's incapable of handling.
As for the 1-2 mobs that's true provided that your are hitting more frequently then anyone else. I've had days were I've killed 4-5 mobs and was just under cap because my accuracy was bad for some reason on those days, then had days were it was 1-2 mobs because of good accuracy. The players successfully getting the cap with the 1-2 mobs are obviously better equipped then the rest and that right there is proof of it.

Then i can see why Besieged isnt so loved. My system is by far alot better then anything Gateway an Dell could ever build. or anything one could by from a local shop. An most of my system is built to the same specs ALienware would use. an sell for a ridiculous price. So if im experiencing some problems while in Besieged. id hate to see what everyone else is doing. Especiallly those players stuck on a Ps2.

The reason why i cant believe you macht is because i play with a watered down version. No weather effects, shadows. I turned everything on so i cant see actions i do, or actions others do. i have no chat running across my screen except for party. As well as a host of others. An yet i still experience lag problems in Besieged, or areas like D.A.

Lets face it, The FFXI servers were built in the mid 90's. THey cant handle large numbers. Its not my system, its the system im recieving data from. Yeah i know you work with sucha n such, are they 10 years out of date, which in computer years would equal 15 years. Nowadays i read about how new gaming servers can handle 10k-20k players. Thats not including the enviorments, or mobs. An i think back to me in D.A with 20 darters an 75 players freezing up.

[Icemage]

Games are built with what's called "fuzzy logic" this means the game does a bit of predictions on what a player is likely to do. The fuzzy logic also creates some gaps (Being able to successfully cast a spell after moving as long as you are at the spot were you started the cast before it ends, same with RNG's ranged attacks). So something that SEs system can't handle from the low transfer rate should not impact your system.

Macht, your ability to spew completely off-base technobabble that you don't understand never ceases to amaze me. :P

Definition for fuzzy logic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic)

People don't use fuzzy logic in game programming. Game programmers and designers sometimes use hueristics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hueristic_%28computer_science%29) to anticipate player actions and determine approximate computational loads, but that's a completely unrelated topic to fuzzy logic, and in any case, neither one bears much impact on your system performance aside from an overall design viewpoint.


If your system is impacted then it's your system, I create asyncronous queries for over 30 databases at work all day long. If you think a computer pauses or skips because of a data transfer over the network then you got it all wrong. With asyncronous queries the only time the system pauses is when it receives a large chunk of data at once and it's incapable of handling.

System halts and pauses in asynchronous database programming most often occur when many users try to access and alter the same data simultaneously, causing resource lock (for the majority of readers who don't understand the techno lingo, you can treat it like a little old lady crossing the freeway and locking up traffic until she's done).


As for the 1-2 mobs that's true provided that your are hitting more frequently then anyone else. I've had days were I've killed 4-5 mobs and was just under cap because my accuracy was bad for some reason on those days, then had days were it was 1-2 mobs because of good accuracy. The players successfully getting the cap with the 1-2 mobs are obviously better equipped then the rest and that right there is proof of it.
I don't think anyone knows exactly how the XP formula is calculated outside of S-E. In any case, it doesn't much matter considering how little XP is gained.


Icemage

[Macht]

Then i can see why Besieged isnt so loved. My system is by far alot better then anything Gateway an Dell could ever build. or anything one could by from a local shop. An most of my system is built to the same specs ALienware would use. an sell for a ridiculous price. So if im experiencing some problems while in Besieged. id hate to see what everyone else is doing. Especiallly those players stuck on a Ps2.
The reason why i cant believe you macht is because i play with a watered down version. No weather effects, shadows. I turned everything on so i cant see actions i do, or actions others do. i have no chat running across my screen except for party. As well as a host of others. An yet i still experience lag problems in Besieged, or areas like D.A.
Lets face it, The FFXI servers were built in the mid 90's. THey cant handle large numbers. Its not my system, its the system im recieving data from. Yeah i know you work with sucha n such, are they 10 years out of date, which in computer years would equal 15 years. Nowadays i read about how new gaming servers can handle 10k-20k players. Thats not including the enviorments, or mobs. An i think back to me in D.A with 20 darters an 75 players freezing up.


Fair enough by the same token, I can't believe you either. Working with a system I've maticulously built and made sure parts were very compatible with eachother, I can play Besiege with full effects and have no lag problems. Well until recently but I stupidly did got on an installing spree so I'm sure a program I installed is the culprit of my degraded performance.

It becomes very painfully clear to me when I run this game on 3 systems of different quality and have seen how Besiege works on them. Another out-of-date PC I have in it's 12th year that I built needs me to strip out all extra graphical stuff because it can't handle it. If your system has problems I would question it's component and their compatibility along with potential software that's on the system.

[Raydeus]

(for the majority of readers who don't understand the techno lingo, you can treat it like a little old lady crossing the freeway and locking up traffic until she's done).

This phrase just made my day much more fun. Since I can't use emoticons here all I can say is ROFL.

[Vyuru]

Also, for people who say they can't hit the mobs, huh? I hit 2/3 of the time with my SMN and my lowly 234 staff skill, with no accuracy gear, no food... nothing.

As a level 67 dragoon with capped polearm, (forget what the cap is), and 7+5+3+5+5+10 = +35 acc in gear, AND eating sushi (squid or sole), and my +acc job trait, I can hit the beastmen mobs under 50% of the time, I want to say my accuracy is more in the 40%+ region, which as a melee is unacceptable.

This was against a level 5 undead swarm BTW, I'm sure the Mamool Jas are even more evasive.

I can hit the pets just fine, they are more like high VT-IT exp mobs to me, but if I can fight a pet how much easier can a merited level 75 kill one?

A level 50 or below melee is useless with a very few exceptions. I can do more damage to the undead swarms by going in as drg/rdm and cure bombing the skeletons, though after the magic update this doesn't seem quite as effective and I am seeing alot of 0s now when I cast Cure III on undead.

A lower level mage IS useful because they can stay on the sidelines and cure the people there, while the mages with more hp/mp can be in the thick of the battle curing the tanks.

And besieged really isn't worth the time for me right now. yeah it's fun, but the outcome of besieged does not hinge on whether I participate or not, and since besieged can last for up to 2 hours, I am not inclined to stay that long, if I know a besieged is wrapping up, and I could use some exp/IS, I'll just pop in during the last 15 minutes, toss some cure IIIs and buffs around, and recieve max rewards.

I do agree that afk players should not be in there taking up space that a person who is there can use, I don't agree though with a level requirement for besieged, but SE should adjust it somehow so that everyone can contribute.

I rather liked the level appropriate fort idea that someone had posted, everyone gets put into a fort (say one fort is for levels 1-10 and so on) and the beastmen have to get past the forts before they can go into the city, once they are in the city besieged happens like normal, but while in the forts you are fighting in a level specific place where you can actually contribute.

[Macht]

Macht, your ability to spew completely off-base technobabble that you don't understand never ceases to amaze me. :P
Definition for fuzzy logic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic)
People don't use fuzzy logic in game programming. Game programmers and designers sometimes use hueristics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hueristic_%28computer_science%29) to anticipate player actions and determine approximate computational loads, but that's a completely unrelated topic to fuzzy logic, and in any case, neither one bears much impact on your system performance aside from an overall design viewpoint.
System halts and pauses in asynchronous database programming most often occur when many users try to access and alter the same data simultaneously, causing resource lock (for the majority of readers who don't understand the techno lingo, you can treat it like a little old lady crossing the freeway and locking up traffic until she's done).
I don't think anyone knows exactly how the XP formula is calculated outside of S-E. In any case, it doesn't much matter considering how little XP is gained.
Icemage

Yes, I do tend to use wrong terminology at times. Quite frankly it's a result of it constantly being used wrong around me. I do not catch when I do it so my mistake on that. Very cheap shot to take, but whatever.

And no asyncronous queries are pass-through commands. They do not lock resources because they are telling the system to make a temporary image/copy of the resources. A bridge for the little lady to cross, not record locking which yes does slow everything down.

[Dyvid]

SE has already stated they are not going to have a level limit in besieged in a recent interview. They want everyone to be able to enjoy it. As far as the AFK ppl in whitegate you'll just have to learn to deal with it. Until SE opens up the Imperial Whitegate we only have 2 big town zones to run around in. Try moving your home point from the MH to the fountain in the middle.

[Icemage]

Yes, I do tend to use wrong terminology at times. Quite frankly it's a result of it constantly being used wrong around me. I do not catch when I do it so my mistake on that. Very cheap shot to take, but whatever.
It wouldn't kill you to take 15 seconds to double check your terminology when you talk about technological topics, especially when trying to draw analogies to loosely related areas like game programming that you're not well-versed in. :)


And no asyncronous queries are pass-through commands. They do not lock resources because they are telling the system to make a temporary image/copy of the resources. A bridge for the little lady to cross, not record locking which yes does slow everything down.
[technobabble on]
Are you sure you do this for a living? Because I do, and none of your statements make any sense.

Pass-through queries on a server don't automatically replicate data. In fact, the exact opposite is true - they instruct the server to perform the operation server-side and pass the results back to the client, as opposed to sending a copy of the data to the client for computation. Using a pass-through query versus a client-side query doesn't really affect whether or not you have record locking, it just changes the conditions under which the information is locked.

You can lock records just as easily with a pass-through query as with a client-side query, depending on what sort of locking scheme you're using. The main differences are whether you choose to sacrifice network bandwidth and client processor time, or sacrifice server computational power.

This isn't to say you can't use an asynchronous query to replicate data server-side and perform your computations on the replicated set, but that functionality is not implied in a pass-through query.
[/technobabble off]

---

Long story short with respect to Besieged:

Yes, the lag in Besieged has a lot to do with the number of players in the zone.

System performance is, of course, always an issue. If your system isn't at least "average", particularly for a PC that's weak in the video card department, you'll see a lot of lag as your computer fights to stay on top of what's happening. But the PS2 and XBox360 have a standard amount of computing power, and the game is designed to run smoothly on that hardware.

If I had to guess, I'd say that Square-Enix has placed a hard cap on the amount of information the server sends to each player, and that limit is regularly exceeded, which causes the servers to "drop" data like damage notifications, special effect notifications, or pretty much anything else. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen myself just drop dead in the middle of nowhere, with nothing in the damage logs to indicate what killed me. I run a very close to cutting-edge system, with a solid broadband connection. The bottleneck in Besieged, for me, is not my computer, nor my internet connection.

That leaves the FFXI servers as the root cause; many times I'll start attempting to cast a spell, not see any effect on screen or in the log, but attempting to repeat the action a second later gives me the "You can't do that right now." message which indicates that the server is already aware that I'm casting the spell.

It's not really a limit on the PS2 so much as the requirement that the game run acceptably for users on 56K dialup that hoses the process the most. You simply can't transfer that much information without overloading a dialup user (causing their modem buffer to overload and eventually disconnect them from their ISP).


Icemage

[Macht]

It wouldn't kill you to take 15 seconds to double check your terminology when you talk about technological topics, especially when trying to draw analogies to loosely related areas like game programming that you're not well-versed in. :)
[technobabble on]
Are you sure you do this for a living? Because I do, and none of your statements make any sense.
Pass-through queries on a server don't automatically replicate data. In fact, the exact opposite is true - they instruct the server to perform the operation server-side and pass the results back to the client, as opposed to sending a copy of the data to the client for computation. Using a pass-through query versus a client-side query doesn't really affect whether or not you have record locking, it just changes the conditions under which the information is locked.
You can lock records just as easily with a pass-through query as with a client-side query, depending on what sort of locking scheme you're using. The main differences are whether you choose to sacrifice network bandwidth and client processor time, or sacrifice server computational power.
This isn't to say you can't use an asynchronous query to replicate data server-side and perform your computations on the replicated set, but that functionality is not implied in a pass-through query.
[/technobabble off]
---
Long story short with respect to Besieged:
Yes, the lag in Besieged has a lot to do with the number of players in the zone.
System performance is, of course, always an issue. If your system isn't at least "average", particularly for a PC that's weak in the video card department, you'll see a lot of lag as your computer fights to stay on top of what's happening. But the PS2 and XBox360 have a standard amount of computing power, and the game is designed to run smoothly on that hardware.
If I had to guess, I'd say that Square-Enix has placed a hard cap on the amount of information the server sends to each player, and that limit is regularly exceeded, which causes the servers to "drop" data like damage notifications, special effect notifications, or pretty much anything else. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen myself just drop dead in the middle of nowhere, with nothing in the damage logs to indicate what killed me. I run a very close to cutting-edge system, with a solid broadband connection. The bottleneck in Besieged, for me, is not my computer, nor my internet connection.
That leaves the FFXI servers as the root cause; many times I'll start attempting to cast a spell, not see any effect on screen or in the log, but attempting to repeat the action a second later gives me the "You can't do that right now." message which indicates that the server is already aware that I'm casting the spell.
It's not really a limit on the PS2 so much as the requirement that the game run acceptably for users on 56K dialup that hoses the process the most. You simply can't transfer that much information without overloading a dialup user (causing their modem buffer to overload and eventually disconnect them from their ISP).
Icemage


Yes, I do this for a living. I don't recheck my stuff because I don't to often have the time since I just check on here between the times the system completes it's tasks or requests additional info from me. When I write something big it takes a while to get it published due to that. I may not explained it so well but it seems you were getting at what I was saying, to an extent.

For not seeing the data that is not an issue with Square Enix directly. It's an issue in the manner of the data beind transfered over the internet. As it's been established before instead of the slower transfer rate of a TCP connection the game establishes a UDP connection for play. This connection is tremendously faster but doesn't care at all about lost data, since everything to our character is server side lost data to the player means a potential message that might not show up or potential command not being received.

In either case that only accounts for missing data, in no other way then seeing a message stating "You started a spell" or related information. Outside of that how the game operates is quite often your system.

Just to point out, you realize in debates attacking the person directly is just so politcal like and degrading. It's just a very cheap manner to take.

[Icemage]

With the lag in Besieged, it's not a TCP vs. UDP issue, though. The packets are not "lost UDP packets", they are literally are not being sent. Square-Enix could flood me with UDP packets and chances are I'd get them all - that's why normal battle messages show up as regular as the sun under normal circumstances. If it were an issue with the packets being sent UDP, you'd see dialup users with issues, but broadband users on good computers would have no problems.

For Besieged, what I think is happening is that the servers are realizing that they're sending the maximum amount of allowed data to each player and simply not sending anything until the server determines that a 56k player on that connection could reliably stay connected.


Icemage

[Macht]

With the lag in Besieged, it's not a TCP vs. UDP issue, though. The packets are not "lost UDP packets", they are literally are not being sent. Square-Enix could flood me with UDP packets and chances are I'd get them all - that's why normal battle messages show up as regular as the sun under normal circumstances. If it were an issue with the packets being sent UDP, you'd see dialup users with issues, but broadband users on good computers would have no problems.
For Besieged, what I think is happening is that the servers are realizing that they're sending the maximum amount of allowed data to each player and simply not sending anything until the server determines that a 56k player on that connection could reliably stay connected.
Icemage


Yes, they could flood your system but it seems you are forgetting that from your network to Square-Enix's servers you got more then just your ISP in-between were packets can get lost. I would bet that connections in Japan don't see this issue of lost UDPs as badly just because of being closer to the source. Unless you have single dedicate line that goes from your house all the way to Square Enix (Technically not even in the internet then), there is no way that you wouldn't of lost a UDP. Either a message once in a while (provided you have your logs open to see all messages) or a command you thought you did but wasn't sure and redid.

[eticket109]

you guys need to get a room and 'work out' some of this tension >.>

[Icemage]

The amount of data that S-E sends to a typical user does not overwhelm the UDP protocol. Not even close.

My proof: Every once in a blue moon, I've had a gateway or other internet hop hiccup and delay my connection, even in combat. When it happens in combat, everything will look fine except that I'll stop seeing any damage messages - but when it "unfreezes" I get virtually all, if not all, of the combat log messages that have been sent by the server since it started freezing. Not only does the game engine handle it smoothly (the text scrolls by at lightning speed, but it does get tracked), but it even does a lot of the animations at high speed - it's like a temporary fast-forward in the game as it catches up.

There's no evidence to suggest that the UDP packet usage for combat data is what is causing the missing log entries in Besieged. If they were merely stray UDP packets, we'd get them sooner or later, but the effect is both consistent and repeatable, which suggests that it's a different cause.


Icemage

[Macht]

Not sure if it would work, he and I seem to have conflicts on more then just this. Probably both of us view a cup with water at a halfway point differently too.

The amount of data that S-E sends to a typical user does not overwhelm the UDP protocol. Not even close.
My proof: Every once in a blue moon, I've had a gateway or other internet hop hiccup and delay my connection, even in combat. When it happens in combat, everything will look fine except that I'll stop seeing any damage messages - but when it "unfreezes" I get virtually all, if not all, of the combat log messages that have been sent by the server since it started freezing. Not only does the game engine handle it smoothly (the text scrolls by at lightning speed, but it does get tracked), but it even does a lot of the animations at high speed - it's like a temporary fast-forward in the game as it catches up.
There's no evidence to suggest that the UDP packet usage for combat data is what is causing the missing log entries in Besieged. If they were merely stray UDP packets, we'd get them sooner or later, but the effect is both consistent and repeatable, which suggests that it's a different cause.
Icemage

No, once a UDP goes stray it never reaches a destination and neither side cares if it's got there or not. It is not like a TCP session, the TCP sessions are meticulous in ensuring they get all data. That hiccup you are getting is a result of something else entirely different, an array of possibilities well beyond just internet.

In fact what you described is a recent thing mine started doing after an installation spree I shouldn't of done. My hiccup issue there I'm very certain is due to a program I've installed.

Should add, you want evidence: User Datagram Protocol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_Datagram_Protocol)

Lacking reliability, UDP applications must generally be willing to accept some loss, errors or duplication. Some applications such as TFTP may add rudimentary reliability mechanisms into the application layer as needed.

I may mess up the technicals on databases, but that's largely due to the IT group I have to learn from. However try and shit me about Internet is just rediculous because I have Cisco Certifications for Networks. Anyway done before it gets way out of hand.

[little ninja]

Fair enough by the same token, I can't believe you either. Working with a system I've maticulously built and made sure parts were very compatible with eachother, I can play Besiege with full effects and have no lag problems. Well until recently but I stupidly did got on an installing spree so I'm sure a program I installed is the culprit of my degraded performance.
It becomes very painfully clear to me when I run this game on 3 systems of different quality and have seen how Besiege works on them. Another out-of-date PC I have in it's 12th year that I built needs me to strip out all extra graphical stuff because it can't handle it. If your system has problems I would question it's component and their compatibility along with potential software that's on the system.

If that was the case id be dealing with this problem on a regular basis. Instead its only at certain times. Such as being in a crowded area. D.A during pops, Besieged. Its not like im experiencing this kind of stuff running thru V.D or anything.

If it was my computer some of my programs would have slow problems, But i can run a bunch of programs an easily go between them without troubles.

As for programs, FFXI was the last thing i installed on my system. So the only thing now is windows updates, FFXi updates, an virus updates. I have way to much mem, i have way to much H.D an im running at 3.8ghz. When i get home i can check the Vid card. but thats no crappy thing either.

I still think S.E servers are one of the main causes of it. Not to mention it has already been stated they S.E kept back its games limitations because it was ment for the PS2 systems. Thus a large 56k user base.

Its labeled a gaming machine by industry standards. Since everything in it was at one time the same stuff alienware put in there gaming machines. Even to make sure everything was up an running correctly i took it to a local computer shop. they even complimented me on the hardware, an the fact everything ran the way it was suppose to. Then they offered me a job. But thats the one thing i was afraid of, the software conflicting with the hardware.

[Icemage]

No, once a UDP goes stray it never reaches a destination and neither side cares if it's got there or not. It is not like a TCP session, the TCP sessions are meticulous in ensuring they get all data. That hiccup you are getting is a result of something else entirely different, an array of possibilities well beyond just internet.

Should add, you want evidence: User Datagram Protocol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_Datagram_Protocol)
I may mess up the technicals on databases, but that's largely due to the IT group I have to learn from. However try and shit me about Internet is just rediculous because I have Cisco Certifications for Networks. Anyway done before it gets way out of hand.
That's the thing though - UDP, while it does not guarantee delivery, does not go out of its way to hinder it either. Yes, you do lose UDP packets quite often (~1%+), particularly when crossing large geographic distances - but given the way that FFXI renders the chatlog almost flawlessly the other 99.9% of the time, I'm betting the overlying protocol structure implements some top-level verification to make sure data was received, and requests an update if it isn't received in a timely fashion (most time-critical applications that use UDP as their primary data pipeline do this - it is one of the essential elements in network programming, particularly for online games).

This suggests that one of two things is happening. Either Square-Enix is deliberately choking the output to avoid killing 56K connections, or their hardware (or some connection point between) is dropping loads of packets because of network congestion. I find the first case to be more likely than the latter, as the second case would result in many 56K users complaining that Besieged invariably kicks them off of their connection due to data flooding, but I'll grant the possibility that it is happening and they simply aren't saying anything because they're used to it...

In either case, most players have more than enough under the hood to deal with the incoming data software-wise. The fact is the packets simply aren't arriving, not that the systems aren't handling the incoming data.


Icemage

[Macht]

That's the thing though - UDP, while it does not guarantee delivery, does not go out of its way to hinder it either. Yes, you do lose UDP packets quite often (~1%+), particularly when crossing large geographic distances - but given the way that FFXI renders the chatlog almost flawlessly the other 99.9% of the time, I'm betting the overlying protocol structure implements some top-level verification to make sure data was received, and requests an update if it isn't received in a timely fashion (most time-critical applications that use UDP as their primary data pipeline do this - it is one of the essential elements in network programming, particularly for online games).
This suggests that one of two things is happening. Either Square-Enix is deliberately choking the output to avoid killing 56K connections, or their hardware (or some connection point between) is dropping loads of packets because of network congestion. I find the first case to be more likely than the latter, as the second case would result in many 56K users complaining that Besieged invariably kicks them off of their connection due to data flooding, but I'll grant the possibility that it is happening and they simply aren't saying anything because they're used to it...
In either case, most players have more than enough under the hood to deal with the incoming data software-wise. The fact is the packets simply aren't arriving, not that the systems aren't handling the incoming data.
Icemage


Can agree with that. Except for the part stating that UDP packet loss is only ~0.1% that's way to low to quantify UDPs as being unreliable. Especially when I check the routers logs and see them having at least a 10% packet loss during moderat traffic. With heavy traffic it has to be at least like 30% loss. The 56K users wouldn't be complaining because like for I don't know how many times now I've stated UDP packets when lost the routers simply just trashes them. So there is no data flooding, the more likely result would end up being high data loss. This would mean objects not appearing, chatlog not receiving all the info, animations not being executed, or even motion blinking (Character is in one location and suddenly appears in another, example character is to the right of you and suddenly is to the left of you, this game tries to compensate for this one and if you've .dat modding with motions you'd understand how).

Now when a server lags on sending data or your system lags on the data then you get this rapid motion. That should be obvious as to why. Yes, the client side could be setup to make sure it gets certain data. Seriously though evaluating all the data you get which really is more of a priority. Info that you hit, which most of the time this data is only extreemly important to parsing. Out side of parsing the only other time it's ever even noted is when damage of a high number or intresting event occured. To me this makes that data low priority I wouldn't even bother having the client notify to server if it seems like a damage message got dropped.

Besides that it's wasted speed on a UDP to have it doing packet checks, so if I'm going to waste speed I'd want it to be for something more important. That means to me the more important would be user seeing their character, communication from other players, TP, HP, MP, mobs HP, and mob itself. Since game works by zones, a default appearance can be handled client side so sending data to the client on what zone to load is only needed when first entering. Outside of that any other data is just relivance, if the client gets then great if not then no skin off my nose.

[little ninja]

LMAO the problem ever changes between yous two doesnt it. lol

[Mog]

i can't even muster myself to read it all. It's just a game!!! x.x I feel like I'm taking the SAT all over again when I read your posts.

[Macht]

LMAO the problem ever changes between yous two doesnt it. lol


Ehh, like I said he and I probably view at opposite ends. One of us seeing a half full cup and other as a half empty cup.

One thing I'm extreemly positive about though is even with low traffic networks a ~0.1% data loss is only possible if you've recorded like 1-5min. of traffic. Recording it daily it's more around 5%-10% data loss, for UDP that means 5%-10% of the data is never seen, for TCP that means 5%-10% of the time it has request the data again.

So for high traffic a daily loss would read around 20%-30%, for 30 min. - 1 hr that is about 10%-20% data loss. Becomes obvious then that with 100 lines of messages 10-20 of them are going to be lost.

[Icemage]

Actually the lossage rate isn't usually quite that high. I posted above that a cross-Pacific trip should result in a minimum of 1%, and yes, you could go way higher, but I'd expect a normal average of about 10-15% under peak conditions. 30% for normal traffic is excessive; if you're getting that sort of UDP loss rate you need to change ISPs. :P

However, there's obviously something double-checking at the far end, because we don't generally lose anything off the chat log, so anything that fails to show up obvious gets resent under normal circumstances.

Another possibility is that Square-Enix temporarily disables this resend feature during Beseiged in an effort to reduce the amount of data that has to go out (at the cost of losing accuracy in the chat logs). I don't really think that's happening, though, since I seem to get better results when I fight in a more isolated corner of Al Zhabi - and my packet receive numbers don't fluctuate wildly - they just stay high most of the time.


Icemage

[Macht]

Actually the lossage rate isn't usually quite that high. I posted above that a cross-Pacific trip should result in a minimum of 1%, and yes, you could go way higher, but I'd expect a normal average of about 10-15% under peak conditions. 30% for normal traffic is excessive; if you're getting that sort of UDP loss rate you need to change ISPs. :P
However, there's obviously something double-checking at the far end, because we don't generally lose anything off the chat log, so anything that fails to show up obvious gets resent under normal circumstances.
Another possibility is that Square-Enix temporarily disables this resend feature during Beseiged in an effort to reduce the amount of data that has to go out (at the cost of losing accuracy in the chat logs). I don't really think that's happening, though, since I seem to get better results when I fight in a more isolated corner of Al Zhabi - and my packet receive numbers don't fluctuate wildly - they just stay high most of the time.
Icemage


As far as what they do with the packets, this has been explained before (Not even by me but that Cliff guy) is that he's recorded it sending 1 UDP packet for less pertinant data and sending 2 UDP packets for more important data. So it already suggests there that the client does very little in the form requesting a resend. So I would stick with the belief that if the client does request for a resend, it's of data that is the most important to receive by how SE rates importance.

[Lambeaus]

Slightly off topic.

How do I tell when a Besieged is going to take place? And can I find out in any place outside of Whitegate?

[Macht]

Slightly off topic.
How do I tell when a Besieged is going to take place? And can I find out in any place outside of Whitegate?

Type /bmap and look at you'll see status of the enemy forces. Any that are advancing means they are getting ready to attack. Basically one will generally start to advance once they reach around 100 units, then continue increasing till they reach you.

[Lambeaus]

Type /bmap and look at you'll see status of the enemy forces. Any that are advancing means they are getting ready to attack. Basically one will generally start to advance once they reach around 100 units, then continue increasing till they reach you. Do you have to be in the ToAU area to access this?


For me, this is more or less knowing to avoid the area at my level, even tho I'd love to take part :P

About how much time is there between when they start advancing and when they start breaching the walls?

[Macht]

Do you have to be in the ToAU area to access this?
For me, this is more or less knowing to avoid the area at my level, even tho I'd love to take part :P
About how much time is there between when they start advancing and when they start breaching the walls?

At the moment they start advancing it takes about 30min. till they reach you and Besiege begins. If you see it say Attacking in there then you know Besiege the actuall battle has started.

[Lambeaus]

Thanks for all the info! One last question, if you don't mind :P

How often do they occur. I've only been there a handful of times, and been stuck in one once (when logging in)

[Macht]

Thanks for all the info! One last question, if you don't mind :P
How often do they occur. I've only been there a handful of times, and been stuck in one once (when logging in)

Varies depending on what the players have done. You can stunt the Beseige's or delay them if players are out attacking them. Otherwise it can be pretty frequent, some times you can have all 3 forces come at you and it's a Besiege, after a Besiege, after a Besiege.

[little ninja]

So are you guys saying that S.E in attempts to make Besieged injoyable for all systems an system speeds, that it only sends out the most basic of UDP packets?

[Icemage]

So are you guys saying that S.E in attempts to make Besieged injoyable for all systems an system speeds, that it only sends out the most basic of UDP packets?
It's not so much that they send out the most basic data (but I grant that it is a possibility). But the limitations in the technology are certainly what's causing the excessive lag that we're seeing. I think it's just a matter of how S-E created their game engine. The problems in Beseiged arise from the fact that, more than any other activity in the game, in pushes the technology beyond its limits.

Theoretically, the FFXI server for Al Zhabi can send as much data as it wants to each player, but the thing with UDP (which is what FFXI uses for chatlogs), in cases where there's tons of information coming down the pipeline, it's the first data to get dropped by the computers that are transmitting to the players.

If you want a visual example, think of a funnel - the transmitting computers on the Internet will each have a maximum amount of data that they are willing to pass along, and it's possible that Square-Enix's servers are sending so much data that some of it is getting "dropped" in favor of more important information. So only the most useful data (like player stats) gets through, and all of the combat log messages have to take their chances.


Important data \
Important data \
Important data \-------
Combat Log Important data
Combat Log Important data
Combat Log Important data
Combat Log Combat Log
Combat Log Combat Log
Combat Log /-------
Combat Log /
Combat Log /



Icemage

[Macht]

So are you guys saying that S.E in attempts to make Besieged injoyable for all systems an system speeds, that it only sends out the most basic of UDP packets?


UDP packets are very basic. The have absolutly no overhead. It makes it were a lot more data can be sent out faster, the price for it though is that receiving end is not guarenteed to get the information.

Now you can compensate for this by creating software to check the data it receives and send back a request for missing info (or send the more important data multiple times). However if you are doing this for every bit of data coming over then you might as well just use a TCP connection (Since TCP is already built to this specification and is more Hardware driven then Software).

About the only major reason you'd want to do UDP with software checking the data is if only a part of the data is a must to receive and the other data (which happens to be the larger quantity) can essentially be ignored, or you want data accuracy but don't care about order in which it's received. As it is messages about the damage you've dealt and received can in most part be ignored as long as your HP bar and mob's HP bar is accurate.

The other downfall of UDP is data sent to you is not structured, it can easily be put out of order (This is another thing that TCP would prevent but the cost is a speed penalty), this is why you can see sometimes that someone responds about an item drop before it ever reaches you. In reality what happened is the item drop list and the guys responce got shuffled going from router to router when it finally got to you. One reason that could happen would be along the path your connection established to SE's servers it's likely a router was using a FILO (First in Last Out) structure instead of a FIFO (First in First out) structure.

Any easy way to think of it (for me anyway), is imagine someone with a deck of cards tossing them 1 at a time to another person, who also tosses them to another, and so on till it reaches the last person. In TCP any cards that fall to the ground person picks up and then also reorders the cards back from lowest to highest. In UDP any cards that fall to the ground are ignored and the guy just tosses what's in hand to the next person. Of course when the system does this it's more able to catch most of the cards.

So really when you see an anomily like that it means the first UDP packet your system received was the guys responce to the items and right after the items reach you, even though the server would of sent the items info first and then that player's comment second. This also were you get into those anomalies you see were players report someone being able to attack a target before them. It's also were you get the odd occurences of when you attack a mob at the same time someone else has and think you got claim to suddenly see it change on you.

UDP is fast but still needs something to mask the delay that's still there and that's were you have the system coding predictions on what the out-come is till it gets a confirmation from the server.

The one time I can recall the game actually lagging from server side I was still able to move, type, and think I was sending messages. The truth of the matter though is all the stuff I had sent when the server recovered from it's lag were ignored. I happened to be in the middle of a shot when this happened, and what's funny is when the server recovered it continued the actions I had started.

So I was running around poking other players, waving, doing LS messages, etc... and getting no responce they were all like statues once they finished the fight with whatever mob they were fighting. About the only moving other then me were the mobs, yet they didn't engage in fights or aggro. Then suddenly out of the blue my character finishes the shot animation I started back in a different area of the zone.

The funny part of it all was I didn't think anything of it till I suddenly saw a train of Yagudo (Far more then I could handle) coming at me. They were clearly from the area of the zone I was at when I started the shot.

Ehh, sorry for the story. Mind trailed there. Oh, got to say that's a decent illustration there Icemage. Not entirely accurate but it is simplified for better understanding on what's happening.

[little ninja]

Just posting this before i forget. This weekend i saw 6 besieged, (wrong place right time i guess). When besieged was around 400 i didnt notice much of a lag. sure it was here an there, but for the most part it was very playable. Its not until it got around 500, an up til the 700 max that besieged doesnt run as smooth as one think its should. It seemed like the higher the number the more intense the lag ended up to be..

So should S.E lower the # of players active in besieged to around a 400-500 max?

[Karinya]

Only if they do something to exclude afkers/mules, otherwise more people will just be shut out and frustrated (and possibly lose because some of the people inside were useless and some of the people that would have been useful couldn't get in).

[seq]

I can play Besiege with full effects and have no lag problems. Well until recently but I stupidly did got on an installing spree so I'm sure a program I installed is the culprit of my degraded performance.
i'de like to know what kind of system you got, because even my XBox360 lags in besieged.

[little ninja]

Only if they do something to exclude afkers/mules, otherwise more people will just be shut out and frustrated (and possibly lose because some of the people inside were useless and some of the people that would have been useful couldn't get in).

Naa actually not to many afkers in Besieged that i know of. Infact i rarely even come across them standing around. After the last 2 days of besieged the total number of players in the zone afterwards was 25-39 total peeps. 25-39 taken up slots wont win or lose the besieged not even for the lvl 6.

The problem with besieged is the total numbers of players it can handle. it seems 500+ is overloading the system. 707 just sets my machine into overdrive....

[Shifty]

well, since everyone is against afk players in beseiged, this will probably piss someone off, but i found out something interesting. if your afk in besieged, you get exp anyways. i woke up one morning just after they retreated, and i gained 147 exp haha. just throwin it out there

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

As far as the Whitegate situation goes, if the Imperial Ward (if its more than just a CS trigger, anyway) opens up, that may ease up things in Whitegate just a bit. I assume high mercenary rank and mission progress would be required for it, though. Its still one of the parts of the city, like the Colossieum, that we can't access yet.

[Macht]

i'de like to know what kind of system you got, because even my XBox360 lags in besieged.

360 has title of powerful only because of it's techincal specs. You take in account it's poor cooling design and it's no wonder the 360 would lag. Aside from that I'll have to see if I can find it online anywere.

Aside from that if you payed attention to the XBox360's Video Card it's actually no better then a mediocre video card that was obsolette before it was released. Any of the recent 512MB Video Cards could beat it especially one with SLI technology. Hell the XBox360 only does 500 million triangles per second, that's like around Nvidia GeForce 6 series power. The GeForce 7 series and 8 series can just about double that or better.

Outside of that XBox360's RAM is not even near what most PCs can do. I mean combined it's like 1.3GB RAM mine at it's Min. runs 1GB RAM and maxes at 4GB which I happen to be at.

Do realize that FFXI was ported to 360 only because the 360 was able to read it with very little conversion and went to 360 instead of XBox because the XBox didn't have that capability to support the game. It doesn't mean squat speed wise for the game that it's on a 360, the Further Draw Distance was a sort patch job to accomidate the "High Definition" and simply because the XBox 360 has specs higher then the PS2 so it was able to handle more then the PS2.

Great for illusion tricks to make people believe it's stronger when really it only claims that more powerful statement by only being CPU stronger and only by about 15% (Running safely too, person with a good CPU can just over-clock it enough to cover most of that margin). About the only 'cutting edge' thing that the XBox 360 has is the WiFi, customizable face plate, and it's specially treated case. Outside of that if you want real cutting edge stuff for the XBox 360 then that would be the HD-DVD you have to purchase separately.