Should Corsair's Pull?

[Iccarus]

Title pretty much sum it up.

I know it often depends on the party but more often than not I get half the party saying I should pull (which I don't mid doing) and the other half saying that a Support member should be buffing people up not pulling.

What are your views on this? It doesn't just have to be Corsair's that reply to this I just want a general selection on this subject.

Pros:

We have a Ranged Weapon that can hit them for a fair bit of damage to begin with.
For those Corsair's that sub Ninja they have access to Shadows for extra protection

Cons:

While we are pulling we are not buffing so it prevents us from doing our job properly.
For those of us that sub Ranger if it's a long pull and we don't have much protection to save us from a beating.
Our guns have a long delay which often ends up with someone stealing the mob intended or a mob pops at our camp and I'm on the way back with one in tow ¬.¬.

Like I said previsouly I have no problems with pulling but say if a Thief was in the party or a Ranger with Ninja sub should they be the ones pulling over me?

I just find some people just automatically assume that just becuase we have a Ranged weapon we should immediatley pull even if there is like a Warrior or Thief that has a Ranged Weapon as well which I think is just narrow minded.

Your opinions?

[Aeolus]

If it causes you too slack off or not have time to do the other things cor do in a PT then no. If not yes.

[Murphie]

They wouldn't be my first choice of puller. But if they want to, and they are keeping up with buffing, then sure.

[Celeal]

If there is more than one player can pull in a party, I would prefer the higher experience/skill puller for pulling: Who can avoid links, knows the area, knows the spawn points, knows the mob, and can make the exp. chain #5. The rest of party watch out the path for pops. If the exp. area is extremely packed with parties, which implies lack of mobs or waiting for spawns, I would prefer all melees in the party to search for pop and pull.

In some rare parties, I had been puller as a MNK without using range weapon or using provoke too. I would not say COR should or should not pull. I would say keep COR pulling as an option.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

In a crowded camp, I typically have problems with being the main puller since searching for mobs can take time off from the roll cycle. Not only that, the high delay of guns can lead to lost claims. Its just hard to compete with THF or RNG on Xbow or BRD pulling with Elegy/Lullaby. Quick Draw may be a fast claim ability, but its something to be used selectively based on forthcoming nukes or existing debuffs, plus it just tacks on a bigger hate spike at the start of a fight if unresisted. If a THF asks me to pull in such a camp, they just get a dirty look.

But if the camp isn't crowded, then I'm generally willing to pull and in most cases these days, I pull. Its not hard to keep four rolls going, doing the ranged melee bit and pulling if there's no competition.

[Loial]

COR in my static pulls. I think its because his other job is bard and normally we'd do 3 melee, 1 redmage, 2 bard merit PTs. Normally the bards pull at a furious pace, so its already bred into him and he can gauge when to pull the next mob, when we might need a rest, when his buffs will wear, etc.

However, if you have another job suitable to pull, then it can be harmless to let them do it.

[Zoner]

I've been called upon to pull in parties, but I think COR makes a 2nd rate puller. As it's been noted, I get mobs poached on me all the time because the delay on the gun is so high. (I suppose you could macro in pebble for pulling, but that's getting ridiculous.)

Granted, I'm only 32nd level in this job, and don't have a whole lot of experience with it, but I'd say the group is better off with a THF or RNG puller. Our static (in which I'm playing DRG) has even experimented with our NIN tank pulling and had a good bit of success.

[Murphie]

It's depressing how few WARs and SAMs pull these days. No one even mentions them anymore with regard to pulling.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

I don't think CORs should be expected to pull like RNGs and THFs are. I've been in PTs where CORs have pulled before and have experienced rolls getting slacked off. I don't primarily enjoy it myself.

I do know when I played COR to 40, I did not like pulling one bit. It caused me to have to delay rolls and I am a stickler for doing what my job is suppose to do, which is keep rolls on people.

So, I say no way lol.

[Dayala]

I don;t have a problem pulling in pts but you have to make it clear to your pt leader that rolls are your priority. I've screwed up chain 20+ to do rolls and angered pt leaders for taking my time rolling. I strongly suggested that the war pull then if he wanted the mages to stay refreshed. I hate it when brds pull as a mage because usually it's a over camped area and I never get my ballads ;o same thing applies to rolls, if cor is too busy trying to find mobs, they can't roll and their cycle gets thrown off.

I'd rather not pull as a cor but I end up doing it anyways.

EDIT: with enough practice you can time pulls with rolls, just have to be real smart about it. Once you have it figured out, don't get lazy with your rolls.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

COR's do have a less restrictive window in which to buff than BRDs do, though. We buff and it lasts for five minutes, they buff it lasts for two minutes - if anyone is at risk of blowing chains and buff cycles, its BRD. A good BRD will know how to cycle their buffs while pulling and its no different for COR.

And keep in mind that there ARE rolls we don't really have to perpetually double up on. Things like Healer's and Samurai Roll, which are common even with the relevant jobs not present, will still give some benefit regardless of the value you land on.

Peacemaker and the recent QD adjustment make COR a extremely viable and competitive puller now. Though at lowere leve QD really isn't what you should be pulling with, nor is that the case at any level, but it works in a pinch.

That aside, anyone who bitches about a broken chain 60 or w/e can go take a long walk off a short pier. You're getting a ton of EXP anyway, so STFU and get a life. God forbid we proritize our job functions.

[Aeni]

I'd rather have the COR pulling than my main healer. Just my two cents.

[Murphie]

Meanwhile, those WARs just stand around like idiots.

[Aeolus]

Why would a warrior pull lol? They cant sleep and they certainly dont want to be leaving the fight early when your trying to keep chain past 5 alive. Same with any other job except brd and well, I dont think cor should pull either just like when you have rngs pulling they cant sleep a mob very well or quickly and usually chains just end up dieing. Brd ftw, cor/rng/rdm if not. Thf can leave the fight as well early if they whack sata up before pulling so benifiting the Dmg delt in the long run. IMO

[Murphie]

Eh. Must be nice to just stand around and do damage while the rest of the party works overtime to provide exp for your ass.

Later on in the game, I totally understand why WARs wouldn't pull. But for much of the game, you're not in a TP burn situation, and I'd rather have a WAR go out and pull something than a COR who has buffs to worry about and a really long delay on their ranged attack. They can't sleep either, so I see little reason why one of the melee can't pull. I mean, if it's a choice between COR or RDM, or one of the other members of the party, then I'm going to look to some of those melees and ask why they don't step up.

They certainly used to do it without bitching, but I guess they are all princesses now.

[BurningPanther]

Why wouldn't a WAR pull? They get access to Sleep bolts, just like THF, DRK, and RNG do. And it's not like their leaving the party will result in a loss of chains, seeing as how they coming right back to the camp with the next mob to be chained.

As for COR, I regard them as pullers much in the way I might regard a BRD. Sure, they can do it, but I wouldn't make them the first to do it.

[Armando]

Merit parties are a whole different beast. Outside of merit parties there's no good reason why a WAR can't pull.

[Murphie]

Oh, I regard BRD as pullers. They can clearly do it better than almost any other class, so I see little reason why they shouldn't be first choice.

Edit: Exactly my point, Armando.

[Aeolus]

Eh. Must be nice to just stand around and do damage while the rest of the party works overtime to provide exp for your ass.
Later on in the game, I totally understand why WARs wouldn't pull. But for much of the game, you're not in a TP burn situation, and I'd rather have a WAR go out and pull something than a COR who has buffs to worry about and a really long delay on their ranged attack. They can't sleep either, so I see little reason why one of the melee can't pull. I mean, if it's a choice between COR or RDM, or one of the other members of the party, then I'm going to look to some of those melees and ask why they don't step up.
They certainly used to do it without bitching, but I guess they are all princesses now.

I was talking about TP burn seens as thats all people do these days and yea, I just stand around doing dmg while other people work overtime lol for my ass because if I didnt they wouldnt be working overtime for anything.

[Murphie]

Yeah, but this thread isn't about TP Burns. So next time try and be a little bit more informed.

It's cute that you think you're so important to the party that all you need to do is show up, but the rest of the party that is keeping your lazy ass alive sees it differently.

[Aeolus]

Ok LOL

[Murphie]

Well, at least you're not trying to hide your trolling.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I dont think cor should pull either just like when you have rngs pulling they cant sleep a mob very well or quickly and usually chains just end up dieing. Brd ftw, cor/rng/rdm if not. Thf can leave the fight as well early if they whack sata up before pulling so benifiting the Dmg delt in the long run. IMO

Comparing Light Shot to Sleep Bolts is asinine.

COR can sleep extremely well. In most cases mobs slept by Light Shot stay slept for up to a full minute or more, especially VT mobs.

I don't think you've meritted with many CORs.

[Aeolus]

Well its once per minute which isnt too hot if your killing 2-3 in a min at a time(unless you can merit it?). They cant aoe sleep as far as I know which doesnt help. Really reason brd is the best for TP burn but like murphie said already its not about TP burns D: As for the not meriting with Cors, I have but most wont pull and the rest end up dead lol.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Well its once per minute which isnt too hot if your killing 2-3 in a min at a time(unless you can merit it?). They cant aoe sleep as far as I know which doesnt help. Really reason brd is the best for TP burn but like murphie said already its not about TP burns D: As for the not meriting with Cors, I have but most wont pull and the rest end up dead lol.

Quick Draw recast can be meritted. I've pulled respectably high chains without AoE sleep, its all matter of knowing the camp, knowing your shadows, your QD timer and having a feel for your PT's kill speed.

But then, I was once a BRD, I still pull with the same mentality I had before being a COR. I know when to leave to pull and don't forsake the core aspects of my job to pull: That whole buffing thing.

My main issue with BRDs pulling is they don't maintain buffs in EXP/merit very well, which IS a piece of the EXP per Hour pie. Buffs are why BRDs and CORs are invited in the first place. COR bests BRD in buff duration by nature, but BRD gives the best all around bonuses in what little common ground they have. What really gets me is BRDs can maintain buffs and pull - they just don't seem to want to.

[Aeolus]

Yea its hard to find a good brd who can do buffs and pull and even harder to find a Cor who can. Now knowing more about light shot now I full believe you that cor can pull just as well. I have PTed with some of the worst brd/cor for mainting buffs and pulling lol (while I sat around on my ass doing nothing).

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I'm not oblivious to the breed of COR that ignores buffing, I PTed with one occastionally while taking my RNG to 75 first. To say he was bad would be extreme so I'll just say he was "special."

PTed in a SH and dual wielded swords... with no ranged bonuses. Couldn't hit for crap and missed lots of weaponskills. Mages went without Evoker's for up to five minutes at a time. And he never doubled-up, ever. I can see people losing track when you hit a rough spot, have some adds or whatever, but otherwise, you should be able to maintain buffs.

I've never really had a complaint outside of a little overpulling the 40s. Mostly compliments, really.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Oh man... last night in XP PT on my 54 RDM, it was NIN MNK WAR COR RDM SMN and our COR was pulling. We were doing Bats/Scrops in KRT and of course, pulling tons of adds. (The camp is unfortunately designed that way at the entrance.)

I don't remember one time seeing that COR use Light Shot to help sleep the adds (it was all bats that added, that is.) I ended up having to Kite w/Bind/Grav in order to handle the Adds and keep up Buffs on myself to do some mini-tanking.

I wish I woulda remembered that COR had the ability to sleep mobs because I woulda flat told him that, in no less than "amiable" circumstances.

SHOOT lol

Otherwise, he did pretty good pulling. He kept up Refresh on me and the SMN at least. I think he was a little slow though on the melee's rolls..... but its melee.... not like they're important *wink*(tee-hee.)

[Cyrilis]

The one thing I'm curious to ask is, you guys are refering to the proper method of keeping up 4 different rolls on the party right?
I can't answer the possibility for COR being a puller in end game, with the use of merits on Phantom roll., as my CORs only lvl 66.
But before end game, post lvl 40, its next to impossible to honestly pull, and to keep up 4 different rolls on the PT, ( I.E Hunters and Fighters on melees, Healers and Evokers on mages) The math works like this. Each roll lasts for 5 min, the cooltime on Phantom roll is 1min; meaning you can only proceed to give rolls on a 1 min basis. Then you gotta work in your times for both judging distances, and doubling up. So basically your left with a 1 min window open between each rolls. Now technically, you COULD pull between those rolls, however its rather ineffective, and your bound to run behind on your rolls, and should you do, it will take another 4 min to catch back up.
And of course, finally, even if you were some hyper sugar fiend, with coffeine surging through your veins, I doubt you'll be able to keep a pace like this for 3 to 4 hours.

So the answer? I'd rather have another melee then a COR pull, just because its like putting a handicap on a BRD with his songs, then asking him to pull AND do his job.
Which is usually why I have to laugh at these COR/NINs post lvl 40.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

But before end game, post lvl 40, its next to impossible to honestly pull, and to keep up 4 different rolls on the PT, ( I.E Hunters and Fighters on melees, Healers and Evokers on mages) The math works like this. Each roll lasts for 5 min, the cooltime on Phantom roll is 1min; meaning you can only proceed to give rolls on a 1 min basis. Then you gotta work in your times for both judging distances, and doubling up. So basically your left with a 1 min window open between each rolls. Now technically, you COULD pull between those rolls, however its rather ineffective, and your bound to run behind on your rolls, and should you do, it will take another 4 min to catch back up.
And of course, finally, even if you were some hyper sugar fiend, with coffeine surging through your veins, I doubt you'll be able to keep a pace like this for 3 to 4 hours.

So the answer? I'd rather have another melee then a COR pull, just because its like putting a handicap on a BRD with his songs, then asking him to pull AND do his job.
Which is usually why I have to laugh at these COR/NINs post lvl 40.

I believe you're thinking way too hard about this. The timer for Phantom Roll shouldn't even be a concern for you by now. If anything, it is a blessing in disguise.

First off, you should know your Lucky/Unlucky #s by heart and know which numbers are best to double up or stay on if you don't land on either. If you know your Evoker's Roll, for example, then you know the best numbers are 5, 8, 10 and 11. 5 is Lucky, giving 3 MP a tick, 8 and 10 give 2 MP a tick, 11 is 4MP a tick.

If you're having a hard time judging range, you need some practice. COR buff range is roughly the same as a BRD playing a flute. Granted, BRDs buffs can vary in AoE range as his song tiers change, but COR doen't have tiers and that range doesn't seem to vary at all. Perhaps a little low level EXP is in order with BRD. BRD spends less time in combat and more time supporting the PT, as such, you'll be doing lots of buffing.

Also, in any ideal pulling situation you're going to have the mobs within reach. If your camp has long pulls you are going to lost out on a chain or buff cycle just because they're long pulls. Shorter pulls will resolve this issue.

Know your rolls, know your range and know your camp and time between buffs will become less of an issue. COR is at a disadvantage for the majority of its career due to the 480 to 600 delay guns they can wield, but if non-competitive camps that delay is not much of an issue. At 72, you have Peacemaker with 280 Delay - this pretty much levels the playing field for COR, as does our reduced QD timer.

Finally:

You do not have to have the kill shot.
You do not have to have the kill shot.
You do not have to have the kill shot.

When pulling, COR's job is 33.3 Percent QD/buffing, 33.3 percent pulling and 33.3 percent melee (and that last one is being generous). If you are in a TP Burn-type PT, you will be leaving at 2/3rds mob or sooner HP to pull the next mob (If its a manaburn don't even wait that long just pull again because that mob is toast). If QD is down, you will be blink-tanking the mob until it is either back up or the PT is ready to take it. Melee will become your last priority and you may not even engage the mob at times save to dump a Slug Shot or Spirits Within mid-fight.

If your PT does get a BRD, you can either to agree to cooperate and pull in tandem or just use it as an opportunity to sub /RNG again and melee and buff instead of pulling. Either honestly works, but the former really cooks up a fine EXP per hour.

Just as a final note, if you engage the current mob after using Light Shot on another, either have another job cast a non-DoT enfeeble on it or have a melee Provoke it. When COR shifts from sleeping one mob to melee another , claim on the slept mob can be lost. In TP Burn, the best solution is just to not engage the current mob at all, just go buff or pull something else if the current mob is about to die.

[Cyrilis]

... umm how exactly is a cooldown time on phantom roll a blessing?
I'm pointing out that giving 4 different rolls on a pt is a hard enough job as it is, adding pulling to that, only adds to the plate of what COR already has. I can promise you, if you COR/NIN it, and pull, you will not roll perfectly for 20 solid minutes, let alone a sitting of exp, I know myself I get overloaded and will forget where I'm at in rolling, or I might even go as far as forgetting an entire roll.
Personally I'm the first one to say I can't roll correctly and pull at the same time, so I won't do both unless the pts asks me.

To me, COR is all about their die, and their rolling, and to not take full priority over that, means your not doing your job correctly "For the most part"
Look I have nothing against people wanting to do their own thing, but to me? There are alot better options then having a COR pull, because we simply have other things to take care of instead doing something another job can effectively do themselves. And, if the COR/NIN isn't pulling, theres not much use to the sub beyond that.

And mentioning with my first post, I said I have no idea about end game "But"; I bet COR/NIN could be monterous with merits, killer gear, and the right experience and skill. What I'm pointing out is, for the most part, /NIN means, dual wield and shadows, and if your not pulling, dual wield alone isn't enough reason to sub something, not in my book at least.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I'm pointing out that giving 4 different rolls on a pt is a hard enough job as it is, adding pulling to that, only adds to the plate of what COR already has. I can promise you, if you COR/NIN it, and pull, you will not roll perfectly for 20 solid minutes, let alone a sitting of exp, I know myself I get overloaded and will forget where I'm at in rolling, or I might even go as far as forgetting an entire roll.


Well, my experience says otherwise. I've pulled as BRD and COR at merit levels and kept four buff rotations for both and its much harder for BRD to do that. It may not seem believeable and lots of people will make it seem like it isn't possible, but a good BRD or COR can buff and pull without letting buffs drop.

But by your own admission, you're not at merit level yet. Things change for COR there. If you spend lots of time meleeing at 72+, you will have difficulty seeing the best possible chains. I almost buff, sleep and pull exclusively now. Any bullets used are for pulls and the odd WS. If I have a BRD in PT, I do have more time to melee, but will also assist in pulling and sleeping additional mobs to keep chains high.

[Cyrilis]

If COR changes entirely at lvl 72, then your probably right. To me, it just makes more sense if someone else, say a War, or Rng. Pulling is pratically a different job alltogether, and as we all know, you need a head for keeping track of rolling, as your average middle lvl COR struggles and adjusts for it. If you can manage to do both flawlessly, all the power to you. I know when I try and do both, I'm burnt out after a few hours, therefore I found it smarter for someone else to pull (of course a job effective at pulling) instead of just standing there, while I can concentrate on rolling, and the free time I get per roll, I can dedicate it to more damage, more damage I could never do as a puller.
My real arguement is that Corsair die should be kept as a priority, and your average COR/NIN I find does not do so. Argueably it could swing the other way. COR/RNGs that I find attempt to deal more damage then the RNG beside them instead of caring to their buffs.
The only thing I can say is, with the experience I've had thus far "save for ToAu most of the time" is that your sooner or later gonna hit a dry spell for a mob, or at least get held up pulling and lose time over it. Long story short, if it CAN be avoided, a COR shouldn't pull, They are potentially able to do so, but at a cost for the average player.

[Karinya]

and the free time I get per roll, I can dedicate it to more damage, more damage I could never do as a puller.

So could the other person who's acting as puller. In fact, they could probably do more damage in that time than you can. I'm not saying this to put down COR, but if you think you have the direct damage output of a WAR or RNG, you're kidding yourself.

Long story short, if it CAN be avoided, a COR shouldn't pull, They are potentially able to do so, but at a cost for the average player.

Pulling is costly to the puller no matter who it is - not necessarily in gil terms, but in time. Especially in those parties that are trying to maintain infinite chains, the puller needs to leave camp before the previous mob dies, meaning they are unable to do damage during the last part of the fight. This is why jobs with very low damage output, like bard, are favored for pulling; once their buffs are in effect they're contributing to the fight even if they are no longer physically present. (This could be applied to RDM, too, if they're not also acting as main healer; I haven't seen many RDM pullers outside of manaburns but there's no reason they couldn't.) Having a WAR or RNG leave camp early can noticeably lengthen the fight.

It's a very different dynamic from lower levels where you need a certain amount of time between fights for people to rest and most DDs will just be standing around if they aren't pulling. Personally I prefer the traditional way (all other things being equal) but there is currently an extreme exp rate imbalance in favor of the speedkill party and you can't argue with results.

[Murphie]

While I definitely agree with the points about endgame pulling, there is a lot of game prior to that. And by the time a COR or any job reaches that point, they should have a pretty reasonable understanding of what they need to do (I realize this isn't often the case, but one can hope).

It would be great if folks could step out of their endgame mentality a bit and talk about the middle-game, especially when the OP and thread really have little to do with the specifics of endgame TP burn parties.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

While I definitely agree with the points about endgame pulling, there is a lot of game prior to that. And by the time a COR or any job reaches that point, they should have a pretty reasonable understanding of what they need to do (I realize this isn't often the case, but one can hope).

It would be great if folks could step out of their endgame mentality a bit and talk about the middle-game, especially when the OP and thread really have little to do with the specifics of endgame TP burn parties.

This isn't so much about endgame pulling as it is some people selling their job class, as well as their own skill short.

One major thing changed about the job right as I hit the high levels - Quick Draw recast. Light Shot and Dark Shot. I wasn't a fan of the changes, in fact, I still think the Sleep and Dispel effects were needless additions, but now that I do have a sleep I see no good reason not to capitalize on it. The recast tweak was very much appreciated.appreciated.

This change affects COR from 40 onward, that middle game you want to talk about. Now, I wouldn't advocate using Quick Draw to pull in competitive camps since there is a mild hate spike and you'll only get the threnody-like effect if you pull with elemental shots, but in competitive camps, it admittedly can be used (or abused) to that end. I'd save to help with enfeebles, but the situation wouldn't always make that practical. Some PTs I rarely even saw an enfeeble anyway.

Before the update, I would have fulling agreed it wasn't very practical for COR to pull, but not because of my buffs, but because of our high delay weapons. That all changed with the update, we have the potential to pull faster now.

And I just don't agree that Phantom Roll requires such a high level of concentration that you can't pull. I pulled for the majority of my levels, as /RNG at that. Buffs were always up.

People would decribe RDM or WHM as a costant balancing act, but COR and BRD are no different in that regard. You reach a point in any of those jobs where you just stop thinking about what needs to be done and just do it. At that point you're trying to figure out how to do it more efficiently.

If you don't do that, you won't grow in your job as well as others may.

[Murphie]

This isn't so much about endgame pulling as it is some people selling their job class, as well as their own skill short. Then why is everyone talking about how pulling relates to TP burns? I mean, I get what you're saying with regard to broader scope, but I just wish folks could post from a more objective view, like you are in this thread.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Then why is everyone talking about how pulling relates to TP burns? I mean, I get what you're saying with regard to broader scope, but I just wish folks could post from a more objective view, like you are in this thread.

I think people just like to talk about it now because once upon a time you could only ever burn exclusively with RNG or BLM PTs ...or so we thought. Back then. people also focused on EXP per kill rather than EXP per hour, they built PTs to fight IT+++.

Sanction changed that. VT became viable EXP targets and people starting looking at the EXP per hour instead of per kill. Now that practially everyone can do a burn-type PT, they feel all warm, fuzzy and special that they can do this and like to talk about it a lot.

Some people you can't get to shut up about TP burn. Its always "burn" this or "meripo" that. People who live in endgame just have a nasty habit of giving advice from endgame. When they talk about how things are done at endgame levels so much, people try to emulate what they're doing at lower level and we... get things like Valkurm or that DRK/THF pre-30.

[Vyuru]

My thoughts to the OP.

Gun delay is rather long, about as long or longer than the longbows correct? 480ish delay, so assuming that you are competing with other parties, I would rather have a warrior or some other job provoke pull if that's all they have, or use a ranged attack such as a chakram, crossbow+status bolts are great, or there might be other fast acting pulling abilities that I'm not aware of.

And yes, alot of people disapprove of pulling with provoke, but I've done it for awhile now when I've had to with no problems.

In a camp with little to no competition, I'd rather have a samurai pull if you have one, most that I've partied with go as sam/thf and carry a bow and arrows with them, so flee can help with the pulls sometimes lvl 50+ My party experiances with samurai pulling was mainly in the Boyahda Tree leveling off of crawlers/crabs, against mobs like Raptors or Pugils, you would probably prefer someone with shadows, such as a thf/nin or war/nin.

And it's unlikely to happen, but never ask the tank to pull since he's a warrior. Most of the time I wind up tanking with my warrior (lvl 39) and I cannot go out and pull then be expected to hold hate if I got beatup on the way back. It's best to have a puller who shouldn't be drawing alot of hate so that the whm can just toss out a Regen on them when they get back to camp instead of feeling the need to toss out a Cure III.

[Aeolus]

TP burn is like lv52+ so isnt really end game mentality and the OP doesnt have his lv posted or in the drop down menu so how do you know he isnt talking about TP burn..

[Murphie]

I'm sorry about your keyboard.

And I agree, BBQ. It's an annoying habit that a lot of folks have, but thankfully there are still enough folks out there with who understand that different perspectives are necessary.

[Spider-Dan]

COR is one of the best pullers at endgame, equal to any BRD. I have gotten spoiled (by myself, as ridiculous as that sounds) to the point where now, all I do in parties with BRDs is complain to myself about how they don't know how to pull. COR is really, really, really good at merit pulling. And this shouldn't even be under dispute.

But let's talk about non-merit. So there are basically three types of non-merit parties:

1) TP burn- Whether or not COR should pull in these basically depends on how good it is. If the party is capable of killing at a rate past chain 7, COR or BRD should be pulling and staging. However, this is rare pre-merit. If it's a party that can kill for chain 5-6 but nothing past that, anyone with ranged can pull. I'd generally prefer someone with a xbow, in hopes that they can stick an early acid bolt on the pull.

If you are pulling a mob with superior movement speed (raptors, tigers, colibri, puks, coeurls), someone with shadows should pull.

2) SC parties. These are all but dead, but if you somehow end up in one, someone with a fast ranged weapon should probably pull.

3) Manaburn. COR should pull, period.

COR really becomes a top-tier pulling option at LV72 when they get access to Peacemaker. Once you reach that point, the only job that should ever pull over COR is BRD.

[Murphie]

Parties with a "traditional" setup that could SC but don't actually exist in pretty good number prior to Burn party levels. I wouldn't say they were all but dead.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

COR really becomes a top-tier pulling option at LV72 when they get access to Peacemaker. Once you reach that point, the only job that should ever pull over COR is BRD.

Depending on the camp, I may still pull even with a BRD in the merit PT, especially so in Caedarva Mire or the new Thickets camp where mobs pop around you at any given time, so it helps just to to pull/sleep if only to hold more mobs to kill. Plus, you can support the BRD on sleeping mobs and vice versa.

Mamool Ja Staging point I'd really just let BRD take up pulling there unless you decided to camp in the middle of the mobs. If you're meriting in the safer spots, I skew back to /RNG sub and just melee/buff and back BRD with Light Shot if Lullaby fails.

But whenever I am main puller and no BRD is present, melee is bottom of the list. Hell, melee drops right off the list in most cases. I've taken Quick Draw down to 52 seconds and i'm almost ready to merit it again. It just helps keep that EXP rolling in with QD's timer lowered.

At lower levels, mixing melee in is of a more even priority to buffing. Pulling may not be as easy in some areas, but pulling and keeping buffs up is still viable, you just have to avoid being linear in your approach to buffing. You have a full 45 seconds to play with Double up and there's nothing to stop pulling in that time except melee and you do not always have to melee.

And that's the great failing people have with the ToA jobs, they are only looking for melee from them. The melee aspect to COR is a bonus, if its the main draw for you in this job, you persued COR for the wrong reason. Melee is fine for the majority of the levels and awesome with /RNG, but things can and will change and melee becomes situational.

[Spider-Dan]

Parties with a "traditional" setup that could SC but don't actually exist in pretty good number prior to Burn party levels. I wouldn't say they were all but dead.
SC parties without a BLM to burst are pointless, and I don't think I partied with a single BLM from 50-75 (excepting manaburn).

That's what I mean by "all but dead."

[IfritnoItazura]

SC parties without a BLM to burst are pointless, and I don't think I partied with a single BLM from 50-75 (excepting manaburn).

Level two skillchain can do up to 60% of the damage of the closing weaponskill--that is not exactly "pointless" --if you close with Rampage or Slug Shot, that's potentially lots of points of damage.

Of course, the monster would usually resist, and the SC effect wouldn't give anything close to the full damage. However, the resist rate can be drastically lowered with Threnody songs and the -ton Ninjutsu--even Ninjutsu from /NIN would work.

Getting melee/NIN to carry an extra ninjutsu tool and convince him to spend 4 seconds to cast spell instead of swinging weapons? Get everyone to coordinate and cooperate together? Ha! Good luck. That is what lately have changed from difficult to impossible, with the success of TP burn parties. Seems like most melees now treat parties as nothing more than bunch of people standing around while they bust out the WS's whenever they can.

And, yes, there are BLM's still seeking conventional parties. Humbled by TP burn, now you can ask even NA BLM's to backup heal most of the time without any major fuss. :rofl:

* * *

Speaking of fuss, looks like the debate over COR pulling is mostly about player preference and play style; those who want to pull can find a way to pull and cover the rolls, those who do not can contribute to the party in otherwise, too.

Maybe it would be more beneficial for the pullers to give examples/tips on how to pull and keep up rolls, and for the non-pullers to explain how they contribute the party with the time not spent on pulling instead?

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

I have an interesting question, concerning all this COR-pulling phenomena.

Can COR's sleep pull w/the same effectiveness as a BRD puller?

I really enjoyed sleep pulling on my BRD on my previous char. I may end up doing it again on this new one. But, I really enjoyed the heck out of COR as well, being able to DD + Support.

If COR's can potentially Sleep Pull like a demon, same way BRD is able to, I may just pick up COR as my next job.

Anyone care to enlighten?

[SharMarali]

I have a teensy point to make about things that were said previously about how WARs don't pull anymore and they "stand around like princesses" waiting for other people to "do all the work."

WARs were previously thought of as second-rate damage dealers. This is no longer the case. WARs are now expected to be one of the highest-output damage dealers in the party. As such, WARs no longer have the luxury of being able to equip any old crappy item in the ranged slot. They are EXPECTED to have a bomb core or bomb fragment so that they can get that extra attack power.

I primarily play support jobs, but I did play WAR for quite awhile. I pulled at low levels because nobody else wanted to, and because there are a lot of morons out there who don't know how to pull properly and I'd rather just do it myself. I pulled into the 50's and even some into the 60's. By the time I got my bomb core, nobody was really asking me to pull anymore anyway. The only time I ever ran into problems was when I would get invited to primarily JP PTs where apparently they still view WARs as somebody who should be equipping a bow and arrow and gimping themselves in terms of how much damage they can do.

Personally, when I'm in a PT as RDM or SMN, I'd rather NOT see a WAR pulling because I know how much difference in damage +10 attack makes. People pay millions of gil for Amemet+1 over NQ Amemet mantle because of FIVE attack power, but you'd rather see WARs give up on 10 attack power full-time so they can spend 10 seconds every battle pulling? It's not "being a princess" when you're honestly looking at the option of giving up a HUGE difference in damage.

[Armando]

If you're really in a party where there's noone else that can pull efficiently, I think having an efficient puller would affect EXP/hour more than the WAR having that Bomb Core equipped.

[BurningPanther]

"Hmm, Bomb core or bolts? Bomb core or bolts?"
That's what macros are for.

[Karinya]

The bomb core will kick out your crossbow (because it's not compatible), which kills your TP. Swapping between them isn't a very good option.

I agree with Armando, though - the difference between a good puller and a bad puller (or no puller!) is WAY bigger than the difference between a bomb core and no bomb core.


As for COR melee, it seems to me that the arguments for and against it are pretty much exactly the same as RDM melee (pre-51). You have only B skill, no JAs/JTs that improve your melee damage, a poor selection of low damage weapons, you have other responsibilities more important than meleeing, your gear focuses on other stats that aren't helpful for melee, you feed the monster TP with weak hits, you get hit with AoEs... anyone who thinks RDM shouldn't melee shouldn't melee with COR either. Shooting is, of course, another matter, but pulling out a melee weapon and swinging it is no more effective for COR than it is for RDM. (Less, actually - no enspells.)


P.S. Amemet+1 is down to 400k. Deflation ftw.

[Murphie]

SC parties without a BLM to burst are pointless, and I don't think I partied with a single BLM from 50-75 (excepting manaburn).

That's what I mean by "all but dead."In my quote I said prior to Burn levels. Pointless or not, it's kind of hard to burn in the 30s-40s, so you're going to have to have some kind of party setup.

I'd love it if I could get those kind of parties to SC consistently, but alas.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I have an interesting question, concerning all this COR-pulling phenomena.

Can COR's sleep pull w/the same effectiveness as a BRD puller?

I really enjoyed sleep pulling on my BRD on my previous char. I may end up doing it again on this new one. But, I really enjoyed the heck out of COR as well, being able to DD + Support.

If COR's can potentially Sleep Pull like a demon, same way BRD is able to, I may just pick up COR as my next job.

Anyone care to enlighten?

COR gets light-based sleep and that sleep is just as effective as Lullaby, though COR gets no AoE version of Light Shot. Light Shot is also one of eight Quick Draws you can do once a minute, but you can only pick one of them per minute. The recast of Quick Draw can be meritted down to 50 seconds total.

Quick Draw has various effects. If you shoot Ice Shot after paralyze, for example, the effects of a Paralyze spell will increase in power. Same for Slow and Earth Shot and so on. If you use QD pre-nuke, its works as a threnody would. Works for all magic except Physical Blue Magic and Physical Avatar attacks. Light Shot is also grated the effect of sleep while Dark Shot can be used to Dispel.

COR's start out with high delay guns (480-600) so they don't start out as the fastest puller, but fare just fine in non-competitive camps. As far as DD goes, they're not quite on par with RNG due to the fact that Silver Bullets are exclusive to RNG and we have no access to other ranged weapons.

Most of your TP would be gained through ranged attacks, /NIN is decent for light TP building in melee range but for many levels if the game I personally preferred /RNG for better damage over time and better accuracy. The TP you gain from direct melee will always pale to the TP you get from ranged. When you get access to Joyeuse and Peacmaker, you have potential for lots of close range TP building but that's only if you're not pulling.

Peacemaker is the lowest delay gun in the game, sitting pretty at 280 and available at level 72. This gun makes it extremely viable for CORs to pull even in competitive camps. And combined with Light Shot and a meritted QD timer, we very much can pull as good as a BRD, if not better.


Maybe it would be more beneficial for the pullers to give examples/tips on how to pull and keep up rolls, and for the non-pullers to explain how they contribute the party with the time not spent on pulling instead?


First off, keeping rolls up is not hard. It just isn't. If its difficult for the COR to maintain rolls, then something else is distracting him. Many CORs let the melee aspect consume them and that's really the whole problem. Its best to focus on Pulling and buffing or melee and buffing as opposed to all three.

You can juggle all three in a small camp with no competition pre-72, but after the speed of kills ramps up at burn levels, its just better to pull and buff unless a BRD wants to pull, then you can melee and buff.

As far as pulling goes, I start the party by laying down Evoker's and run out to pull after I'm happy with the number I land on. I pull a mob to camp and let the melee take it, then swerve out to get another. I grab that mob, Light Shot to sleep it, and run to the backline to do next mage buff. From here I should have 30 seconds to next Light Shot and once I've exited camp probably 45 to next Phantom Roll.

Within the next fifteen seconds I find a new mob and in the next ten bring it back to camp. By this time I'm at the melee side of the PT and I either (1) Light Shot it if the current mob HP is still 50% (2) Let the melee take if allready killed the last mob or (3) Blink tank the pull if the previous mob is almost dead (but not quite). When I've arrived and made that decision, Phantom Roll should be ready and I lay down the first melee roll.

And... I go back out to pull. If I did (2) or (3), I still have Light Shot at the ready and If I did (1) the next Light Shot should be ready by the time I got a pull back to camp. If not, just do (3) til you can Light shot. And so on.

Most of the time, I've gotten a pull into camp before Double up is down from the previous roll or just when it has gone down. So attending to the next Phantom Roll is never a concern for me.

But this all varies with a PT's kill speed. Its something you can't really explain, you just have to get a feel for how fast your PT is going to kill and roll with that feeling.

RDM, BRD and COR are busy jobs, but much of how they're played involves a bit of anticipation. What once was an aspect of those jobs you had to learn should eventually become a reflex action. I hadn't touched RDM in over ten months, but recently put it on to help out some people with a coffer key. It was honestly like I had never left the job at all, I slipped right back into a routine I didn't have to really even think much about.

[Spider-Dan]

Level two skillchain can do up to 60% of the damage of the closing weaponskill--that is not exactly "pointless" --if you close with Rampage or Slug Shot, that's potentially lots of points of damage.
The problem with this is twofold:

1) Frequently, in order to participate in a damaging SC, at least one participant has to use a non-optimal WS (e.g. Double Thrust over Penta). Without a MB, this can negate the additional SC damage by itself.

2) Waiting for your SC partner to get 100% lowers your # of WS used, which (again) takes the shine off of the extra SC damage. Without a MB, it's counterproductive.

Both of the above factors are precisely why people don't SC in TP burn parties (excepting basic LV1 SCs that arise from simply waiting for a WS to finish executing before you go).

Getting melee/NIN to carry an extra ninjutsu tool and convince him to spend 4 seconds to cast spell instead of swinging weapons?
Not worth the damage/TP they'd lose from not swinging weapons.

In my quote I said prior to Burn levels. Pointless or not, it's kind of hard to burn in the 30s-40s, so you're going to have to have some kind of party setup.
You said they exist "in pretty good numbers". If "Burn levels" now extends all the way down to LV50 (which is well over half the exp to 75) then I think "all but dead" is pretty accurate.

SC parties are really only common from the teens through the thirties (with the exception of the jungles, because mandies are wimps).

[Murphie]

Edited because this discussion is going nowhere fast, and I'm tired of belaboring the same point over and over again. It's clear that my experiences in the game are the exception, and not the norm. Lesson learned.

[Cyrilis]

I think the final answer is situational and of course lvl teirs depend on whether or not a COR should pull or not. "Currently" I myself don't like to pull, my reason for this is that where I can stop DD on the dime and get my roll off where I need it, I can't exactly so do in the middle of a pull, between pulls I would lose time, and of course it would compile to the point I'm behind, this effect happens even more so when a second pt comes by. I'm never going to attempt to be a RNG, and even if my slug shot does deal more damage then a Wars rampage, should I try and beat him in TP, my first priority in any pt is rolling, save for /whm and a pt member dieing.
Like everyone says, pulling is a full time job, lining up mob after mob to get the highest chains possible. For me, atm my rolls and the full time job of pulling conflict, and until I can find a method on how to solve the solution, whether it the peacemaker, or meriting (when I hit end game) or a new camp where pulling can be done in 30 seconds flat, I don't believe I should be pulling where as in my rolls could suffer or I could miss that chain 6 or 7.

CORs have alot on their plate, along with Rdms and brds. It only makes sense to me that a party of 6 should distribute these tasks and positions evenly, as FFXI is a team based effort game, trying to do it all, and slipping on one of the tasks because of the multitasking is foolhearty.
Concluding, if you can keep a buffing of 2 rolls on the mages, and 2 on the melees flawlessly, AND pull effectively, then you got my admiration, I only hope I can mutiltask to that extreme in time. If your like me, or the pulls simply take too long, then don't bother.
The only thing that makes us COR are our Die, failing on that task alone is shameful to me.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Could have just said this:

I haven't tried it nor am I willing to find out.

Saves us more time.

All I can say is that I've gotten tons of compliments across my COR career and I didn't get them by doubting my own ability.

I was maintaing four buffs as a pulling BRD a long time ago, back when people didn't level BRD for that purpose even. Bard buffs are a two minute duration and that's makes them even more complicated to keep up, yet I managed by spacing them out differently as opposed to a linear rotation. Keeping buffs up as COR is a breeze by a wide margin, we're built for both tasks rather well.

[Cyrilis]

Thats with merits, omg, and the best of the best of pulling gear, fastest gun, merited Phantom roll, and the whole nine yards, such situations could make COR/WHM a respectable DD, with an mp pool of 400 mp.
Every minute a roll has got to be coughed out, where as Brd can sing anytime he or she likes, they can go over their own previous songs that are still very much up, unlike COR, giving them the advantage to go past 4 different songs depending on the situation. Like how everyone says, giving a great Brd more time to sing only enhances the pts ability to rest, regen, refresh, nuke, melee and even ra. Brds CAN pull, but why get them to when theres another job very much capable of doing the job and concentrating on that alone?

As for a DD like RNG leaving the pt early go get another mob, Sure damage over time is lost, but whats the difference so long as the mobs dead before the next mob takes its place?
We could argue for ages about this, because COR is a very flexable job. Give them the right gear, and hell, you could make COR/WAR a decent combo, heck, I'd even go as far as saying Gear could make COR/DRG good. The only true arguement I have whatever you can do at end game, doesn't necessarly mean everyone else can, I'd even go as far as saying 90% of all COR/NINs on my server do nothing more then melee for their TP so they can throw a slug shot at the mob, in an effort to save on ammo. The people I speak of, even go as far as holding back on rolls to melee more.
Concluding once again, COR can pull, but just around as good as BRD, however, the numbers of skilled COR pullers and BRD pullers are not as high as everyone would like to believe.
I'm pretty sure one day I could COR/NIN it and pull/roll effectively, but I still won't take over the task if my LS THF was present, and unlike BRD, COR is best to sub nin to get the job done.

[Spider-Dan]

Every minute a roll has got to be coughed out, where as Brd can sing anytime he or she likes, they can go over their own previous songs that are still very much up, unlike COR, giving them the advantage to go past 4 different songs depending on the situation.
COR can (and frequently does) get by on 3 rolls every 5 minutes. BRD would have to sing a minimum of 6 in that same time frame.

Brds CAN pull, but why get them to when theres another job very much capable of doing the job and concentrating on that alone?

As for a DD like RNG leaving the pt early go get another mob, Sure damage over time is lost, but whats the difference so long as the mobs dead before the next mob takes its place?
It sounds like you haven't participated in endgame high-chain parties. When you have [edit: 60] seconds to kill a mob from start to finish, you can't afford to take a major source of damage off of the table and tell him to go pull the next mob.

You say that another job capable of concentrating on pulling alone, but in fact, BRD and COR are the two jobs MOST suited to this task. BRD and COR's buffs still stay active when they leave the area to go find another mob. In contrast, every second that a DD is out hunting and pulling the next mob is a second that they are NOT dealing damage to the current one.

If there were a DD that focused entirely on DoT debuffs, that would be a reasonable choice to go pull. But no current DDs work this way. They have to be engaged and stay at the mob in order to perform their role; BRD and COR do not. That's why they are the best choice for pullers.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Thats with merits, omg, and the best of the best of pulling gear, fastest gun, merited Phantom roll, and the whole nine yards, such situations could make COR/WHMa respectable DD, with an mp pool of 400 mp.

I don't have Phantom Roll meritted at all, no point to doing so when I'm back at camp before Phantom Roll is up again. Even before my Quick Draw merits were in the picture, two weeks ago, I was still back at camp before the next Phantom Roll was ready.

I've only just finally meritted Quick Draw Recast to level 5 (50 seconds) and will finish meritting Quick Draw Accuracy next. After that, its on to Marksmanship. MP and RNG merits.

I got my Peacemaker cheap because I realized that low delay and +5 AGI may become a factor post-update, just as Dan did. But again, I pulled for the majority of my COR career and across several other jobs. I know pulling, its not an exclusive skill to any one job, its just something you learn to do in various jobs.

I remember the first time I started pulling was as BRD was on Toramas in LoO. We had no real viable puller in PT and the SMN was raising his hand and wanting to pull. I wasn't a fan of BRD pulling back then, but I realized SMN pulling would take a healer out of the backline and that I didn't need to be in PT all the time, just be there to buff and do the odd status cure or healing.

So I pulled with Elegy, slept with Lullaby. No one taught me how to do this nor was it commonly discussed amoung BRDs at the time. I just knew what skills were at my disposal and that, as a BRD, it was an acceptable risk.

And COR and BRD are fortunate in that we get lots of invites, death shouldn't even be a concern if you play these classes. If I get struck down as COR/NIN, I only ever got up again and started pulling, even when weakened.

Why?

Because I can and it works. Why hold up the EXP?

[Jethreal]

Hi-o all,
Someone had asked about pulling/buffing tips so here I go. Note I am currently Cor 61 and sub Rng. This is my first job to this level so no merits.

My cycle looks like this, first buff Evokers, run and pull, back at camp first mellee buff. At these levels it usually take a little longer to kill a mob so I have time to build TP, at 1/4 health I'm checking my recast to go 2nd mage buff or pull/light shot then second mage buff. Build TP/WS whatever, and @ 1/4 mob health pull/light shot return for second mellee buff. Rinse and repeat.

My general thinking on alternateing mage and mellee buffs is that if something odd happens and a buff fails, it has to go really bad to have the mages lose all their buffs. Also it keeps one usefull buff on me for while I'm building TP.

I hope this helps all us lower level Cors. Also as a side note, I generally didn't like pulling untill the change to light shot, as with subbing Rng blink tanking turns into, hey how long do you think that Mob can beat on the Cor before we have to save him :P

[Vyuru]

"Hmm, Bomb core or bolts? Bomb core or bolts?"
That's what macros are for.


You toss a Bomb Core at the Yhoarter Mandragora

:P

Edited because this discussion is going nowhere fast, and I'm tired of belaboring the same point over and over again. It's clear that my experiences in the game are the exception, and not the norm. Lesson learned.


Actually I'd like to see what you wrote, your posts are always a good read and tend to teach me something that I didn't know before.

SC parties are really only common from the teens through the thirties (with the exception of the jungles, because mandies are wimps).


I'd actually think they'd be more common up until the low 50s when you can take on Lesser Colibri, which to my knowledge are the lowest level expable mobs in ToAU, I could be wrong though.

Otherwise, for the old exp spots lvls 30-50 that I hit, I just can't see a TP burn working, especially pre Rampage. If you were to do the same level stretch, where would you exp and off of what? I'm curious to know how it's done because I just don't see how.

The only true arguement I have whatever you can do at end game, doesn't necessarly mean everyone else can

I don't think that's true with the exception of certain merited abilities. With the same subs/gear, one lvl 75 corsair could do everything that another lvl 75 corsair could do, the only difference is what they CHOOSE to do. If one choose to go for a more DD route and forsake roles that does not mean that they can't put the emphasis on roles, they choose not to do it.

[Cyrilis]

I've been talking with alot of pullers I.E. End game THFs, RNGs, and even a few wars. No doubt Pulling can be done by COR. But essentially, Cor can pull, just as good any other job that can equip an Xbow and sleep bolts, I.E DRK, WAR, THF, and RNG, and if thats not enough, xbows are much faster unless you are using the peacemaker, because lets face it, guns take forever to shoot, especially the 600 delay ones. CORs are limited to guns, so stat bolts are a no go, and if your using your quickdraw to pull, you won't be able to help enchant important enfeebs such as slow and blind for nin tanks.
I have respect for anyone who can do both pulling and rolling as a COR, and if you can do it, go for it.
If you can't, leave pulling up to someone else if you can avoid it.

As for the post above, I ment skill wise. I know people with 4 lvl 75 jobs, but they can't seem to do important tasks in BCNMs, stun for the life of em, or freeze up or panic when something unexpected happens whether its merit, exp or an NM fight. I'm not pro by any standards, but I can see what to do, and what not to do clearly enough, and if someone brings enough logic and evidence AND fact to the table of an arguement, I'm willing to accept it.
Before I got involved with this post, I was 100% against COR pulling, but with the recent facts I've read up on, I'm willing to say its all based on the CORs skill and desire of position in the PT. So whether position of Pulling or DD, a good COR can do either admirably, as its a very flexable job with nothing quite in stone yet.

[Vyuru]

As for the post above, I ment skill wise. I know people with 4 lvl 75 jobs, but they can't seem to do important tasks in BCNMs, stun for the life of em, or freeze up or panic when something unexpected happens whether its merit, exp or an NM fight.

Ah, skillwise that is quite another matter. I might just be lucky, but I have yet to met anyone who just froze up, or panic, or just whatever, we've all had our D'oh! moments, but I just haven't seen someone seriously screw up unless it was someone who just didn't care, or someone who was actually trying to screw up. So to be honest, that is something I normally don't think of just because I don't see it happening.