Ok...wth?!

[Eauijhkuu]

It's depressing me to hear from one of my bahamut buddies that due to the recent expansion, alot of job combinations are being jumbled around.

...Which is fine, if they were sensibally working towards the betterment of the group.

...Time and time again have I personally had to switch my A weapon for a D weapon just to make a SC.

But when do we draw the line with these slight demands/norms?

Why should a MNK have to /NIN just to keep from stealing hate and dying due to bad tanks?
Why should THF have to sub /NIN to pull crawlers?
Why should SMN or RDM become the main healer VS a WHM?
Why shouldn't SMNs or RDMs buff and heal?
Why should BLMs heal?
Why shouldn't WHMs Nuke?
Why dont' WARs tank post 40?
Why can't NIN Debuff and enfeeble?

I guess the thing I'm getting at is, how can you really tell what job combination/abilities are necessary for certain situations without gimping the party for the sake of another person who isn't necessarily pulling their slack?


Because I personally think that party wise, your teammates come first. But why on earth would you MNK/NIN and gimp your DoT??? that's just garshdarn ridiculous.

[neighbortaru]

you wouldn't MNK/nin unless you are in specialized situations; HNM camps and bone parties come to mind

btw, were you gone for a long time because these "issues" have been around forever.

[Davitron3000]

Why should a MNK have to /NIN just to keep from stealing hate and dying due to bad tanks?

In my experiences tanking with a monk is that they hit hard and they hit fast. Subbing Ninja is not about them doing less damage as it is them surviving to do more damage.
(just my opinion though)

[Jei]

Mnk/nin is almost a must unfortunately for merit parties. I went to KRT with 4 monks, rdm and brd. Non of the monks used /nin and we could hardly pull anything more than chain 3 believe it or not because I, the Rdm, burnt all my MP rediculously fast just curing.... On top of that the leader kept crying for haste. /shrug.

Conserving MP is a huge factor for successful merit parties.... and everthing/nin will give you just that.

[Caspian]

I'll give a shot at some of these.
Why should a MNK have to /NIN just to keep from stealing hate and dying due to bad tanks?
Already covered.
Why should THF have to sub /NIN to pull crawlers?
Doesn't have to, but is often done incase of bad pull and to offhand a dagger with nice stat bonuses while mainhanding a high damage dagger.
Why should SMN or RDM become the main healer VS a WHM?
Partially b/c they either have more mp (SMN), can refresh themselves and don't have to worry about refreshing others too (RDM), are good at mp conservation (RDM), or there are no WHM's lfp.
Why shouldn't SMNs or RDMs buff and heal?
Buffing is something both jobs do rather well, SMN's defensive blood pacts are quite nice. But why are you complaing about them not healing when you say you don't want them to main heal. Any job with curative spells should be ready to help cure when things go bad.
Why should BLMs heal?
Because if the main healer is out of mp and the party is in dire straits, then the blm should throw a cpl cures in to save the party from a wipe.
Why shouldn't WHMs Nuke?
There mp is better spent curing the party. The occasional banish is alright so long as they don't need their mp elsewhere, and dia is a godsend. Didn't you already say that WHM's should be healing?
Why dont' WARs tank post 40?
Really it gets bad post 50, but they start losing their edge around 40 (prolly 37 more accurately) as the two main tanking jobs (ninja and pld) start getting the last of the required tools needed to tank and hold hate effectively. Post 50 things start hitting much harder and it takes very good gear and a very different setup to tank at all, especially w/o being a burden on mp.
Why can't NIN Debuff and enfeeble?
They do.

[Vair]

Caspian, you're just awesome. XD

[greydaze]

But when do we draw the line with these slight demands/norms?

Why should a MNK have to /NIN just to keep from stealing hate and dying due to bad tanks?

This I agree with you on, but there are SOME MNKs who make it their duty to do all they can to pull hate off the tank as quickly as possible. I think ANY melee job should have to watch their hate, like RNG used to, slowing/backing off when you have too much.

Why should THF have to sub /NIN to pull crawlers?

I don't really know any THFs personally who don't sub NIN post-30. And I've never heard of a PT leader demanding /nin of anyone who wasn't a war (for off-tanking).

Why should SMN or RDM become the main healer VS a WHM?

Because without them, there are a lack of healing jobs for XP. I look for a whm first, then RDM, then SMN if I must. Besides, where SMN really shines is once a minute in BPs (soon to be twice a minute). What else do they do in the downtime?

Why shouldn't SMNs or RDMs buff and heal?

I suppose this is related to your earlier question. Although I'm kind of confused. Are you saying you APPROVE of healing RDM/SMN or that you DISapprove?

If a smn or rdm is invited to a PT as a main healer and aggrees to be such, then they might have to put that first. That's just how it goes. If I'm a SAM and I sub WAR so I can first-voke at PT request, I'm not going to whine about taking a few hits. If a SMN doesn't want to main-heal, that's his/her perogative. But many are willing to.

Why should BLMs heal?

Because, as a backup healer, BLM's can save the PT from certain doom. I have been asked to main-heal in a couple of PTs, which I quickly declined. But if a BLM wants to main-heal, then it's the same argument as above.

Why shouldn't WHMs Nuke?

1) BLM nukes at half strength against IT mobs do crap for damage
2) Banish/holy in the middle of a fight can cause hate to shift if the WHM is overusing curaga or high-level cures.

Aside from that, I know a LOT of whm's who finish off mobs with banish and holy. Just not the whole battle.

Why dont' WARs tank post 40?

Because by this time, you're getting into mobs that have double- and triple-attack. Ichi alone just doesn't cut it. And since WARs aren't generally equipped to take damage, they fall pretty fast. Want to tank with WAR? Get a good static going where they'll let you experiment.

Why can't NIN Debuff and enfeeble?

...What are you talking about? Every NIN I know post-37 enfeebles the mob, if they're any good, as well as using the elemental wheel to get the most out of those other spells. If you mean STAND IN THE BACK and do it, that just won't happen. NIN has been a tank for far too long to change the structure of tanking now by removing it.

[Macht]

Really it gets bad post 50, but they start losing their edge around 40 (prolly 37 more accurately) as the two main tanking jobs (ninja and pld) start getting the last of the required tools needed to tank and hold hate effectively. Post 50 things start hitting much harder and it takes very good gear and a very different setup to tank at all, especially w/o being a burden on mp.


WARs get much the same gear that PLDs do. All in all defensive wise the PLD job really is only able to outbeat WARs in defense by about 23 defense points. Defensively PLDs and WARs are not that far different. PLDs get flash and sentinal to help and WAR handles it in a different method with like War Cry and Aggressor.

Even the strongest defensive gear states "WAR/PLD". Both jobs are heavy armor jobs, just players that are known as WAR tanks are either riddiculed for it or are bad at doing it. Want a perfect example of this EQ provided one before with Rangers, in EQ a very skilled Ranger is capable of being a tank even though they are silk class jobs. The poor Rangers though became more famous then the skilled ones and the term "Ranger Gate" was born (Meaning a ranger who tries to tank and gets horribly defeated).

Because of the crappy players or those lacking the proper ability to preform an idea, they can ruin it for others who truely have the ability and skill which actually is a productive result for the job.

[Caspian]

WARs get much the same gear that PLDs do. All in all defensive wise the PLD job really is only able to outbeat WARs in defense by about 23 defense points. Defensively PLDs and WARs are not that far different. PLDs get flash and sentinal to help and WAR handles it in a different method with like War Cry and Aggressor.
Even the strongest defensive gear states "WAR/PLD". Both jobs are heavy armor jobs, just players that are known as WAR tanks are either riddiculed for it or are bad at doing it. Want a perfect example of this EQ provided one before with Rangers, in EQ a very skilled Ranger is capable of being a tank even though they are silk class jobs. The poor Rangers though became more famous then the skilled ones and the term "Ranger Gate" was born (Meaning a ranger who tries to tank and gets horribly defeated).
Because of the crappy players or those lacking the proper ability to preform an idea, they can ruin it for others who truely have the ability and skill which actually is a productive result for the job.
Understand and agree that a WAR can equip themselves to tank. Its rarely done, even more rarely done right, and even more rarely allowed by the rest of the party.
The biggest difference comes in PLD's having mp to help cure themselves and not be quite the mp sponge a WAR will be. A PLD's mp isn't amazing, but if they use it, then after the battle its two people resting and regaining mp at the same rate rather than one WHM trying to regain all of it. Same applies to post 41 and refresh.
WAR tanking can be done, Nny's shown us that, but like Macht said: There are way too many bad apples that try, so you give up on apples alltogether.

[Icemage]

1) BLM nukes at half strength against IT mobs do crap for damage
2) Banish/holy in the middle of a fight can cause hate to shift if the WHM is overusing curaga or high-level cures.

Aside from that, I know a LOT of whm's who finish off mobs with banish and holy. Just not the whole battle.

ROFL. As a career WHM, I have to chuckle about WHM nukes. Even Banish III (by FAR the best WHM nuke) is not particularly powerful even when used against undead; I cast it because it lowers Defense in King Ranperre's Tomb parties, not because of the 400ish damage it deals.

I can honestly say I've never pulled hate with any version of Banish or Holy. :P If I want to get a monster's attention, all I have to do is cast Curaga IV.


Icemage

[Celeal]

WARs get much the same gear that PLDs do. All in all defensive wise the PLD job really is only able to outbeat WARs in defense by about 23 defense points. Defensively PLDs and WARs are not that far different. PLDs get flash and sentinal to help and WAR handles it in a different method with like War Cry and Aggressor.

Even the strongest defensive gear states "WAR/PLD". Both jobs are heavy armor jobs, just players that are known as WAR tanks are either riddiculed for it or are bad at doing it. Want a perfect example of this EQ provided one before with Rangers, in EQ a very skilled Ranger is capable of being a tank even though they are silk class jobs. The poor Rangers though became more famous then the skilled ones and the term "Ranger Gate" was born (Meaning a ranger who tries to tank and gets horribly defeated).

Because of the crappy players or those lacking the proper ability to preform an idea, they can ruin it for others who truely have the ability and skill which actually is a productive result for the job.

There is a limit on what defensive gear can do. Those defensive gear WAR can use post level 50 can only keep the WAR-tank to survive while tanking. WAR really lack the ablilty to reduce the downtime while tanking.

I have done main tanking for a short period of time as WAR in a level 60 party, after the NIN tank left (party down to 5 ppl). Hate wasn't a problem, survival wasn't a problem (I have tanking gear/food with me, and very skillful BRD + RDM + WHM support). However, downtime is still there.

Maybe WAR/BLU for tanking can pull it off post level 40 .. at least it looks good on paper :P

[Eauijhkuu]

Yeah.

I was kinda being more rhetorical with the long series of questions.

My main concern was MNK/NIN in an EXP party at LV 50.
And unless it is merited, why would people have a demand for that kind of job?

Didn't quite understand it personally.

[Macht]

Understand and agree that a WAR can equip themselves to tank. Its rarely done, even more rarely done right, and even more rarely allowed by the rest of the party.
The biggest difference comes in PLD's having mp to help cure themselves and not be quite the mp sponge a WAR will be. A PLD's mp isn't amazing, but if they use it, then after the battle its two people resting and regaining mp at the same rate rather than one WHM trying to regain all of it. Same applies to post 41 and refresh.
WAR tanking can be done, Nny's shown us that, but like Macht said: There are way too many bad apples that try, so you give up on apples alltogether.

Yes, the PLDs capacity to heal is what makes a little bit of the difference. I personally hate the behavior of giving up on the "apples" just because of the bad ones, it just retards growth and potential of finding better methods. The thing that really does need tweaked is healing type potions. Because of their expense and effect they are rediculously priced, otherwise if priced right they'd be used much like EQ uses heal potions and gives many of those others jobs the capacity to tank. Perhaps an Heal Potion boost trait for WARs that would make those heal potions more worth their expense, that would help WARs to be viable for tanks as well.

[greydaze]

Imho, it's a lot better to stay centralized on a certain subject if you want to discuss it, or else what we have here (a shifting topic covering all jobs) will form...:thumbsup:

[Desideratum]

I didn't realize that MNKs were being asked to sub NIN in the 50s. I know I've seen it at endgame, but not that early on (although now that I think about it, a MNK in my party did voluntarily sub it the other day, but he was trading hate with another melee since we couldn't find a tank, so maybe that's what that was about).

That's a long list of rhetoricals for one question. ^^;

[Caspian]

Yes, the PLDs capacity to heal is what makes a little bit of the difference. I personally hate the behavior of giving up on the "apples" just because of the bad ones, it just retards growth and potential of finding better methods. The thing that really does need tweaked is healing type potions. Because of their expense and effect they are rediculously priced, otherwise if priced right they'd be used much like EQ uses heal potions and gives many of those others jobs the capacity to tank. Perhaps an Heal Potion boost trait for WARs that would make those heal potions more worth their expense, that would help WARs to be viable for tanks as well.
I understand about not turning down the idea alltogether because of some retards, and I won't turn down a party simply because of it, but I'll certainly be wary. I've had a PLD tank at 60 who couldn't hold hate, I'm going to naturally be apprehensive about tanking with a WAR main tank when its a pickup party. And if things do go bad, I'll be thinking up excuses to leave within the hour.

Again, as for MNK/NIN at lvl 50, I've never seen it. I suppose there are some idiots who do it (because they either have a job at 75 already and thats how they do it in meripos so that must be how it should always be done or because they read thats how its done at 75 and didn't bother to find out if it changed depending on your lvl), but I've not seen it done, and without berserk at that level I've never seen a MNK pull hate from a good tank. (Atleast not w/o using a big WS, which most jobs can pull hate by doing.)

[Celeal]

IMHO, MNK/NIN at level 50+ with a "tank" in a party does not make sense. Most party are fighting Carb (high defense, big ouch without Beserk), Bat in KRT (evasion down and double attack, sux for shadows).

If the party knows when to "burst" the damage --- big skillchain + big MB --- even the mob turns to the MNK/WAR, the mob should die before it does much damage to the party. The mnk/war can swap in evasion+ gear and keep counterstance up, or simply swap in Def+/Vit+ gear and suck it up. The mob would die very quickly after SC + MB anyway, a simple Regen on MNK is enough in this case.

WAR/NIN for DW II for more DoT while riding the hate-line, which make sense.

MNK/NIN at level 50 with a tank gimping his damage output to ride the hate-line? rofl....