Single-wield vs. dual-wield Joyeuse

[Spider-Dan]

For purposes of this discussion, let us presume that you have Suppanomimi (sword skill+5, DW coefficient -0.05). Let us also presume the existence of a sword with the same DMG/delay rating as Joyeuse (D35/224).

If we are comparing single-wield vs. dual-wield Joyeuse, there are a few significant factors:

1) Dual-wielding reduces the frequency of a Joyeuse add'l attack proc. Normally, Joyeuse double attacks (2A) 50% of the time. That averages out to 1.5 attacks per round. When DWing Joy, that means that one hand averages 1 attack per round, and the other (Joy) averages 1.5 attacks per round. That's 2.5 attacks per DW round, or 1.25 attacks per hand.

2) DW2+Suppa gives an increase to attack speed, but reduces TP gain accordingly. The attack speed increase you get from DW2+Suppa will essentially counteract the faster attacking speed from a single-wield Joy, but it won't counteract the TP advantage.

In this scenario, it would seem apparent that single-wield Joy wins fairly decisively. However, in real-world application, most of the swords you'd pair with a Joy have better base damage/delay ratios, which might be enough to offset the increased TP gain from a single-wielded Joy. But this doesn't take into account SJs; if you are going to single-wield, you could be getting Accuracy Up from /RNG or Berserk from /WAR, so that's another advantage for single-wield.

Basically, in conclusion, I'd say: if you need shadows for protection and are forced to use /NIN anyway, single-wield vs. dual-wield is a tossup. If you don't need shadows, single-wield Joy should be significantly better (assuming you have a DD subjob).

[Icemage]

So the gist is that single-wielded Joyeuse gains TP faster than when dual-wielded with any non-multiattack weapon (i.e. RDM/NIN using Justice Sword on main and Joyeuse on sub). Interesting.


Icemage

[Caspian]

Yeah, Armando crunched the hypotheticaly numbers of K-club's activation rate too and found the same thing for it DW'd with Ridill.
I think for the most part, dual wielding two weapons where one is a multi-hit weapon and the other is not, or where both are multi-hit weapons but one hits significantly fewer times, then just single wielding the higher multi-hit weapon is better for TP gain, and usually DoT as well.

[Radel-King_of_Pirates]

As I sit here a moment as my brain tries to turn over and tries to think I get questions. . . then read all again and answer all of them. I have to say that is very interesting lol

[Spider-Dan]

Well, I knew from the start that DW would give less TP than single-wielding Joy, since DW's speed increase reduces TP/hit and Joy's doesn't. What I was trying to determine was the approximate difference in attack speed (i.e. DoT) between the two. And it looks like (if you had an equal DMG/delay weapon in the other hand) the DPS would be virtually unchanged by dual-wielding, but the TP return would go down.

[Caspian]

Ah, I see. Based on what you found, if you were to DW, what would be your suggested mainhand sword, or rather, how damaging of a sword would you most likely have to have in order to get better DoT?

[Celeal]

I'm confused ^^;

Are your trying to say,

COR/RNG using Joyeuse at blank-point for TP gain, and run back for Slug Shot,

or

COR/WAR using Joyeuse and spamming Vorpal Blade,

deal more damage then COR/NIN dual weird with Joyeuse?

[Spider-Dan]

No matter what SJ you are using, you should always be running back for slug. No other WS will compare to it.

My comparison was aimed more at COR/NIN single-wielding (because shadows are needed) vs. COR/NIN dual-wielding. It's a pretty close comparison; I haven't run the numbers on exactly how high the DPS would need to be on the other sword, but given COR's sword selection, I don't think any sword would be dramatically better.

[Ecto]

COR has capped sword skill at only 240. Joyeuse or any other sword isn't going to work. In case you didn't know, Marksmenship caps at 250 and dagger 256.

[Radel-King_of_Pirates]

COR has capped sword skill at only 240. Joyeuse or any other sword isn't going to work. In case you didn't know, Marksmenship caps at 250 and dagger 256.

Point is dude? Knowing Dan way he his, he knows. But they way I look at it the level of the sword doesn't matter as long as it's capped the joy-toy, and that if I can hit more then once I be happy and get more tp to do my slug shot.

[Jei]

I read that Cor doesn't usually get hate with /Rng. Unless you WS right at start or pull with quick draw. How true is this?

[Radel-King_of_Pirates]

I read that Cor doesn't usually get hate with /Rng. Unless you WS right at start or pull with quick draw. How true is this?

We get hate from our rolls . . . well if you do one and do a double-up . . .happen to me atleast a few times. Also hate from a quick draw to a critical range attack hit me once then turned back to the pld. also a lol ws to a quick draw then a roll and I got enough hate for it to run after me lmao.

[Omni]

COR has capped sword skill at only 240. Joyeuse or any other sword isn't going to work. In case you didn't know, Marksmenship caps at 250 and dagger 256.

what's the point of this post?
the point of melee'ing is for tp gain, not damage. with suppanomi it would push sword to 245. add sushi and joy-toy its a nice added bonus to help you get to 100+ tp for your slug.

dont expect to land 80% of your melee hits like other melee jobs. that's not the point. combined with normal ranged attacks. that extra 15-25TP you get from melee helps a lot with your tp gain.

slugshot is all that matters.

[Macht]

well, call me crazy but if you are using something like Joyeus with /WAR then not only is Berserk benefiting for you but isn't Double Attack when it activates going to give you a significant enough improvement? or did I miss something and that Double Attack doesn't activate with multiple hit weapons, personally would think that to be cheap because it's like knocking out a WARs trait.

[Spider-Dan]

COR has capped sword skill at only 240. Joyeuse or any other sword isn't going to work. In case you didn't know, Marksmenship caps at 250 and dagger 256.
Suppanomimi pushes that to 245, and /RNG Accuracy Up would make you as accurate as someone with 269 sword skill.

But thanks for the insight.

[Jei]

well, call me crazy but if you are using something like Joyeus with /WAR then not only is Berserk benefiting for you but isn't Double Attack when it activates going to give you a significant enough improvement? or did I miss something and that Double Attack doesn't activate with multiple hit weapons, personally would think that to be cheap because it's like knocking out a WARs trait.
From my understanding, Joyeuse double attack rate is around 50%. DA trait from warrior sub can only happen when joyeuse proc doesn't happen, so that leaves you with around 2.5% to get DA proc from war sub.

[Macht]

From my understanding, Joyeuse double attack rate is around 50%. DA trait from warrior sub can only happen when joyeuse proc doesn't happen, so that leaves you with around 2.5% to get DA proc from war sub.

Well that kind of sucks that Joyeuse would overwrite WARs Double Attack, seems that WARs are getting the short end of the stick from that.

[Spider-Dan]

It would suck even more for WARs if 2A would overwrite Ridill's 3-hit proc or KC's 3-8 hit procs.

[Lmnop]

still horrendously marginalizes (what I'd perceive to be) Warrior's and Thief's greatest traits.

Not that Joyeuse is broken, but said Ridill and Kraken certainly are, for just the reason that even a Warrior with said weapons is better off investing gear and merits into enhancing their other abilities over Double Attack.

Nothing "short end of the stick" about it, considering WARs can equip most of the best double attacking weapons, but it really does one-dimensionalize the game when their Relic Weapon cannot compare to a 40 DMG sword.

[Cyrilis]

Personally? I'd side with COR/RNG with the joyeuse on this topic
Post lvl 60 rolls don't really get too much hate anymore, seems to be fixed, although random deal does generate some hate, but thats every 20 min. I'd hate to be repeating myself, but I really don't see a reason for /nining it unless your packing kclub along with the Joyeuse, and even then the mobs gonna spam WS's on you and the "desperate" tank.
I guess this all goes back to what people believe what COR is all about, because technically the general public only grasp COR has refresh, and they have a funny looking gun. So why not get the Cor with the funny looking gun to pull, right? thats what the guns for, right?
I think a iron-clad and solid guide for COR would probably eliminate the guessing done with the job, because god knows, half of FFXI still doesn't know how rolls work, let alone what each roll does. That or time.

Oh and regarding one of earlier posts; COR/RNG CAN rip hate off a pld or nin. Sharpshot + Slug shot+ a few shots for TP + barrage + Slug shot again.
... Not that I'd recommend doing this.. it makes one hell of an ending combo, just make sure the tanks good, and that last sluggy kills the mob or yer screwed >_<

[arkaine23]

DA from /WAR is 10%. With a 50% double attack weapon, this becomes effectively 5%, not 2.5%. Brutal Earring's 5% would become effectively 2.5% with Joyeuse though.

Same thing with Ridill....
10% DA means in a WAR or /WAR's hands Ridill is 27% 1 hit, 36% 2 hit, 33% 3 hit. With Brutal, and 4 DA merits added in (DA 20%), then it becomes, 27% 1 hit, 40% 2 hit, 33% 3 hit.

DA is diluted by Multi-hit weaqpons. But its not bad at all for WAR mains since their mainhand weapon is usually not multi-attack, and still gets the full benefit of their Double Attack trait.