About the new job adjustments...

[Rosalie]

Now they DID mention that they were going to be doing something with getting us more WS's in the future...

I'm kind of wondering what exactly we'll be getting. Hexa Strike maybe? Swift Blade?

Any more speculation? Also... What exactly would encourage us to USE different weapons? Granted, I have a personal philosophy on WAR of "speak softly, and carry a freakin' ARSENAL" but really, is there any REAL incentive to actually use anything other than GA and Axe? You get your Darkness chains with GA, your Light with Axe, so what else really is there left?

[Raydeus]

That's a good question.

While I don't think they will make big changes to the number of WS WAR gets (although it would be nice) they might do other kind of things to encourage the use of other weapons.

One way could be changing all of WAR's weapon ratings (other than Axe/G.Axe) to B+, this doesn't include Archery, Hand to hand or any other weapon where WAR doesnt have at least a B- rating already.

But I'm just shooting in the dark here, I have no idea what SE has in mind to change the way things are right now.

[Jei]

I think add stronger effects to weapon type versus monsters? Like, against Tarutaru you do 50% more damage with blunt weapons. That would make people use more mace/hammers in PvP at least.

[Raydeus]

I think add stronger effects to weapon type versus monsters? Like, against Tarutaru you do 50% more damage with blunt weapons. That would make people use more mace/hammers in PvP at least.

:rofl:



Edit > That's a good idea, since I can remember people have been curious about why there's only 3 types of weapons, and why some weapons that are clearly one type are considered a completely different type when the game calculates their dmg.

Edit +1 > And of course why some types of weapons that should be strong against a mob are the same as weapons that shouldn't work at all.

[Lmnop]

maybe they'll add WAR to the list of NIN equippable Great Katanas and give us a D rank GK or something... I won't hold my breath for the trait that makes me able to equip any weapon, regardless of equip list, at a rate of level to equip +5 (so Grand Knight's Lance at level 65 instead of level 60).

Right now, it's not about the weapon ranks that keeps us from using other weapons, it's the fact that Axe and Gax are so damn good. If we were A rank with Scythe, we'd still prefer Gax. Part of that is not being able to equip the better tiers of those weapons (Drk only Greatswords, Lances), and part of it is losing Rampage. Toss in the significant blow to attack and accuracy, and then the fad to completely disregard skillchains, and you have yourself no definition of "taking one for the team."

----

I just want to mention in regards to the upcoming update, all I can say is:
WAR/samx3, BLMx2, Rdm. Low healing, lots of hate bouncing, Raging Rush to Raging Rush. Lots of Fragmentation + double MB. Easy enough refresh cycle for the rdm, low enough healing.

With a smart enough Drk, DRK/sam or SAM/war + WAR/samx2 would prolly prove even better.

If the party understands that this is an MMORPG and that you have to work together, it should become a new type of burn layout... just with Skillchains and smart people.

[Malacite]

How about changing the damned 2 handed dmg calculation so that dmg doesn't vary so much?


There's no reason a Great Axe should hit for as much as or less damage than a one handed axe. Ever. Period.

[Armando]

Two-handed weapons have the same calculations as one-handed weapons.

[Lmnop]

I exped for a while as war/sam the other night. Just thought I'd share a little bit of my (inconclusive) results.

I was fighting Imps (level 68), and amnesia kills. Amnesia, for those that don't know, makes you unable to use WSs or JAs. This is pretty hard on a /sam combo like that, as I'm basically playing a never-ending cycle of JAs. It's bad enough that amnesia effs up my serk/aggressor -> Warcry cycle, toss in hasso and well timed meditates. Not to mention that a great deal of my DoT advantage over /nin comes from more weapon skills that are slightly weaker (Raging Rush usually performs a bit weaker than Rampage) but since I end up having Amnesia so much...

Anyway, I'd like to try it again but I think it went quite well. I think in the future, I'll try to use Hasso whenever I use Meditate, just for a device to remember to refresh it. If you let hasso drop, you're not keeping up with Dual Wield.

Tp was great, damage was great. When Amnesia didn't get in the way, I was tearing shit apart. If I had tp at the start, Full Break was usually in way (which I missed with 3 times in an hour o0).

I'd like to think I'm a bit smart with meditate. I don't use it every 3 mins, precisely. I time it for maximum tp. If 100tp=true, use WS and med. If not, meditate (obviously). The fun trick, though, is when you have say... 80ish tp. You use Meditate and gain one tic (12%tp) and a melee swing (15ish), use WS, and you still have 48% tp from Meditate coming your way (plus any tp from standard melee that may come in that time. So you usually end up with 60ish).

Good Sam mains use this trick, of course. Just thought I'd pass it along to anyone who would consider war/sam.

I want to point out that I keep reading all over the internet {about the SAM updates} that they haven't seen a war/sam yet, and that's indicative of how much it affects Warrior. We all know that the reason no WARs are war/sam yet is because 97% of them are too stupid to come out of their dual wielding shells. They cannot bear to think that there could be a method to rival Utsusemi. This isn't just Warriors though, this is all the other party members who don't know enough about the game to let their WARs try something new. Well, you folks all know this "sheep player" rhetoric but don't let "no one does WAR/sam" make you think "war/sam apparently doesn't work."

Are our Thanks on the site regularly whiped? o0 Armando had like 21 and now he has 3. And I was finally in the teens.

[Jei]

Ping said he'll bring back the backup thanks a few days ago. Hopefully it will be back soon.

[Vyuru]

Ping said he'll bring back the backup thanks a few days ago. Hopefully it will be back soon.


And then I'll be in the teens! Bwahahahaa!


Back on topic though, it's good to be reminded of how Meditate works, since my samurai is at lvl 20 right now. But I was wondering if store tp works with ranged attacks. When I play warrior I like to go in with a Gaxe and shoot a status bolt between each swing, and it'd be really nice if the tp gain from that was upped a bit :)

They cannot bear to think that there could be a method to rival Utsusemi.

Not just that, but Hasso doesn't kick in until lvl 50, and how many of these players even bothered to skillup another weapon besides Gaxe? That'd mean there are 50 painful levels of Gaxe skillups before they could use it in a party. I think there is a bit of that going on as well.

[seq]

maybe more weapons, more lance type polearm WAR can use for example.
and hopefully EASIER skill up, skilling 2handed weapons sucks as it takes weeks to cap.

[Celeal]

The problem is most parties want WAR/NIN. For some reason the parties prefer DRK, SAM, DRG, MNK, etc, over WAR/SAM.

Whenever I got into party as WAR/NIN (as requested to /NIN) and often have more attention from the mob than the main tank, I asked myself why don't I just level up NIN, instead of WAR/NIN, since I end up tanking anyway...

Now I am leveling up NIN as main job >.>

[Vyuru]

maybe more weapons, more lance type polearm WAR can use for example.
and hopefully EASIER skill up, skilling 2handed weapons sucks as it takes weeks to cap.


I dunno about more lance type polearms for warriors. I remember this one warrior in a few exp parties I had in King Ranperrer's Tomb who used the lvl 50 lance and who did almost as much damage as I did against the bats, wyvern damage not included, and I was using a Holy Lance. She was a war/nin and I was drg/war, do I really want more lance types available to warriors if this is the case? What is to stop a party from then getting just a warrior instead of a dragoon in the party?

You guys get so much more +str/att gear that it helps ease the difference between damage ratings, and if you are fighting something weak to piercing it is almost nonexistant. I don't mind if warriors get more weapons to play with, heck that is their versatility and they should be able to do it, but not at the expense of my invite rates, I already have enough trouble competing with warriors as it is.

I won't hold my breath for the trait that makes me able to equip any weapon, regardless of equip list, at a rate of level to equip +5 (so Grand Knight's Lance at level 65 instead of level 60).

Something like this though would be good. Most of the time there is something better for me to equip every roughly every 5-10 levels, so I would still be able to keep my edge in polearm damage against warriors and warriors could use whatever they wanted. That's a pretty cool idea.

I don't think that two handed weapon skillup rates should be changed. The reason one handed skillups are so fast is that if you go /nin, you are hitting twice and getting twice the amount of skillups. I've found one of the easiest ways to skillups something was to mainhand an axe and offhand something to skillup with because when I do a WS my off hand weapon get's a hit in as well.

In the early levels until about level 40, exp comes in so fast it's hard for me to keep multiple weapons skilled up for my warrior, I could keep Gsword Gaxe and axe all skilled up, so I focused on axes, so I solo skilled up Gaxe until I could skill it up in exp parties.

That was all before the exp bands came out, so exp comes even faster now. You want that fast exp, it should come at a price, and that price is that you cannot skillup your weapons as much between levels, you have to pick what you want to skillup.

And honestly, at this lvl of warrior (39), I'd rather tank as war/mnk, let the mages use a little more mp, they won't use that much more mp and besides, it's good for them to actually use their macros and not go afk, and I can hold hate against the stupid blm in most cases, who doesn't understand the concept of hate control and the limited hate gaining tools that a solo war/nin tank with no thief backup has.

I would honestly want to give war/mnk tanking a try lvl 60+ as well, all the other warrior tanks that I have seen, whether they were /mnk or /nin, have always had DD gear on and were not geared for tanking, I would be very interested in seeing how a properly geared war/mnk would fare in a standard party.

[Lmnop]

I don't think that two handed weapon skillup rates should be changed. The reason one handed skillups are so fast is that if you go /nin, you are hitting twice and getting twice the amount of skillups.
but daggers skill up in seconds, while it took me ~30 hours to get my Greataxe skilled up from level 50 cap to level 60 (around 50 skill points). The higher the delay on a weapon, the higher the skill up rate should be. Also, when skillchain effect hits, it should give a skill up chance for both people involved. That would help make skilling up interesting.

You want that fast exp, it should come at a price, and that price is that you cannot skillup your weapons as much between levels, you have to pick what you want to skillup.

sorry, can't agree with that. =( This game does not believe in karma. If you level only axe and only /nin, nothing will ever bring you down. There is no "price" to pay, since parties won't give a shit. Sure, I'll call you a bad Warrior, but I'm just a dude on a board. Exp parties want /nin axe/axe anyway. Ideally, the price would be bad exp for those w/out multiple weapons capped (In a world where skilling up Scythe isn't much different from skilling Club).


I would honestly want to give war/mnk tanking a try lvl 60+ as well, all the other warrior tanks that I have seen, whether they were /mnk or /nin, have always had DD gear on and were not geared for tanking, I would be very interested in seeing how a properly geared war/mnk would fare in a standard party.

Last time i got to do it in exp was 52. Went well, but that was low end mobs. You won't find their like ever again in the 50s and beyond. I got hit by an imp the other night for 169 damage (normal swing) in full attack gear. I then swapped to full defense gear and got hit for 120ish. -50 DMG is impressive, but 120 damage/swing is not. If I had defender or defense food, I imagine I coulda brought the damage down to the 90-100 region.

So yeah, maybe I could stack that with defender and VIT related gears, but I can only imagine what my hit-rate/damage would turn to from that. Then I would become a Paladin who can't cure, though I'd still deal more damage than they usually do. Except... I think a PLD could gear more offensively and be able to keep up with a defensive war/mnk while being able to cure himself. S-E isn't making it easy on us Warriors who actually enjoy a good tanking stretch every now and then.

[SharMarali]

We all know that the reason no WARs are war/sam yet is because 97% of them are too stupid to come out of their dual wielding shells. They cannot bear to think that there could be a method to rival Utsusemi. This isn't just Warriors though, this is all the other party members who don't know enough about the game to let their WARs try something new. Well, you folks all know this "sheep player" rhetoric but don't let "no one does WAR/sam" make you think "war/sam apparently doesn't work."


I can't entirely fault the WARs for this, and I also can't entirely point to them and go "Sheep sheep sheeeeeep!" either.

I'm a 71 WAR, so not exactly an expert, but I have some small idea of what I'm talking about. I began raising WAR a very, very long time ago, when the NA release was still relatively new and I was a 70 RDM who was thoroughly bored with being a mage. It was something of an out-of-body experience, honestly, because I AM a mage first and foremost in everything I do. I was just looking for a new challenge I guess.

At that time, the general consensus about WARs was entirely different than it is now. Specifically, WAR was seen as a class that no one raises as a main job. People raise it to 37 for a support job and quit. That's just all anyone should ever do with it, because it's not as strong as other classes. Yeah, I know that sounds ridiculous now, but it was the attitude at the time among the NA. In fact, when I got past 37, I would often be informed by PT members that WAR was really just a SJ and would be asked why I was raising it past that level. How do you respond to that, anyway? Directly being informed that your job is no use at the level you're at? It's ludicrous.

Well, I saw something in WAR that nobody else saw. I felt that WAR was a master-of-all-weapons, user-of-all-SJs, and I set out to prove everybody wrong that it couldn't be a strong attacker. I raised NIN, MNK, SAM, and THF to 30, figuring I'd go back and take them to 37 later. I skilled up every kind of weapon I could get my hands on. Up to the 50's, I could use axe, great axe, polearm, sword, and dagger with equal effeciency and I carried one of each with me. I was able to open or close any SC anybody could think of trying to make. I could swap to whatever SJ would help the PT and I did it without hesitation. I could play DD, or, if needed, I could tank. Tanking required a little more assistance from the PT members as I got higher into the 50's of course, but I was still willing to do it as long as they were willing to help out.

I wound up quitting WAR at level 61 for about a year because I have severe job ADD and something shinier caught my attention, so I went "OOooohhh! That dog has a puffy tail! C'mere puffy! Teeheehee!" and compeletely abandoned WAR. I sold all my gear even, something I still regret to this day.

A long time went by, and I had some incentive to try and raise WAR again. By then, it was a legitimate main job. But it had changed, too. No longer did it matter if I put in my search comment that I could use axe, great axe, polearm, sword, dagger. No longer did it matter if I stated that I could use SJ NIN, THF, SAM, MNK. It didn't matter that I was willing to tank if needed. All that mattered to anyone was that I could sub NIN and dual-wield axes.

A lot of friends I made during that year when I had retired WAR were surprised to learn that I had greataxe raised as high as axe, or that I had polearm raised almost to the cap. "Why would you do that as a WAR? All you need is axe."

When I get invited to a PT, there's never any question about what I'm supposed to do. Usually the setup is NIN WAR WAR WAR RDM BRD or NIN WAR WAR MNK RDM WHM or something. Nobody is ever going to let me use any of the various other tools I worked so painstakingly hard to acquire, because nobody has come out of the box long enough to see that WAR can do other things besides omgrampagekek.

It's sad that nobody's ever seen the versatility that WAR can offer. First they thought WAR was a useless job raised only as a SJ, and when they finally saw WAR as a DD, it was believed that all they added was utsusemi and rampage. Unfortunately, changing peoples' minds in this game is virtually impossible, and one person cannot usually do it by themselves. At least not without a whole lot of video evidence.

[Vyuru]

Last time i got to do it in exp was 52. Went well, but that was low end mobs. You won't find their like ever again in the 50s and beyond. I got hit by an imp the other night for 169 damage (normal swing) in full attack gear.

Just so I'm clear on this since I haven't fought imps in exp parties, while all ToAU mobs are supposed to be weak, Imps are supposed to be really weak physically in offense and defense but have strong magic right? If so, I can really see why war/mnk wouldn't be as good at tanking then, I would have expected a physically weak mob to hit you for less than that in full tanking gear. Now granted you weren't eating +def/vit foods, but even so, 120ish/hit is what I would expect a pld to get hit for by a IT high attack mob you know?

Ideally, the price would be bad exp for those w/out multiple weapons capped

I guess I'm living in that fantasy world where people might actually want their warrior to use a Gaxe to open/close a darkness SC.


We all know that the reason no WARs are war/sam yet is because 97% of them are too stupid to come out of their dual wielding shells. They cannot bear to think that there could be a method to rival Utsusemi. This isn't just Warriors though, this is all the other party members who don't know enough about the game to let their WARs try something new.

I have to agree, it's not always the warriors who aren't willing to try something different. I have plenty of parties telling me that I should be going as drg/thf instead of drg/war. On the other hand though I have invited some warriors who came as war/nin and used a two handed weapon in the lvl 50+ range. I could be wrong, but I don't see the benefit that subbing ninja gives a lvl 54 warrior using a Gaxe, especially when you have a paladin and thief in the party.


SharMarali, I have to say that is a beautiful post. I have a warrior friend who went through something similiar. He was one of the first people to level warrior as a main job, and while he had other jobs/weapons leveled, he was also one of the first people to go war/nin.

I've seen him go through some problems for leveling warrior back in those days, since after all everyone knew that the advanced jobs were SO superior in every way, otherwise they wouldn't be advanced jobs! /roll eyes

It's kind of sad that now when warrior is seen as one of the top DD, he has problems with the party when he wants to switch to a different weapon in parties, or a different sub.

At least not without a whole lot of video evidence.


I still don't think people would believe it. Waayyyy back pre ranger nerf, this guy would give a good ranger a run for his money for the slot of top DD, and the ranger would still be asking him why he was playing a weak job like warrior.

Sadly people will believe whatever they want to believe, and will go to whatever lengths to prove themselves right.

And the more right you are, the more angry they will get and they will go to even farther lengths to prove you wrong.

[Lmnop]

Sorry Vyuru, my last post seems like I was bent on disagreeing with you -- I did not mean it to seem that way. Moving on...

Imps do actually hit pretty hard, surprisingly. At least, they hit a 68 PLD pretty hard. I never watch the log closely enough but I'm quite sure I saw him take a 90 normal swing. If I had to guess, he prolly also got hit for 50 as often as he did for 70, but like I said I'm not good at paying attention. As a low def, low VIT warrior, every mob that attacks me has a very high range of potential damage, even when i put on the tricks. I just realized that when I got hit by that Imp, I could've very well had Berserk up and didn't notice, so I guess take my observation with a grain of salt.

At any rate, I truely believe a War/mnk could reduce damage taken to a level of a PLD, but I think a PLD could hit that same amount of damage taken and be able to provide the same DD potential + self cures + lots of shield blocks/flashes to negate incoming damage. I don't think my C+ Shield skill would cut it to be axe/shield, though Full Break is wonderful. Full Break + Dodge = I might just have a chance to evade an attack.

On what SharMarali said: That time when WARs moved from being SJ to being wonderful is marked by the belief that the all new war/nin would kick everything's ass. What's interesting about this is that the Warrior DD potential hadn't really changed. Honestly, a war/mnk with viking axe+shield @55 will do almost as good as a war/nin DD-wise. The difference was even more moot back then when everything and everyone sucked (woot! We got chain 5!!!) A War/thf still is and always has been the biggest, baddest DD levels 30-55. /nin didn't really bring anything new to the DD table, except for 0-penalty for stupid DD tactics (hello mob with yellow name. Meet Weapon Skill). <--- btw, I pulled with Mistral axe a couple times the other night. It's fun when you trust your tank will get hate within 6 shadows. Still retarded of me.

For the record (and I've noted this experience multiple times) that level 52 party was getting chain 5s pretty much every time on Antica. I started as war/nin when I was at the top of 50, but I was complaining about 2x SAM hate problems and talking about how I wish I had /mnk on. The blm was smart: he's like "you have mnk leveled?!? go change right now!" So I did, and it was wonderful for a level. But after that it was crabs that hit twice as hard. And every mob since then just hits harder (IT raptor once hit me for over 200 damage normal swing in defense swap in high 50s).

[Celeal]

Actually I tried war/mnk at level 60 as a DD using attack+ food. Alternative between Aggressor and focus, with a fair amount +acc gear. The acc. is not as good as sushi, but each hit usually lands at high range.

On the other hand, I think /SAM at level 50 or 60 is okay if there is a good tank in the party. Otherwise I think at level 70 with Seigan + Third Eye is more well-round for both offense and defense.

[Vyuru]

Sorry Vyuru, my last post seems like I was bent on disagreeing with you

Oh no, I didn't think that at all, it's just that this:

Ideally, the price would be bad exp for those w/out multiple weapons capped

Makes me think of Icemage's "how to fix blm" thread and the discussion on TP burn parties and rampage spammage, which was what my SC dream world comment was about.


At any rate, I truely believe a War/mnk could reduce damage taken to a level of a PLD, but I think a PLD could hit that same amount of damage taken and be able to provide the same DD potential + self cures + lots of shield blocks/flashes to negate incoming damage. I don't think my C+ Shield skill would cut it to be axe/shield, though Full Break is wonderful. Full Break + Dodge = I might just have a chance to evade an attack.


It would be interesting to compare a paladin's damage output who used Vorpal Blade/Spirits Within and a Gaxe using war/mnk using whatever WS in that level range that would work best.

It's a little hard for me to judge how good of a tank war/mnk could be, mostly because few people are willing to try something new in a exp party, and most of my own personal tanking experiances have been below level 40, although there was that time I tanked raptors in the Valley of Sorrow as dragoon since we had a bad ninja tank, that was fun. :P

There are for sure benefits, but also drawbacks as well, lack of self curing like a paladin being one of them.

There is also just so much that I don't know about how war/mnk works. For instance it seems that my Counter rate goes up whenever I use Dodge, but I don't know if that's just coincidental or if it has something to do with me being a mithra or what.

One thing I am a bit curious about are some of the enchanted items and their effectiveness. For instance the lvl 40 haste belt. I wouldn't mind using this when I level warrior depending on the potency and duration of the haste spell, my main craft is weaving and I am working on leatherworking anyway. Does anyone know how this particular item works? Or of any other enchanted items that might be useful?

[Lmnop]

Counter appears to be linked most to accuracy. If I had to guess, it goes through a pattern like this: Monster swings, there's a % chance that you can counter the hit. Let's say 10%(yeah right). if the hit lands in that %, a melee attack roll is made. If that attack would normally succeed, you counter the attack. Let's say you have 80% accuracy. You're looking at an 8% counter rate (80% of 10%).


One thing I am a bit curious about are some of the enchanted items and their effectiveness. For instance the lvl 40 haste belt. I wouldn't mind using this when I level warrior depending on the potency and duration of the haste spell, my main craft is weaving and I am working on leatherworking anyway. Does anyone know how this particular item works? Or of any other enchanted items that might be useful?

Tested by none other than Nny: 10% Haste. Lasts 3 minutes. STACKS with Haste. If you remove the belt, you lose the haste effect. I have one and use it for BCNMs. I've been really wanting to level Leathercraft and GP the item to make them. I'm such a prick, I wouldn't use one of these in exp unless you're getting Haste cast on you all the time as well. 10% Haste= not worth the party unless the party is so good that I'm getting another 15% from Haste Spell.

[IfritnoItazura]

It's a little hard for me to judge how good of a tank war/mnk could be, mostly because few people are willing to try something new in a exp party

WAR/MNK tank... "something new"...

Here I thought WAR/MNK was the original Level 5 to 75 tank. >_>; Silly me.

[TehTyr]

Counter appears to be linked most to accuracy. If I had to guess, it goes through a pattern like this: Monster swings, there's a % chance that you can counter the hit. Let's say 10%(yeah right). if the hit lands in that %, a melee attack roll is made. If that attack would normally succeed, you counter the attack. Let's say you have 80% accuracy. You're looking at an 8% counter rate (80% of 10%).

I counter a decent amount (well, about half as much as I evade, which isn't much for IT mobs), but I can tell you that if you go axe/shield, you can level both your axe and your shield if you counter.
(Gotta love that reduction in dmg from using shield, can't wait for +10 on hands <3)

If I had to put a number on it, I'd say with Great Axe I counter about 3 times in a battle with an Antican Secutor, which saves me about ~210HP while also inflicting 450+ dmg.
(Countered attacks seem to also have a plus to dmg, and tend to go critical a lot.)

[Lmnop]

I've noticed that part about high counter damage too. I remember a war/mnk tank I had once in the jungles who was hitting for like 30ish with his Great Axe, but would counter frequently for over 80 damage. I wonder if it just has a higher crit chance or something. but a lot of them were 50ish. Dunno what to make of it.

[Malacite]

A War/thf still is and always has been the biggest, baddest DD levels 30-55.

I'm going to have to disagree on that one >_>

Yeah, WAR/THF does kick most other job's asses for those levels (I experienced this myself personally and freaking loved it) but RNG/WAR with rice dumplings is still king, especially back before the nerf.


Sorry, the RNG in me (much as I dislike what SE has done to the job) just had to cry out. ^^b