The wrong kind of Mindset.

[Vair]

Now, before you read this I want it to be known that I really don't want to have any NIN > PLD / PLD > NIN Arguments. I just want to explain what I really think on the whole matter. In my eyes, discussion is fine, but I don't want to be childish about the whole thing.

THESE ARE JUST MY OPINIONS, NOT THE TRUTH.

First let me tell you how the party was going.

We didn't have a RDM and I was just fine with that, I don't mind having to stop and rest every couple of fight. But we did have a COR. Now, this COR basically refused to use the Refresh Roll on me and even the mages. Somehow it led to the classic "Who's better, PLD or NIN?" Well, I think it's kind of funny what this guy said.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/Vitruvian_griever/img_0055-1.png

As you can see he believes that PLD is only good for end-game tanking. Here's the problem: How can PLDs tank end-game when we have people like him running around that think that NINs are far superior to PLDs in EXP parties. What I mean to say is: How can we level if they don't want use leveling?

Now, he claims he was a level 75 PLD and a level 75 NIN and I have no reason not to believe him, but in that case how did he get PLD to 75 with his kind of mindset? IT doesn't make any sense that someone who believes that PLD basically has no place in EXP would go to great lengths to level it all the way.

Real topic of the thread:

Now when it comes down to it this is what I really have to say: How are PLDs supposed to tank end-game for these kind of guys when they'd much prefer a NIN in their party? "Sure, We'd love PLDs to tank for us end-game, but before that stay the fuck out of my EXP parties becuase you're uselss." is the basic gist I'm getting.

Later on in the fight after the COR still refuses to refresh the mages and me I just come out and say somthing Snotty and this is how it ends up:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/Vitruvian_griever/img_0056.png


Well, that's how things go. I just really want to say: Can we all just shut the hell up and play the game? Jeez. . .

[Mog]

lawl

He's not 75 pld and nin. If he was, he bought the account. Just ignore little kids and move on.

[Raydeus]

NIN > COR :rofl:

[Omni]

i think he was saying that nin are just more efficient than pld in xp pts. which is the truth. you cant deny that.

also, your view on nin tanking is from a bitter pld point of view. a good nin can keep hate until renkei, which is pretty much all that is needed. no tank will be able to keep hate with a war and blm going wild. dont blame the tank for that, blame the war and blm.

again, i dont think he was saying that pld dont belong in xp pts, he was just being an unnecessary ass by pointing out that nin is more efficient.

pld is great end game. i wouldnt take a nin main tank to dynamis or many of the nms. pld are just reliable but at a price of having someone watch over them and keep them healthy.

nin are great for slow attacking mobs. they are pretty much self reliant with the need for occasional spot heals.

both jobs are good, just different. players these days only care about xp/hr so that's the mindset you should be angry about, not the eternal pld vs nin feud.

pls dont turn this into another pld vs nin thread ^^

[Illuen]

Personally, as a WHM, I prefer PLD to NIN any day of the week. Sure, it does mean more healing for me, but I feel much safer with a PLD, simply because I don't have to worry about Hate bouncing quite as much, and I find it much harder if, for instance, the party gets hit with a bad AoE to pull hate off of a PLD by healing people up than it is from a NIN.

[Ziero]

Well last night I was lvling my war, when the pt started we had a good Pld tank. Other then AoE and one or two 'super' crabs, aka mobs that didn't get dispelled, the Pld never lost hate. We were able to get C2 easy, even though kills were slow, and didn't really have much down time. Only once did I actually have to use voke(I was a war) and that was only because we only had 4 people at the time, one left the pt and another went afk unnannounced. Though to be fair it was downtime and an accidental aggro so it's not his fault.

Then the Pld leaves and we get a Nin. A crappy nin mind you, but a nin none the less. I spend much of the rest of the night getting beat on while the nin spams a maro filled with JP writing, and Stun and Voke requests in auto translate. We have to rest after every fight, and when we get one link, we wipe and disband.

Now what does this tell us? Absolutely nothing of value. Comparing a good Pld to a Crappy nin won't solve anything. A single anecdotal story isn't the end all be all of this debate. The only thing that we can get out of this story is the simple and plain fact that player skill makes all the difference and that 90% of exping will not be at optimal conditions.

[Ziero]

no tank will be able to keep hate with a war and blm going wild. dont blame the tank for that, blame the war and blm.
I am a 56 War with the second best, if not the best, gear I can possibly obtain. That's acc rings, SFG, +1 peti, AF boots, V sallet ect. Pld never lost hate to me and I was using all my buffs with Brd and Cor buffs to boot.

Good Plds hold hate.

Edit: Sooo, when we gettin that nifty automerge thingie back? >_>

[Omni]

sorry, 56 isnt the pinnacle of war excellence, but that really isnt the point. ive pulled hate off plds as rng. its not that hard. what i meant by that statement was, if someone is over doing it. over nuking, using /jas, etc. they're going to pull hate. mnks pull hate from pld all the time. my monk is only 43 and i will pull hate from any tank. of course im using berserk, meat foods, and all the best gear at lv. 43 and letting go raging fist whenever i have tp. however, repeatedly doing such things isnt ever good. it just causes mages to waste mp that could be spent curing the pld.

on the flip side, when i was grinding on nin, i was able to hold hate perfectly fine until renkei. i rarely had those cases where the mob is running around. i have to put work into holding hate but its not as flimsy as most ppl make it out to be.

i think people just like using bad examples as their own examples to prove a point. like you said ziero, 1 bad experience doesnt mean squat.

[eticket109]

The irony of all of the NIN/PLD debates is that SE never really intended NIN to be a tanking job in the first place. It just so happens that NIN makes a damn good tank. Personally I have no preference to either one really so long as they have skill. I hardly notice one being better or worse compared to the overall player just downright sucking.

Either way, whether the COR agreed with a PLD tank or not shouldn't matter. Keeping the PLDs mp up has a positive effect for everyone. The 'x job sucks' argument as an excuse not to do your job doesn't fly.

[Vair]

i think people just like using bad examples as their own examples to prove a point. like you said ziero, 1 bad experience doesnt mean squat.

I'm being perfectly honest when I said the things I said. I don't use words as manipulation tools. Also, I said from "What I've seen." So no, I don't claim to know everything about everything. XD

[Mog]

pls dont turn this into another pld vs nin thread ^^

Too late.

[Ziero]

sorry, 56 isnt the pinnacle of war excellence, but that really isnt the point. ive pulled hate off plds as rng. its not that hard. what i meant by that statement was, if someone is over doing it. over nuking, using /jas, etc. they're going to pull hate. mnks pull hate from pld all the time. my monk is only 43 and i will pull hate from any tank. of course im using berserk, meat foods, and all the best gear at lv. 43 and letting go raging fist whenever i have tp. however, repeatedly doing such things isnt ever good. it just causes mages to waste mp that could be spent curing the pld.
on the flip side, when i was grinding on nin, i was able to hold hate perfectly fine until renkei. i rarely had those cases where the mob is running around. i have to put work into holding hate but its not as flimsy as most ppl make it out to be.
i think people just like using bad examples as their own examples to prove a point. like you said ziero, 1 bad experience doesnt mean squat.

Wait, I'm confused. 56 isn't a good lvl to use as an example but 43 is O.o. The situation is the same, it's just the people and the numbers that are different. I've had pts on my mnk where I could pull hate from Plds and I've had plds who could keep hate. I've had pts on my nin where a DD could pull hate and others where the same DD couldn't. My main point was the only thing really determining how good a job can be is the person playing it. And I've seen some very good Plds hold hate perfectly fine against some very decently equiped DDs going all out. But then again I've seen nins do the same thing.

I'm not into that whole nin vs pld thing, I'm all about the good player vs the bad player thing. And imo a good player on a 'weaker' job is much better then a bad player on a 'stronger' job.

[Icemage]

Let's try to un-derail the discussion by focusing on the issue of the first post, which is the conflict between people who want PLD tanks at end-game, but prefer to party with NIN tanks for XP.

Right now, PLD and BLM (and to a lesser extent, WHM) suffer from this problem. The thing is, those end-game players who really want the level 75 job X's are generally only going to go out of their way to help people they know in those jobs.

I'm more than happy to lend a hand to my LS mates, be it with AF or partying or whatnot, since I know I'll see some return on my investment later when those players reach level 75 and can bring that new flexibility to bear on our end-game activities. But for a complete stranger? I don't think so.

Does this make me a bad person? I certainly don't think so. PLDs really aren't as efficient MP-wise as a Ninja past level 37. BLMs really don't fit well into a TP-burn party (neither do WHMs, really, though they're "better"). That's the way things are right now. Inviting a job that isn't optimal is a deliberate sacrifice, because you know that your party efficiency is "probably" going to take a hit.

If you want to use the argument that these jobs are useful at end-game, you also have to supply the reasoning behind why other peolpe should care; if they don't do end-game, then they have no reason to care. If they're not planning to do end-game with these people, then they have a reason NOT to help them since that's just more competition in cases where there are limited opportunities (though this is a very mild negative - however, it's not offset by any positives). So what's left? Charity? Pity? Guilt? I don't like any of those reasons.


Icemage

[Jei]

Some of my PT has that conversation as well. It irritates me a lot, but well, I don't want to jump in and discusss with other ppl when that happens. Waste my energy and ruin my day if I do : /

[Omni]

Wait, I'm confused. 56 isn't a good lvl to use as an example but 43 is O.o. The situation is the same, it's just the people and the numbers that are different. I've had pts on my mnk where I could pull hate from Plds and I've had plds who could keep hate. I've had pts on my nin where a DD could pull hate and others where the same DD couldn't. My main point was the only thing really determining how good a job can be is the person playing it. And I've seen some very good Plds hold hate perfectly fine against some very decently equiped DDs going all out. But then again I've seen nins do the same thing.
I'm not into that whole nin vs pld thing, I'm all about the good player vs the bad player thing. And imo a good player on a 'weaker' job is much better then a bad player on a 'stronger' job.

we seem to be talking about 2 different things. to avoid further confusion.

if someone wants to take hate, they will. thats all ive said.
and i wasnt talking about you w/ regards to pld vs nin.



efficiency is the question at hand here. with regards to that concern, nin has the advantage. minus how safe you feel or how you like your tank or w/e.

[Hantz]

Well, having just become a COR, I think I know what's going on.

After receiving my first Phantom Roll, I understood our true role in a party:

To distract our PT members when we have a brain-fart and use less than optimal rolls, by bringing up PLD vs NIN and using inflated job levels to exaggerate our firsthand experience.

It was a magical day.

[DakAttack]

1-37: Having fun trying to pull hate off of Paladins on purpose
37-72: Having fun trying to pull hate off of Ninjas on purpose

:|

I'm not bashing one or the other, I'm just pointing out that as a damage dealer pulling hate off of Paladins was easy before 37, and almost impossible afterwards. Level 37+ Ninjas, even though they have that second Utsusemi, are the ones that I can pull hate off of.

But 65+ pulling hate usually means swift death. ; ;

[Aeni]

1-37: Having fun trying to pull hate off of Paladins on purpose
37-72: Having fun trying to pull hate off of Ninjas on purpose

:|

I'm not bashing one or the other, I'm just pointing out that as a damage dealer pulling hate off of Paladins was easy before 37, and almost impossible afterwards. Level 37+ Ninjas, even though they have that second Utsusemi, are the ones that I can pull hate off of.

But 65+ pulling hate usually means swift death. ; ;

It's something I know first hand as a DRK. Believe me, every single NIN I partied with on my DRK couldn't keep hate off of me. Even if it wasn't me, I skewed the hate so someone else got it bad (Because I push the NIN lower on the hate list than the BLM, for example)

That's w/o using job abilities like Souleater. Do you realize how much I f*cking sacrificed for NINs in the PTs I was in? I couldn't use Souleater. Isn't that pathetic?

Of course, with SATA, I could use it, if and only if I used it on SATA and not anytime else. Last Resort was iffy. Some NINs held hate better than others, so LR would cause a different reaction.

With Paladins, however, I could use Souleater and leave it on for the full 60 seconds without guilt or irreparable harm about 80% of the time...

[Vair]

Let's try to un-derail the discussion by focusing on the issue of the first post, which is the conflict between people who want PLD tanks at end-game, but prefer to party with NIN tanks for XP.

Right now, PLD and BLM (and to a lesser extent, WHM) suffer from this problem. The thing is, those end-game players who really want the level 75 job X's are generally only going to go out of their way to help people they know in those jobs.

I'm more than happy to lend a hand to my LS mates, be it with AF or partying or whatnot, since I know I'll see some return on my investment later when those players reach level 75 and can bring that new flexibility to bear on our end-game activities. But for a complete stranger? I don't think so.

Does this make me a bad person? I certainly don't think so. PLDs really aren't as efficient MP-wise as a Ninja past level 37. BLMs really don't fit well into a TP-burn party (neither do WHMs, really, though they're "better"). That's the way things are right now. Inviting a job that isn't optimal is a deliberate sacrifice, because you know that your party efficiency is "probably" going to take a hit.

If you want to use the argument that these jobs are useful at end-game, you also have to supply the reasoning behind why other peolpe should care; if they don't do end-game, then they have no reason to care. If they're not planning to do end-game with these people, then they have a reason NOT to help them since that's just more competition in cases where there are limited opportunities (though this is a very mild negative - however, it's not offset by any positives). So what's left? Charity? Pity? Guilt? I don't like any of those reasons.


Icemage

Yes, this is basically what I'm trying to put through. I did not want to start a whole PLD v. NIN thread, we already have enough of those. What I'm talking about is getting certain jobs to end-game like PLD when people don't want them in their EXP parties.

[Ziero]

Well in that case it's simple.

People are making a pt, they need a tank, only Plds are looking. Guess who just got a pt? Or as stated by many people already, *good* nins may be more efficiant, but the average pld makes pts *feel* safer. So pts with strong DDs will invite Plds over Nins because they feel it helps them more.

For example, you're making a pt, you need a tank and only three possible tanks are looking. A nin who you know sucks, a pld you pted with before and was good but not the best, and a Pld who you never pld with but has a detailed search comment telling you everything you want to know and a high rank. All three are in the same zone and all three are the same lvl and the same Tnl. Who would you invite?

Me, I'd go for the Pld I know. Since I know him and what he can do it makes me more comfortable in the pt.

Endgame Meripos, things are different. But 10-70 is a long way to lvl if you *must* have only the 'best'.

[Rai]

I leveled PLD PRE-RNG-NERF, also around lvl 55-65 I leveled often with a freaking crazy RNG. Yes he could and did pull hate off me at times, but unless he got one shot'd because he was to busy spamming bullets at the mob to recast his shadows after the pull, I was always able to get the mob back on me before he got himself killed.

He told me in tell, I was the greatest tank he had ever leveled with, because he hardly ever died when he partied with me. It was fast paced fights, where he and the BLM would go nearly all out.

Now having lvl'd NIN to 60 so far I know there would be no way to save the life of such a RNG. And I have been told I am a damn good NIN too.

But PLD = safety for the party. NIN is fun too but I don't feel the control I have as PLD.

[Lmnop]

Unfortunately, I believe he has both PLD and NIN leveled to 75. Idiots level fast and learn nothing. You can level PLD to 75 w/out ever using flash and only voking once/fight. Just seek and the invites will come. Part of why I hate FFXI is because there's no karma -- people can level a job to 75 with ease and then assume they know everything about it and everyone will believe them. My advice to any player is to never say "so and so is 75 xxx job and he says to yyy with my zzz." Do the research, observe what you would do with the tools at your disposal, augment with unbiased knowledge from www.FFXIOnline.com.

Like Omni, I don't want to dip into Nin vs Pld. I'll say this: Nins do hold hate well. The biggest difference between a NIN's hate levels and a PLD's seem to be the last half of the fight. This is where I can slap on my +17 enmity and Provoke and usually get hate off of a NIN (sometimes it's still not enough with some better NINs) and I have no chance of getting it off of a PLD. For a War, I try to keep my hate levels relatively low, when I can. Usually I try to use JAs right before engaging, for instance, just to remove unneeded hate spikes from the hate list.

So what's left? Charity? Pity? Guilt? I don't like any of those reasons.

I agree 100%. I just got in an argument the other day... well first, I should preface this by saying that I hate the SMN job in its current state. If you have a good argument as to why it's not broken, good for you, that's not the point of the impending anecdote. Anywho, I state my reasons as to why the job is horrendously inefficient in party settings and arguably overpowered end-game and the idiot in my party (I was doing a pick-up ENM) with his gung-ho 75 jobs wants to tell me that SMN is just fine because it's so damn good end-game. I say so F***ing what, it needs fixed because the first 70 levels simply mean nothing.

Point is, you cannot argue a job's value because of a few specific applications, such as a SMN's use in promies or on Wyrms. The same holds true for PLD, but even more in a sense, because there are so many more instances of Nin-only mobs than there are Pld-only. Though still, my point of view is that there's nothing wrong with either job but the perspective of the other players.

PS: I'm obviously very excited about October update, SMN will finally be able to contribute in the time between keeping Fenrir's buff on the party and won't have to completely turn their backs on their AWESOME buffs once they hit level 70 because of sudden BNS attacks (Big Numbers Syndrome).

PPS: my LS recently killed Charybdis with a PLD tank and about 10 people backing him up, many of them in the 60-65 region. It's not a trio, but not too shabby.

[Celeal]

Why can't people just enjoy the game?

/sigh ....

[Mog]

Why can't people just enjoy the game?

/sigh ....

This is nothing compared to the drama of endgame, I hear.

[Icemage]

PS: I'm obviously very excited about October update, SMN will finally be able to contribute in the time between keeping Fenrir's buff on the party and won't have to completely turn their backs on their AWESOME buffs once they hit level 70 because of sudden BNS attacks (Big Numbers Syndrome).

I left SMN specifically off of my list of jobs due to the impending changes (which I feel will significantly improve SMN at every level). I totally agree that, as things stand right this moment SMN are hosed just as much as PLD and BLM are (and have been forever).


PPS: my LS recently killed Charybdis with a PLD tank and about 10 people backing him up, many of them in the 60-65 region. It's not a trio, but not too shabby.
That's actually a good achievement. I've killed Charybdis... well... more times than I care to remember now. PLD tank works fine, but you need pretty good gear to tank it, due to his penchant to Quadruple Attack as well as the most devastating Cross Reaper attack. A WHM or /WHM who's quick on the Erase will also save you a lot of grief.


Icemage

[DrivenTooFar]

To the OP, I would say that statics are your friend. I realize that this is not always an option but maybe you should strive for it. As a Paladin I have been staticing with my White Mage wife pretty much my entire career. Around 60 a Monk from my Linkshell started partying with us and so did some Warroir that we met. Because of the way me and my wife played they won't party with anyone but us. With four of us in place we usually pick up a refresher (RDM or BRD, both great in their own ways) and another DD (BLM preferred). The Rdm might actually stick with us in the static too.

So what is my point to all of this? I never hear anything about Pld vs. Nin. I work with people that are happy with the way that I tank and I never have to deal with the BS. Now from what I hear this isn't probably as efficient as having a Nin tank but no one I party with ever seems to care. I personally cannot comment because I have never partied with a high level Ninja. The main thing is that I always get to party with respectful people.

[Asir]

When I was leveling BLM, I hated having to hold back with a NIN tank. The majority of the time, I could only do a couple Elemental Enfeebles, two nukes and an MB (if I was lucky to get a party that used SC). Casting any more then that would result in me getting very hurt... Or dead. With a PLD, I was usually able to relax and actually do my job of killing mobs quickly. Then again, I was also one of the few BLMs that would stick close to my PLDs in case I did accidently pull hate so I could be Covered quick and easy.

Since becoming a PLD, I have been quite happy knowing that if the crap hits the fan, I can save my party easily. Even when dual tanking with a NIN, I know that if anyone is going to die, it will be me first since it takes very little time for me to cement hate to myself. Is it odd to be proud of that fact?

[Raydeus]

Why can't people just enjoy the game?

/sigh ....

Because to some people this isn't just a game, so for them it isn't about how much fun they are getting out of the time they spend playing.

It seems for them it's about how the game makes them feel about themselves (to compensate RL stuff maybe?). So, if they feel someone else is better than them they will do what they can to bring people back to "their level" and then try to do what the nerfed guys did in the first place. Or at least that's the kind of attitude I've seen in a lot of players.

And some actually believe they are investing time in their character and that gear and bragging rights are more important than fun. So the game becomes much more than a game, a game's purpose is to provide entertainment but many players simply forget about that.

Not much you can do about it really. /comfort :thumbsup:



PS > This has nothing to do with the RL > XI stuff, the thing is people seem to be unable to differentiate between "taking the game seriously" and "being serious about the game".

Taking the game seriously is what I'm talking about in this post.

Being serious about the game is referring to that even though it is a game that's no excuse to do whatever you want like dropping out of a party without giving a fair warning or be a bad player in general. The game is about fun, but that doesn't mean do whatever you like whenever you like (although for some people that's the definition of fun eh? :biggrin: ).

So, considering the game only for it's fun value doesn't mean you are gonna be a crappy player, some players actually find doing their job well to be really fun. Heck I even have fun soloing skill even though it takes an hour to solo 1-2 skill lvls. :thumbsup:

[Lmnop]

Because to some people this isn't just a game, so for them it isn't about how much fun they are getting out of the time they spend playing.
It seems for them it's about how the game makes them feel about themselves (to compensate RL stuff maybe?). So, if they feel someone else is better than them they will do what they can to bring people back to "their level" and then try to do what the nerfed guys did in the first place. Or at least that's the kind of attitude I've seen in a lot of players.
And some actually believe they are investing time in their character and that gear and bragging rights are more important than fun. So the game becomes much more than a game, a game's purpose is to provide entertainment but many players simply forget about that.
Not much you can do about it really. /comfort :thumbsup:


I realize you are well-intentioned, but I see this as basically a prejudice flame. The fact that I seek balance in this game has nothing to do with whether or not I view this game as real.

People always tell me to level and my friends don't understand why I hate to exp so much. Your facts are backwards. The general populace racing to 75 aren't "enjoying the game" in my book, they're doing their damndest to "beat" the game. I enjoy party mechanics, is that so bad? When you have 6 GOOD players working together, it's a well-tuned instrument of exping warfare. And I love that. I drop all parties that aren't that. And guess what? SURPRISE! 33 months of this game and the only reason I'm even level 66 is because I give in and stay with crap-tastic parties every once in a while. This is why I say the game has no Karma -- you do best by choosing a job to "sacrifice." AKA, level one job to 75 fast, get into end-game before it gets flooded, get gear, get money, level all other jobs with everything you'd ever want with them.

NOW, having said that, let's remember this:
Though still, my point of view is that there's nothing wrong with either job but the perspective of the other players.


And I hate PLD vs NIN debates. Yes, I know mages will tell us how much safer they feel with a Pld, yes others will tell us how much better the exp is with a nin... whatever. If it's unbalanced, fix it. S-E's JOB is to try to keep this game balanced. That's why we pay them so much.

[Raydeus]

I realize you are well-intentioned, but I see this as basically a prejudice flame. The fact that I seek balance in this game has nothing to do with whether or not I view this game as real.

Well I wasn't talking about you when I wrote that, I'm talking about the players in general and their attitude, there's always something that needs to be "balanced" in this game, if it wasn't burn parties it would be RDM solo skills, or SMN 2 HR or WAR Rampage damage or WHM Hexa, or any other thing you can think of.

My point is that people waste way too much time looking at what others have that they don't rather than simply enjoying the time they spend playing.

It's really that simple.

I'm sorry you thought my post was referring to you or something, it wasn't. :thumbsup:

[Lmnop]

I don't think you were attacking me personally, more like I think I meet your description of how I feel about the game but not why I feel that way. Like you said all cats are red. And I say I'm a blue cat.

I will always find unbalance as long as it exists. I guess it's just how some of us are doomed to be. At any rate, I really want to put emphasis on this part:

I realize you are well-intentioned...

Don't worry, I hold nothing against you. Just try not to hold anything against people like me. =)

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT back on topic (maybe? what's the topic?)... Any time you're in a situation where someone says a job is good because of how they perform in any one situation, they're being anecdotal and that doesn't support the thesis that the job is overall balanced. If they're right then the job needs fixed. More likely, as is the case with Mr can't-refresh-a-party Corsair, they're idiots who don't understand potential.

[Cometgreen]

So, basically, you had a crappy COR who wouldn't do his job because he doesn't like PLD tanks in xp. I would have expected the leader to kick him/her.

Oh, and PLD > NIN. *cough*

[Vyuru]

Does this make me a bad person? I certainly don't think so. PLDs really aren't as efficient MP-wise as a Ninja past level 37. BLMs really don't fit well into a TP-burn party (neither do WHMs, really, though they're "better"). That's the way things are right now. Inviting a job that isn't optimal is a deliberate sacrifice, because you know that your party efficiency is "probably" going to take a hit.


Well, I would have to disagree. Yeah, I prefer paladin tanks over ninja tanks, I've had some crappy pld tanks, and I've had some crappy ninja tanks. But where is the sacrifice to your party efficiency vs one or the other?

Generaly speaking here:

Ninjas can tank fairly well for the first little bit, but then they lose hate and can only snatch it back at intervals, and they are losing hate to ME, a dragoon who is doing her best to avoid hate at all costs, and I have average gear, I am not decked out in +1 everything, it's good gear, but it's really what I'd expect any DD to have.

Yes, I have had ninjas who were good tanks, but these are normally players who are the kind of player who you would want to take with you on a prom run, or some other similar type of mission, and from my experiance, these players are very far and few between.

Paladin tanks on the other hand, rarely lose hate to anyone, unless it's a really decked out monk, or arrow spamming ranger pre nerf.

What really sums it up best for me, ninjas need a thief in order to tank as well as a paladin, paladins do not and a thief+pld combo means that pld is never going to lose hate.

but back to party mechanics, so a whm has to spend a little more mp to heal a pld, so what? Eat cookies, sub blm, and bring a dark staff. I see FAR too many whm just standing there inbetween pulls letting refresh refill their mp pool.

efficiency is the question at hand here. with regards to that concern, nin has the advantage. minus how safe you feel or how you like your tank or w/e.


Yes, but when the ninja can't hold hate, party members are being hurt, whm is spending more mp to heal everyone, and then the whm starts getting wailed on by the mob, so either I or someone else in the party with provoke has to grab the mob's attention and draw it off the whm while the ninja takes time to recast shadows, and then we have to wait for the ninja to get back hate.

By the end of the fight at least one or more party members have had a close call with death, even with good ninjas this can happen, with bad ninjas it just happens alot more often.

Or:

Paladin tanks, paladin requires more mp to heal, but hate stays in one place and unless the mob does something crazy and unusual, no one else should get hurt unless you are pre level 60 and setting up for SATA.

Ninjas are the "do you feel lucky" tanks, even good ninjas will have their bad times, a paladin will BE there taking the hits, and he even has cover for when he loses hate somehow.

So I guess it's pick which sort of effciency that you like. A ninja is more efficient in terms of damage reduction, a paladin is more efficient in terms of hate control. For me, party efficiency is that no one dies, and the hate stays on the tank, hence why I favor paladin tanks.

I must say that I HIGHLY dislike hearing (X job) slows down the exp, or Y job isn't as effecient as Z job.

It may be true, but that is no reason not to invite them. Pre ranger nerf, no job was as effecient at exp as rangers, so why invite anything else? It saddens me that people have still not learned from that.


As for TP burns and ninjas supposedly "superior" role in them......

All these /nin parties are saying is that with no tank we can get a ton of exp fast, that is NOT saying ninja tanks are better than pld tanks, it's saying that even the ninjas aren't going to bother tanking, so everyone had better sub /nin so that you can have 4-5 DD/tanks in the party at any one time.

[Vyuru]

Another way to view the who is the best exp tank, ninja or paladin? Could simply be look at Gaxe using Warriors and dual axe using warriors.

Gaxe using warriors do alot of damage, and their break weapon skills are highly beneficial to the party, alot of times raising everyone's damage, and in an indirect way, being a very damaging WS if you take that into account.

Full Break can close distortion, and open/close dark, the other breaks open detonation and open/close fire, not sure if it's liquefaction or not...

Dual axes and dual weild let's you get in an extra hit on a WS, making them slightly extra damaging. Axe WS also tend to be very powerful, and hit fast. Overall I would say that Axes deal more damage than Gaxes, but Gaxe WS help the party while Axe WS help yourself.

Both are good, and I do not think you could argue the superiority of one over the other, you can have a preference, but there is no one right way.

The same with ninja vs paladin, both are good, both are beneficial to the party, I don't think there is anything wrong with one vs another, it's just a different playing style.

[eva00r]

I'm sorry to tell you the truth that NIN is better than PLD in merit XP party. I have PLD and NIN, both 75. I got PLD to 75 first and after that I got NIN to 75. It was like 20-25% more exp per party when I tank as a NIN because the down time was a lot lesser than PLD.

I gained most of my PLD merits from a NIN.

[Celeal]

I'm sorry to tell you the truth that NIN is better than PLD in merit XP party. I have PLD and NIN, both 75. I got PLD to 75 first and after that I got NIN to 75. It was like 20-25% more exp per party when I tank as a NIN because the down time was a lot lesser than PLD.

I gained most of my PLD merits from a NIN.

I am assuming those are melee burn parties.

I am wondering... is there a "tank" in those merit parties? Are those level 75 NIN actually "tanking" in those parties?

I am not saying that NIN gain faster exp in merit party vs PLD is wrong. But saying NIN "tank" better than PLD in those melee burn parties can be misleading.

[Susurrus]

If this means anything, when I went and played WHM in seperate merit PTs in Caedarva (sp?), one with a NIN tank, and another with a PLD.

I was much more MP efficient with the PLD tank. All I had to do was cast Regen III, and he could take care of him self most of the time. Especially against Imps. If the Imp did AOE silence, the NIN only had whatever remaining shadows were up before they'd be getting slammed hard. If it was still a couple shadows, then it wouldn't be a big deal. But, this is not always the case. So every time we fought imps (which was a lot), I had to be on my toes and got little time to rest. PLD, however, could stand to take quite a bit of abuse before silence was needed (especially Regen III w/ 2 Regen merits = 22HP a second back), so I could always get a tic or 2 of mp in before I had to silena him. It worked great.

[Liquidedust]

Another way to view the who is the best exp tank, ninja or paladin? Could simply be look at Gaxe using Warriors and dual axe using warriors.

Gaxe using warriors do alot of damage, and their break weapon skills are highly beneficial to the party, alot of times raising everyone's damage, and in an indirect way, being a very damaging WS if you take that into account.

(don't flame me too much didn't spellcheck it all)

Weapons
I'll face the Greataxe vs. Axe debate first.

The sad fact with Greataxe vs. Axes are the damage over time when you compare the two weapon types.

Great Axes have massive potential I don't deny that, but you need absolutely insane Attack ratings in order to be able to reach the full potential of the Great Axes compared to an Axe.

On an average exp mob the average GAxe has a delay of 504 and an Axe a delay of 276.

While the GAxe has the potential to his basically three times as hard as an Axe the truth is really the average Great Axe hit would be closer to hitting x1.5 to x1.8 times harder then that of a regular Axe. (this is due to the damage formua being skewered towards one-handed weapons)

This coupled with the delay of a Great Axes compared the Axes actually makes a Warrior that is single wielding an Axe to outdamage their Great Axe Breathren at around a 1.25:1 ratio in melee damage alone.

The WARs that dual-wield Axes at 50+ with dual-wield II will skewer this even further in their favour since they will hit faster for more damage over time while building TP (up to around a 1.4:1 to 1.5:1 ratio from melee damage alone).

Don't get me wrong here though, Great Axe is wonderful and Shield Break is the weapon skill to use from level 10-30. But then again accuracy really isn't much of an issue before level 40, or at any level thereafter if you use sushi, but after that Shield Break start to loose its appeal.

At levels 30->50 WAR/THF for damage dealing and SA+Sturmwind as Fragmentation closer is probably the most efficient thing you can do for a party and Great Axe is quite effective since it will kill a mob so much faster (SA Sturmwind is very capable of doing 400-600 damage to close off Fragmentation and end fights a lot quicker).

After 50, and especially at 55+ with Rampage, Great Axes really starts to fall behind due to the Damage Formula being more and more skewered towards one-handed weapons (and the above 1.5:1 ratio is reached for Axe:Great Axe melee damage).

At 60 Raging Rush comes into play for Great Axes user and the damage compared quite well on high IT mobs as long as they aren't overly evasive (since you have to land all three hits to match Rampage). Still Axes trump Great Axes in damage once again through the damage formula being advantagoues towards one-handers in regular melee damage.

At 65 we do get Full Break that can close Darkness. Sadly Full Break doesn't deal a lot of damage on mobs above T in order to validate it being used as a Skillchain closer (think around 300-500 with SA unless you get a lucky Double Attack). However lets also look at the weaponskills we can open/close Darkness for.
Swift Blade
Blade: TenNeither of these are weaponskills that will be used in a regular experience points party, and both are rather weak as closers.

There are twentysix (26) weaponskills at level 65/66 that can open Distortion for Full Break as well. However three of these weaponskill you can also open Light for with Mistral Axe, and since they are all capable of very high damage they are preferred as Light Skillchain closers phasing out Great Axe for Axe once again.

All the other weaponskills that can open Distortion for Full break are either phased out already or preferred as closers as well (due to higher damage then Full Break or there are just better options from those weapons for skillchains at this level).


Weaponskills that can close light if Mistral Axe is used as an opener
Dragon Kick
Shark Bite
Spinning Slash
Weaponskills that can open Distortion for Full Break
Flaming Arrow, Piercing Arrow, Dulling Arrow, Sidewinder, Blast Arrow
Howling Fist
Blade: Chi
Tachi: Enpi, Tachi: Goten
Hot Shot, Split Shot, Sniper Shot, Slug Shot, Blast Shot
Vorpal Scythe
Double Thrust, Thunder Thrust, Raiden Thrust, Vorpal Thrust, Skewer
Power Slash
Poison Nails, Crescent FangFull Break can also open Fusion for the following weaponskills at level 65/66.
Arching Arrow
Mistral Axe
Heavy Shot
Wheeling ThrustSadly neither of these are a particular strong closer and these skillchain options will most likely be overlooked.

This makes our nice and shiny new Great Axe WS really just a big glorified debuff move, which sadly all earth-based monster have a high resistance towards (see below). The level of 65 is all use we will basically see for Full Break, mainly since we don't learn Mistral Axe until level 66.

Then at 71 Full Break is promtly replaced by Steel Cyclone which happens to occupy the exact same SC slot as Full Break and also does a lot more damage then Full Break (or any other Great Axe weaponskill up until now).

At levels 70/74+ the burn style parties basically become dominant and while targetting T/VT mobs Great Axe just cannot keep up to an Axe. Actually to clarify, an Axe cannot keep up unless you go all out offensive with either /DRG or /DRK with Great Axe (however this will most likely make you be face down once per hour no matter you want it or not).

While you can use /NIN with Great Axe the subjob is sadly not tailored to take full effect of Great Axe, while Axes benefit from it a lot more (delay reduction for more damage over time). And in addition with shadows for a great defense you will sadly not see Great Axe used a lot.


Break Weaponskills
Sadly breaks WS's are overwritten by eva up (shield break), def up (armor break) or atk up (weapon break) so if a mob does any of these moves the effects of your break WS are automatically null.

And sadly the mobs the break WS's are most beneficial against have exactly these moves or are resistant to that particular break WS's effects (since all breaks are tied to a certain element).

So while the break WS's are very beneficial to a party the effects are usually very short due to monster effectivly overwriting/replacing the debuffs with their own buffs.Information on Break WS's compiled from:
http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=posts&p=2052298#2052298
http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=posts&p=1582061#1582061
Buffs which overwrite/replace Shield Break
Beetle: Rhino Guard
Greater Bird: Feather Barrier
Pugil: Water Shield
Antica: Sand Veil
Tonberry: SighBuffs which overwrite/replace Armor Break
Crawler: Cocoon
Crab: Scissor Guard
Antica: Sand Shield
Orc: Arm Block
Yagudo: Parry
Qudav: Shell GuardBuffs which overwrite/replace Weapon break
MNK: Boost
WAR/Yagudo/Orc: Warcry
Scorpion: Sharp Strike (unconfirmed)
Dhalmel: Berserk (unconfirmed)
Bomb: Berserk (unconfirmed)Buffs which overwrite/replace Full Break
Tonberry: Sigh
Antica: Sand ShieldSo if you don't fight a mob that can overwrite your break WS you should use it but mostly when the break WS is most beneficial (Armor Break vs. Crabs for example) it will also stay on for a very short duration since they can easily overwrite and cancel out your debuff.

In addition each Break WS has an associated element and will last for a duration based on resist of the monster and at what TP you use your break WS.

Base duration of a break weaponskill is 3 minutes at 100%, 4 minutes at 200% and 5 minutes at 300%
Shield Break (Ice Element)
Armor Break (Wind Element)
Weapon Break (Water Element)
Full Break (Earth Element)There are 3 scenarios when a Break WS is performed - Full effect, Half resist, Total Resist.
Total Resist - usually when the enemy is strong against the element of the Break WS itself.
For example: Using Shield Break vs Skeleton enemies (they have high resist vs Ice).
That means there will be no evade down for the enemy.
Half Resist - usually when the enemy has no weakness/strength against the Break WS.
This means the time interval of which the Break is valid is halved.
For example, Shield Break, if not half resisted, has around a 3 minute window of which evade down is in effect, but if half resist, it only is in effect for 1 minute and a half.
Full effect - usually when the enemy has an weakness to the Break WS.
For example, Shield Break vs Crawlers. It has full effect in that 3 minutes
I could list every mobs weakness and strength in the game but I will compile some of the most common exp mob families in the game to show what breaks they are strong/weak against.Beasts
Coeurls including Torama Weak towards Full Break.
Dhalmels Strong resistance versus Full Break.Vermin
Beetles Weak towards Shield Break (but can overwrite the effect from them),
Strong resistance versus Full Break.
Crawlers Weak towards Shield Break,
Strong resistance versus Full Break.
Flies Weak towards Shield Break,
Strong resistance versus Armor Break
Spiders Weak towards Shield Break,
Strong resistance versus Full Break.Plants
Mandragora Weak towards Shield Break,
Strong resistance versus Full Break.Aquans
Crabs Weak towards Shield Break,
Strong resistance versus Weapon Break.
Pugils & Jagils Weak towards Shield Break (but can overwrite the effect from them),
Strong resistance versus Weapon Break.Birds
Colibri Weak towards Shield Break,
Strong Resistance to all the other Break weaponskills.
Bats, Triple Weak towards Shield Break.
Strong resistance versus Armor Break.
Bats, Single Strong resistance versus Armor Break.
Greater Birds Weak towards Shield Break (but can overwrite the effect from them).Undead
Skeletons Basically Immune towards Shield Break.Dragons
Puks Weak towards Shield Break,
Strong Resistance versus Armor BreakBeastmen
Gigas Strong resistance versus Shield Break.
Sahagin Strong resistance versus Weapon Break.
Yagudo Weak against Shield Break,
Strong Resistance versus Armor Break. Full Break can close distortion, and open/close dark, the other breaks open detonation and open/close fire, not sure if it's liquefaction or not...

Dual axes and dual weild let's you get in an extra hit on a WS, making them slightly extra damaging. Axe WS also tend to be very powerful, and hit fast. Overall I would say that Axes deal more damage than Gaxes, but Gaxe WS help the party while Axe WS help yourself.

Both are good, and I do not think you could argue the superiority of one over the other, you can have a preference, but there is no one right way.

The same with ninja vs paladin, both are good, both are beneficial to the party, I don't think there is anything wrong with one vs another, it's just a different playing style.

As stated above Axe will perform very much stronger then Great Axe, and a lot of break weaponskills can be overwritten by experience mobs we have chosen to exp on (and for a reason, since these mobs are a lot simpler then other options for the same experience points).

The only Break weaponskill you will use on a regular basis is Shield Break, since basically everything is weak towards it.

However accuracy is usually not an issue in an experience points party since the mobs we usually chose to exp on are comparably non-evasive to other mobs at the same level (with the slight exception of Toramas in which I can see an application for Shield Break).

From level 30->50 the most damaging combo is Greataxe and SA Sturmwind for WAR but that is at the expense of dropping your Break weaponskills. And at 48~50 most WARs will switch to /NIN an dual-wield Viking Axes (+20 acc is just impossible to say no against for a WAR).

From 50 onwards Greataxe can at some level match Axe damage melee+WS if you fight IT mobs only, but the moment you face VT or below Axes will just blow Great Axes away with almost 50% per fight (a WARs damage is basically 60-70% regular melee hits and 30-40% Weaponskills).

Dont' get me wrong, I love Greataxes as WAR :) but if I have an option to benefit the party greater thru actual faster kills with /NIN and Axes I will choose that option.

Then again I am very interested in /SAM and Greataxe mainly since I have Axe capped up to level 72 already thanks to BST (WAR65 right now).

Oh and for a sense of completeness, Break WS's with the exception of Full break close Fusion and Impactation and the following weaponskills can open Fusion for them.
Flaming Arrow, Dulling Arrow
Spinning Axe
Spinning Attack
Tachi: Kagero
Hot Shot, Sniper Shot
Full Swing
Burning Blade, Red Lotus Blade
PunchThe following weaponskill can open Impactation for the break weaponskills to close.
Blast Arrow
Smash Axe
Raging Rush
Skullbreaker
Blade: To
Tachi: Goten, Tachi: Yukikaze
Blast Shot
Shadow of Death, Guilliotine
Frostbite, Freezebite
Megalith Throw, Axe KickMight have missed some but ah well I think that is all of them.

[Armando]

Liquidedust, that was a good post, and you mean well, but there's some misinformation I'd like to correct.

The first thing is that there is no discrepancy between the calculations for a Great Axe and an Axe. In fact, there's no difference between the calculations for one-handed weapons and two-handed weapons. The formulas aren't skewed in favor of one or the other. If you have a Great Axe with 80 DMG and an Axe with 40 DMG, the Great Axe will do twice the damage as the Axe. Attack affects them both equally as well (i.e. you don't need Attack to make the most out of Great Axe as most people erroneously believe) so no matter what your PDIF is, the proportions between their damage would remain the same; Great Axe would still be doing twice the damage.

The problem lies elsewhere. Throughout the game, Great Axes in general have better DMG/second ratios than Axes. However, as the game progresses, Axe's DMG/sec ratios keep improving and getting closer to Great Axe's (the beginning of this trend is well marked by Combat Caster's Axes at Lv.40, and their HQ versions.) For the most part, an Axe has about half the DMG of a Great Axe, but has somewhat more than half of the GA's Delay (hence their lower DMG/sec.) However, when you start Dual Wielding, you're seriously skewing the DMG/sec ratio. Suddenly, Axes are just as fast as Great Axes with just Dual Wield I, and with Dual Wield II, they pull ahead. What's more, endgame axes have some really sick added stats (+5 Acc, +18 Attack in only one of two weapon slots?) as opposed to Great Axes, which stay "plain."

The skewing of the DMG/sec ratios and the stacking of the bonuses found in one-handed axes is what skews the damage in their favor, not the damage formulas. Add on top of that the fact that Joyeuse and multi-hit weapons in general are broken, and that there is no worthwhile multi-hit Great Axe, and it's not hard to see why Great Axe lags behind. The damage formulas work perfectly. Want Great Axes to be better? All S-E has to do is up their stats. Up their DMG and/or cut down their Delay until it matches dual wielded DMG/sec ratios, and add some nifty +stats on them. That'd level the playing field. Of course, since a fair part of Axe's potential comes from the sub job, S-E opted for a more balanced approach and made a counterpart sub that makes two-handed weapons stronger and faster, while giving some defensive abilities in order to compete with Utsusemi's usefulness. Of course, I'm talking about the changes to SAM and /SAM.

Note that WAR/THF with a Great Axe could probably keep up, or WAR/DRG for that matter, but they'd still be lacking one crucial element: the ability to nullify damage.

The other point that I wanted to address were Breaks. It isn't so much as misinformation, but rather I'd like to offer a different perspective on it. Basically, I don't believe the overwriting of Breaks to be a problem. We can only efficiently stick one Break at a time on the mob, and 99% of mobs can only overwrite one Break (if at all.) If the mob overwrites, just choose a different Break and adjust elsewhere. Fighting Beetles? Then use Armor Break rather than Shield Break, and use Sushi (assuming you're not really low in level.) Fighting Crawlers? Use Shield Break rather than Armor Break, and eat meat.

Weapon Break is totally useless, by the way. PLDs already have all the defense they could ever need, and are already at the point of diminishing returns. At best, lowering the mob's Attack by 25% would allow the PLD to either eat Sushi or tank with Berserk up, but even that is wasted because the PLD would get more mileage out of Shield or Armor Break, and on top of that, every other DD would benefit as well. Full Break is just <3.

[Celeal]

*Warning: Off topic*

With the new SAM update, I will try WAR/SAM using G.Axe tonight when I get home (if I can find or form an exp. party...)

As for Great Axe vs Axe, I have actively use both G.Axe and Axe for my WAR in exp. parties, and have both weapons capped at my level (level 62).

From my experience for using Great Axe and Axe... let me put it this way:

If your WAR/NIN gear setup works very well for DW Axe, do not expect the same set of gear and subjob will perform equally on Great Axe. Great Axe and Axe are different. This is base on my own experience.

As the above poster stated, two-handed need "a lot more" attack+ (to reach the high end of dmg curve) compare to single-handed weapon because of how the damage formula works. However, that only apply to pre-ToAU exp. area. From my experience, the "gap" between Axe and Great Axe when exp. on ToAU mob is not an issue.

I have tried DD as WAR/NIN, WAR/MNK, WAR/THF after I got Raging Rush. To my surprise, WAR/MNK worked the best for me:

Alternate between Aggressor and Focus, focus gear more on Attack+ and STR+, use sushi. Beserk, Warcry, and Boost can cover attack+ when needed. It works very well on Great Axe. It is just different from WAR/NIN, that is all...

With the different between A- Axe skill and A+ Great Axe skill post level 60, plus those weak mobs in ToAU and SAM's update, I have strong faith on Great Axe.


Sorry for the off topic, but I really think players should know the changes after ToAU release.

[Liquidedust]

Liquidedust, that was a good post, and you mean well, but there's some misinformation I'd like to correct.

The first thing is that there is no discrepancy between the calculations for a Great Axe and an Axe. In fact, there's no difference between the calculations for one-handed weapons and two-handed weapons. The formulas aren't skewed in favor of one or the other. If you have a Great Axe with 80 DMG and an Axe with 40 DMG, the Great Axe will do twice the damage as the Axe. Attack affects them both equally as well (i.e. you don't need Attack to make the most out of Great Axe as most people erroneously believe) so no matter what your PDIF is, the proportions between their damage would remain the same; Great Axe would still be doing twice the damage.

The problem lies elsewhere. Throughout the game, Great Axes in general have better DMG/second ratios than Axes. However, as the game progresses, Axe's DMG/sec ratios keep improving and getting closer to Great Axe's (the beginning of this trend is well marked by Combat Caster's Axes at Lv.40, and their HQ versions.) For the most part, an Axe has about half the DMG of a Great Axe, but is somewhat more than twice as slow (hence their lower DMG/sec.) However, when you start Dual Wielding, you're seriously skewing the DMG/sec ratio. Suddenly, Axes are just as fast as Great Axes with just Dual Wield I, and with Dual Wield II, they pull ahead. What's more, endgame axes have some really sick added stats (+5 Acc, +18 Attack in only one of two weapon slots?) as opposed to Great Axes, which stay "plain."

The skewing of the DMG/sec ratios and the stacking of the bonuses found in one-handed axes is what skews the damage in their favor, not the damage formulas. Add on top of that the fact that Joyeuse and multi-hit weapons in general are broken, and that there is no worthwhile multi-hit Great Axe, and it's not hard to see why Great Axe lags behind. The damage formulas work perfectly. Want Great Axes to be better? All S-E has to do is up their stats. Up their DMG and/or cut down their Delay until it matches dual wielded DMG/sec ratios, and add some nifty +stats on them. That'd level the playing field. Of course, since a fair part of Axe's potential comes from the sub job, S-E opted for a more balanced approach and made a counterpart sub that makes two-handed weapons stronger and faster, while giving some defensive abilities in order to compete with Utsusemi's usefulness. Of course, I'm talking about the changes to SAM and /SAM.

Note that WAR/THF with a Great Axe could probably keep up, or WAR/DRG for that matter, but they'd still be lacking one crucial element: the ability to nullify damage.

Thanks for responding and clearing up a few things Armando :), I just need to clarify a little what I meant with Attack were in favour of one-handers (since I came out a little wrong as you kindly pointed out).

Also just did a brief spell and grammar check so might be some inconsistency in this. (if something is unclear I'll try and explain it).

What I meant with the pontential of a weapon benefits more for the Axes then Great Axes. While say (hypothetically speaking) a DMG: 46 1-handed weapon can deal a maximum damage of 177 per hit and a 2-handeer with DMG: 92 can deal a maximim damage of 354 per hit (not really actual numbers).

The norm is usually that you hit around 45-60% of the weapons potential on regular VT/IT exp mobs 1-74 with crits going at around 70-90% of the weapons potential (anything over 90% is rare to hit without SA and massive STR and Attack to boost you up on typical VT/IT exp mobs 1-74).

(This is assuming you keep Berserk, Attack Food and/or any other Atk buffs on you such as the Minuet BRD Song, if not applied these numbers will vary a lot more on regular VT/IT exp mobs 1-74)

This brings us the following numbers (rounded down):

Axe: 79-106 (27 possible outcomes) - Crit: 123-159 (36 possible outcomes)
Great Axe: 159-212 (53 possible outcomes) - Crit: 247-318 (71 possible outcomes)Due to the nature of a lower variation in damage of Axes (less possible outcomes) in Axes compared to Great Axes; The Axes will be more consistent in damage on your regular exp mob when compared to Great Axes.

While the law of Averages tell us it will eventually be evened out on both of them math also tells us that the higher the variation in any given situation close to maximum potential will most likely not be able to be achieved.

While it is the same ratio to reach average damage with either weapon the chances of hitting higher in each scale is more likely in Axes due to lesser amounts of possible outcomes in variation.

If lucky and hitting high on the scale the Great Axes wins hands-down in total damage, but Axes thanks to lesser amounts of possible outcomes will benefit more from the formula as written (as with anything will small variation compared to high variation).

This is in combination of Axes benefitting greatly from Dual Wield delay reduction and actually randomizing possible outcomes more often as well being able to trigger Double Attack more often skewer the formula for damage more towards one-handed weapon users (a missed attack matter less to someone that single or dual-wields and you have a greater chance of seeing DA proc in the same amount of time. Note: time not swings).

This since more hits means more chances for additional hits for a WAR (there really is no way around this). I have said that before and promtly claimed more possible chances for Double Attack proc. will make make Double Attack more efficient and will get a better net gain. (which Dual-wield gives when using Axes)

This is again displayed in the weaponsskills used by a Warrior 60+ (the below assumes 10% DA proc rate and only assuming one double attack per WS).

Rampage
Rampage is five hits,six hits with Dual-Wield.

The chances of double attacking at least once in Rampage is 40.95% (46.86% with dual-wield).

This numbers comes up by calculating the following.

1-(x^z) = y

Where
x is your chance of double attack processing
z is your number of swings in a weaponskill
y is the chance of dual-wield processing once
Each additional hit beyond the first weaponskill has a x1.0 multiplier, the first hit of Rampage is at x0.5 and a full Rampage would be at x4.5.

This gives us 40.95 to 46.86 percent chance to increase our Rampage damage with 22% or rather it makes Rampage 9.0 percent (10.3 percent if you dual-wield) more efficient.

Raging Rush
Raging Rush is 3-hits.

The chances of double attacking at least once in Raging Rush is 27.1 percent.

(using same formula is in the above example).

Each additional hit beyond the first weaponskill has a x1.0 multiplier, the first hit of Raging Rush varies but the following applies.

100% TP x1.0 a Full Raging Rush would be x3.0
200% TP x1.5 a Full Raging Rush would be x3.5
300% TP x2.5 a Full Raging Rush would be x4.5This gives us a 27.1 percent chance to increase out Raging Rush damage as follows (as well as the increased overall efficiency in paranthesis).

100% TP DA has a chance to increase our damage with 33% (8.94% overall)
200% TP DA has a chance to increase our damage with 28.57% (7.74% overall)
300% TP DA has a chance to increase our damage with 22% (5.96% overall)On IT mobs Raging Rush versus Rampage will perform better thanks to its higher damage and accuracy issues on Rampage, but on mobs that con lower the extra number of hits of Rampage will outdamage Raging Rush thanks to (or rather due to) the lesser variations in ranges a one-handed weapon can hit at (as well as the higher number of hits).

There are however two general exceptions to this:

SA Raging Rush Will increase the first hit in Raging Rush with an additional x1.0 multiplier and make it output similar damage as Rampage at 100%. (note: with a Martial Bhuj at higher levels SA Raging Rushes and 6 hits Rampages will behave exactly the same at 100% TP damage-wise)
300% Raging Rush Will basically at all times match Rampages damage, and a SA 300% Raging Rush will usually blow Rampage Damage away (possible thanks to the potential of x5.5 with both weaponskills and due to the nature of Raging Rush taking more advantage of STR).Summary
Damage from Axes compared to Great Axes will be overall higher thanks to the higher number of swings you perfom compared to a Great Axes. Also one of the most job-defining traits of Warrior, Double Attack, will see a greater use on Dual-wielding Axes.

While both weapons benefit equally (or moreso for Great Axe thanks to higher TP returns and damage) you will see them a lot ore often on a WAR/NIN that dual-wields Axes.

In general if you fight IT mobs GAxe compared to Axe Weaponskills doesn't matter, they will output about the same numbers. When you target VT and below your one-handed Axe Rampages will most likely output greater numbers just due to the sheer nature of additional hits and the Great Axes weaponskill need to have additional TP beyond 100% to be as efficient.

Conclusion
Basically total damage from Axes will outperform Great Axes in an experience points enviroment. And damage taken will be greatly reduced with /NIN which Axes have the greater benefit from (thanks to reduced delay).

There are very few Great Axes that boost a Warrior performance in Attack/Accuracy/STR department compared to Axe choices. This just widens the gap between a Axe and Great Axe user even more (almost to a degree where it feels alienating to use a Great Axe).

SAM looks like the new option for Great Axes to finally be able to match up to Axes again, sadly unless the defense of SAM wont come close to NIN (doesn't have to match just come close to) I see it as another nail in the coffin for Great Axes (If we do even more damage we need something that can protect us from taking damage since we will grab hate unintentionally more often).

The other point that I wanted to address were Breaks. It isn't so much as misinformation, but rather I'd like to offer a different perspective on it. Basically, I don't believe the overwriting of Breaks to be a problem. We can only efficiently stick one Break at a time on the mob, and 99% of mobs can only overwrite one Break (if at all.) If the mob overwrites, just choose a different Break and adjust elsewhere. Fighting Beetles? Then use Armor Break rather than Shield Break, and use Sushi (assuming you're not really low in level.) Fighting Crawlers? Use Shield Break rather than Armor Break, and eat meat.

Weapon Break is totally useless, by the way. PLDs already have all the defense they could ever need, and are already at the point of diminishing returns. At best, lowering the mob's Attack by 25% would allow the PLD to either eat Sushi or tank with Berserk up, but even that is wasted because the PLD would get more mileage out of Shield or Armor Break, and on top of that, every other DD would benefit as well. Full Break is just <3.

And yes I agree with your viewpoint here, I just have a way to always look at the glass half-empty instead of half-full I suppose ;).

And while Full Break is very very nice, you'll seldom use it in regular exp sadly (at least I find myself to use it very rarely). I love the WS when I duo or trio with friends but I seldom get a decent application in an experience points party (mainly since at my level you still rely heavily on skillchain and they will most likely want me to close Fragmentation with Raging Rush if I use Great Axes).

The application of Full break is wonderful, but I myself seldom see me use it in experience points parties (that and the SC properties Full Break has are less then stellar as I pointed out in my previous post).

[dirtyclown]

I'm sorry to tell you the truth that NIN is better than PLD in merit XP party. I have PLD and NIN, both 75. I got PLD to 75 first and after that I got NIN to 75. It was like 20-25% more exp per party when I tank as a NIN because the down time was a lot lesser than PLD.

I gained most of my PLD merits from a NIN.

Comparing two jobs in an overall sense based on one small aspect is completely retarded. GTFO.

[Karinya]

Weapon Break is totally useless, by the way. PLDs already have all the defense they could ever need, and are already at the point of diminishing returns. At best, lowering the mob's Attack by 25% would allow the PLD to either eat Sushi or tank with Berserk up, but even that is wasted because the PLD would get more mileage out of Shield or Armor Break, and on top of that, every other DD would benefit as well. Full Break is just <3.

I agree that weapon break is largely useless *in an exp party*. However, I think it might have some usefulness when soloing/duoing in DD-oriented gear. There's no law against using a great axe even as /NIN, and it's also possible that 70+ WAR/SAM with Seigan+Third Eye might not need /NIN and shihei to keep damage taken low. The new countering third eye could be incredibly strong with a GA.

That's all even aside from the possibility that break vs. buff overwriting might be *mutual* overwriting like cocoon vs. sonic wave - has anyone tested? Weapon Breaking a Sharp Strike could be quite useful if your party doesn't have a dispeller (with COR, that doesn't necessarily mean a horrible party setup that you should never be in in the first place). Being at diminishing returns def vs. a crab or imp doesn't mean you're at diminishing returns vs. a scorpion with Sharp Strike on. Of course, that assumes that some party actually dares to fight a high attack mob type, which is rare outside of statics, but it could happen.

[Omni]

Comparing two jobs in an overall sense based on one small aspect is completely retarded. GTFO.

Funny, that's pretty much how this thread started. :p

Yes, but when the ninja can't hold hate, party members are being hurt, whm is spending more mp to heal everyone, and then the whm starts getting wailed on by the mob, so either I or someone else in the party with provoke has to grab the mob's attention and draw it off the whm while the ninja takes time to recast shadows, and then we have to wait for the ninja to get back hate.

you just quoted what i said, and ignored it in your response. nice one. when hate is fine, which in most cases it is, nin will win in efficency. hands down.

i dont see where all these horrible ninjas are coming from. it seems that when anyone has a point about nin holding hate, they make it out to be that every nin never holds hate, or that nin holding hate is some extremely difficult task.

and please do not use a nin at lv. 24 as an example of nin holding hate.

[Vair]

Funny, that's pretty much how this thread started. :p



you just quoted what i said, and ignored it in your response. nice one. when hate is fine, which in most cases it is, nin will win in efficency. hands down.

i dont see where all these horrible ninjas are coming from. it seems that when anyone has a point about nin holding hate, they make it out to be that every nin never holds hate, or that nin holding hate is some extremely difficult task.

and please do not use a nin at lv. 24 as an example of nin holding hate.

/sigh I guess I did tmake it into a thread I didn't want it to be. I wasn't trying to compare the two jobs. I think I'll edit the OP to make my point clearer.

Alright, edited. Please keep the thread from going where I did not want it to go. XD

Also, I understand the futility of having a PLD v. NIN debate and will never participate in one. I honestly don't care which tank is supposedly "better" and I really don't care if people hate me becuase of my job. I love PLD and I'm just trying to play a game. . . so why fight about somthing so pointless?

[Ziero]

Well at least this isn't a Pld vs Nin debate anymore...

math makes my head hurt ._.

[Omni]

I honestly don't care which tank is supposedly "better" and I really don't care if people hate me becuase of my job. I love PLD and I'm just trying to play a game. . . so why fight about somthing so pointless?

i dont think people hate you because of your job. some people are just idiots like those in your OP but that's just idiots being idiots.

pld work fine usually, great at times, slower at times.
nin work fine usually, great at times, more fragile at times.

i actually formed a pt with a pld last night. got around chain 10 usually and 25000 xp in 2.5 hours. i specifically looked for pld because i knew we were going to mire since it was empty. in mire, even if you have amensia, pld still have hate gaining moves with flash and cure since silence is much more easily taken care of than amensia. with a nin as main tank in mire, amensia will cripple instant hate generating moves and make it tough for a nin to main tank.

[eva00r]

Comparing two jobs in an overall sense based on one small aspect is completely retarded. GTFO.

Then why does square enix pre-announce in TGS 2006 that they will adjust PLD tanking style to be more efficient in long run ? The one that doesn't accept the real situation and complain about the others are retarded. GTFO.

PLD and NIN are completely different. They can be more useful than the other in diffrent situations. Simurgh is a joke with PLD tank however it's pretty stupid to kite an NM during night time with PLD.

[Davitron3000]

however it's pretty stupid to kite an NM during night time with PLD.

...I couldn't resist to bite on that.

I can kite a NM during night time, day time, early afternoon right after lunch, during tea time, whenever. I can generate hate really fast and hold it pretty well throughout the kiting. How is it stupid to kite with a Paladin during the night? (and yes I realize you are referring to the + movement speed that ninjas have at night, but that doesn't mean it is stupid for a Paladin to do it if needed, nor does it mean they will do it worse)

[Icemage]

PLD kite way better than NIN with Crimson/Blood Greaves.

Sure, NIN run a bit faster... but only at night. Unless you plan on finishing the fight in the ~16 minutes, a PLD with faster run is going to be much more effective overall.


Icemage

[Armando]

Man, I love a good debate.

Liquidedust, that was an awesome post, but I think something doesn't hold up in your explanation of the effects of the damage variance for Axes and Great Axes. You're assuming Great Axe has about twice the possible outcomes, but the way the damage formula works, the ammount of possible outcomes would depend on PDIF's range. Like, at capped attack, PDIF varies from 1.6 to 2.4...if we assume PDIF rolls vary up to the hundredths, then there's 80 possible PDIF rolls (1.60, 1.61...2.39, 2.40). Both weapons would have the same number of possible PDIF rolls, though in the case of Axe, any given damage number is about twice as likely to come up, since due to rounding, two really close PDIF rolls can give the same number. Sadly, I haven't been formally educated in statistics or probabilities, but I guess what I'm getting at is: If they both have the same number of possible PDIF rolls, then wouldn't Axe be just as likely as Great Axe to not hit for max damage?

Also, this is kind of unrelated to what we're discussing, but still pertinent to the topic of Axes vs Great Axes...I was reading Allakhazam's SAM forum for info on Hasso and Seigan, and was thrilled at the reports. It seems Hasso coming from /SAM37 gives +5 STR +10 Accuracy and +10% attack speed. I call it attack speed since Haste also affects spells, whereas Hasso/Seigan seem to increase spell recasts by 50%, but basically it's like Haste in that it doesn't lower your TP per hit. It looks like the Acc and Speed bonuses may be static, though it's for sure that the STR bonus varies with your level, with 75 SAMs reporting +10 STR (it seems the formula is Level/7, or close to that.)

As for Seigan + Third Eye, many SAMs were posting avoiding 3-4 hits in a row with a single Third Eye. From the way they made it sound, it looks like anything less than 3 isn't very likely. Also, they confirmed that you now have a form of Counter while under the effect of Third Eye (some people reported countering twice with the same Third Eye effect!) In addition to that, it seems that if you add some +Store TP to what you get from Store TP II, you'd be able to drop the number of hits needed for Great Axe to reach 100 TP from 7 to 6. Looks like /SAM may really give /NIN a run for its money now, and I shudder to think at the possibilities of DRK/SAM.

As for Full Break, yeah, I did make a sweeping generalization. I usually speak in terms of typical EXP parties since scenarios outside of that are situational and vary from person to person. But, to answer your question, Karinya, yes, most buffs are mutually overwritable. Shield Break can and does overwrite Rhino Guard. The main problem is that mobs out TP us grossly, and on top of that use their TP spontaneously. When a beetle Rhino Guards at the start of the fight, you Shield Break, and then it does another Rhino Guard just 15 seconds later it's not cool >.>;

But, Full Break is special. Stat Up buffs are divided into tiers or levels, with higher tiers overwriting lower tiers, and abilities in the same tier overwriting each other mutually. The great majority of all mob stat up buffs are only Level/Tier 1, and so are the first 4 Breaks. However, Full Break is actually Level/Tier 2, which means that not only will it overwrite buffs, it'll actually nullify further attempts of the mob. Only a few very specific moves could actually overwrite Full Break back, and only a very, very small number of moves can actually overpower Full Break. Also, I hadn't thought about Sharp Strike, that's a good one. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

EDIT: Found the Apple Pie's buff priority post I had read a long time ago.
Studio Gobli has the list in Japanese.
http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Part/6371/

Anyway, here's the list in English. Those that aren't listed here are still unknown.

+Evasion
(R1) Beatle: Rhino Guard
(R1) Big Bird: Feather Barrier
(R1) Pugil: Water Shield
(R2) Antica: Sand Veil
(R3) Tonberry: Sigh

+Defence
(R1) Crawler: Cocoon
(R1) Crab: Scissor Guard
(R3) Antica: Sand Shield
(R1) Orc: Arm Block
(R1) Yagudo: Parry
(R1) Qudav: Shell Guard

+Attack
(R1) MNK: Boost
(R2) WAR: Warcry

-Evasion
(R1) Lizard: Infrasonics
(R1) Bat: Ultrasonics
(R1) G.Axe: Shield Break
(R2) G.Axe: Full Break
(R4) Fenrir: Lunar Cry

-Defence
(R1) Crossbow: Acid Bolt
(R1) G.Axe: Armor Break
(R1) Staff: Shell Crusher
(R2) G.Axe: Full Break

-Attack
(R1) G.Axe: Weapon Break
(R2) G.Axe: Full Break

-Accuracy
(R2) G.Axe: Full Break
(R4) Fenrir: Lunar CryNote that it's really freaking old, so it doesn't take into account CoP and ToAU mobs and their buffs.

[Radel-King_of_Pirates]

/sigh I guess I did tmake it into a thread I didn't want it to be. I wasn't trying to compare the two jobs. I think I'll edit the OP to make my point clearer.

Alright, edited. Please keep the thread from going where I did not want it to go. XD

Also, I understand the futility of having a PLD v. NIN debate and will never participate in one. I honestly don't care which tank is supposedly "better" and I really don't care if people hate me becuase of my job. I love PLD and I'm just trying to play a game. . . so why fight about somthing so pointless?

Because it is natural that humans fight saying which one is better, having everyone know that their opinion is superior to others

[Aeni]

PLD kite way better than NIN with Crimson/Blood Greaves.

Sure, NIN run a bit faster... but only at night. Unless you plan on finishing the fight in the ~16 minutes, a PLD with faster run is going to be much more effective overall.


Icemage

It depends on what NMs we're talking about. On retardly fast "Ose jacked with Flee Tool" NMs, it doesn't matter as there's no such thing as a "speed advantage."

Then there's NMs with stunning abilities. In this case, regardless, a NIN is known to be superior for kiting due to the fact that they can avoid/mitigate/nullify such attacks (usually, again depending on what kind of NM and ability used here)

On fast hitting and rapid mobility NMs, PLDs do really well since what you're looking for is not just someone who can "run" but more of someone who can outlive these attacks when the shadows are out and who can still maintain hate. NINs fail at these kinds of NMs/situations.

[Desu~]

Then why does square enix pre-announce in TGS 2006 that they will adjust PLD tanking style to be more efficient in long run ? The one that doesn't accept the real situation and complain about the others are retarded. GTFO.

You weren't referring to "the long run", you were referring to one aspect of the game. NO U.

As for the rest of the thread, the only thing you can do about an angry player who wants to have "the best" is tell him to go find a party where he can be lazy. You have to work for things, ingame and out. There's no reason to let that kind of attitude slide.