Possible way to solve the TP burn problem? [Archive] - Final Fantasy XI :: Dreams in Vana'diel

Neomage

10-09-2006, 05:44 PM

As everyone knows, TP burns completely exclude BLMs. Why? Because the stragity is to kill alot of weak monsters really fast. So what would happen if we tewaked BLM to make them more viable not only to TP burns, but possibly soloing weak monsters also?

I know what your thinking. It's impossible. There is no way a BLM can keep up with a TP burn speed. It just can't happen, aside from the 60 seconds of manafont.

Solution: A new job ability.
Yggdrassil Seal
Level: 60.
Recast: 30 min.
Duration: 30 min.
Cancelable: Yes.
Effect: For the duration, a super-refresh effect is placed upon the user.

Yes, I know. Overpowered. BLM can then solo anything, Manaburns would get EXP faster then TP burns, etc. But... what if... when you use the ability, all monsters would very, very, very quickly build up magic resistance, NMs even faster, so that after the second or third spell, it is no longer viable. In a TP burn, the monster would long be dead, so the resistance doesn't really play. In Manaburns or soloing a monster that takes more then 2 spells though, the ability is counter-productive.

The only problem I find is the continued exclusion of jobs such as Paladin, White Mage and Summoner... This wouldn't work for those clases because they don't attack the monseter:worry:

Jei

10-09-2006, 06:05 PM

DakAttack

10-09-2006, 06:57 PM

Maybe they should give Paladins a passive trait that gives the whole party some sort of Auto-Regen and Auto-Refresh after chaining ITs to #5.

No, let's just make them harder, not fool with their spawns, and increase maximum EXP gained from IT.

Aeolus

10-09-2006, 08:39 PM

Exp bonus from ToAU, when the candensce is gone you dont get it and yet exp seems to be the exact same 10-15k an hour.

Omgwtfbbqkitten

10-09-2006, 08:56 PM

take away the unreasonably fast pop rate of enemies.

remove exp bonus from ToA.

reduce exp gain in PT from lower level monsters. Imagine 100 chaining puks for 30 exp each. no one wants that.

increase exp gain in PT for killing IT. like 300 a kill, without bonus. up to 500 for chain 5.

give us more IT+ mob camp spots.

what I think is that there need to be more reason to go up against IT+ mobs in exp party. And against IT+, melee damage is not going to be *that* reliable and the PT will need to perform skillchain+MB more in order to kill faster. And to promote this mind set, the TP burn getting super fast exp will need to go away. seriously.

I don't think its even the pop rate or even the EXP bonus now, its just some of the mobs in Mire and Mamook in particular are pathetically weak. Colibris aren't hard, but damn do they ever put up a fight compared to an Imp. You could beat these things with a plastic spoon.

I did a PT in Halvung on the ramparts against various Troll mobs tonight. If anything, the fast repop made the camp challenging because the mobs were a threat - especially the WAR, MNK and PLD mobs. Some were VT and put up a good fight too. We had to SC and MB them.

Just call TP burns what they really are - "wImp PTs."

Rambus

10-09-2006, 09:10 PM

Caspian

10-09-2006, 09:23 PM

i know the soluton, remember that NPC "nurf"? my NPC does more damage in xarcabard compared to north gusta beacuse people brag about how well they do in Promyvion.
The probem i saw with that update is all melees get that effect not just the NPCs all the NPCs did was show what it was like for a Good gear melee to kill weaker mobs
So make those melee eat the nurf my poor ripokeke took i made her a FA for a reason beacuse i cant benfit from the broken curve personally on the melee forumluas
Did I understand you right? You want to make melee's do less damage on mobs? Or just barely T-VT mobs? Like making a static -atk% for the first few levels a mob has over you? Yes, that makes BLM's more useful in regular parties, but at that point, why would they even want to party with melees? They could just go back to manaburns again since melees would be so weak at this point.

Celeal

10-10-2006, 06:06 AM

If MP usage and resting for MP is the issue for BLM in TP-burn parties, maybe S-E could:

1. Make Aspir (spell) to 30 second recast timer.
2. Make ToAU's mob more vulnerable to Aspir.
3. Increase the strength and accuracy of Aspir, so it can drain more MP.

I would also suggest a new spell for BLM that can convert damage into MP. For example, if the spell does 200 damage on the mob, the BLM would gain 200 MP.

That should make BLM more mobile in TP-burn parties.

Kirsteena

10-10-2006, 06:21 AM

More mobs on the level of Uluguerand Range would make me a happy bunny...

Neomage

10-10-2006, 06:37 AM

Did I understand you right? You want to make melee's do less damage on mobs? Or just barely T-VT mobs? Like making a static -atk% for the first few levels a mob has over you? Yes, that makes BLM's more useful in regular parties, but at that point, why would they even want to party with melees? They could just go back to manaburns again since melees would be so weak at this point.
I think you fail to understand WHY BLMS manaburn. It's a last resort. Manaburn EXP SUCKS compared to ANY meleeburn, and is even less then a standard EXP party. The only thing Manaburn WAS good for was NMs and BCNMs, and SE took that away. With ToAU monsters being pro-melee and anti-mage, with the fast EXP, I've tried to start a party only to have the DRG and SAM say "sorry, I got an invite to a meleeburn". the party disbanded, and 4 hours later they where raving about 9k/hour.
I don't care if they nerf melees or make BLMS stronger, but something has to be done.

EDIT: I was actually thinking about doing that to. Perhaps if SE gave us Aspir II and a Drain/Aspir Hybrid, though the spells themselves aren't super powered, we could at leats do SOMETHING.gular jobs, not fast tracks like NIN and WAR... thats why I invited them in the first place.

Skoal

10-10-2006, 06:51 AM

I don't care if they nerf melees or make BLMS stronger, but something has to be done when a DRG and SAM without NIN leveled can get that much EXP in a burn party. It's broken. They're supposed to be regular jobs, not fast tracks like NIN and WAR... thats why I invited them in the first place.

I appreciate you trying to exclude drgs from yet another aspect of the game.

I like SC+MB parties. I enjoy leveling my job sometimes and just tp burning is kinda mindless. The traditional parties in ToA I have been in have been some of the most fun and rewarding I have had.

Icemage

10-10-2006, 06:51 AM

I think you fail to understand WHY BLMS manaburn. It's a last resort. Manaburn EXP SUCKS compared to ANY meleeburn, and is even less then a standard EXP party. The only thing Manaburn WAS good for was NMs and BCNMs, and SE took that away. With ToAU monsters being pro-melee and anti-mage, with the fast EXP, I've tried to start a party only to have the DRG and SAM say "sorry, I got an invite to a meleeburn". the party disbanded, and 4 hours later they where raving about 9k/hour.
Huh?

I've never been in a manaburn party that clocked less than 7K per hour - not even at level 55, and I've been in a few that tipped the scales over 12K per hour. That's not "sucky" XP.

If you've gotten less than 7K/hr in a manaburn you're seriously doing something wrong (i.e. your Bard sucks). I've even gotten these sorts of numbers when leading manaburn parties as RDM/BRD (which is far more difficult, let me tell you).

I don't care if they nerf melees or make BLMS stronger, but something has to be done when a DRG and SAM without NIN leveled can get that much EXP. It's broken.
I've been talking about the woes of BLMs for a while now, but giving BLMs super-autorefresh isn't the answer. Might as well just give them Auto-Refresh trait and be done with it if you're going to do that.

---

A more amusing idea I think would be to give BLMs an ability like:

Soul Consumption
Recast: 3 minutes
The next spell you cast will damage your HP for its MP cost instead of drawing from your MP.

So if you're casting big whopper spell like Ancient Magic, you can get a lot of mileage from it - but you'd best make sure the monster dies or you're probably eating dirt afterwards.

Icemage

Jei

10-10-2006, 07:10 AM

That HP cost for magic sounds pretty neat. I think adjustment to 1 job alone will not solve anything tho. This is more about the available leveling ground than anything else. We have the puks, mamools, imps... that are too good to pass up the TP burn choice.

Kaickul

10-10-2006, 07:31 AM

I think you fail to understand WHY BLMS manaburn. It's a last resort. Manaburn EXP SUCKS compared to ANY meleeburn, and is even less then a standard EXP party. The only thing Manaburn WAS good for was NMs and BCNMs, and SE took that away. With ToAU monsters being pro-melee and anti-mage, with the fast EXP, I've tried to start a party only to have the DRG and SAM say "sorry, I got an invite to a meleeburn". the party disbanded, and 4 hours later they where raving about 9k/hour.
I don't care if they nerf melees or make BLMS stronger, but something has to be done.

The manaburn existed before the TP burn, and a good manaburn PT is just as good as a TP burn. Regardless of you feeling left out of the massive EXP gain of ToAU... I am sorry, but I dont feel bad. BLMs do way more consistant damage than any melee on any event... and if they nerf melee damage or TP gain anymore... I am done with this game. Need I remind people of this:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a45/kaickul/FFXI-endgame.gif

Spellcastors dont dominate this much because they suck.

While I am not saying BLM do not have a valid complaint, BLMs had it easy for the longest time until they implemented the resistance over time nerf. Several of the people I knew were leveling up BLMs so they could manaburn meripo for their main jobs, because no one wanted melee for anything. (And Im a THF... was even worse before the dagger update) Thats how out of control manaburn was getting before ToAU.

Rambus

10-10-2006, 08:02 AM

While I am not saying BLM do not have a valid complaint, BLMs had it easy for the longest time until they implemented the resistance over time nerf. Several of the people I knew were leveling up BLMs so they could manaburn meripo for their main jobs, because no one wanted melee for anything. (And Im a THF... was even worse before the dagger update) Thats how out of control manaburn was getting before ToAU.
we had it easy beacuse a lot of melee did not kow how to gear up back then
back way back it was mnk/drg/and sam before you had that tp fix

Karinya

10-10-2006, 08:48 AM

I support the idea of Drain2 and Aspir2, and a Spirit Taker like spell for BLM. Possibly DRK too, they seem a little left out. Unlike other 2h weapon users, they can't take full advantage of the /SAM changes because of the impact on recasts; and they have a perennial problem with 0-mp mobs. (Although Parade Gorget might help with that.)

But I also agree with Jei that the monsters are the real problem, as I have posted elsewhere.

Manaburns were originally formed before TAU because they got more exp than a traditional party. The only thing that could match them was a monkburn in KRT and there was only room for maybe 2 of those. (And that's if you could find enough monks in the first place.) Other meleeburns (e.g. Ru'Avitau weapons) did about as well as a balanced party.

It's only after TAU allowed 5 DDs and a BRD to make double the exp of any balanced party setup *or* manaburn that BLMs have started to feel left out. Well, don't come to a paladin for sympathy. Or a white mage, either, for that matter.

Overall I think the exp vs. monster level curves could stand some re-examination at the high levels. But most importantly, imps, colibris and puks need to be either toughened to be on par with other monsters of their level, or have their levels lowered to match their stats. Easy monsters shouldn't give the same XP as hard monsters.

Hell-bottom

10-14-2006, 05:03 PM

(Excuse me..) Mana burn is already faster than TP-Burn . BLM rules

Icemage

10-14-2006, 05:06 PM

(Excuse me..) Mana burn is already faster than TP-Burn . BLM rules
Manaburn is not as efficient as TP-burn. Close to, but definitely not faster.

Icemage

Hell-bottom

10-14-2006, 05:37 PM

Icemage

10-14-2006, 05:59 PM

when i was at level 70 i got in a 69~72 PT in King's ronberrys tomb 5 BLMs and a RDM (yes not BRD) pulling takes 15~20 second , when the skeleton appears we start nuking with Firaga3 , the minute he gets in the melee range he becomes a toasted Bone .. that takes 10~15 seconds . and we rest while the RDM pulls .
and don't forget the incredible Exp we get ~200 per fight or so .
Yes, and with a 15 minute respawn. Yadda yadda. You're not pulling in better than 12K per hour in a manaburn in KRT no matter what you do with a manaburn party. Been there, done that, have the levels to prove it.

In the mean time I was scoring 14-15K per hour at the same level range in Bhaflau Thickets with TP burn parties. Level 75 fully merited parties can do even better - close to 18K/hour.

Icemage

Hell-bottom

10-14-2006, 06:25 PM

if what you're saying is true then thank god i dinged 75 b4 TOAU , some one i know gave up on his BLM @67 ..oh well ... ~sound fainting~ long live the blms...

Clades

10-15-2006, 09:20 AM

A Super-Refresh wouldn't be the answer, that ability would make BLMs waaaaaaaay too powerful.

For Merit TP Burn Parties, maybe SE could change Utsusemi:Ni from 37 to 38. Maybe that wouldn't help though...

Hell-bottom

10-15-2006, 10:35 AM

imagine if they raised utsusemin:NI to 38 , then after 2 weaks the raise the level cap to 80 lol , thats SE for ya

Neomage

10-15-2006, 10:39 AM

Well, mabye I was wrong about manaburns, but from personal experiance, the one's I've been in got about 2k less then my standard EXP party. I duno, I'm still 67 so mabye manaburns actually become worthwhile up higher, but from personal experience I've gotten 5k/hour at best in a manaburn and I see melees the same level bragging about twice as much.

TenchiHawkwing

10-15-2006, 10:42 AM

Icemage

10-15-2006, 11:24 AM

lol, I'm going to laugh when either of the burns does get nerfed for xp, then of course the nerfed side is going to complain until SE nerfs the previously-not-nerfed side... then we'll all be getting slower exp.
I'm fully expecting a nerf for TP-burns in the near future in some form or other. The current state of affairs is eerily similar to the situation that was in effect prior to the TP-nerf back in early 2004, and also of the arrowburn madness that swept Vana'diel about a year ago right before the RNG nerf.

Icemage

Kaickul

10-16-2006, 06:53 AM

I'm fully expecting a nerf for TP-burns in the near future in some form or other. The current state of affairs is eerily similar to the situation that was in effect prior to the TP-nerf back in early 2004, and also of the arrowburn madness that swept Vana'diel about a year ago right before the RNG nerf.

Icemage

Yes! Nerf melee because SE implements an area of easy to kill mobs for merit Exp along with implementing loads of TP + gaining equipment in the past year.

:rolleyes:

Come on... why? Did my previous post just get completely ignored for the statements presented?

Yuanlung

10-16-2006, 09:30 AM

IMO, nerfs just aren't the answer. That just drives more people to quit.

BLM really isn't the victim of the burn party phenomena. Hack, we pioneered it.

The reason why burn parties work is that there is no incentive in having a tank or low DD anymore. Why go after IT++ when you can just better xp chaining VT's? Since tanks can't hold hate while DD's mual VT's, people just get 1 more DD instead of an ineffective tank.

What we really need to bring back conventional party is to give some incentive for people to do so. Create more IT++ camp sites for 75's that are no hassle to get to, give higher exp bonus to harder mobs (it's a flat rate bonus now, which favors quick chain of weaker mobs). Give some beneficial interactions to the DD-Tank-BLM group. Something like Vivi+Steiner's magi sword would be wonderful... (BLM nuking onto the tank's weapon, and let tank do the damage for hate.)

I just think that incentives are better motivations than punishment...

Caspian

10-16-2006, 01:05 PM

I just think that incentives are better motivations than punishment...
They are very much so, but they also require a lot more testing to see if it unbalances the game. Its easier to nerf something and if its too much, just go back and tweak it, rather than putting in an incentive that breaks the game for some people and listen to 80% of your playerbase whine.

TP burns will probably be nerfed at some point. Regardless of if the should or not. I think they should really leave it alone for the most part and perhaps raise the respawn time of the common TP burn mobs by a minute or two. Just enough to slow down xp to not quite as insane levels. Remember, if they nerf it too much and BLM's get the advantage gain in manaburns, then its just gonna come right back and bite BLM's in the ass later on.

I do think its funny. A few years ago, SE didn't like people (RNG's) chaining IT++'s. Instead they wanted us to make big chains of T-VT's. Now we all feel and impending nerf to hurt the xp/hr gain of chaining those very same T-VT's that they originally wanted us to fight. Round and round we go?

Raydeus

10-16-2006, 01:21 PM

I do think its funny. A few years ago, SE didn't like people (RNG's) chaining IT++'s. Instead they wanted us to make big chains of T-VT's. Now we all feel and impending nerf to hurt the xp/hr gain of chaining those very same T-VT's that they originally wanted us to fight. Round and round we go?

It's sad but I think something like that.

I mean the game will never be balanced because balance depends on perception and playstyle. So there's always gonna be at least one job that's gonna be left out, and there's always gonna be a group of players that will ask for an adjustment on things they can't do or that cause them to feel/be left out.

It doesn't seem like it's gonna end no matter what SE does, and the more expansion areas and mobs they add the worse it's gonna get, what's balanced in an area of Vana is completely unbalanced in another and viceversa.

And if they adjust things in a way that everyone has to do the exact same thing in the exact same spot then the game is gonna become too boring to be worth playing. /shrug

Yuanlung

10-17-2006, 07:20 AM

And if they adjust things in a way that everyone has to do the exact same thing in the exact same spot then the game is gonna become too boring to be worth playing. /shrug

That's the thing, I really don't think it was neccessary to nerf arrow burn like that. Nor is there a need to slap TP burn so hard so that people stop doing it. Just Make it so that people can achive about the same level of xp gain in a conventional party. Yes it requires testing and it will be a tricky adjustment, but hey, that's what they get paid for.

Then again, concidering their culture where they expect everyone to fall in-line and act the same fashion.. like a good worker bee... I call phat chance at that.

Feenicks

10-18-2006, 01:42 AM

Hell-bottom

10-18-2006, 07:06 AM

Wasn't the RNG nerf supposed to counter LS's just throwing countless RNG at NMs, BCs etc rather than to counter arrowburn parties? As far as I remember everyone was levelling RNG because the only answer people had to the difficulty of the CoP BCs was to bring at least 3 RNG and let them go crazy.

thats what happend to alot of ppl wanting to do DM BCNM and they dont have BLM leveled , i know a DRK who waited 3 years just to be allowed in the BCNM (i know alot of ppl who do it without mana burn but ppl always choose the easy way ) so maybe the TP-Burn can bring alittle balance to the jobs formula . as for the BLM they always have the Mana burn .

Caspian

10-18-2006, 07:35 AM

Wasn't the RNG nerf supposed to counter LS's just throwing countless RNG at NMs, BCs etc rather than to counter arrowburn parties? As far as I remember everyone was levelling RNG because the only answer people had to the difficulty of the CoP BCs was to bring at least 3 RNG and let them go crazy.
Yeah, that was a big part of it, but people were also complaining because you could put 4 rng's, a nin, and a brd/whm in Bibiki bay at lvl 61 or 62 and chain dahlmels for 8 or 9k/hr.
I seem to recall hearing at one point SE said they didn't want people fighting IT++'s and would rather we chain VT's.