Building the DD Ninja

[Aeni]

Warning: the comments below represent experience from the late 20s to early 30s in levels of a NIN. I could care less what happens at level 75 simply because it does not concern with my current situation. You've been warned.


Yah, you laugh. But what drove me and my friends to building a 3x NIN static was the fact that:

(a) You have about 15 NINs at your level LFP. Including your two other friends.
(b) People invite NIN to tank onry. 95% of the time.

With regards to (b), it's been commonly believed (regardless of whether it is true or not) that NINs in PT tend to take their sweet time killing something (lacking dps) while a PT filled with WAR/NINs would rip through mobs in record time.

So ... with that in mind, how does one go about building a non-tanking NIN? I've been experimenting with different possibilities and was fortunate enough to try a couple of things in my long time party today.

[1] Great Katana

Like a ghetto SAM. I think if I loaded up on +STR and +Atk/Acc, I should have a decent dps versus dual wielding low yield damage katanas. Skilling up was not an issue (I have played SAM, but even then, actually getting skillups with NIN is quite decent) and even with a full 30pt. difference in weapon skill, I didn't whiff a whole lot either (Although the sushi should be given credit for that in this case)

[2] Range Spamming

Using sub RNG to help out with range attack and accuracy (And give you appropriate WSs) I think this is also a front runner in melee DD options for a NIN (I've already done this for my SAM and it has been a blast, although in some parties, you might find yourself missing provoke from a subbed WAR)

[3] Jutsu Spamming

Also known as elemental wheeling. No comments on this as we were not able to get a full repetoire of jutsu tools to use these abilities. From what I have seen, however, skill level does play a large part in the damage you actually do. For now, none of us have capped ninjutsu, so I'll have to get back on this one (Ninjutsu skill starts off with a 10 level handicap)



Anyone has other options or builds that you think I should try? Mind you, for our purpose, really, there is no need for a "main tank" but I suppose if we do get into a "normal" 6-man PT, one of us can go back to subbing WAR and voking every 30sec...

[Omni]

1) g.katana might give you bigger numbers per hit however, the g.katana that nin can use are always a lot weaker than ones that sam use. the beauty of nin is that they get to take advantage of dual wield. katanas all the way.

2) shurikens are good dmg. if you can afford throwing a bunch, go for it.

3) ichi elementals are lame. not a good source of dmg. wait til lv. 40. spend ~40 sec casting 6 elementals that will probably do a whopping 30 dmg total.

As far as equip goes, theres not much variation between most melee equips at this lvl. beetle earrings? str rings, spike necklace.. yadda yadda. all the same stuff across the board usually. you can use swords too at these levels.

[Aeni]

1) g.katana might give you bigger numbers per hit however, the g.katana that nin can use are always a lot weaker than ones that sam use. the beauty of nin is that they get to take advantage of dual wield. katanas all the way.

I notice that with G.Katana, I was swinging about the same speed as dual wielding the katanas. However, you are right in that the damage from both adds up. Mind you, however, I was 30 skill pts behind in G.Katana and there were times when I would crit for 60+ dmg which as a NIN, you can only get from a crit'd Blade: Retsu (at these levels)

2) shurikens are good dmg. if you can afford throwing a bunch, go for it.

I plan to :P The damage is spectacular especially coupled with the fastest speed you can for any range attack.

3) ichi elementals are lame. not a good source of dmg. wait til lv. 40. spend ~40 sec casting 6 elementals that will probably do a whopping 30 dmg total.

Well, ichi elemental damage might not make it worthwhile casting. However, I noticed that only with Ichi you can continuously wheel. Ni has a 1.5 sec cast time, but a cool down of a whole minute. That means before you can wheel up, you'll have a 20sec or so downtime.

Versus Ichi, which is a long cast time (4sec) but a 30sec cooldown, making it possible to just "spam." Interruption is not a problem if one ninja does it while the other 2 ninjas try something else. I've seen Hyoton do about 20dmg or so by itself on Mandies so I thought maybe if you can wheel up a full two rotations, the second time around you should seek a slight increase in damage (20%?) But I'll report back on what I find when I do it. If anything, at least 2 ninjas can try to MB a jutsu. LOL

As far as equip goes, theres not much variation between most melee equips at this lvl. beetle earrings? str rings, spike necklace.. yadda yadda. all the same stuff across the board usually. you can use swords too at these levels.

I know one of us dual wielded swords on Saturday and that was okay for building a SC (Variety is best) But as far as TP gain, it certainly sucked harder than a pair of Katanas. I even out TP'd with G.Katana. :worry:

[Raitox]

I die a little everytime I see a NIN using a GK, no matter what the circumstance.. Be a SAM/NIN, something. :worry:

[Aeni]

I die a little everytime I see a NIN using a GK, no matter what the circumstance.. Be a SAM/NIN, something. :worry:

Class stereotyping. How about putting up some numbers before being so negative? All I wanted was some options. If you're going to be negative about something, the least you can do is provide something positive with it.

[Lmnop]

1) 2 handed weapon stun WSs last quite long. Tachi:Hobaku lets you recast utsusemi:Ichi often. DD should be swell for now. I'd expect it to drop off ~30ish. At that point, I'd dual wield katanas with /war and Berserk as often as possible.

If you're going to use a sword, I don't see much reason to also offhand a sword. Offhand katana for higher acc/attack to keep your damage something resembling consistent. I could see certain levels maybe breaking this pattern (like dual cent swords, maybe. Though I also think offhand cent sword for boosts and main hand katana could be nice).

2) shuriken are good. Use the R.acc rings and stuff. if you're /rng, may as well whip out gun and get shooting before the acc gets unbearable. The greatest advantage of shuriken spam over gun is that you can melee quite effectively between throws. Old School RNG style. wtg melee sweetspot.

3) :Ichi damage isn't so terrible. resist rates are pretty terrible, but the dmg ain't bad. I'd equip on +INT rings and black silk neckerchief or whatever -- wear your best BLM attire. Like shuriken-nin, you can be meleeing between swings.

----

for shuriken nin and jutsu nin, you're looking at a mostly standard equipped NIN, just with a different playstyle. Instead of afk-attack, mash control D, or keep track of the wheel and walk down your macros. The melee swings in-between are just a bonus. In either case, I'd still bring my normal melee equips and macro them in for WSs. No reason not to.

I'd prolly use sushi for any RNG-playing nin. Pie would be interesting on jutsu spammer... quite. I think if you need sushi for GK, well I hate to say it but you should prolly go back to katana. Rice Dumplings should get you by once you get it fully skilled up.

[Aeolus]

I die a little everytime I see a NIN using a GK, no matter what the circumstance.. Be a SAM/NIN, something. :worry:

Hate to be elitist but lol Nin15 Sam 36.

[Maju]

With my capped ninjutsu skill at L25 I've never seen any of my elemental jutsus land for more than 11 damage. It could be higher with BLM sub but I still think simply meleeing with WAR sub will give much better results. At least I would often swing for almost 20 damage on mandies with my Hibari +1s and meat jerky.

GK also sounds like a bad idea. Weaker katanas than what SAM gets to use and only a C skill rating. Can't say I've tried it, though.

Shuriken spamming probably is your best bet but in my opinion it's too expensive and inventory intensive to be a viable strategy. I'd just use the best possible DD gear as NIN/WAR and melee away. Your damage shouldn't significantly fall behind other melees.

PS. Retsu cannot crit without SA.

[Raitox]

Everytime I see a NIN with a GK I out damage them with mine by 15-20. :P You're better off with +1 katanas. Well to be positive I guess you get Tachi: Enpi, thats a great WS.
EDIT: You know even if I am a SAM36 I have partied with other Ninjas.. And guess what?! Thats in the 20-30 range. :O

[Omni]

re: ichi elementals. i think thats the lamest idea to just spam them. if you are trying to do damage, spending your time casting ichi spells is just pointless. they usually land for 6-11 dmg. you can do that with each hand. yea you might be able to continously spam them but really, other than for resistance down effects, which i dont think many blm at that lvl care about, there is not any benefit from ichi elementals.

[Zaeeth]

Gkatana - Not sure on that one, I just started leveling the weapon as I'm farming stuff and want to be ninja for it.

Shuirkens - Well those things just rock (I think this is the best damage tool you have in the levels you've listed)

Ichi Elementals - That's a hard one, ninjitsu skill is kinda like elemental skill for BLM as for my experience and what I've heard from others and read. Ninjitsu skill lessens resists not increases the damage. So the two stats you'd want to boost are INT and Magic Attack Bonus. Once I hit 47 I swapped out one of my dodge earrings for my Moldavite started hitting in the 90s unresisted with NIs. I know you won't do that much with the ichis but I sure you can pump out a bit of damage with them. With BLM sub I was getting +4 INT extra so one of you can sub that and spam the nukes. I'd keep two of you with /war to help each other with shadow recasts at those levels. As for wheeling the NI spells, you can keep those wheeled up, you just space them out more to keep up with the timers. The weakening effect doesn't wear off super fast so you can just space it to swing in between.

As for DDing later on, I've been invited to several parties as my NIN for DD in the 50s to 60. It was a lot of fun to try that out, I would MB and SC, Berserk when up and tank if the PLD needed a breather.

I wish you the best in your DD build. After all NIN was just another support melee with it started^^

[TenchiHawkwing]

Rather than saying the same stuff everyone else has said, let me actually give you some insight as to what you're asking about(since I'm leveling NIN again... for the third time, and I'm doing the same thing as you)

Currently LV32 I went with as much DD gear as I could at all possible levels. .

I'll start, in which case I wore... (Starting from 20)
Gassan/Suzume -> Hibari +1/Hibari +1 -> Busuto +1/Hibari +1 -> Busuto +1/Fukuro -> Kodachi +1/Kodachi +1
Rogetsurin -> Attar Sachet
Mercenary's Hachimaki -> Empress Hairpin
Wing Pendant -> Spike Necklace
Bone Earring +1/Optical Earring -> Beetle Earring +1/Optical Earring
Power Gi -> Nanban Karignu
Royal Footman's Gloves -> Federation Tekko
Courage Ring/Courage Ring -> Courage Ring/Shikaree Ring
Traveler's Mantle -> Nomad's Mantle +1
Warrior's Belt +1
(I can't remember) -> Garrison Hose
Bounding Boots

As for food, I'd been using Rice Dumplings almost exclusively until Lv30 when I got berserk, now I use Bream Sushi(because it's cheap, I'd rather not buy more expensive sushi since I'm not getting as much out of the food as I would if I were higher level).

With this setup in Qufim I was hitting Blade: Retsu for over 100DMG most of the time... though if even one hit of it missed it'd be noticably lower(70s, etc).

When I got to Kazham, initially my DMG wasn't too impressive, but it was comparable to most other DDs, though DRGs made me look VERY bad in Yuhtunga... (DRGs own the low levels, I don't care what anyone says)

Finally got the Busuto on and things were looking better, not too great till I was able to equip the Fukuro in the offhand... then at 30 with Berserk I was tearing it up again! Had I not been duo tanking (having to recast Utsusemi, Kurayami, etc...) I'm sure I'd have been doing even better... Retsu doing over 100 again...

Then I hit 32... I'm going to be using these Kodachi +1s all the way to 37, so far they are doing quite well... good DPS and good WS(Broke 200DMG with zerk up finally with these babies. Only twice though... =/)


I throw Shurikens every once in awhile(Usually a couple after a WS)... not too often though.

[Aeni]

Ichi Elementals - That's a hard one, ninjitsu skill is kinda like elemental skill for BLM as for my experience and what I've heard from others and read. Ninjitsu skill lessens resists not increases the damage. So the two stats you'd want to boost are INT and Magic Attack Bonus. Once I hit 47 I swapped out one of my dodge earrings for my Moldavite started hitting in the 90s unresisted with NIs. I know you won't do that much with the ichis but I sure you can pump out a bit of damage with them. With BLM sub I was getting +4 INT extra so one of you can sub that and spam the nukes. I'd keep two of you with /war to help each other with shadow recasts at those levels. As for wheeling the NI spells, you can keep those wheeled up, you just space them out more to keep up with the timers. The weakening effect doesn't wear off super fast so you can just space it to swing in between.

See, this is the thing. Most NINs I know who at around level 30 that tell me about their experiences with the elem jutsus don't have any mage job past level 10. So, as far as having elemental skill to sub (Via BLM) they don't have any hardcore proof of their failures making this work.

I also agree with you that ninjutsu skill controlls accuracy of the jutsu. With that being said, how many level 30 ninjas can honestly say that their ninjutsu skill was capped by then? Probably only 5% of the more dedicated ninja players.

So, my idea was to wheel jutsu and in between (cooldown between spell casting) probably throw a shuriken or two. Like a Ni user spreading out the wheel in a 50s rotation (10 sec interval, 50sec total from cast 1 to 6 ) I think that with 4sec in each of the interval, that leaves 6sec of something. Up close, this will come to about 1 swing of a dual wielded weapon or 1 gkt swing and 1 shuriken tossed. With capped ninjutsu, capped elem (from sub to that level) and a sub BLM, this might work handily enough. Since I'm level 30+ (15+ BLM), I can always ES on occassion an MB from the BLM's spell. Heck, guess that I have it, instead of throwing shuriken, I could mix it up and put out some nukes on that rotation drinking juices.

Thanks for a lot of responses, but I'm disappointed that no one suggested anything outside of what I suggested. :P Those were what I already tried out or thought of, but no one really gave out something new or "haven't tried, but sounded good" ideas.

[Armando]

Thanks for a lot of responses, but I'm disappointed that no one suggested anything outside of what I suggested. Those were what I already tried out or thought of, but no one really gave out something new or "haven't tried, but sounded good" ideas.Chakram spam? Weapons in the ranged slot tend to have skewed TP-to-Delay ratios since they don't strictly follow the 60 Delay = 1 sec conversion. On top of that, Ranged weapons get twice the benefit from STR and take half of the level difference penalty to ranged PDIF. Could be an alternative to shurikens.

I suppose the elemental wheel could work if you were to equip enough +INT. But considering you're losing 4 seconds per cast, I think you lose too much meleeing time to make it worth it, much less paying that much money in powders.

[Intensity]

Concerning Elemental Ichi wheel:

Okay, the main reason this doesn't work is a timing issue. in the time you take to cast the whole wheel, you could have swung or thrown so many times you're losing alot in damage. At their best, they're a very low amount of damage taking into consideration the 7+ sec cast time. Trust me when I say this changes DRASTICALLY in the Ni levels. Once you get the Ni wheel, it's a whole new ball game. I tanked after 40 and had issues keeping my katana's leveled because I'd essentially just constantly spam jutsu spells. It will straight blow your mind being a Ninja from 40-55. I think that's where most higher level ninja's develop ther god complex of thinking they can solo anything because from 40-55, you can.

[TenchiHawkwing]

One thing you CAN try... would be guns. That'd be similar to shuriken spamming though... NINs do well with guns at low level.(Apparently they do well in meripo as well, I remember seeing some parses about a NIN/RNG "Gun Ninja")

[Aeni]

Concerning Elemental Ichi wheel:

Okay, the main reason this doesn't work is a timing issue. in the time you take to cast the whole wheel, you could have swung or thrown so many times you're losing alot in damage. At their best, they're a very low amount of damage taking into consideration the 7+ sec cast time. Trust me when I say this changes DRASTICALLY in the Ni levels. Once you get the Ni wheel, it's a whole new ball game. I tanked after 40 and had issues keeping my katana's leveled because I'd essentially just constantly spam jutsu spells. It will straight blow your mind being a Ninja from 40-55. I think that's where most higher level ninja's develop ther god complex of thinking they can solo anything because from 40-55, you can.

Oh trust me, it's not wheeling straight, but using gaps in between for blowing a couple of shurikens and meleeing once. Let's be honest, dual wield isn't fast w/o haste and at level 32. There's a noticeable delay or otherwise I would not have suggested what I suggested I should try doing.

I will let you all know what happens.

As for guns, I did it at level 20. The problem is range. However, if I stand away from the mob anyway to use jutsu wheeling, then I guess it's not an issue. Up close, however, guns accuracy is lol. Even on main RNG it's not easy.

[Armando]

Oh trust me, it's not wheeling straight, but using gaps in between for blowing a couple of shurikens and meleeing once. Let's be honest, dual wield isn't fast w/o haste and at level 32. There's a noticeable delay or otherwise I would not have suggested what I suggested I should try doing.It's still a 15% reduction in Delay...either way, it's not the total Delay that matters, but the DMG/sec relationship. Also, I don't mean to be overnegative or anything, but even if you spread out your casting you still take a hit...every cast is 4 seconds of meleeing you lose. Every wheel you go through "costs" you 24 seconds of meleeing. Thus, for it to be effective you'd need to stack enough INT so that one elemental wheel would've done more damage than 24 seconds of meleeing. I'm looking forward to the results; as long as you're not grossly overhunting, resists shouldn't be an issue, since the mob will have -30 resistance to the next spell. So it's really a matter of getting the INT to pull it off, and what the spells cap at (I can't imagine they have a very high cap.)

[Celeal]

At that levels for NIN DD, IMHO, I would just get all the possible STR+ gear and ATK+ gear, eat Rice Drumpling, equip a pair of highest dmg katana, and DoT the mob to death. Nothing fancy, nothing exotic. Keep it simple and direct.

[Intensity]

I still say blow of the ele wheel til Ni, I was always disappointed by the very low damage + very high casting time. Something I did do on a regular basis is drop one to weaken the mob to ice before using retsu and some others to weaken for enfeebles, not sure if it really helped with the though.

And I tried guns too, they were crap for the same reasons. HUGE delay, and only semi-good damage, and that's when I could land a shot 1 in 5 times.

[Aaramis]

I'd have to agree with Celeal.
Pre-37, most NIN seem to pile on the +eva or +agi gear ... at which point their damage output suffers, especially compared to the DD classes who will be going all out +str/+atk/+acc.

Honestly, I think all you"d have to do is to swap out your +eva/+agi gear for +atk/str, eat meat jerky/mithkabobs or rice dumplings (if you want some +acc), and use berserk if you have it.

[tdh]

I was going to suggest subing BLM, and Dual Wielding Yew Wands +1 (http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/576) and then I saw that NIN can't actually equip any of the good INT wands for the INT bonus. My plan was to load up on a ton of INT, and then put that Mithran INT (Was I correct in remembering both of your characters are Mithran Aeni?) to good use by flinging the Elemental Wheel from the back row. Of course this might not help with the trio tanking, but I would expect you could do some decent damage in the long haul.

Now that the Wand idea has fallen through, my only other suggestion was to go with some Swords. A couple of NINs in my LS told me going with Sword would probably help me hold more hate due to more damage, and Fast Blade being much more damaging than Blade: Rin & Retsu up to about Lv.30~ish. But serveral people have already mentioned the Sword option, and just go with the usual low level Atk gear. Lv.16 earrings, STR rings, and so on. You've leveled DRK, so I'm sure you know what's available for that range.

[Aeni]

(Was I correct in remembering both of your characters are Mithran Aeni?)

Nuh-uh. Aliza is a hume. Aeni is mithra (But I don't play with her anymore) Akemie is mithra. I had a Tarutaru thermonuclear device, but due to the smallness, lost her someplace in the ethernet. ; ;

Plus, I forget to tell you that I have to be the one who's subbing WHM. LOL ... 3 man party (3 NIN) in case you're wondering about this setup. No, it's for fun and I know we're not going to get amazing exp. Just trying to fool around with combinations. So, knowing that I won't be subbing WAR for that uber melee bonus, this is why I was thinking of other alternatives to melee.

:p

(as long as you're civil, contributive and constructive, you'll get a thanks from me in this thread)

[Clever Ninja]

There's no problem with NIN using sword, as long as your sword skill is relatively high. They're good to mainhand for different Skillchains early on, and my 25 NIN is currently carrying one.

Anyway, on the issue with the Ichi Wheel; unless you sub BLM, get a load of INT(I think INT affects their damage), and actually go through the whole wheel, its not worth it. Unlike Ni levels where you could take breaks and do stuff in between the wheels due to their cast time, if your gonna be casting the elemental ichi wheel AT ALL, sub BLM get the designated equipment and basically dedicate yourself to being either a Melee/Shuriken NIN or a Ichi Elemental Wheel NIN.

I honestly don't even know how the damage would look like, as the only time I've seen a NIN/BLM is from the 40-55 range, and hardly any NIN before that equips themselves to fully utilize the elemental wheel, so I don't think ANYONE really knows the damage potential in that. If you actually go through with this and use a Parser I'd be interested in seeing how it performed.

And as mentioned, stick with dual wielding. As someone as said, the fact that NIN can't use the really good Great Katana is the main reason why its frowned upon to use. And its a blessing to dual wield, take advantage of it >_>.

[TenchiHawkwing]

Oh! Did I forget to mention that if you're going pure melee, /DRG might be something you want to look into?!

You'd get Attack Bonus and Jump together both at Lv20, and at 30 the Wyvern Earring and Mantle come into play.

[Lmnop]

I had a NIN main tank in altep levels who was nin/war, as usual... taru, macro'd on lots of INT gear. Spammed the spells non-stop. He didn't voke every 30 seconds which made hate shakey, but damage-wise, he wasn't too far behind me. I believe I was on Samurai. Unfortunately, I never save parses and I don't remember the details, so don't make too much out of this sample.

He had a 75 Rdm (his bro's char dual-boxed) standing around hasting him, and generally saving our asses from links/what-have-you. That -definately- gives an advantage, but more in the ways of being able to keep up Utsusemi than DD.

[Aeni]

NIN/WHM is amazing. Even without curing, I still kept up with DD. I pulled hate more than once off the other 2 NINs that only voked and voked and voked. omgz

Maybe I'm just too l337 <3

Anyway...

So, I decided to dual wield katanas on recommendations and didn't bother with shurikens. I didn't wheel because of inventory issues with having to make juices (Again, subbed WHM) and had a couple of slots for +MP.

I still produced 130-150 Blade: Tos though :p We were able, just 3 of us, to take down VTs and low ITs. Heh. Oh, and chain to 3s and 4s. And no serious downtime (gotta love the juice)

But it was an off day and I wasn't being serious about it. One of the other NINs wasn't feeling well and we didn't really stay around long. I will ask someone else to sub WHM so that I can experiment >.>

[Meepster]

well here's my input on this as a ninja who has done this. Nin/Blm = sex
i'm a 75 blm tho and have all the gear to benefit this job combo. I replace my Str rings with INT rings, and sub in a few other INT items where i can afford to, never sacrificing evasion of course. i have my elemental wheel macroed in order so the next spell is always stronger (earth > wind > ice > fire > water > thunder) and macro an HQ staff to each spell. And of course the Moldavite Earring :3

i'm sure you could do the same thing without blm sub, but you'd lose out on alot of magic attack bonus. I see anywhere from a 20-50 pt dmg increase per nuke with blm sub


also, if you plan to just be a nin dd with attack and str gear and such, keep in mind that most of your weapon skills are elemental and therefore more INT based than str/dex/acc/attk. I'm not saying that those stats dont help, because they do (its still 'some' physical dmg) but comming from someone who's tested it, INT helps.
i used to macro in INT +4 rings on my drk for freezebite and instead of the usual 50 crap dmg that ws does, i was doing more like 250-350 with it.

[Lmnop]

only problem with your example is that you're looking @ elemental: Ni's instead of Ichis. If you were using that combo pre-40, pre HQ staves, etc... please tell us what you remember of your :Ichi experiences.

[Aeni]

IN case anyone was wondering what my gear looks like now...

2x Kodachi
Wingedge
Silver Hairpin (Emp Hairpin is for chumps)
Savage Separates
Federation Tekko
Republic Subligar
Federation Kyahan
Holy Phial (omgz wewt)
2x Beetle Earrings +1
2x Courage Ring
Warrior's Belt +1
Nomad's Mantle

Think I might put in my +3STR rse feet, but other than that, NINs don't get very much to work with.

[Malacite]

The only real point of the Ichi wheel is for skill chains. Even if the spell does 0 dmg, it always does the -15 elemental resist, which can help if done just before a skill chain.

And even if you're /RNG I still wouldn't use gun. Yes, it has the highest base dmg of any weapon from 22-29, but shuriken will allow you to keep in meleeing on top of the shuriken spam for rediculous dmg and tp. I wish SE would change barrage so that it works with shuriken, then NIN/RNG would just completely pwn :3 (if you can afford it)