Upcoming RNG update and old crap

[Caspian]

Noticed there wasn't a thread yet for this. Funny thing is I remember like 8 different threads just before the last big RNG patch. Oh how times have changed.
Anyway, part of this is asking if anyone remembers them saying something in the last patch about how our ranged attacks would be affected by mob defense. I think it was Cometgreen that said he thought he remembered hearing this, but I couldn't remember for sure. I know the big change was the drop in damage due to lvl difference, but couldn't remember if that had anything to do with it or not. Also, I only remember them saying that Flashy shot nullified the penalty for level difference, making one shot every 20 or so minutes on HNM's feel like the old days.
This was brought up, b/c since the patch took effect Ebow has become the endgame bow of choice, mainly due to the high ranged attack bonus. I was curious to see if this change might change that again and see if we might be returning to some of the more traditional endgame bows.
That can't be answered until the next patch, but basically this thread is to see if someone remembers the specifics on the previous patch (at work and can't look on POL's site for old patch info) and for post patch use to put testing info in it.
Hopefully I'll get to xp before the patch so that I can get some numbers of what I was doing and then have something to compare them to. If there's anyone else who'd like to do the same, that would just be great. Especially if you not in your low 60's and can see if the change is more noticable at various levels.
Thanks
-Caspian

[Cometgreen]

Gah, I found it! http://www.playonline.com/pcd/update/ff11us/20050715Pm01B1/detail.html

You were correct in saying that it is the mob's level, not their defense: "In addition, the higher the monster’s level is with regard to the player, the less damage will be dealt with a ranged attack."

And as I said in the official thread, I would think that the Ebow would become even more powerful, as SE claims that the ratk from equipment and food would be more noticeable. Of course, I'm just guessing, as we all are.

I was going to get my rng to 60 this weekend, but I am going to somehow abstain and wait until the 15th. I'll get some xp before the patch and get some the night after the patch. This will probably turn out to be useless, as I may not even fight the same mobs, but I want to see if there is any huge change for myself, and as soon as possible. Plus I plan to take a ranger-break after hitting 60, and I don't want to wait a month to see the effects in an xp pt.

[Caspian]

Cool, and cool. I look forward to seeing the results.
I'll prolly have to do some runs with both meat and sushi just to see the dmg difference later on.
Its a major patch for RNG, I havent logged on in a day or two, but I'm sure Ebow has already skyrocketed just because.

[Lmnop]

They also claim that accuracy from gear/food will become more important. The way I interpreted the update notes is that currently, the game uses a % system or something... like "stand here and get -30% ranged accuracy" and obviously, that's not going to hit anything. Instead, maybe they'll put in static numbers -- perhaps in brackets dependent on user's level (as is, exp is figured differently depending on level brackets, and weapon skill damage runs through a value that decreases as level increases, so it seems rational that the number, while static, would be level based).

I just hope it makes it possible to play Ranger to its fullest w/out using distance plug-in. Just widening the "sweetspot" is enough for that (I can eyeball decently, but from what I hear from windower users, they're picking up on very subtle differences. There's no way I'm ever exactly right.)

[Aeni]

I just hope it makes it possible to play Ranger to its fullest w/out using distance plug-in. Just widening the "sweetspot" is enough for that (I can eyeball decently, but from what I hear from windower users, they're picking up on very subtle differences. There's no way I'm ever exactly right.)

Then why don't SE give RNGs a passive trait at level 15 called "Clear Vision." Basically it puts a distance meter that gives you a percentage value in the mob's target frame. The percentage values range from 0% (or at the foot of the monster) to 100% or the furthest you can actually use your range attack without encountering "You are too far away" error message.

[Vertabreaker]

They also claim that accuracy from gear/food will become more important. The way I interpreted the update notes is that currently, the game uses a % system or something... like "stand here and get -30% ranged accuracy" and obviously, that's not going to hit anything.

This is my first post on these boards so let me first start by saying, Hello!

The way the current system works is pretty simple. Your Rng Acc and Rng Atk are based on a calculation/% of how far from the mob you are. Basically what happens as the closer you get to the mob, the less dmg you will do but the more accurate your Rng Atks will be. The further away you get, the more dmg you do, but your Rng Acc will begin to suffer. The idea is to find what everyone refers to as "The Sweetspot". That spot being not too close and not too far so that you can maximize not only Rng Acc but your Dmg as well.

As far as the gear/food goes, with the way the current system goes, gear/food should've been top priority anyway. I've said this time and time again, you have to make sure you stay on top of your gear and make sure you can get the best of what's out there.

We'll just have to wait for the update and see what SE has in store for us, with any luck it's good news.


Take care.
~Verta.

[Omni]

As far as the gear/food goes, with the way the current system goes, gear/food should've been top priority anyway. I've said this time and time again, you have to make sure you stay on top of your gear and make sure you can get the best of what's out there.


Hello and welcome to our humble boards here at DiV.

I agree that you need to keep up with gear to a certain extent but to have the best of the best out there really detracts from the game i think.

Not everyone will be able to get an o-bow or e-bow. Not everyone will be able to have a osode or get cfg. I think the orginal nerf was a bit drastic.

We spend ~600 delay to deal 100-110 dmg to a mob while a war can do that per hand with their axes. Their axes are at MAX 50 base dmg, while rng base dmg can be around 100-120 dmg.

I hope this update fixes that. I dont care about tp gain, i think the old nerf was fair to kill our tp gain by limiting us from meleeing and using rng atk w/o any penalty. However, to have a weapon with less than half my base dmg deal equal dmg as my rng atk is a bit off base.

Now this is not to say that keeping up to date gear is not important, but having the best of whats out there shouldnt be the only way this game can be played.



and btw, whentf is the update supposed to be scheduled?

[Vertabreaker]

Not everyone will be able to get an o-bow or e-bow. Not everyone will be able to have a osode or get cfg. I think the orginal nerf was a bit drastic.


Yeah, I should've worded it a little differently. I should've said, get the best that's at your disposal. I think if someone's playing rng to just play it, gear isn't as important but if you're planning on end game...you need to make sure your gear is up to date.


As far as the update, all I know is that I heard that it's this month.

[Omni]

yea end game does matter a bit. my gear isnt spectacular but it's enough to be productive.

slug/sidewinder still blows. i dont see how 300TP slug can miss when using sharpshot and standing at optimal range. meh!

[Caspian]

I think update may happen next monday or tuesday. Its still ~mid month, and mondays and tuesdays seem to be SE's favorite day for updates.

I agree with what you're saying about having up to date gear, but the problem is, right now, atleast how SE worded is that you see lower than stated returns from your gear unless you're fighting EM and under. The description makes it sound as if the game takes into account our base ranged attack and accuracy, then adds gear and food (and I would think JA's, songs, rolls, etc.) and then takes a percentage of that determine damage done. It sounds like after the update it will take our base ranged attack and accuracy, take the proper percentage, then add in all food, gear, etc. (Note: these are very basic equations for how its done. I'm sure its all much more technical and involves pDif and other such things I haven't taken the time to understand.)
If this is how it currently works, and is accurate in how it will be after the update, then this is pretty huge. Food and JA's will make much more of a difference in damage and accuracy. Our equipment might actually do something know too. I know I hate missing repeatedly while wearing 40+ ranged accuracy on top of big accuracy up traits.

[VZX]

I still can't connect the idea of revamping back the ratt/racc in the head of SE and in the head of mine

From my perspective : the nerf is net damage/hit rate nerf, not the ranged attack (stat)/ranged accuracy(stat) nerf. SE, however, makes it sound the otherwise.

If you were 75 RNG before the last year patch and tried a bit testing lv 1 too weak mobs on starting city, you'll notice your damage from ranged attack, naked or not, will deal the same number everytime on those mobs.
That means your ratk/STR is very high relatively to mob defense so that striping all your ratk/STR gear will do nothing. and then the update comes

now if you shoot lv 1 mob from point blank, you'll get 35% damage reduction when using bow/xbow. if that's really a ratk nerf, we can imagine our ratk put into double digit range (around 30 or so) (lv 75 ranger should have at least 300 ratk) or about 70-80% ratk reduction.

now if you have 30 ratk on close range, you'll see 0 damage when shooting HNM like gods and kirin, but it never happens, 10~20 damage... possibly, but not single digit or zero.

ADD:
Regarding update details
[Changes to Distance Adjustments]
We plan to slightly widen the range in which players can deal out maximum damage using bows, crossbows, and other distance weapons, as well as ease the decrease in accuracy and attack power that comes the farther the player is from the target.
I think that line implies easing the damage/acc nerf at farther distance, not closer. So yeah... probably melee range shooting + axe swinging still be thought as mischievous behaviour

[Aeni]

I think that line implies easing the damage/acc nerf at farther distance, not closer. So yeah... probably melee range shooting + axe swinging still be thought as mischievous behaviour

I think it was an outrageous abuse from the start. SE is going in the right direction with this, just moving like an ancient mummy is all.

[Caspian]

I think it was an outrageous abuse from the start. SE is going in the right direction with this, just moving like an ancient mummy is all.
Do any of there moves in the right direction move at any speed other than that?
They're much more overzealous in nerfs than in boosts. I don't program games, so maybe thats just how its done.

[Vertabreaker]

Update is tomorrow....thank god. Decent sized one too.

/em opens beer. Here's to hopeing.

[Lmnop]

I wouldn't be surprised if the game currently subtracts/adds from the final number instead of pDif or other such values I haven't taken the time to understand (that's for you, Caspian). So it's basically the same as Physical damage taken -% gear that you have to shoot through to hit your target.

And I think they need to revamp /check. It'd be nice if, first off, RNG could get some idea of how their ranged attacks will match up. But it'd be nice if they just added a trait to RNG so that whenever they /check, they get an extra line of text that says something indicating the effect based on where they're standing.

The Elvaan seems Tough.
It appears to have low evasion, but high defense.
You have a moderate opening for a shot.

... or something like that. Basically a line that gives you an idea of where you are by using a few key terms (like Decent Challenge and IT for /check already) that players would learn the meanings of to pinpoint the best location. I think Fishing uses a similar system, doesn't it? Not in tandem with /check, but I mean a method of giving you an idea of fish's difficulty.

[Aeni]

... or something like that. Basically a line that gives you an idea of where you are by using a few key terms (like Decent Challenge and IT for /check already) that players would learn the meanings of to pinpoint the best location. I think Fishing uses a similar system, doesn't it? Not in tandem with /check, but I mean a method of giving you an idea of fish's difficulty.


Maybe something like...

Fafnir seems to be drunk with the blood of a thousand maidens.
It appears to have low defense, evasion, cannot avoid any range attacks and a penchant to puke Bio XXII in an area of effect.

But in seriousness, it will be commented on to the checker and not information about the monster.

Danius uses /check on a monster.

Monster appears to be incredibly tough. It has high evasion and high defense.

Danius has trouble keeping Monster in sight.
<nothing>
Danius has little trouble keeping Monster in sight.

[Caspian]

The more I read the update and take it at face value, the more it sounds like they're only decreasing the penalties on shooting too close or too far away by having equipment and other added effects make more of an impact. Sounds less and less like the base damage reduction we already notice at the "sweetspot" will be changed. Not trying to be a naysayer at all, and its highly likely its just a bad translation (wouldn't be the first time) or I'm just misinterpreting it alltogether. Regardless, any boost can't be bad (I hope) and I'm hoping this is really is something helpful. Maybe just not quite so helpful that the bandwagon decides to swing our way again.
I really hope I'm jumping the gun and just being pessimistic as a reflex reaction to most of SE's changes.

[Jarre]

I am hoping it will make an improvement as i have jsut reached lvl 14 with my ranger.

[Omni]

i think even if the change is as conservative as you feel it might be caspian, it's a change for the better in the end. having a slugshot miss because you are too close or too far is such a pos. im personally excited about this update. i finally pushed forward and finished the last 25000xp on my rng and i cant wait to see how this new update performs in merits and end game.

[Caspian]

i think even if the change is as conservative as you feel it might be caspian, it's a change for the better in the end. having a slugshot miss because you are too close or too far is such a pos. im personally excited about this update. i finally pushed forward and finished the last 25000xp on my rng and i cant wait to see how this new update performs in merits and end game.
Congratulations on RNG to 75, and you're right, and change for the better, no matter how slight, is a good thing. I'm just trying to not get myself too excited or optimistic about it, incase its not a huge change. Oh well, only a few more hours and we'll know one way or the other.

[Omni]

i'm just hoping that this will give us more chances to eat meat. sushi gets boring.

i ate meat last night when in caedarva mire. had a brd too. strapped on some str gear and was able to hit 1400 slugs on imps when eating food. the highest i got with sole sushi was ~1000. i really hope it will allow us to eat meat with out tanking out rng acc. even with ~50 rng acc, i have acc issues when eating meat on VT/IT mobs.

[Raydeus]

I have a question, from what I've read about the RNG adjustment (I really hate that word now :wasted: ) the damage would get a 10% penalty or so if you are too close to the mob. It doesn't seem to be too bad to me, I'd just melee and then run away when I was ready to use my WS if I wanted it to do full damage.

The thing is I never see RNGs doing that (meleeing) anymore so there has to be something else I don't see about it since meleeing should compensate for the damage reduction on Ranged attacks.

Maybe Acc gets a greater hit than damage, or what's the real issue here besides the little reduction in damage/acc, is the penalty much greater than I think?

[Omni]

you are talking about the first adjustment right? like a year ago right?

well, the dmg reduction is more than 10% i can tell you that AND accuracy is shot to shit when you try to melee. The only weapon that can sorta get away with it is gun, since gun sweetspot is the closest to the mob. xbow and especially bow take a big acc cut as well as their dmg.

just an example. last night, using o-bow + holy bolts, i was hitting imps for ~140 dmg a shot from optimal range. if i fired from up close, my dmg would drop to ~90. it makes a big difference where you stand.

this update will probably make it less strict in terms of distance to producing the same dmg/acc as if you were to stand in the sweetspot. it also looks like that it will make food have a more profound effect too.

[Raydeus]

That explains it, I hope this update really improves the situation because that much of a penalty sucks.

[Caspian]

35% cut in damage to bow and x-bow from melee range.
And I do love getting to eat atk food. Brd's or Cor's in party are may favorite. It should also help now that equipment also isn't given a percent decrease. Just base, all others are added after the adjustment. So our 40+ r. acc. we already have in gear will actually give us 40+ r. acc.

[Lmnop]

Sorry Caspian, I believe this /ra update isn't at all intended to make RNG more potent. You won't see pre-nerf numbers ever again. This update looks to be more oriented at balancing Rng performance so it's not so BS every time you hit Control D. I was gonna say more, but it's just be repeating the update details.

- gear will mean something
- Blue Mage Headbutt won't knock the mob out of the sweetspot

[Caspian]

Sorry Caspian, I believe this /ra update isn't at all intended to make RNG more potent. You won't see pre-nerf numbers ever again. This update looks to be more oriented at balancing Rng performance so it's not so BS every time you hit Control D. I was gonna say more, but it's just be repeating the update details.
- gear will mean something
- Blue Mage Headbutt won't knock the mob out of the sweetspot
Yeah, what I'm betting on. Know for sure here in a bit, d/l'ing as we speak.